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Thread: Are Christians Delusional?

  1. #91
    Banned tantone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rwest
    If I told you today 'I saw the son of God' Would you believe it? What if it were true? Would my children? What about those who have a similiar belief? I would guess your instints would be to prove me wrong.
    But the burden of proof wouldn't be on me...it would be on you. To make a ridiculous claim that is so far off from the usual, one must be able to prove it in some way if they expect others to believe it. In todays skeptical society--made skeptical because of people like David Koresh (how do we know that he wasn't the messiah?)--we're not going to believe someone who makes an outlandish claim such as that. We're likely to assume that you were on drugs and hallucinating or something, or that they just want attention. Kind of like those people who worship the likeness of the virgin mary in a piece of toast.

    In the case of Christianity, rather than offer proof, they offered the idea that if you didn't believe as they did, you would be subject to everlasting damnation. So, instead of people believing because they really, truly believed, they did so out of fear. Over time, as these people reproduced, they passed on these beliefs as fact to their children who, in turn, did the same.

    As I said earlier most religious beliefs are passed down thru stories. The Bible itself is just a collection of stories put to paper. And still many archeaologist use it for refference.
    But stories themselves aren't religious. The fact that Jesus existed isn't the basis for the Christian religion. The Jews believe that Jesus existed too, but they're not Christian. Why? Because it's the idea that Jesus was not just a man, but rather divine, placed on earth by God with mystical powers, that is the fundamental basis for the Christian religion.

    Archaeologists are scientists, always looking for evidence. They don't just find a nice spot in the middle east, stand over it, and claim it was the ancient site of a burial. They have to find some evidence for that. Even words in a book aren't enough for them. They'll dig until they find corroboration. The bible, while not always very accurate and quite contradictory overall (it's a 31 Flavors--there's something for everyone), has quite a bit of archaeology in it. Those aren't the parts in contention however. The conclusion that they were divinely inspired, however, is. That's the unusual claim that has the burden of proof.

    That evidence--the divine--is what is extremely hard to swallow without completely setting aside ALL rational thought and reason. There are several books out there that claim to use rational thought and reason to prove Jesus was who he said he was. But the problem with the books of this type that I've read (and I've read a few because this is such an interesting topic), is that they bootstrap; they use religious ideas to reinforce their logic to prove their religion. It doesn't work that way.
    Last edited by tantone; 06-15-2007 at 11:57 AM.

  2. #92
    Ultimate Member crossedup's Avatar
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    Christian is to broad a term anymore, covering to many branches. True christians, by their original mandate, were to lead by example not dictation. Much of that has been lost and the whole term suffers as a result. I am supposed to make you want to come up to me and ask me why I the way I am, not me to come to you and tell you what a good person I am. Two totally different causes and effects.

    There is no way to make one person believe the same things you do except by making them want to believe, as I just mentioned. It is ultimately each own persons choice. I do believe and I do remember the feeling before and after and that is really the only way you know.

    The bible says for believers to congregate with other believers, that is the purpose of church. Sadly in todays world, most churches are not full of fellow believers, at least not the ones I have attended. They are mostly a social affair and a place to stir up the trouble you are talking about.

    I was raised like you ( tantone ) in a baptist church and a baptist school and have had much the same soul searching you are having or have had. I have drawn my own conclusions and am comfortable with them through the peace they have brought and several real world examples solidifying my beliefs. None of these will convince anyone else so I will keep them to myself.

    As I have posted before, those of us that believe need no proof. Those of you that dont will never have enough. Quite simple.

    My $.02

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  3. #93
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    And so the ranting goes on.

    Are you so intent on disproving and convincing another that you can't see I've posted in favor of your opinion?

    I am christian because it is the faith I've chosen to follow. I'm not so closed minded as to not see and understand where you are coming from, but I still choose to believe in my faith. While you make valid arguments, and there are many more, It is still my choice. Why must you insist on convincing me otherwise? You asked for an open minded conversation on the basis of belief, yet you yourself are so closed to the idea of a fraction of possibility that another may be right, that you still insist on a persuasive attitude.

    Yes, you are frustrated by the many evangerlists that insist they are right and one should follow their ways. How are you any different?

    I choose to follow the christian belief, but it's not exactly as I see it. Personally I feel what ever your belief is... it is the grand scheme of our maker. Science and facts may not ever prove or disprove any hypothesis be it based on fact or faith.

    My personal belief is that good will triumph over evil. None of us will really know untill we die. It really doesn't matter who was right if anyone at all. I just hope evil doesn't win, if so... I'm screwed. Even if all facts end up leading to a total of nothing, I've lost nothing.

    On the other hand, should I choose not to belive in anything, and I'm wrong.... God help us all. Please pray for our sinners.

    We are all free to make a choice. I see you choose to be a part of the problem, as is every other propagandist. I do agree with you on that point, y'all should leave each other alone. Or you could just ignore each other.
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  4. #94
    Registered User mireland's Avatar
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    I like cake. What does god have to say about THAT?

