What's The Chance?

[labrune]

I'm wanting to install a second hard drive and someone told me that I need to make sure I'm grounded when I do this. If I have the pc unplugged, is there any chance of me being fried? I thought as long as I have the power plug out of the pc I'm ok. Am I right?

Thanks.........
LB

[MadMax]

You need to be discharged to protect your circuitry, not you. Your body will store a static charge (ever gotten shocked when you walk across carpet in socks and then touched something?) and you can damage ic chips if you discharge static electricity into them from your body.

1: Leave the power cable plugged in. This gives you a good earth ground to your box. If you unplug it, any grounding that you may have left is unreliable.

2: When you sit down to open your case, physically touch the metal frame of your case with your bare hand. This will discharge any static charge that your body may be storing. This will only work reliably if you leave the power cable plugged in and the outlet that it's plugged in to has a good earth ground leg (the third hole in the socket). You may or may not get shocked (minor little zap) when you touch the case frame but you WILL discharge yourself and in so doing you will protect your equipment. Touch the case with bare skin and do it often if you are getting up and walking around while your case is open.

The only two components that you really need to worry about getting zapped by are your power supply and your monitor. These components will drill you to the wall if you open them up and touch the wrong lead. This is true for your monitor even if it's unplugged (it stores a strong charge long after power has been removed). All other components won't shock you (unless you do something really dumb http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif), it's you that can shock them. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif



[This message has been edited by MadMax (edited 06-21-99).]

[labrune]

So, I'm suppose to leave the power plug is suppose to be left in. I was always told to unplug everything. Well, I'm not planning on messing with the power supply. I'm only installing a second hard drive.

Can a major shock happen? Just curious.....since I really thought that it was no big deal.
Thanks,
LB
labrune@industryinet.com

[MadMax]

No, a major shock can't happen. As long as you don't have the system energized. Just don't touch anything inside of the box when you have it powered up. Leave that power cable plugged in, it's your only reliable ground.

BTW~Unless you have some wierd power supply, you won't get a big shock even if you touch something when it's energized (unpleasant, maybe but not really painful or life threatening). You will probably damage some circuitry, though.

[labrune]

Oh, ok.........thank you. By the way, how hard is it to install a second hard drive. I've heard some say it's horrible and then there are those that say it's a snap.

So, I'm a little uneasy about doing this. I'm going to keep my original as my master and the new drive as my slave.

Thanks again,
LB

[MadMax]

An IDE controller is capable of handling up to 4 different drives at once. It's broken down this way: Primary {IDE 0}(Two drives/one cable) and Secondary {IDE 1}(Two drives/one cable). The drives on either primary or secondary channels are configured for priority with jumpers (master/slave). Normally, your "C:" drive is the Primary/Master drive. CD-ROM is usually either Primary/Slave or Secondary/Slave. So you can have the following setups:

Primary Channel
Prim/Master only.
Prim/Slave only.
Prim/Master with slave.

Secondary Channel
Sec/Master only.
Sec/Slave only.
Sec/master with slave.

If you are going to install a new drive, determine which ide positions are available in your sys (Prim/Sec + Master/Slv), set your master/slv jumpers on your new hdd to what you need (most drives are configured stand-alone (single drive with no slave) from the factory, attach the ide and power cable. Start your computer, go to bios, run ide autodetect if you have that option or set your new drive parameters to "auto" for that drive position (prim/sec + mast/slv) in standard cmos settings. Save/exit bios, boot, run fdisk, change drives (you start on your "c:\" drive by default in fdisk, change to your new drive) from menu, check partition (make sure there isn't one or you could be shooting yourself in the foot), make a new partition, exit fdisk, reboot. Run fdisk, change drives, verify new partition is still there, exit. Run format d:, run scandisk d:. Check device manager for Win9X probs. No problems...you're done! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/biggrin.gif

[labrune]

I'm installing a second drive that will act as my slave. Please tell me that instructions come w/it. I'm keeping my original drive as my master and installing a second hard drive that is my slave. Does that help explain what I want to do? I'm not taking out my original drive just adding a second one.

Thanks for all the advice.

[labrune]

I will have to check my bios to see what my c drive and my cd rom are set on. I think for sure my c drive is Primary Master and Primary Slave is None but let me check first. Then you will know a little more info on my situation. I don't want to end up formating my c drive. Wow, that would be a mess.

