Understanding the New Threat

[herosrest]

Originally posted by Vampiel


Now what does this demonstrate?

What makes Turkey unique in the Muslim world?

Possibly the fact that it conquered half of Europe and held it for several hundred years.

[AdamST]

I think you need to stop saying what people tell you, and read the Qur'an. Becasaue you realy do not know what you are talking about.

"Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits. God does not love transgressors." (Quran 2:190)

"If they seek peace, then seek you peace. And trust in God for He is the One that heareth and knoweth all things." (Quran 8:61)

[17:33] Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law)

Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;

[2:190-192] And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque (in Makkah) until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the reward of the unbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

"One who kills a non-Muslim person under protection (Arabic: dhimmi) will not even smell the fragrance of Paradise."

"jihad means to struggle and make an effort in any activity done for the sake of God. In fact, in Islam, the greatest jihad is regarded as the struggle of the inner self. The prophet is reported to have said "the greatest jihad is against the self".

[zybch]

Originally posted by Johnny Fist
Lets try not to turn this into a personal thing. The point being debated here isn't if we should call it an article or the truth. The point being debated is whether or not these third world lunatics should be compared to a first world empire well within their means to enslave at least all of Europe. I see no connection between the workings of these bottom feeders and the way that the Nazis carried out their onslaught against Europe.

The only major industrialized nation that seems to be echoing the nazi invasion of poland etc seems to be the US. After all, wasn't that what has happened in Iraq?
Afghanistan was justifiable self defence which the majority of people, myself included, agreed with. But Iraq?
Bush and his cronies/puppet masters didn't even have the intestinal fortitude to be honest about why they wanted to illegally invade Iraq.
Hitler was at least honest with his reasons. They may have been flawed ones, but Hitler was honest about them and prior to WWII he turned Germany around. The only thing that bush has does for the US is to undermine its people and their rights, and destroy the US's world reputation for the sake of his (and his handlers) pockets.

[Vampiel]

However at a higher level, the thing feared by those in the halls of power is not your Islamic terrorist, but Islam itself and its part in America's "colonial decline" if you will. Islam is a huge threat to American power, big business etc etc. because of its similarities with American culture, both are predominantly conservatice (to the point of ridiculousness), well financed and driven by subservience to religious rhetoric. Indeed, it's bizarre to think of Islam and America as opposed to one another, as on paper they culturally mirror each other so well.

How is Islam itself the threat feared by Colin Powell, Bush, and Rumsfeld? If that were the case wouldnt we just carpet bomb their cities?

The problem America has with Islam is that it can't "kill" it through state sponsored murder, torture and terror as it used 50 years ago in the battle against Communism, simply because its so hard to define who the enemy is. Wheras in the past Communism was tied distinctly to individual nation states, Islam is a worldwide phenomena.

Allready adresssed that.

When you fight a war you are not fighting a country, you are fighting each others ideals. Ideals do not have boundries. Do you think Hitler is dead? Do you think Hitler only had the Axis powers as an ally? Hitler the man is dead, and the Axis powers were not his only allies, they still live among us to this day, as does Hitler through his ideals. The only thing you can do is kill as many people as possible with that ideal when it becomes large enough to threat to your ideals, which they did threaten our national security as demonstrated on 9/11 and the potential to demonstrate even more with the weapons available today.

The thing America has to watch out for is the act of "tying everyone with the same brush" as they appear to be doing, presenting what is a faith (relaively) centred around the idea of peace (when compared to Christianity at least - which in its literal sense is one of the most hateful and ignorant ideologies ever to exist) as a recipie of evil. As such, you risk turning a minority (and it is a minority...for the tiem being) of fanatics and nutters, into a majority, by alienating and persecuting every Muslim in the world.

The war against terrorism is not about surgical strikes onto a terrorist training camp or intelligence to were terrorists are hiding and what there next move will be.

This has been the policy for a very long time, and what most people dont realize is they have to step back and look at the real problem.

Lets face it :

The majority of governments in the middle east are terrorist training camps

The only way to stop terrorism in its tracks is to encourage reform in the governments that breed it, which most steadyfastly resist.

So our only option is force and/or more pressure.

Dont be fooled, police actions, intelligence, and surgical strikes do not defeat terrorism, it only covers up the real problem.

Personally, i dont care much for the idea of Islam taking over the world, given my largely secular outlook and view that organised religion has done nothig but hamper the development of the human-race.

Im an Athiest so I agree with you there. Though I wouldnt say it that is the only thing religion does.

[Vampiel]

AdamST would you like to begin a quote contest, I am well informed on Islamic beliefs, I just dont talk out of my but like some people. The fact is there are two versions of Islam, one in which calls for Jihad to overthrow governments for Islam to dominate the world. The other calls for dare I say 'peacefull conversion' to Islam. Either way it calls for the entire world to be converted into Islam.

Tabari IX:69 “Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us.”

Tabari VIII:141 “The battle cry of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah that night was: ‘Kill! Kill! Kill!’”

Bukhari:V5B59N512 “The Prophet had their men killed, their woman and children taken captive.”

Ishaq:489 “Do the bastards think that we are not their equal in fighting? We are men who think that there is no shame in killing.”

Qur’an 2:191 “And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.”

Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”

Bukhari:V4B52N270 “Allah’s Messenger said, ‘Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.’ Maslama got up saying, ‘Would you like me to kill him?’ The Prophet proclaimed, ‘Yes.’ Maslama said, ‘Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.’ Muhammad said, ‘You may do so.’”

[Vampiel]

Originally posted by herosrest
Possibly the fact that it conquered half of Europe and held it for several hundred years.

What does that have anything to do with not supporting Bin Laden?

[Johnny Fist]

Originally posted by zybch

Hitler was at least honest with his reasons. They may have been flawed ones, but Hitler was honest about them and prior to WWII he turned Germany around.

Now thats funny.

[Vampiel]

Why is it that Pakistan, Jordon, and Morocco support Bin Laden, but Turkey doesnt?

Could it be that Wahhabism indoctrination is virtually non-existent in Turkey?

[werz]

turkey has been absorbed into the EU giving them access to the materialism of the west and the ability to look for different goals as we do,
Osama is the most popular name for muslim male children these days.

[werz]

Whilst trying to understand this threat, why dont you watch the movie, 'THE CORPORATION' directed by a couple of guys from your favorite country, Canada, and see where this threat is coming from. No doubt you wont believe any of it, as it shows the Bush power base and there morals.