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  1. #1
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    wholly unamerican...

    Sorry it's been a while since i posted with you guys - kinda missin those days. Anyway, in the spirit of "those days" i ran across this article that just grated on me. I'm going to post a link to the article in this post, and then in 2 subsequent replies, i will post the transcription of the article, and my response i emailed to the author, and everyone at slate that i could find an email for.

    Here's the link to the article:

    article at slate.msn.com

    if you feel like i do in this matter, please show your support here, and email this guy letting him know, at

    mailto:ballotbox@slate.com

    his name is jacob weisberg. Thanks.

    Scott
    a.k.a.: cy

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    as promised

    *** ORIGINAL MESSAGE EDITED OUT ***
    Sorry, but it's a violation of other sites' copyrights to reproduce their articles in their entirety. Please let the link to http://slate.msn.com/?id=2060408 suffice.

  3. #3
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    my response

    here's the email i replied with. Again, if you find yourself agreeing, please email that creep and let him know.

    For those of you I'm carbon copying this to, this is in response to the article posted by Jacob Weisberg at http://slate.msn.com/?id=2060408.

    How dare you. That's all i can think after reading your grossly slighted article entitled "How Bush's Shallowness Makes Him a Good War President." What a lack of tribute to a man in his position. I don't really care what you think, politically, or if you think at all before you publish, but such backhanded compliments as were evidenced in that self-serving, trite "article" are what make you that much less of a journalist, and that much more of a yes-man. How dare you. That man is the leader of the nation - arguably the greatest nation in the world in many aspects. How dare you deride him like that. Pardon me for reducing myself to emphasis through profanity, but you are just ****ing immature. And in the time of our nation's need, how can you sleep at night printing trash like this under the guise of truth? People like you have been trying to pin the downturned ecnonmy on the Bush presidency ever since the day he took office, even though the economy had been sliding ever since January of the previous year. That was an inhereited problem. Admit it.

    President Bush is more than a capable wartime leader - he's a capable leader, period. Arguably unelected? Why did you even have to open that can of worms. You'd be singing a different tune if Gore were in office right now, I guarantee it. That was a man who's character allowed him to conscientiously argue that every vote should be counted - except the ones that were against him, of course (such as the overseas votes) 'nuff said about that. Do everyone a favor, and don't ever bring that up again. Ignorance is already rampant enough in this world without you adding to it. Ignorance such as governments developing biological weapons. That, my friend, is a crime against humanity. We spent billions and billions of dollars, and lost countless lives to rid the world of small pox. It was eradicated. Entirely eradicated - nobody was in any danger from contracting smallpox ever again - until somebody had the audacity to engineer a more deadly strain of it, and decide to pack it away as a weapon. And ignorance of attacks on innocents, ignorance of the masses that applaud this - and you sit behind the desk with the freedom paid for by the blood of our ancestors, and deride the man who stands up and says "Enough!" ??? How Dare you? A man who united a nation in tragedy -nay, the entire world to rally behind the cause of freedom from this hidden enemy with the style and grace reminiscent of John F. Kennedy's famous speech dedicating this country to putting a man on the moon and returning him safely. Get some perspective. How shallow you are, to make any kind of attack on our president, especially in a time such as this. I understand that you have a right to say what you did, and a right to free speech, but these rights were paid for with the blood of men you could never live up to. And there's a saying in my industry - just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

    Where you get the nerve to make our president out to be some kind of glory hound is beyond me. You seem to me to be the kind of person who would have something bad to say about him regardless of what he did or didn't do. For instance, if his Treasury Secretary had made the announcement, you'd likely be commenting now about our fine president's lack of representation to the people, or his cowardice in facing the media or something else as equally nonsensical as most of the ramblings in your article.

    Here are a few of my favorite comments you made, and i say favorite because they hilite your ignorance effectively;

    "Bush has been a largely effective wartime president—much more so than we had any reason to expect."

    "What explains Bush's unexpected feat? "

    "Bush continues to exhibit the same lack of curiosity, thoughtfulness, and engagement with ideas that made him a C student. Nuance, complexity, subtlety, and contradiction are not part of the mental universe he inhabits. And curiously enough, it is these very qualities of mind—or lack thereof—that seem to be making him such a good war president. "

    "If so, he's smarter than we thought."

    "In wartime, certain qualities sometimes associated with high intelligence—fascination with detail, a tendency to self-reliance, an awareness of ambiguity—become greater obstacles to effective leadership. And the contrary qualities often associated with mediocre intelligence—oversimplification, an eagerness to delegate authority, moral certainty—can be pronounced advantages. In Bush's case, it is the latter set of qualities that seems to be doing the trick. Being smart clearly doesn't stop someone from being a great president, either in peace or in war. "

    If that's the best you can do for a compliment, do the world a favor and don't speak.

    and you also managed to slip in a few ex-presidents to deride, such as president Reagan, totally disregarding anything he acheived as president, only slightly allowing for the possibility that he may have been "clandestinely intellectual" How about Trickle-down economics?

    on with your Bush derisions...