LB

[MadMax]

Backup a little further...You can have two slaves, a primary/slave and/or a secondary/slave. My original suggestion was for you to install your new drive as the secondary/master. This will allow you to install it without having to mess with the jumpers on your old hard drive (the primary/master). Most hard drives come with instructions but they are usually pretty lame. Get out your mainboard manual and look at the section that describes the ide controller. That will give you a better picture of what I am talking about. Also look at this link, http://www.hardwarecentral.com/hardwarecentral/tutorials/31/1/

[labrune]

Ha, well, I looked at my bios and my Primary Master is my c drive and nothing on Primary Slave. Then my cd rom is secondary master and nothing on secondary slave.

So, now you are telling me that if I want to install a second hard drive that I will have to mess w/my jumper setting on my c drive and on the second drive?

[MadMax]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, if you insist on using the Primary IDE channel. So, instead of taking a chance of screwing up your C: drive jumper settings and not being able to boot your system, why not restrict your "tweaking" to the Secondary channel and only mess with your cd-rom master/slave jumpers? You MUST alter the jumpers on either the c: drive or the cd-rom to install your new hard drive. Set your new drive to Master w/slave (with the jumpers on the drive) and set your cd-rom to slave (with the jumper on the cd-rom), plug in the extra ide connector (the SECONDARY channel the cd-rom is using) to the new hard drive and go from there.

This way, you'll end up with:

Primary Master=Your old Hard Drive
Primary Slave=None
Secondary Master=Your new Hard Drive
Secondary Slave=Your cd-rom.

The installation you are talking about will give you:

Primary Master=Your old Hard Drive
Primary Slave=Your new Hard Drive
Secondary Master=Your cd-rom
Secondary Slave=None.

This installation will force you to alter a known good jumper parameter on your boot drive, a dicey proposal for a newbie to hardware. Leave the old hard drive alone and alter the cd-rom settings, you can live without that drive for awhile. You can't live without the boot drive.


[This message has been edited by MadMax (edited 06-21-99).]

[This message has been edited by MadMax (edited 06-21-99).]

[labrune]

Oh boy.............does it explain about chaning cd rom jumpers w/the new installation of the hard drive. So basically what you are saying is I need to change my jumpers on my cd rom and then use the ide controller in the cd rom and put in my new hard drive and use the ide controller into my cd rom? Now these 2 slave ide controllers are on a separate ribbon from my master. Just checking......why can't I have my new drive as primary slave and just set the jumpers on the new drive and leave everything else alone? I'm new at this so please bare w/me.
I also must tell you that as far as having any type of manual separate for my cd rom or original hard drive is not available. I have an Hewlett Packard and there isn't much info in the manual about installing second hard drives or switching the cd rom. It basically tells you how to remove the drive cage and that's it.

Also if this helps. I have 2 ide cables. One has a master ide controller which is running to my hard drive and then the other ide cable has 2 ide slave connectors on it but I guess you already know that much.

[This message has been edited by labrune (edited 06-21-99).]

[This message has been edited by labrune (edited 06-21-99).]

[MadMax]

It's alright man, we all had to start somewhere. Check some of my "Help ME!" gasps in the Networks section...lol

The IDE controller is basically stupid. The only settings that will work are the ones I listed in my 4th post. Those and NO OTHERS. You can't have "Master with no slave" set and then add a slave.

Your old hard drive is set to master with no slave right now. You would have to change that to master with slave to add another drive on the same IDE (Primary) cable. If you don't, the system will either lock at the drive detection phase of boot, or you won't gain access to those two drives. Since we are talking about the channel your c: drive is using, this means your computer won't boot.

Also hard drive jumper blocks are usually MUCH more complex than a cd-rom jumper block. Read this last as "Easier to screw up."

The jumper block on your cd-rom will be on the back, near where the ide cable and power cable plug in. There will only be one jumper and 3 possible settings:

Master
Slave
Cable Select

Right now, you are on "Master". Simply move the little jumper to "Slave" and your done with that part of the equation. Now, configure your new hard drive jumper(s). It's not that simple with a hard drive. Figure out your jumper block diagram (either with the manual or the diagram printed on the hard drive itself) and set it to "Master with Slave". Is this getting any clearer?


[This message has been edited by MadMax (edited 06-21-99).]

[labrune]

Oh, ok......I think I follow you now. Let me ask you this. Having my second drive as secondary master will it affect the speed of my computer? Also, what about my cd rom will it affect the speed or assign a new drive letter?