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by tantone
    But the burden of proof wouldn't be on me...it would be on you. To make a ridiculous claim that is so far off from the usual, one must be able to prove it in some way if they expect others to believe it. In todays skeptical society--made skeptical because of people like David Koresh (how do we know that he wasn't the messiah?)--we're not going to believe someone who makes an outlandish claim such as that. We're likely to assume that you were on drugs and hallucinating or something, or that they just want attention. Kind of like those people who worship the likeness of the virgin mary in a piece of toast.

    In the case of Christianity, rather than offer proof, they offered the idea that if you didn't believe as they did, you would be subject to everlasting damnation. So, instead of people believing because they really, truly believed, they did so out of fear. Over time, as these people reproduced, they passed on these beliefs as fact to their children who, in turn, did the same.

    But stories themselves aren't religious. The fact that Jesus existed isn't the basis for the Christian religion. The Jews believe that Jesus existed too, but they're not Christian. Why? Because it's the idea that Jesus was not just a man, but rather divine, placed on earth by God with mystical powers, that is the fundamental basis for the Christian religion.

    Archaeologists are scientists, always looking for evidence. They don't just find a nice spot in the middle east, stand over it, and claim it was the ancient site of a burial. They have to find some evidence for that. Even words in a book aren't enough for them. They'll dig until they find corroboration. The bible, while not always very accurate and quite contradictory overall (it's a 31 Flavors--there's something for everyone), has quite a bit of archaeology in it. Those aren't the parts in contention however. The conclusion that they were divinely inspired, however, is. That's the unusual claim that has the burden of proof.

    That evidence--the divine--is what is extremely hard to swallow without completely setting aside ALL rational thought and reason. There are several books out there that claim to use rational thought and reason to prove Jesus was who he said he was. But the problem with the books of this type that I've read (and I've read a few because this is such an interesting topic), is that they bootstrap; they use religious ideas to reinforce their logic to prove their religion. It doesn't work that way.
    How do you figure that? He makes a claim you make a different claim. Why is the burden of proof, necessarily upon him?

  6. #96
    Ultimate Member herosrest's Avatar
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    Why would God keep himself secret.
    Religion is a management tool adapted to the whim of its administrators.
    lt is riddled with the schisms of those instigating it's form and the manipulations of those who control it. lt is a contrivance. A very worthwhile one to its flock but mightily abused and manipulated by those who drive it and seek its authority. Religion is a money making machine. Money lenders were despised by Jesus - no on seems to be teaching that lesson today.
    During deep sleep IT came to me and the future of processing is clear.
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  7. #97
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    What religion is or isn't is determined entirely by whose hands it's in. It actually can serve a positive function, although not often. It can serve as a moral behavioral blueprint to keep those in line who haven't figured out for themselves why they should behave in a certain way.

    Unfortunately, the purpose it serves most of the time is utterly benign, and far too often, it's nothing more than an ego maintenance mechanism. Humans love to be right, and there is no trump card that tops God. More atrocities have been committed in the name of God than any other single human motivation I can think of, including greed.

  8. #98
    Ultimate Member Baddog's Avatar
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    Yesterday a very special friend of mine died from a very fast acting cancer.
    It is really bothering me. She was 38 years old, a ray of sunshine to everyone around her and loved by all. It just is not right. Things like this take my belief in god away.
    Improvise - Adapt - Overcome
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  9. #99
    Ultimate Member herosrest's Avatar
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    It's the reality effect. Feel 4 ya
    During deep sleep IT came to me and the future of processing is clear.
    Future processors will primarily be digital tuning radios acting as grid computing nodes.
    Voila. See ya in hell.
    PROCESSING

  10. #100
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    Baddog,

    The gloves are off. That is sad. I hope for the best, for you and yours.

    Robert
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  11. #101
    Junior Member drewster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by herosrest
    Why would God keep himself secret.
    Religion is a management tool adapted to the whim of its administrators.
    lt is riddled with the schisms of those instigating it's form and the manipulations of those who control it. lt is a contrivance. A very worthwhile one to its flock but mightily abused and manipulated by those who drive it and seek its authority. Religion is a money making machine. Money lenders were despised by Jesus - no on seems to be teaching that lesson today.
    My God it's a miracle !!! Hero is making sense !!! The definitive proof there is a God !!

  12. #102
    Ultimate Member herosrest's Avatar
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    Hi Drewster. Hows yaz doooin.

    Wot appen yor post conut thingy wingy -

    drewster
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    During deep sleep IT came to me and the future of processing is clear.
    Future processors will primarily be digital tuning radios acting as grid computing nodes.
    Voila. See ya in hell.
    PROCESSING

  13. #103
    Junior Member drewster's Avatar
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    The fing is, I don't like to admit it, but I know even less about comps than J.M. So I mainly post in the community.

  14. #104
    Ultimate Member herosrest's Avatar
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    My bad.
    During deep sleep IT came to me and the future of processing is clear.
    Future processors will primarily be digital tuning radios acting as grid computing nodes.
    Voila. See ya in hell.
    PROCESSING

  15. #105
    Complete & Utter Member j.m@talk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drewster
    The fing is, I don't like to admit it, but I know even less about comps than J.M. So I mainly post in the community.
    OMFG .......


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