    "Bush's intellectual limitations also appear to be serving him well in terms of his less public role as manager of the war effort. "

    "The president makes the big decisions, sets broad goals, and is relentless about pursuing them. He leaves the "how" questions to his highly competent team of military and foreign policy advisers. To function effectively in this way, a president must delegate to competent subordinates. " Hello... that's what a president is for, and that's why he has these advisors - because nobody knows everything. I'm sorry - my mistake. That is of course, except for you.

    Oh, and here's a great one!

    "Despite Bush's bogus complaints about Clinton hollowing out the military, the Pentagon was entirely fight-ready."

    Bogus complaints? Do you realize what effect the drawdowns had? It primed sources like Bin Laden for the opportunity of attack. He certainly must have felt some semblence of security in the knowledge that our forces were diminished. I'm not saying the attacks wouldn't have occurred, but a diminished military certainly had an impact.

    When someone as a part of our nation speaks out publically against the leader of our nation, they make the United States look bad. Not our president, but our public. People across the world shake their heads in disbelief at how anyone can speak of their leadership in such terms. It makes us look like ungrateful children. People like you end up representing the nation with your thoughtless slandering, aimed at getting more attention, at the cost of the respect of other nations. Take a moment and look at it from their point of view. As much as i disliked what the Clintons did to the sanctity of the presidency (let alone the sanctity of marriage) it was and is my belief that none of that should have been taken to the public eye. The media did more harm to our nation and the reputation of it's people than President Clinton ever did by having "inappropriate relationships"

    And i read the article linked in Bush's poor cabinet choices costing him - regarding Mr. Ashcroft. Pardon me, sir, but the man has a ****ing point. There are people out there trying to kill us. He does have quite a bit of leeway with that fact. So please, next time think before you write. Is what you're writing helpful, or hurtful? How does it reflect on this nation? Are you informing the people, or slandering and spreading ignorance?

    I want you to post this email with an apology to the people of the United States, and their President. A nation is only as strong as it's weakest link, and you, sir, are the weakest link. Good bye.

    Sincerely,
    Scott B.

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    Here's my repsonse, via email

    "Re: How Bush's shallowness makes him a good war president.

    So, near as I can figure..cutting through the chaff, what you are
    saying is......you've underestimated President Bush...in ALL aspects......again !

    And you get paid for writing this stuff ?

    BTW....the U.S.A. has admitted they bombed an "asprin"
    factory in Sudan, sent an apology, and
    already has made a partial reimbursement. Where have you been ?

    looks like you need a refresher course in research. "

  5. #5
    Member Lycia's Avatar
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    I said this just after Sept 11th and I say it again, Bush is still the same bumbling, crackhead fool he was then. The only thing that's changed is that he has some serious Puppet Masters pulling the strings. I will say this, he is a pretty slick wartime leader, as long as he sticks to what people feed him and not try to think.

    Before I get flamed, I love America, I love everything about it, even the crazy political system that allows crackheads and adulters (REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATIC) to become elected officials. Gives the crackheads living on the street something to live for!!
    Tiger, tiger, burning bright,
    In the forest of the night,
    What immortal hand or eye
    Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

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    wholly unamerican...


    When someone as a part of our nation speaks out publically against the leader of our nation, they make the United States look bad.


    I think you're missing the point. It's actually very American! It doesn't make our nation look bad.....it makes it look good. Hundreds of millions of people around the world wish they could do the same. I guarantee you people around the world aren't shaking their heads in disbelief. It doesn't make us look like ungrateful children....it makes us look like a democracy. A democracy where our leaders are here to serve us and not the other way around.

    Try being a Chinese citizen and criticizing the Chinese government or an Iraqi criticizing Saddam Hussein, and so on and so on!



    I want you to post this email with an apology to the people of the United States, and their President. A nation is only as strong as it's weakest link, and you, sir, are the weakest link. Good bye.


    As a citizen of the United States, I don't need him to apologize to me for expressing his opinion and exercising his First Amendment rights!
    Last edited by mpc2; 01-09-2002 at 02:43 AM.

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    **** STRAIGHT!!!... MPC2
    Ritalin Kid

  8. #8
    Member Lycia's Avatar
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    Originally posted by mpc2
    wholly unamerican...


    When someone as a part of our nation speaks out publically against the leader of our nation, they make the United States look bad.


    I think you're missing the point. It's actually very American! It doesn't make our nation look bad.....it makes it look good. Hundreds of millions of people around the world wish they could do the same. I guarantee you people around the world aren't shaking their heads in disbelief. It doesn't make us look like ungrateful children....it makes us look like a democracy. A democracy where are leaders are here to serve us and not the other way around.

    Try being a Chinese citizen and criticizing the Chinese government or an Iraqi criticizing Saddam Hussein, and so on and so on!



    I want you to post this email with an apology to the people of the United States, and their President. A nation is only as strong as it's weakest link, and you, sir, are the weakest link. Good bye.



    As a citizen of the United States, I don't need him to apologize to me for expressing his opinion and exercising his First Amendment rights!
    I wish I could have said it this eloquently. **** fine reply.
    Tiger, tiger, burning bright,
    In the forest of the night,
    What immortal hand or eye
    Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

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    an open mind

    it's not at all about that. It's entirely about america being made out to be spoiled brats.