[LJE2]

MadMax
Well done

labrune
I should let MadMax answer he's got you this far but, I'll go ahead.
No adding the new hard drive as the secondary master will not affect the the speed of your computer or your CD ROM drive, yes it will effect the drive letter for your CD Rom drive, your new hard drive will be D: and your CD ROM will be E: (this is assuming there are no other drives connected and the old letter for you CD ROM drive was D) Windows automatically assigns drive letters to hard drives first and then CD ROM drives

[labrune]

Well right now I have my c drive then my cd rom is M and I have a cd writer but it is in a parallel port so that shouldn't be affected.

Thank you............like I said I'm new to all this. Now I will have to go in my bios and set this all up? However, I don't have the drive yet..I just want to know what is all involved.

[This message has been edited by labrune (edited 06-21-99).]

[MadMax]

LJE2~TKS http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

labrune~A little more info...
IDE hard drives will always take the NEXT avail logical drive letter, starting w/ "c"(c,d,e,etc...).
So if you have "c:" installed already, your next hdd partition will be "d:" and then "e:" and so forth...If you happen to have another drive assigned to a letter that is next in line after your last hard drive (like "d:" for a cd-rom after "c:" hard drive), that drive will be bumped to the next avail drive letter whether it's on the onboard IDE controller or not(you mentioned an external cd player).

Yes, after you're finished with the physical installation of the hdd and have your jumpers set correctly, you must assign the drive parameters in bios(autodetect or manually). Only then will you have access to your new drive from the OS.

[labrune]

Well right now I have my c drive then my cd rom is M and my cd writer is D
so what will happen with my cd writer? I really don't want my cd writer reassigned. I have stuff installed to discs that will look for the D.

[DavidX]

MadMax
When's your sainthood coming through? http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by DavidX (edited 06-21-99).]

[labrune]

I can't manually assign my second drive letter as E?

My sainthood? You lost me on that one......

[MadMax]

Davidx~I'm remembering Kung-Fu, "Patience, Grasshopper." http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

labrune~No, you can't force a hard drive to skip a drive letter in favor of another type of drive. (Not really, but it's a pretty technical procedure.) The easiest way to deal with the app situation is to reinstall the app and that will change the source drive to the new letter. Or, if you're comfortable with hacking, change the source drives in the registry.

Good luck, don't get discouraged and keep asking questions. I've got to go but I'll be back. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[labrune]

Ok, well, I was able to change my cd writer drive letter. I changed it to G. I thought that would be good enough. Alright, so am I set now? I mean...........now I need to actually go out and buy my hard drive huh? That's so funny, I'm asking all these questions and I don't even have one in my hand. Ok so when I mess w/my Cd rom what will happen to it's drive letter. Right now it is M........will it change as well?

Well I'll keep asking questions because you've helped out a great deal.

Thank you very much

[MadMax]

Do you have two IDE channels? If you do(all modern o/b ide cntrlrs do) make the new drive the master on the Secondary channel.
That way, if you make a mistake, all you have to do is unplug the new drive. You won't have to mess with the jumpers on your primary hdd. Good luck, http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[labrune]

You lost me on the IDE channels. I have IDE cables...........one is a master and then I have 2 slave IDE cables.

I thought I would just plug in one of the ide slave cables into the second hard drive and then set it up in my bios or whatever the instructions say to do.

LB

[labrune]

Nope, nothing is occupying D. So, now I guess I need to go out and buy the hard drive huh? How funny......I'm still afraid of doing this myself but you said I need to change my jumper settings on my cd rom huh? Will the drive letter on my rom change as well?

Should I do that now even though I don't have my hard drive yet?

How do I know what my secondary ide channel or cable is? Is it the cable attached to the cd rom right now?

Thanks for answering all these stupid questions for a computer newbie.

[This message has been edited by labrune (edited 06-22-99).]

[MadMax]

If you don't have anything using drive letter "d:" then your new hdd will take that logical letter. And then "e:" and so forth...

[DavidX]

labrune
May I step in here (although MadMax is doing a magnificent job)?

Pop down to your local bookstore and see if one of the PC magazines has an article on "Installing a new hard drive" (it's a constantly recurring topic in PC magazines). Buy a copy and read it thoroughly. Failing that, borrow a book on computer upgrades from your local library. Even a fairly old book will do; the basic methods haven't changed much in the last few years.

That way, you'll have something that this forum cannot give you: pictures or diagrams. They speak louder than words. (Plus you'll be giving MadMax a break!)

