Is this kind of licensing legal?

**Eric Legge** · 05-07-2003 05:09 PM

Greetings all,

I came across this post that I don't know the answer to.

Can anyone shed any light on the matter?

Hi,

I'm trying to untangle a mystery concerning my
girlfriend's parents' computer.

It is an IBM machine purchased new, back in 1999. It came
with Windows 98 installed but I'm told came with no
Windows CD, no License, and no restore disk. When asked,
IBM told them (apparently) that because they hadn't paid
for Windows 98, they don't get the disks. When questioned
if this was legal, IBM replied "We hold the license, if
you need it reinstalled, it has to be sent back to the
shop"

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me - If the shop owned
the license, they would not be allowed under license law
to sell usage of it to the public?

I only know from my own work at a computer shop in ENGLAND
that if WE sell a PC, it MUST be shipped with the original
CD and license for the OS that it's being supplied with.
My girlfriend's parents live in the USA - is there any
different rules or regulations concerning licensing there?

It seems to be a common problem also - a friend of hers
bought a laptop second hand from a computer shop and it
had Windows ME installed on it. Again, no license or CD
were provided, and now that it is experiencing problems
(Which windows ME systems are prone to, as I understand)
there is nothing she can do.

Would someone like to comment specifically on the cases
shown here, and tell me once and for all what the law IS?

Eric
http://www.legge40.freeserve.co.uk/BuyerBeware.htm

**AllGamer** · 05-07-2003 05:20 PM

what that guy said is true

if IBM does that, then they are kinda Pirating

but on the other hand, who cares Win98 is dying already

its dates are marked

**Billforce** · 05-07-2003 05:21 PM

Eric,

We sell new systems (OEM license) for MS Windows that is a blanket permeit for X number of units. The license requires the O/S be installed on the hard drive and a CERTIFICATE with an ORIGINAL MS number authorizing the use of the O/S, but no cd -rom is given to the customer. The certificate has an install key code number the same as an original cd-rom for one user only.
The builder is REQUIRED to give the customer the certificate with the new PC.

**2penguins** · 05-07-2003 05:34 PM

If a CD wasn't included with the computer then a copy of the Windows intallation files are written on the Hard disk.

This is how Toshiba sold their laptops.

They even sent floppy labels with the laptop so you could copy the installation files to disks.

You were only allowed to write it once though.

It is posible IBM has written the Install onto the HDD.
The licence should allow the owner to make one copy of the software if it's there.

**AllGamer** · 05-07-2003 05:36 PM

yup Billforce is right

Dells does the same thing
they don't really need to provide the CD media

but they do have to provide the license STICKER

**gjimene2** · 05-07-2003 08:34 PM

Yep, I second Billforce.

but here is another. There are some stores that will ONLY sell you the Certificate.

That way if you already have a cd with your favorite M$ os on it, you can use another license.

**crossedup** · 05-07-2003 10:27 PM

agree, can find lots of places to buy "COA but no media"

when you do this, do you have to wait for COA with key number or can you install it and then change it when it arrives ?

sort of like xp pro evaluation copy i have, same idea

can they try it, like it, then buy license?

need to read fine print i guess. dont know if you can install, regedit and change keycode to all x's then put in correct keycode when license arrives. probably not allowed but how else to legally do it.

just apply sticker after it arrives?

this sounds like a thread for lawyers.

**pyssdogg** · 05-07-2003 10:45 PM

maybe about 3 years ago or so ..pc manufacturers stopped including the windows cd with a new machine

i belieive it was the beginning of '98 or '99

i actually believe that microsoft had something to do with this, don't think they wanted end users to have a windows cd in there posession or else the end user might go crazy and start installing windows on 100 other computers

that's why pretty much all computers you buy have the windows cabs in a folder somewhere on the hard drive, and the system maker gives you some type of restore cd alot of people aren't that smart and didn't realize that if they have a cd burner on there system that they can make there own windows cd

on another note...you are not supposed to sell coa's without media or appropriate hardware according to microsoft...a dealer in michigan just got busted for that...in fact i got a postcard from microsoft recently talking about piracy

all systems that are sold retail though are supposed to have the COA affixed to the system case, so i suspect that system they bought was bootleg

**Billforce** · 05-07-2003 11:57 PM

Eric,
On the laptops we handle, the O/S is on a separate partition on the HD but the license with the install key is on the front of the original instruction manuals always.

**2penguins** · 05-08-2003 04:17 AM

I think you folks are putting way to much into this....I think it's less MS's fault and more the result of tight market competition.

Imagine you are the CEO of Shonk Computers.
You sell proprietry machines.
You want to make money.
You want to reduce your liability.

Then you eliminate disks (CDs).
Then you don't have to replace bad disks or missing disks.

When companies like Hp or Compaq build their machines they use HDDs that already have the complete system blown onto them.

They know they will run, becaue they have 20,000 others out there just like it and they run. So you don't need no stinking disks.

Also If I'm not mistaken you can buy a resellers OEM license cheaper without the CDs than with them.

If you are only talking 10 licences then it's no big deal...but if you are buying a 100,000+ licences per year...now those Cds start to become real money.

Oh yeah, and because you're the one who made the box you have to support it. Even if it's MS's eff up.

So if the disk is stuffed you gotta supply a new one.

It's the same philosophy the Printer Mfgrs. used when they stopped including cable with thier printers.

**Eric Legge** · 05-08-2003 06:42 AM

Thanks for the replies.

It looks as if IBM was acting legally.

Windows was pre-loaded using the license number, and a sticker was probably supplied with the user manual.

The user should have made a backup of the system.

Here is a site selling 98 as "Windows 98se oem license front cover of manual and coa, no CD " -

http://www.saveateagle.com/win98seoemli.html

Eric,
http://www.legge40.freeserve.co.uk/BuyerBeware.htm

**crossedup** · 05-08-2003 07:17 AM

that is the one i was thinking of

have bought other things from them with good service but havent bought one of those, their one state over from me so get my stuff QUICK

**Slade54** · 05-08-2003 09:10 PM

Its so very very usefull to be supplied with all software on real (retail type) cds rather then a **** annoying restore disk.

With my gateway i got about 4 years ago, we got the cds seperatly like retail cds. I cant imagine what i would have done if it didnt come like that.

Though i completely understand why they dont supply CDs lke that anymore. I can see someone screwing up their system, then setting it back up again, just to screw something more up. Then tehy complain to <OEM> about it. So rather then dealing with complaints, they just force you to come in, and have someone "certified" to do it, so they cant be blamed for anything. Its all liability, and makes absolute sense.

**crossedup** · 05-09-2003 07:09 AM

believe this all started in win 95 era. the acer i purchased in '97 DID come with a disc. called 95 companion. anybody remember them?

could fix windows but it didnt have the files on the cd to install. very convenient for everyone! computer came with restore disc as well.

gave you more options to fix problems that way or just restore if system dead. i used it a few times, still have companion cd

**KenKeith** · 05-09-2003 11:52 AM

I recently purchased a Dell with XP installed, and it included a restoration CD. Previously three other purchases came with a full installation (95, 98)CDs identical to retail.

I can understand the financial rewards for manufacturers to differentiated their product. I have recently learned Dell has proprietary P/S cabling. What else, who knows, but it may compel an owner to deal with Dell before making any changes. Other manufacturers as well.

M$ is attempting to gain lost revenue by preventing multi-installation from one consumer's retail purchased CD for XP by licensing, ID of user installation with product key correlation. I have heard there is a workaround to that inovation, also easy purchase of an OEM CD.

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