    When citizens of arguably the greatest nation in the world whine about their leadership being this and that, how do you think that makes people in other countries feel, who have actual legitimate problems. To them, we take our freedom for granted. I stand entirely behind my original post and point. Imagine ethiopian children watching american children crying that they can't have desert until they finish their dinners. Doesn't that strike you as ungrateful? The same holds true for those who whine about things our president is doing when there is nothing at all wrong with him or what he's doing - especially when he's being such a great example in extremely trying times. Think about it.

    Yes the First Amendment gives us the right to free speech. It doesn't govern what comes out of your mouth, that's up to the individual to govern. Unfortunatley, many seem to speak before they think, if they end up thinking at all. To slander a man in our president's position shows nothing but a lack of thought, consideration, insight, and patriotism. Does being a good public speaker make a man more fit to run a country? Or being less of a public speaker lessen his ability to lead a nation in crisis? I think recent events have proved all naysayers wrong in that regard. I thank God we didn't have a less able president who only looked good on camera when those horrific acts occurred.

    As i said earlier, those rights to speak your mind were paid for with the blood of patriots. Yes, patriots who spoke out against their leaders, but get some perspective. Their rulers denied them rights, taxed them without representation, made no responsibilities to their people, punished them for their religious beliefs, and the list goes on. Now, what has president Bush done to you?

    We have the right to free speech. We have the responsibility to control that speech. It's like the power of having a gun, and the responsibility to know when to use it - or more importantly, when not to - or what to use it for. Their is a saying in my line of work - just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

    All i ask is that people - especially people who pose as journalists (journalism is about reporting, not about opinion) show respect to the people leading our country - especially in difficult times. Can you at all appreciate his position? Do you think you could do better? How would you like to be in the public eye like that - your every move criticized at every moment - a mispoken word becoming the central gag of the late show - or worse yet, drawing ridicule for decision you made between two difficult choices. Do you think you are immune to ridicule? Is that fair? Is it right? Fair and right are things in our immediate control, and i suggest we as a nation embrace and promote these ideals.

    Another thing, all presidents have cabinets that they rely on, for the simple fact that nobody can either know or do everything, let alone both. Does calling the president a moron make the world a better place? Or does it somehow make you feel superior and important? Are you citing specific examples that bring you to this conclusion, or merely parroting hype from some random liberal source with blinders on to the outside world, seeking only a way to get their next candidate elected to further their own personal ends, regardless of the actions, effieciency, condition, or effectiveness of the current administration. It's a sad state of affairs when the only weapon they can muster is childish name-calling - although it speaks volumes on the quality of the president, to the contrary of the message they wish would pervade. If this is the only viable way they have of making their candidate to be look good - to smear the competition with slanderous labels. This is the way of politics. It's self serving at the cost of the innocent.

    I liked your reply mpc2, by the way, even though i completely disagree with it, as i think I've made very clear. I'd like to hear what you think about this one. You as well, Lycia

    i'd like to think this may have had some impact on you - made you think... if you still disagree with me - I'd love to know why...
    Last edited by cyphen; 01-07-2002 at 11:00 PM.

  10. #10
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    Re: an open mind

    [QUOTE
    it's not at all about that. It's entirely about america being made out to be spoiled brats.

    When citizens of arguably the greatest nation in the world whine about their leadership being this and that, how do you think that makes people in other countries feel, who have actual legitimate problems. To them, we take our freedom for granted. I stand entirely behind my original post and point. Imagine ethiopian children watching american children crying that they can't have desert until they finish their dinners. Doesn't that strike you as ungrateful? The same holds true for those who whine about things our president is doing when there is nothing at all wrong with him or what he's doing - especially when he's being such a great example in extremely trying times. Think about it.
    [/QUOTE]

    So none of the problems we *Whine* about are ligitimate because we are not a third world country? See the problem is, you are blinded by the conservative propaganda that this is some how a new Bushy compared to the old crackhead we all know and love. As I stated before the only thing that's changed about him is he saying things exactly as they have been prepared for him. An example would be Gerald Ford, he has a similar situation where suddenly he's seen as a Strong leader..Is he really changed and learned to put one foot in front of the other without tripping? More than likely he'd have people making sure he didn't fall.

    Yes the First Amendment gives us the right to free speech. It doesn't govern what comes out of your mouth, that's up to the individual to govern. Unfortunatley, many seem to speak before they think, if they end up thinking at all. To slander a man in our president's position shows nothing but a lack of thought, consideration, insight, and patriotism. Does being a good public speaker make a man more fit to run a country? Or being less of a public speaker lessen his ability to lead a nation in crisis? I think recent events have proved all naysayers wrong in that regard. I thank God we didn't have a less able president who only looked good on camera when those horrific acts occurred.
    LOL that is exactly what we have, a president who appears well in front of the camera. You can't honestly beleive that there weren't a multitude of yes men and Image consultants and PR people drooling over Spet 11 events? I know it sounds sick but it happens. An event where the bumbling idiot can come out looking good if he just says the right things!! As far as me doing a better job, hell yeah I could do at least an equal job, if not better, as long as I had the same people make me look as good as they did him!!


