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Thread: Palestinian State?

  1. #31
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    It's disappointing to me to see us get so far off the topic, which is "Palestinian State?".

    If I recall my history, the United Nations ceded a portion of Palestine for the formation of the Jewish State of Israel, so Jewish people had a homeland where they would be free from persecution. This was, of course, on the heels of the worst atrocities ever commited against mankind when over 10,000,000 people, nearly 60% of them Jewish, were killed at the hands of the Nazis in Germany and Austria.

    Less than one month after the declaration of the State of Israel, Arab armies on all sides launched a war to push the Jews out and take over the land. Of course, the Israeli army, being better military tacticians, ultimately won that war, resulting in a treuce.

    Minor military flare-ups occurred sporadically in the 50s and 60s until Egypt launched an all out offensive aganst Israel in 1967. Other Arab nations bordering Israel joined in, and again, Israel beat them back in just 6 days, taking over much more land than they were given in 1948. They did this to protect their borders from terrorists. The cease fire agreements included the giving back of much of the seized land which just opened the door for terrorists to again terrorize the Israelis.

    In 1973, on the holiest day on the Jewish calendar, Egypt launched a surprise attack on Israel. Once again, after just one month, Israel had taken over all of the Sinai peninsula and was within striking distance of Cairo when a cease fire was agreed to. Anwar Sadat, who launched the war, realized that Israel was capable of dominating his country militarily so instead wisely chose to pursue peace with Israel. What a brave hero he was!

    Israel has always been open to the possibility of land for peace, as long as their Arab neighbors agreed to and stuck to the agreement. As we have seen so many times before, Israel's Arab neighbors are incapable of keeping their word. It has been quoted that "Yassir Arafat has never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity". I don't believe he will be the Palestinian leader to bring peace to the region.

    The Palestinians (and most Arab nations) are convinced that the land of Israel belongs to them, and therein lies the problem. With so much Arab land, they can make themselves a tremendous Palestinian homeland and develop it the way the Israelis made farmland out of desert.

    This whole issue upsets me greatly, and I hope I haven't offended anyone here. The entire world will benefit from a true longlasting peace in the Middle East.

  2. #32
    I'll take two... CPU's BBA's Avatar
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    You assessment is pretty accurate. A friend of mine lives in the actual house used for the peace summit in 1975 where Carter hosted Anwar Sadat. ( It's in Deerwood, Jacksonville Fl. )
    WINDOWS 2000....Need I say more!


  3. #33
    Senior Member club_med's Avatar
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    For those interested:

    Last edited by club_med; 10-09-2001 at 01:18 PM.

  4. #34
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    Very informative, thanks CM!
    Dave

  5. #35
    Evil Lurks NDD's Avatar
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    We should try to have a positive impact on anyone who will genuinely attempt to improve themselves, and hence their world. This includes members of all nations, ethnicities, religions, etc. Ignorance is our enemy and it exists everywhere, not just in the Middle East
    I couldn't say it better, Scorpio69 !

    Let me tell you how the things really are, for the one who is a Jew, actually lives in Israel, and even been to Wailing Wall personally (BBA ).

    People are getting killed here everyday. Not just Israeli soldiers and Palestinian terrorists, but also innocent people. From both sides. Everybody in the world calls it a "conflict" (between "nationalities", like UK foreign minister said few days ago), but it's a WAR. You have to live here to see for yourself, CNN is mostly Pro-Arabic and doesn't make any justice with what actually happens here. All you see is little Arab kids throwing stones on mighty Israeli tanks, but what you don't know is that Palestinian leaders simply order to take the kids out of gardens/schools and put them on the front line. Every Palestinian mother would be happy if her kid will die, coz it makes him "Shahid" (yes, like in "Dune"), the ultimate fighter who died but took with him as much as possible "non-believers", i.e. Jews/Christians, and who will get straight to Heaven for it. I know it sounds really awful, but as I told I know how the things really are, and if you want, one of my friends is a MD, in Israeli hospital, which takes care of all Israeli citizens, including Arabs, and even those who live in Palestinian Autonomy. Well, just yesterday he told me about young Arab couple who named their newborn boy "Osama", guess for whom ?! And the "proud" father told my friend that he hopes his son would be half as "famous" as Osama Bin-Laden, and we all know what Bin-Laden is famous for ...

