Brand Names vs Home Builts

[CPU_Doug]

On June 5, 1999 Phil Moura had an article published dealing with costs vs quality of Brand Name computers vs Home Builts.

First let me say that I agree with Phil that Home Builts and Custom Builts can be just as good, yet cheaper than Name Brands. I don't believe that his software prices are realistic. Below you'll see a couple prices from his article, then my reasoning. Mind you I am not saying he isn't correct. I'm questioning if they are realistic quotes for **most** people.

Windows 98, and Lotus SmartSuite Millenium Editions for only $105? He also stated that Windows 98, McAfee VirusScan 4.02, Quicken Basic 99, and Corel WordPerfect Suite 8 were all purchased for $205.

These prices are probably obtainable using UPgrade software editions, and mail-in rebates. Yet copyright laws state that the original software must be kept with upgrade software as if they were one license. You can not install an older version, upgrade it, and give/sell the older version with the old computer. This eliminates handing down old computers with software, and donating computers with old software -- which are what most people do with old computers. It is this inability to use upgrades without keeping the old software that raised the "unrealistic" topic for me.

Do other SOHO programmers and consultants find that people discard their old computers? or do you clients, as mine, hand down old machines or use them for tax deductions?

Thanks for reading all the way through before responding.

[MadMax]

Go to http://www.pricewatch.com and search around for a few minutes. I think that you'll see that those prices are not unrealistic. Most walk-in retailers are charging outrageous prices for most titles. A little research shows that reasonable prices can be had via the internet.

The question of what is done with old computers...

My company uses them until they are dead or so obsolete that nobody would take them even if donated. Most of my old parts are scrapped out for recycling.

Regarding the statement about the quality of do it yourself machines...

Pre-built computers under $5,000.00 are complete garbage. The manu's cut costs by selling low quality parts somewhere (everywhere) in the machine. The software is usually 90% worthless and tech support is a joke. Hardware upgrades usually end in a proprietary nightmare with company exec's deciding to purchase entire replacement systems rather than upgrading existing machines. These machines NEVER live up their advertisment billing. A solid technician can build a top quality computer for a fraction of the price of "Platinum" level pre-builds and can tailor the machine to his specific performance requirements.

IMHO, big brand computer manu's are more adept at ripping off the public than auto makers, and that's saying something. Most people could never build their own car.

[dawgtuff]

Amen Max!
CPU-Doug,If you buy from an independant shop-be careful.If the prices seem to be too good,they may be selling "remarked" CPU's.Ask to see the shipping invoice of their CPU's.After you buy,benchmark the system and compare it to other similar systems.If it doesn't compare-take it back...DawgTuff.

[KillerBug]

Actualy, my friend got a GW2K, I bought the case off of him for like $100 + my old case, it was the only good part! Anyway, his edition of windows 98 has not tech support, it is OEM, Gateway 200 will not support him, Microsoft will not support him. The included game disks had scratches, and would not load. Encartra 97 came with it, but he bought it in mid 98! He got DVD software, but as soon as he upgraded his vid. card it would not work. The only good peice of software was Home Essenials 98, but all he loaded was Word and Excell!

[Zonker]

I think there are two or three sides to this issue....

1. Someone who know nothing about computers will likely buy a complete system with software, for them it is the only rational choice.

2. There are both good and bad systems that can be bought, as well as being built by an individual. I've put together a couple clunkers thinking I knew what I was doing http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

3. I think the best system you can buy for under $2,000 is put together by an individual, not a company.

[CPU_Doug]

It is obvious that MadMax thinks everyone should build their own, or have computers specially built for them. I hear what you are saying about proprietary parts. However, that hasn't been a problem for me buying direct for over three years from a major OEM. I can pick and choose which pieces I want, even elect not to have pieces put in at all. Do I pay more? Yes, I know I do. But for me (a programmer) I don't want the hassle of getting inside the computer unnecessarily. Due to eye-surgury I have only full use of one eye for up-close hand-eye coordiation (within about 3-feet/1-meter). Working on pieces inside the computer would not be a joy for me. There are hundreds of other reasons I've heard from people for not wanting to get inside.