    As i said earlier, those rights to speak your mind were paid for with the blood of patriots. Yes, patriots who spoke out against their leaders, but get some perspective. Their rulers denied them rights, taxed them without representation, made no responsibilities to their people, punished them for their religious beliefs, and the list goes on. Now, what has president Bush done to you?
    Yeah, those patriots fought for my right to say whatever the hell I want against whomever I want, within reason. Obviously I couldn't accuse the president of Adultery without some shred of proof, however I can call him a crackhead. And this freedom of speech, and ability to speak out against our leaders, makes us not Cuba, Afghanistan, China, etc.

    We have the right to free speech. We have the responsibility to control that speech. It's like the power of having a gun, and the responsibility to know when to use it - or more importantly, when not to - or what to use it for. Their is a saying in my line of work - just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

    All i ask is that people - especially people who pose as journalists (journalism is about reporting, not about opinion) show respect to the people leading our country - especially in difficult times. Can you at all appreciate his position? Do you think you could do better? How would you like to be in the public eye like that - your every move criticized at every moment - a mispoken word becoming the central gag of the late show - or worse yet, drawing ridicule for decision you made between two difficult choices. Do you think you are immune to ridicule? Is that fair? Is it right? Fair and right are things in our immediate control, and i suggest we as a nation embrace and promote these ideals.
    You're kidding right? So now every newspaper is suposed to kiss Bushy's asp becuase he says the right thing? Get a grip on reality. Journalist are supposed to report the news. The article of which you originaly wrote about wasn't a news report, it was an opinion, of which the writer is able to express because of the nation he lives in. You writing to him asking for an aopolgy is a joke. Let me make an example. There is a website that I enjoy, The Misanthropic *****. She has some pretty strong ideas about teen mothers, I wont go into details here-you can go to the webiste and read for yourself. Anyway, a ton of people write to her saying that she shouldn't be allowed to have her site up becasue of her opinions. And to be honest I don't agree with a few of them, however, I think she has an incredibly sharp wit. The point is, just becuase we don't agree with another's opinions doesn't mean they don't have the right to express them any way they see fit. Get over yourself.

    Another thing, all presidents have cabinets that they rely on, for the simple fact that nobody can either know or do everything, let alone both. Does calling the president a moron make the world a better place? Or does it somehow make you feel superior and important? Are you citing specific examples that bring you to this conclusion, or merely parroting hype from some random liberal source with blinders on to the outside world, seeking only a way to get their next candidate elected to further their own personal ends, regardless of the actions, effieciency, condition, or effectiveness of the current administration. It's a sad state of affairs when the only weapon they can muster is childish name-calling - although it speaks volumes on the quality of the president, to the contrary of the message they wish would pervade. If this is the only viable way they have of making their candidate to be look good - to smear the competition with slanderous labels. This is the way of politics. It's self serving at the cost of the innocent.

    Sounds like you need to take off the blinders. Every politician, wether republican or democrat has slandered their opponents. You can't honestly tell me you didn't do the same to Clinton. And if it wasn't for your "...random liberal source", we wouldn't have all the fun tibits of knowledge into the crackhead that is our president.

    i'd like to think this may have had some impact on you - made you think... if you still disagree with me - I'd love to know why...
    Sorry the only impact you made on me was how naive you are. You are forgeting that El Presidente is a human being. With faults. Just because he is the president does not mean he is perfect.
    Tiger, tiger, burning bright,
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    still don't get it?

    Wow - you apparently have some issues... Didn't realize i struck such a nerve in asking you to show respect to someone who deserves respect. Or to discriminate in what you say, rather than opening the floodgates and letting every random thought spew forth. So your right to free speech basically is just giving you an excuse to act like someone with teret's...

    I dind't say the problems we whine about aren't legitimate - i said get some perspective. To those people who have problems infinitely more severe than ours, we are whining, and what kind of example do we set when we do that? How unappreciative of our freedoms do we seem?

    I'm not blinded by any kind of propoganda, although you obviouolsly are. Where do you think your impression of President Bush came from, your own "astute" observations? Doubtful. If so, what were they? Or what are they still? You still haven't answered the question - how has president Bush failed you as a leader of our country? I'm betting there isn't anything, and you're just being a funnel for what you heard on your juvenile college campus or something.

    How intelligent do you think you sound when you say "crackhead"? That's inciteful, not insightful. To me, it shows that you have no real point to make, and are relying on playground tactics to get a rise from some crowd, isn't that right, miss poopy-pants? (borrowed that from naked gun - seemed appropriate.) If you have no insight, aren't intelligent, or for whatever reason need to say President Bush is a crackhead to try and make people think you're smart - well, gee, hope it at least makes you happy.

    I don't think anyone in America was drooling of the September 11th attacks. If they were, all i can say is that's sad.

    I'm gonna let you in on another little secret - every president has people preparing their speeches for them. Did you give credit to president Clinton when he made a nice speech? Then in fairness, you must either give credit to president Bush, or retract it for every public speaking of every president. Do you think John F. Kennedy wrote "Ask not what your country can do for you, rather ask what you can do for your country."??? Not so much, missy. Not so much. Even knowing he did not write this - do i think he was an effective president and a good leader? Yes i do. Not because he was popular or charismatic, but for what he did for this nation. Unite them in a common goal under trying times. Pushing our Nation forward toward achievement. The presidency isn't a popularity contest - or it shouldn't be, anyway. Unfortunately with some, it seems to be.
    Especially with people like you.

    Let me ask you something - what did you think of Bill Clinton? Did he do the presidency justice in your opinion?

    I would love to see you do a better job. The fact that you said - not only yes, but hell yes - proves your ignorance. The only reasonable response to a question like that would be something akin to "I don't know, i couln't imagine being in a situation like that" Because you can't. And since you can't possibly imagine being in the position he's in right now, the least you can do, is show some respect.

    You think "those patriots" had what you're saying in mind? Those patriots would have handed you your jaw for saying that. You just spit on their graves with those words. You don't even appreciate your rights. Do you think that thousands upon thousands of men died in truly horrific ways - bayonet wounds, infection, hypothermia, having limbs torn off their bodies with cannonballs, or musket rounds, gangreen - just so you could mouth off? If that's what you think, then you, my friend, are the naive one. They fought so that they could stand up to injustice without being imprisoned or killed. You have no idea what your rights are, and don't at all appreciate them - because you've never lived without them. That makes you spoiled rotten. And before you say it, yes, I have a better idea than you do what it is to live without the rights you cower behind. You think my asking him to apologize is a joke? Do you have any idea what personal responsibility is? This man obviously has none. Do you? And, as you wouyld be so quick to point out, everything I'm saying is well within my rights, i just choose to say something worthwhile.

    No, i agree with you, mysanthropic-*****.com should not go down just because people disagree with it. There's a difference though. I'm not saying slate.msn.com should go down, I'm saying this man should take responsibility for his words and apologize because what he said is wrong. Are you saying that since we live in a "freedom of speech" society that the word apology is useless. That's the freedom of speech world you live in, apparently. Where you don't have to be sorry for what you say, or take responsibility for yourself, because you have rights, dammit! Did i attack his right to speak? No. Did i disagree with him in an adult fashion, and ask for an apology? Yes. Is there a problem with that?

    Did i say every journalist should kiss up to Bush? Hmmm - i don't remember saying that. I said they should report the news, not opinion. And they should report it fairly and without bias. When people print things such as that article, while they obviously aren't journalists, they play themselves off to be, rather than justifying it with "in my opinion" They do this because to qualify a remark with those words weakens their point. And if the truth weakens your point, you may want to rethink which side of the point you're on. To do otherwise is simply childish.

    Before you get all the way on your high horse (just want to keep you from being unneccessarily knocked off it from a greater height), yes i did speak the same about President Clinton's affairs. (<--- Double entendre, get it?) I come from a conservative background, obviously. And to those same people, i spoke up against their derailment of President Clinton. Surprised? Surprised that i'm not 2 faced? Are you mysanthropic? I didn't speak up in defense of what president Clinton did, i spoke up in defense of the position of president of the United States. While Clinton's actions may have provided the fuel to embarass our Nation, it was the intense reporting of it that was the fire. I believe that the position of President should be a dignified one, and to drag the president through the mud - even if he was guilty - is wrong, and not in the best interest of the nation. Did any good come of the reports of the president's infidelity and adultery? What benefits were gained? Now of the extremely questionable (and that's putting it mildly) pardons the ex-president granted, that's another story. That was a direct crime against the people of the united states by somebody abusing their position. Was he serving the public interest in that regard? No. Was he serving himself. **** straight he was.

    And yet again, you did not read my post. You read enough to jump to a conclusion that fit well within your predetermined estimation of me. I did not say that liberals are the only ones who slander. As you can clearly tell from either my post, or your quote of my post "this is the way of politics. It's self-serving at the cost of the innocent." I'm just saying that in this instance, the liberals are slandering. And if you have to justify their slander with "the conservatives do it too" - then apart from the words i clearly wrote, you have lost sight of what's right and wrong.

    I'm sorry the only impact my post had on you was to make you think i was naive. I'm sorry you couldn't gain anything more from it - a different perspective, perhaps; another way of looking at things... In a way, i am naive - or more to the point, believe that the world should be a place more like one that is viewed by the naive. I never said the president was perfect. I said respect the position he's in, respect him, and give him credit if for nothing else, than exceeding your expectations of him.

  12. #12
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    Re: still don't get it?

    Originally posted by cyphen
    Wow - you apparently have some issues... Didn't realize i struck such a nerve in asking you to show respect to someone who deserves respect. Or to discriminate in what you say, rather than opening the floodgates and letting every random thought spew forth. So your right to free speech basically is just giving you an excuse to act like someone with teret's...
    There is not one single person, living or dead, that deserves respect. They earn it. So far the only respect I give Bush is for his slick handling of the words put into his mouth. And yes, free speech allows me to say what I want. Just as it allows you to act like Bush's but kissing pansy boy.