    It's all about propaganda, fear and ignorance being turned to hatred.

    I don't know if there is a solution for this, not in present generation, for sure. From 1991, the Oslo agreements, we're giving the Arabs more and more, negotiating and trying to live in peace, but it will never end, coz they simple want us, the Jews, DEAD.


    P.S. One of the reasons I like "cyberspace" (and this particular forum) for is coz it doesn't really matters here what nationality/religion you are, what does count is what person you are. And I don't really like discussing politics online, doing it all the time in the "real" world , but I just had to drop few words on this thread.

    Best Regards ...

  6. #36
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    Club Med,

    Are you thinking that the UN info is NOT biased? It's interesting to me that they neglect the fact that Egypt attacked Israel, unprovoked, surprising them on the holiest Jewish day of the year in 1973.

    The UN is just as biased, perhaps more so, than the ethinic sources you don't want to quote!

  7. #37
    Senior Member club_med's Avatar
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    * Can't be bothered anymore.
    Last edited by club_med; 10-09-2001 at 02:51 PM.

  8. #38
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    In MY view, the Palestinians are acting like animals, the Israelis are trying to defend themselves against terrorism.

  9. #39
    Senior Member club_med's Avatar
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    * Can't be bothered anymore.
    Last edited by club_med; 10-09-2001 at 02:52 PM.

  10. #40
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    MrMikeL, very accurate. I would have added that in 1973, the Israeli army had the Egyptian 3rd army trapped. It was then that under U.S. advice they called a truce.

    I also want to add this that I received in email. The writer is one of the leading expert on the middle east.

    Dear Friends and Colleagues:

    Below please find a copy of an article of mine published in the September 28, 2001 issue of the International Jerusalem Post. It concerns some disturbing developments in the U.S.-Egyptian relationship that could have serious implications for war and peace in the Middle East. I would be grateful if you would forward this article along to others who might be interested in this topic.

    Thank you
    Rand Fishbein, Ph.D.
    fishnet@pipeline.com
    www.fishbeinassociates.com

    The International Jerusalem Post

    September 28, 2001

    Denial on the Nile

    By

    Rand H. Fishbein

    As Americans learn more about the terrorists who attacked them, an uncomfortable fact is emerging.

    Far from being the product of rogue states, the perpetrators were reportedly Saudi and Egyptian, and appear to be part of a vast network linked to the attacks on the Khobar Towers, the USS Cole, and the East African embassies. The Egyptian connection is particularly disturbing, since there are indications that the Mubarak administration itself has moved sharply away from the US orbit.

    Just as the Oslo process has faltered, so too America’s Arab alliance network in the Middle East has shown signs of strain.

    Not only has a new, militant Islam made deep inroads into all strata of Egyptian society, but the government itself has become an ever more vociferous critic of US policy. In a sharp rebuke to Washington, Cairo spearheaded the drive to condemn Israel during the Durban conference, and pressed – in vain – the European Union to impose sanctions on Jerusalem.

    When word of the Twin Tower attacks reached Cairo, there was reportedly street-level jubilation, a natural aftermath of years during which torching the US flag was a common sight on Egyptian university campuses, while the US swallowed the insult.

    Both despite and because of an annual US aid package of approximately $1.3 billion, Egypt looms as a growing strategic threat to Israel and cannot be discounted as an adversary in any future regional conflict.

    Washington knows this, but still continues to lead Egypt’s military build-up.

    After nearly a generation of massive US aid, Egypt’s military is fully modernized, equipped, and trained by the US. The largest Arab army is now better able to attack than ever before. This is worrisome.

    With no apparent threat to its territorial integrity, Cairo seems poised for war. Its political and military leaders have said repeatedly they would not stand idly by if Israel mounted sustained operations inside Palestinian-controlled territories. This, despite a 20-year peace treaty with Israel, and a pledge to resolve all bilateral disputes non-violently.

    Tensions between Cairo and Jerusalem have been building for years as torrents of inciteful rhetoric poured out of the state-run media. Using Nasserist language, political and military leaders routinely call for a holy war to capture Jerusalem. Anti-Semitic cartoons portray Israel as using HIV/AIDS as a weapon against the Arab people.

    Still, the US has seemed strangely disengaged in the face of all this, using little of its economic or political leverage to make Egypt change. Instead, the Pentagon recently approved a host of Egyptian arms requests, including a green light to assemble more than 100 additional Abrams M1A1 tanks at a cost of $590 million. This brings to 755 the number of advanced American tanks now in the Egyptian inventory.

    Within just the last five months, Washington has approved the sale of 26 Lockheed Martin Multiple-Launch Rocket Systems (MLRS) with extended-range rockets, six SPS-48E three-dimensional land-based radar systems and associated equipment, and an additional E-2C Hawkeye airborne early warning and control aircraft. Egypt already has five of the aircraft.

    On August 19th, Egypt got four new F-16's. Cairo also is in the market for Halter Marine fast attack missile boats and 311 “identification friend or foe” (IFF) systems, which are useful for offensive battlefield operations.

    As America’s economy falters, the allure of weapons sales to Egypt is as great as was the allure of sales to Iraq before '91. But as Washington should have learned from that experience, American foreign policy is best served by a longer-term view.

    Most unsettling, Washington has turned a blind eye to Egypt’s acquisition of some 50 North Korean No-Dong missiles. In official briefings the Pentagon plays down the threat, noting only that Cairo possesses Scud-B missiles. Other countries, such as Libya, Iran, and Pakistan are singled out by name as cooperating extensively with North Korea, but not Egypt.

    The standard No-Dong has a range of between 1,000 and 1,300 kilometers and could easily hit most targets in Israel. More than 300 North Koreans are reportedly in Egypt and Libya readying the missiles.

    While all this is going on, the US military is set to begin the world’s largest joint military exercise with Egypt and eight other countries. Dubbed “Bright Star,” the biennial event is the capstone of the US-Egypt relationship, involving 14,000 US troops.

    Meanwhile, ever since the terrorist bombing of the USS Cole last October, joint training with Israel has all but ground to a halt. It is unclear what signal the US is trying to send. Has the US made a strategic decision to distance itself from Israel, in yet another effort to appease sentiments in the Arab world? After the attacks in Washington and New York, such a move is unlikely to sit well with an outraged American public.

    Back in February, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld proposed that the US withdraw a significant portion of its 865-man observer force that has monitored the peace agreement between Egypt and Israel in the Sinai. This would ignore the Middle East’s newly demonstrated explosiveness and Egypt’s ongoing girding for war.

    Rather than withdrawing troops, the US should be enhancing its presence, deploying new, and ever more sophisticated early warning systems, and assisting both sides in halting the smuggling of weapons to Palestinian terrorists through tunnels burrowed under the border from Egypt to Gaza.

    Instead, confusion reigns in US Middle East policy. As with Iraq a decade ago, the US has been ignoring the warning signs of a potential conflict, hoping that with time, and business as usual, the problem will go away. History, however, suggests otherwise.

    While the US contemplates retaliation for the worst attack on American soil since the British burned Washington in 1812, it will have to consider whether the weapons it supplies to Egypt today could be used against American forces tomorrow. This certainly was the case with Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan during the last 20 years. For Jerusalem, the continued sales to Egypt merely mock the longstanding commitment of successive American presidents to ensure Israel’s qualitative military edge over any combination of regional enemies.

    As war looms in the weeks and months ahead, those on night watch in the Pentagon’s situation room should make sure to keep a clean set of clothes handy. It could be along winter.

    The writer, a Potomac-based public-policy consultant, is a former staff member of the US Senate Defense Appropriations and Foreign Operations Appropriations subcommittees.