Also a computer does not become 'obsolete' just because it gets old. Computers become obsolete when they can no longer perform the functions they were purchased for. If you are a gamer, your machines will be obsolete faster than someone who uses a workstation for telecommuting or working at home. I have one machine (IBM) which is 6 years old. Its function is simply for quick notes, text e-mail, and entertaining my neices and nephews when they visit. Is it obsolete? Hardly! It does what I want it to do quite well. For personal use I have a custom built Pentium-II that matches benchmarks set by my "industry standard" OEM Pentium-III which I use to test software on "business standard" platforms. I also have an industry standard OEM Pentium for the same purpose. The custom built is my digital photo and graphics machine. I just wish I had more free time to play around on it.

So far as average users not knowing the difference between a hard drive (storage) and RAM (memory); the vast majority don't care. As the commercial on TV says, "How does pop-corn pop? Who cares?" I don't know how my television converts radio signals into sound and video, and I don't care. What these two statements focus on is that mass-market OEMs fill an important need. Most people who buy from Gateway, Acer, Packard
Bell and others wouldn't even be using computers or e-mail if they first had to know something about what goes on inside. Just because I **can** write my own programs doesn't mean that I only use my own software on my computers. Heck, I wouldn't have time for clients if I did that.

In closing: Just because we CAN do a thing, doesn't mean we always should.

Next caller please...

[MadMax]

Ummm..I think that you repeated almost everything I said. I was just responding to the title of your thread and stating my position. No offence intended. Yes, I wish that everyone could build their own machine. I also realize that most people can't or don't for a variety of reasons and big-brands take advantage of that and offer bald-faced lies in their advertising to take those folks' money. Nothing more. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

Simple truth: You can build a better machine than you can buy pre-built for less money and upgrade the same machine later for less money.

BTW~I know what obsolete means. Ever tried to load W98 on a 286 or an 8088? It's also pretty difficult to run modern Office titles from DOS (Most administrative people are trained to use Win based titles not command line Word Perfect or the like). If you can't run common software or even give it away, that pretty much fits the definition.

I think that there are alot of mountain climbers in the world that would take exception to your closing statement. LOL http://www.sysopt.com/forum/biggrin.gif



[This message has been edited by MadMax (edited 07-02-99).]

[KillerBug]

Well, the TV antena collects the waves in a somewhat Mourse code like formula, this is converted to a signal inside the TV, the various buttins decide what part of the signal to use, when it selects that, it than tells the Speeker setup how high to go while sending a code to the back of the TV, where there is a device much like in a computer monitor that shoots different collored light at the magneticly coated glass you see the picture on! I would not build one, mainly because in a computer not only is everything designed for the average iddiot to use, but the highest voltage is 12v, not 110 v! I beleive if someone is thinking of dropping 10 grand, they might as well read a few pages, Like this:

RAM: 64mb for general use, 128-256 for games

CPU: 300mhz for general, 450mhz-550mhz for games.

Hard Drive: 10gb

CD: DVD 3x, generation 3

Power: 300 watt

Video: Voodoo3 2000, Voodoo3 3000, or TNT2 must be AGP

Sound: 32 bit

Modem: 56K hard modem, PCI

So you memorize that, walk in to the store, blare that off at the sales person, and they asume you know what you are talking about, and they get the stuff.

[LJE2]

As MadMax pointed out I can built a far superior system for a lot less money doing it myself, Is this for everybody of course not, but if I choose not to get ripped off by some giant conglomerate that only cares about it's bottom line don't try to fault me for it, If everyone chose to live by your motto "Just because we CAN do a thing, doesn't mean we always should" we wouldn't even be having this discussion, We would still be riding a horse and buggy.