    I dind't say the problems we whine about aren't legitimate - i said get some perspective. To those people who have problems infinitely more severe than ours, we are whining, and what kind of example do we set when we do that? How unappreciative of our freedoms do we seem?
    Hmm, do I really care that some schmoe in say Ethiopia thinks I am a whiner, or for that matter some fool posting on Sysopt??? To use your own words, get some perspective. It is our right to whine! If these people have it so bad, they can change the society they live in. Poor in Afghanistan? MOVE! Taliban got you down? MOVE!! KGB took Daddy away? MOVE!!! Crackhead living on the street? BECOME PRESIDENT and MOVE! Don't like having to cover up everything but your eyes? TOPPLE THE GOVERNMENT! The great thing about our country is the fact that we can talk about or government and not fear retribution. I consider it a blessing that I can call Bush a crackhead and the only thing I have to suffer is a person like you whining about it.

    I'm not blinded by any kind of propoganda, although you obviouolsly are. Where do you think your impression of President Bush came from, your own "astute" observations? Doubtful. If so, what were they? Or what are they still? You still haven't answered the question - how has president Bush failed you as a leader of our country? I'm betting there isn't anything, and you're just being a funnel for what you heard on your juvenile college campus or something.
    I ask you, where does your righteous impression of Bush come from??? You know Bush personally? You've been to his house, asked him his thoughts, etc? Did you ask him about crack? I never said he failed me. I am only saying he isn't the infalliable god you make him out to be. He is a confimred drug abuser. He is not the best person to be leading our country. Well, since I personally don't know President Bush, where else would I get impressions about him? NEWS MEDIA!!!

    How intelligent do you think you sound when you say "crackhead"? That's inciteful, not insightful. To me, it shows that you have no real point to make, and are relying on playground tactics to get a rise from some crowd, isn't that right, miss poopy-pants? (borrowed that from naked gun - seemed appropriate.) If you have no insight, aren't intelligent, or for whatever reason need to say President Bush is a crackhead to try and make people think you're smart - well, gee, hope it at least makes you happy.
    Wait a sec..I'm supposed to be having an Intelligent conversation with some shmuck who is basically wiping Bush's asp for him? Saying he's a crackhead has nothing to do with my intelligence, or according to you lack thereof. It has to do with a simple fact that it was reported in the news that Bush had abused drugs. http://www.salon.com/news/feature/19...ty/index.html. Of course, you'll probably shrug this off as some liberal propaganda..

    I don't think anyone in America was drooling of the September 11th attacks. If they were, all i can say is that's sad.
    So you're telling me that no Ad agency has used the Sept 11 attack as a means of generating money? No car company has suddenly used Flags in thier add. No Fly-by-nite- company hasn't started selling the "American" package of Flags and static stickers for our cars? No special comemorative American coins? No people setting on the street selling American flag t-shirts or flags? No "proud to be an American" sticker in the restaurant window? Sad yes, Truth, yes.

    I'm gonna let you in on another little secret - every president has people preparing their speeches for them. Did you give credit to president Clinton when he made a nice speech? Then in fairness, you must either give credit to president Bush, or retract it for every public speaking of every president. Do you think John F. Kennedy wrote "Ask not what your country can do for you, rather ask what you can do for your country."??? Not so much, missy. Not so much. Even knowing he did not write this - do i think he was an effective president and a good leader? Yes i do. Not because he was popular or charismatic, but for what he did for this nation. Unite them in a common goal under trying times. Pushing our Nation forward toward achievement. The presidency isn't a popularity contest - or it shouldn't be, anyway. Unfortunately with some, it seems to be.
    Especially with people like you.

    Let me ask you something - what did you think of Bill Clinton? Did he do the presidency justice in your opinion?
    Uhm, I don't ever remember saying I was a Democrat that supported Clinton or JFK. I personally stoped beleiving in any president when Carter left and Ronbo was re-elected. As for popularity contest, how do you think your God Bush got elected? (uh-oh! I opened a whole new can of worms! Bad me, bad me!!)


    I would love to see you do a better job. The fact that you said - not only yes, but hell yes - proves your ignorance. The only reasonable response to a question like that would be something akin to "I don't know, i couln't imagine being in a situation like that" Because you can't. And since you can't possibly imagine being in the position he's in right now, the least you can do, is show some respect.
    See, this is where you are confused. I don't have to show anyone respect unless they earn it from me. Bush doesn't give a **** thing wether or not I respect him, why do you? You are right in on respect, I couldn't imagine being in his position. I meant only that if I were to find myself in his position, I hope that I could have the same asp-kissing staff to put on a good show for me. And to keep me from blundering along... And again, he hasn't earned my respect, other than the slick way in which he has you blind fools attaching your lips to his hind quarters..

    You think "those patriots" had what you're saying in mind? Those patriots would have handed you your jaw for saying that. You just spit on their graves with those words. You don't even appreciate your rights. Do you think that thousands upon thousands of men died in truly horrific ways - bayonet wounds, infection, hypothermia, having limbs torn off their bodies with cannonballs, or musket rounds, gangreen - just so you could mouth off? If that's what you think, then you, my friend, are the naive one. They fought so that they could stand up to injustice without being imprisoned or killed. You have no idea what your rights are, and don't at all appreciate them - because you've never lived without them. That makes you spoiled rotten. And before you say it, yes, I have a better idea than you do what it is to live without the rights you cower behind. You think my asking him to apologize is a joke? Do you have any idea what personal responsibility is? This man obviously has none. Do you? And, as you wouyld be so quick to point out, everything I'm saying is well within my rights, i just choose to say something worthwhile.
    That is exactly what I think. They fought for my right to say whatever I **** well please. Just as you have the right to say what you want. You think all these "patriots" were saints?? They had no faults? They didn't mouth off themselves?


    No, i agree with you, mysanthropic-*****.com should not go down just because people disagree with it. There's a difference though. I'm not saying slate.msn.com should go down, I'm saying this man should take responsibility for his words and apologize because what he said is wrong. Are you saying that since we live in a "freedom of speech" society that the word apology is useless. That's the freedom of speech world you live in, apparently. Where you don't have to be sorry for what you say, or take responsibility for yourself, because you have rights, dammit! Did i attack his right to speak? No. Did i disagree with him in an adult fashion, and ask for an apology? Yes. Is there a problem with that?
    You fool. By having his article posted and attching his name and email he is taking responsibility for his words. You need to turn your eyes from the "divine" light that is your god(Bush). If I say that you are a child molester, and by that action cause you to lose your job, family, etc, and it is later proved that you are not in fact a molester, then yes, I would owe you an aoplogy and quite probably a hefty sum of money. The author of the original article does not owe any one an apology for his opinions. They are that his own. He is paid to express his opinions. If Bush comes to me and says "I did not now or ever take or abuse drugs." to my face and looks me straight in the eye, or even shows proof that he didn't instead of skating around the issue, then yes, I will apologize. Till that time, screw off. The problem with your whole argument, is that you are asking for a person's apology for his own opinions. No one has to apologize for that, it's stupid of you to ask and shows your lack of understanding of anything beyond your brown nose.
    Tiger, tiger, burning bright,
    In the forest of the night,
    What immortal hand or eye
    Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

  13. #13
    Member Lycia's Avatar
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    Post part duex (apparently I run my mouth!!)

    Did i say every journalist should kiss up to Bush? Hmmm - i don't remember saying that. I said they should report the news, not opinion. And they should report it fairly and without bias. When people print things such as that article, while they obviously aren't journalists, they play themselves off to be, rather than justifying it with "in my opinion" They do this because to qualify a remark with those words weakens their point. And if the truth weakens your point, you may want to rethink which side of the point you're on. To do otherwise is simply childish.
    Again, you fool. The tone of his article didn't strike me as a news report. Why are you taking his comments so personally? Seems to me MSN didn't have a problem with him reporting his opinion, why should you? News being non-biased and reported fairly? ROFL!!!!! Isn't that an oxymoron?


    Before you get all the way on your high horse (just want to keep you from being unneccessarily knocked off it from a greater height), yes i did speak the same about President Clinton's affairs. (<--- Double entendre, get it?) I come from a conservative background, obviously. And to those same people, i spoke up against their derailment of President Clinton. Surprised? Surprised that i'm not 2 faced? Are you mysanthropic? I didn't speak up in defense of what president Clinton did, i spoke up in defense of the position of president of the United States. While Clinton's actions may have provided the fuel to embarass our Nation, it was the intense reporting of it that was the fire. I believe that the position of President should be a dignified one, and to drag the president through the mud - even if he was guilty - is wrong, and not in the best interest of the nation. Did any good come of the reports of the president's infidelity and adultery? What benefits were gained? Now of the extremely questionable (and that's putting it mildly) pardons the ex-president granted, that's another story. That was a direct crime against the people of the united states by somebody abusing their position. Was he serving the public interest in that regard? No. Was he serving himself. **** straight he was
    You keep mentioning Clinton as if I somewhere stated that I supported him or that I stated I was a staunch Liberal Democrat.. You are right in that the President should be diginified. It's not my fault we have had idiots like JFK, Nixon, Ronbo, Bush1, and Clinton. It's our own fault for voting these fools in office. But don't mistake the Office of Presidency for the man. The Presidency is only as diginified as the monkey who sits in the chair. Not arguing with you about Clinton. I never mentioned that I supported him, so stop trying to use him as an argument against my opinions.

    And yet again, you did not read my post. You read enough to jump to a conclusion that fit well within your predetermined estimation of me. I did not say that liberals are the only ones who slander. As you can clearly tell from either my post, or your quote of my post "this is the way of politics. It's self-serving at the cost of the innocent." I'm just saying that in this instance, the liberals are slandering. And if you have to justify their slander with "the conservatives do it too" - then apart from the words i clearly wrote, you have lost sight of what's right and wrong.
    OMG The Liberals Are Slandering!! The Liberals are Slandering!! Make war, the Liberals are slandering!!

    I'm sorry the only impact my post had on you was to make you think i was naive. I'm sorry you couldn't gain anything more from it - a different perspective, perhaps; another way of looking at things... In a way, i am naive - or more to the point, believe that the world should be a place more like one that is viewed by the naive. I never said the president was perfect. I said respect the position he's in, respect him, and give him credit if for nothing else, than exceeding your expectations of him.
    Maybe if you took your head from the sand, or where ever else it might be, you might be seen as something more than Naive.

    Thats the rub, I don't respect him as a man or a president. I respect the position he is in and his smooth as silk way he's got you sheep lining up to lay the smack on his cheeks. He exceeded only in showing what smooth talker he is.
    Tiger, tiger, burning bright,
    In the forest of the night,
    What immortal hand or eye
    Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

  14. #14
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    at any point are you going to say something with all those words?

    Wow. Wow. Nobody deserves respect until they earn it from you? I feel sorry for everybody who's ever met you. If you show disrespect to everybody before they even get the chance to prove they deserve your repect, well then who would ever want your repect in the first place? Is that the world you wish to support? I suppose, though, that your "show disrespect until respect is earned" demeanor is at least congruent with your "guilty until proven innocent" approach. Your link that was supposed to show how Bush was (to use your favorite word) a "crackhead" was broken, so i searched the sight for a while and came across the following articles:

    Bush's rumored drug use

    which also linked to this article

    checking out the rumors

    Neither of them offered anything more than the statement that rumors had arisen, but any attempts to verify those rumors were fruitless. Are either of these the article you attempted to link to?

    "Again you fool. " Ouch. You've devistated me. Why are you so bent on using personal attacks? Perhaps it's becuase your points can't stand on their own merit. You don't see me calling you names. Can't you be an adult? You would lose an actual debate so fast it would make your head spin, because you don't focus on issues, but rather on attacking your (for lack of a better word) opponent personally.

    You know what's hilarious? I never stated any of my opinions of President bush, other than that he should be respected for hanlding a tough situation well. And that i think he is doing a good job under - to put it mildly - trying circumstances. Somehow from this, you've gleaned that somehow I'm his "yes man" consider him to be a god, and in all other ways kiss is a#$. Jump to conclusions much?

    The reason i brought up clinton was not to use him as an argument against your opinions, but rather to show that I'm not as biased as you think i am. But convincing you of that seems to be impossible due to your closed-mind and the fact that you've already categorized me as somebody i'm not, not to mention the fact that it's an effort of diminishing (if not already negligible) returns.

    So you apparently disagree with me that news should be reported in an unbiased and fair fashion? I know it isn't, which is why i used the word "should" in my post.

    I'm taking his comments personally because he's wrong, and spewing his ignorance as fact. Yet again - (and i'll spell this slowly so you read it this time)

    I d o n ' t h a v e a p r o b l e m w i t h h i m e x p r e s s i n g h i s o p i n i o n s. I have a problem with the opinions he's expressing. There's a world of difference.

    So then apparently (according to you) i should set my moral compass to what msn approves. If they don't have a problem with something, then it must be okay. Everyone - turn to msn! Msn is the messiah! Your hypocrisy apparently knows no bounds. You hail free speech, but deride free thought? I suppose that doesn't come as much of a surprise though.

    For your information, you're the only person i know of who seems to think i have my head in the sand, an opinion that carries about as much weight as a wet kleenex.

    Sounds to me like you don't care about much of anything or anyone. If that's the case, i feel sorry for you.

    I never said the patriots who paid for your mouth with their bood were saints. I said they didn't die for you to mouth off. There's a difference. And to say they did, disrespects both them and what they died for. But then they never earned your respect, did they, so i guess it doesn't matter to you.

  15. #15
    Member elleon30033's Avatar
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    oh my, your command of the intricacies of computers was impressive, but the additional political astuteness has positively made my chest pound...LOL, Lycia you are a card. I will try not to be too brutal here. Unfortunately, after many years of study in the art of politics, some of the specifics of the issues you guys (and of course -clearing my throat-girl) have discussed are all too clear to me.
    The first thing i wanna say is elected my asp.
    God it wouldn't have been so bad but it also sullied my opinion of the Supreme Court (as if Clarence Thomas and pubic hair on the coke can hadn't already done that). There, i said it. Secondly, since when is Bush a smooth talker. Lycia are we watching the same guy? Third, and yes i am going there too. Pres. Reagan, the same guy who called for a blood bath on a college campus as Gov. of Calif. and claimed ignorance of the Iran Contra mess is supposed to be revered as dudly do right? Puuuuuuuuulease.
    Furthermore, this effort to silence dissent is the most dangerous drift i have seen as a citizen of this country; it is positively orwellian.....oh we missed 1984, let's make it a brave new world in 2002. Get a grip....Big brother is now a gorilla, and while you are looking for terrorist, your freedoms and due process are being eaten like so many ripe bananas. As to the personal strengths and weaknesses of our current president, let the man speak extemporaneously on any issue of substance and you decide. I could move on to the "war" that is certainly not a "war" but i have probably insulted someone already and that is not my intent. Now, can we get back to computers? Maybe a cup of coffee...hmmmmmmm Lycia? ROTFLMAO.....sorry couldn't resist. Unamerican....yeah ...right!
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