  11. #41
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    The real challenge is getting the Arabs to see it this way.
    Okay daveleau, how is this statement not racist? Are you aware that there are hundreds of thousands of Arabs who are loyal citizens of the United States? Of many other western countries? Do you assume that they all see things the same way? Do you assume that Arabs even in the Middle East all see things the same way?

    I have a serious problem with you calling me ignorant, especially after a comment like that! If you want to do it again, please do it privately.

    As far as sexist, I’ll leave that one alone. I personally would not care to attend an institution only of my own gender, but to each his/her own.

  12. #42
    Ultimate Member muchmark's Avatar
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    daveleau about the only thing you have not said in this thread is that some of my best friends are arabs and blacks!

  13. #43
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    Ive read dave's post several times and I still do not see what you all are getting on him for. MTA pointed facts about the things, Dave basically agreed and you all are jumping all over him. If im missing something here please feel free to point it out....although it really isnt anything.

    LOL CM, if you cant be bothered anymore, why did you post it twice??

    ILC

  14. #44
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    Originally posted by MTAtech
    Both despite and because of an annual US aid package of approximately $1.3 billion, Egypt looms as a growing strategic threat to Israel and cannot be discounted as an adversary in any future regional conflict.

    Washington knows this, but still continues to lead Egypt’s military build-up.

    After nearly a generation of massive US aid, Egypt’s military is fully modernized, equipped, and trained by the US. The largest Arab army is now better able to attack than ever before. This is worrisome.

    With no apparent threat to its territorial integrity, Cairo seems poised for war. Its political and military leaders have said repeatedly they would not stand idly by if Israel mounted sustained operations inside Palestinian-controlled territories. This, despite a 20-year peace treaty with Israel, and a pledge to resolve all bilateral disputes non-violently.

    Still, the US has seemed strangely disengaged in the face of all this, using little of its economic or political leverage to make Egypt change.

    Just a hypothesis:

    As Isreal gains greater and greater regional power after decades of US military and financial support, it is becoming much less accomodating to US policy as it places its own intrests ahead of its benefactors. From a foriegn policy point of view, increasing the power of Egypt could be an attempt to renew Isreals dependence for security on the US. This would have the effect of restoring American influence over its foothold in the Middle East. It would also have a very large downside because of the inevitable war that will result and the possibilty of armaments reaching radical elements in Egypt. This is partially balanced by the consequent weakening of both Isreal and Egypt that a war would cause and the fact that the focus of radical Muslims would switch from the US to Isreal.

    Maybe true, maybe not, but certainly not out of the realm of possibility.

  15. #45
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    I want to go back and take back what I said before, but will not because I deserve what I am getting for saying that. I am not racist. If you think that, then ok. I hold no ill will towards any race. I don't know what else I can say. I think the majority of the Middle East is upset that Israel is there and holds some of their most sacred land. I see that both Jews and Muslims hold claims to that land and that conflict is not going to be easy to smooth over. Until recently, I saw things as the Israelis being attacked without cause from the other Arab countries that surround them. I have been misinformed. I have since realized that Israel is not blameless. My statement before was to say that the rest of the Arab (the countries around Israle are Arab, there is no other way to describe them and there is no malice behind that word) world should realize that Israel has claim to that area. I do not see any racism in this. Racism is harboring hate towards someone because of race. I harbor no hate towards arabs or any other group for any reason (barring terrorists). I do not see how any racist remarks could be gleaned from my statements. If you see it that way, I think you might be searching a bit too deeply into things and you may be reading between the lines (incorrectly reading between the lines, that is).

    Muchmark,
    Not sure what you are talking about. Are you saying that I am making statements similar to noted racists that are caught by their words? Well I am not a racist, see above. If you have a reason to say I am racist, then tell me and don't just call me names. I am probably the nicest, most aimable guy you could meet and I bet you would be very surprised once you got to know me instead of being this way. I do not understand what you are saying. If you have any personal comments to pose towards me, PM me and I can talk to you there.

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