As regards asking advice in forums (any forum), I find it pays to do as much of your own research first, especially about basic stuff like installing a hard drive, and then, if there's still something you're not clear on, come to the forum and ask. To be honest, it's not really fair to expect someone here to guide you through basic procedures that you should have taken the trouble to research for yourself by simply reading magazines or books which are readily available http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

Happy reading!

I should also mention that there are some excellent websites devoted to basic PC upgrading and the like. And they often have good pictures and diagrams. I can't remember their addresses offhand but maybe someone else here can point in the right direction?

Here's one: www.css.msu.edu/PC-Guide3.cfm#hardrive (http://www.css.msu.edu/PC-Guide3.cfm#hardrive) . There are better ones though!

[This message has been edited by DavidX (edited 06-23-99).]

[dawgtuff]

Thought I'd add something to the beginning of this thread.When you "ground" yourself,make sure what you touch is not painted or coated.Touch a screw head on the case frame to be sure of a proper ground.

[labrune]

Well, since it's obvious that I have been asking way to many questions I will stop. I will add that I have printed out tons of web pages and I wanted to speak to someone one on one. The advice that MadMax gave me I have not read in any of the research I have done and so I would like to thank you MadMax for all the help. Secondly, installing a hard drive and installing a second hard drive are somewhat different in procedures.

This is my last reply to this web page.

Thanks once again for all the advice.

[This message has been edited by labrune (edited 06-23-99).]

[Ed_S]

Take a bow, MadMax! Good job well done, you deserve a patience award.

APPLAUSE APPLAUSE

labrune - no offense intended, we all had to learn somehow, but DavidX is right, the illustrations in a book make a world of difference. Some of these concepts can be hard to grasp without visual aids, but become easy with them. Best way is probably hands-on, but don't try it first time on a machine you depend on! At least not without knowledgable help. My first time to add a HD took 3 hrs with help. Probably would have taken him 20 minutes without me!

[MadMax]

Thank you, everyone, for your kind words of praise! It's very gratifying to receive that kind of support from the regular denizens of the best bbs online. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

Some thoughts...I know just how labrune feels. Many, many publications about computer hardware and upgrade procedures can read like Greek to a newbie. Sometimes just talking to someone that can translate the "mysterious" into normal-speak is all that it takes to gain some confidence. I would like to concur with all of the suggestions to go for the hard copy book. Then, armed with a technical reference and some good old advice from the world's best bbs, anyone can perform minor upgrades to their computer.

Just trying to do my part to help this small online neighborhood be a place of "friendly" knowledge. I saw an opportunity to help someone in an area that I know fairly well and I helped out. I know that you guys will throw a life-line to me if I'm drowning in the sea of technology. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by MadMax (edited 06-24-99).]

[jayzad]

MadMax I think this is what
it is all about. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[socalgal]

Just read this thread. Well done, MadMax! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[DavidX]

Hmmm . . . In retrospect, perhaps I was a little harsh. After all, discussing computers and asking questions about them is what this forum is all about.

It's just that I find that it is best to first read up as much as I can on the basics for myself and then to ask questions. That way, I am better prepared for any advice and better able to understand it when my questions are answered.

The basic procedures of things like upgrading the RAM, installing expansion cards, changing the processor and installing a second hard drive are topics that are very widely covered in magazines, websites, manuals and books. The procedures are fairly standard but quite complex and involved; they do take alot of lengthy explaining and are best accompanied by illustrations. Forums are not the ideal medium. It is certainly true that books or magazine articles may not cover some points but I personally find it best to make sure that I properly understand what was in the publication first and only then go to a forum and ask questions about those specific points that were unclear or that the publication missed out.

As MadMax said, we all have to start somewhere and perhaps I've forgotten just how daunting some of the technical phrases can be to the uninitiated. I must admit that tinkering with computers can be a little hair-raising at times if you really don't know what you're doing.

MadMax
Regarding your sainthood: I think it may be a thumbs-up from the Vatican. (Of course, unfortunately you'll have to wait until after you're dead. Bit of a bummer! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif )

DavidX

[This message has been edited by DavidX (edited 06-24-99).]

[Ed_S]

DavidX - You may have been slightly harsh, but somebody had to do it! He'll never really learn until he puts down the keyboard & picks up a screwdriver with a manual in hand and (hopefully) help at his side. It'll all start to make sense when it's in front of him, but without seeing it he's got little chance of real understanding, although I understand his wanting to learn as much as possible first.