[Ygor]

I agree with Zonker. I just wanted to add that once someone finds out the limitations of most mass-produced & marketed computers, they have another choice to make: continuing to support that, or to do some more research and build their own to meet their needs.

Few want to hear that the system they spent up to $3000 or so on a year or 2 ago can't be upgraded. As long as the major manufacturers continue their proprietary motherboard and case designs, they will have that segment that can be led to replace every 2 or 3 years.

Some will "graduate" to either build their own or have one built by a local shop. Processor changes may necessitate major upgrades at about the same intervals, but that choice is still there, rather than complete replacement.

Kudos to this site and those who frequent it for the wealth of information that maintains that freedom of choice, and self-defense against being taken to the cleaners by technology that makes some feel helpless otherwise!

[MadMax]

I agree with Zonker as well. With this caviot: Just because the user/buyer doesn't know any better, doesn't make the quality AND performance differential between custom builds and pre-builds any less real. Sure, most people that buy/use computers don't know or even care about performance as long as the thing turns on and they can say that they have some buzzword components. Knowing something about PCs myself, I believe that big-brands are reaping huge profits due to an ignorant customer base. I just look at a P3 450 that I have built for use as a simple workstation and a "P3 450" from GW2K. The Gateway might have the same type of cpu but the similarities end right there. My machine blows the pre-build away in every performance catagory for 1/3 the cost AND I won't have s**tcan 90% of the hardware for an upgrade. I use the $5,000.00 cut-off to eliminate all pc's except file servers and high end graphics stations. These are the only catagories of pc that big brands truly support with something besides "Run the System Recovery Disk" or similar, useless in the real world, "tech support". I agree with most that kind of support is great for the average user that doesn't know that "memory" has nothing to do with hard drive space but it doesn't help folks that depend on their machines when they have a real problem.

Sorry for the rant, I just hate big-brands. They don't have to be that way, they choose to be that way.

[Carlos Kerr]

Good Morning All! This thread is pretty interesting. Lately I have been battling the "was it really worth it" syndrome. And after reading this thread I have to say YES! A little background info is in order I believe: Apart from watching a friend add a Creative Labs cd rom, awe64, and speakers to my wife's 486 Compaq [that was a trip in itself!], I had NO experience with pcs at all. In March I purchased a Packard Bell tower from my son's friend for $150. It had a pent.150,6x cd rom, 24mb ram, and on board snd. and video. I am typing this on an AMDk6-2 350mhz based machine that I "built" from the "case-up". This machine has: dfi p5bv3+ mb, 64mb pc100, 48x cdrom, CL Live! Value, CL Banshee, Aopen 56k modem, and a 17" monitor. By using some stuff I was able to pick up at work, I put together a second system based on a PR300 IBM cpu, with 64mb pc100, 24x cdrom, "dual floppies" [why? because they were there!], 8mb agp video, AWE64 sound and an old 449e Nokia 15" monitor. Obviously not "BRAGGING" pcs, but working pcs they are! I have said all this as a testimony to this Site as much as validation of the idea that an individual with an interest and guidance can produce an extremely competive, if not superior product for much less than you would think. Total investment for all the above was less than $2000 including games, software, scanner, speakers, trac-ball, etc., etc., etc. Many thanks to Sys-Opt and it's members for making it so! BTW-as a result of this exposure I am currently enrolled in a Network engineering course and looking forward to "getting into the field".

[DavidX]

LJE2
No, we wouldn't have invented the buggy and we probably wouldn't have even got around to taming the horse! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

[Zonker]

The Value of Time

I'm sure that if you looked around you could find a local store or even a web dealer to put together just the system you wanted, load the operating system and whatever applications you wanted and give you one place to go for any warranty service you might need.

There is a value associated with this service. In my opinion, that is the difference in price between what you can buy all the pieces for and what an assembled system costs.

To some, obviously millions, this is a fair deal.

I think most of the people who visit BBS' like this are folks like me, who like to play with the guts, so obviously home built should win the debate here http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif