Problem with onboard-video

[Patrick2]

hi,:confused:
i tried to install a Creative Geforce2MX (PCI) on a MS-5187 Mainboard (MVP4 chipset), but the onboard video is still in the Device-manager and the new Geforce2 runs very slow
I did these steps:
I installed standard pci drivers for onboard video
In Bios I set "init first display" from AGP(onboard) to PCI and "Framebuffersize" from 8MB to N/A. thes two settings are the only i can find for graphics in the bios. There is no Jumper on the board to disable VGA.
Then I shut down the PC, built in the Geforce and installed the drivers for it, but now i have both Standard pci and Geforce2MX in the device manager. Disabling standard pci didn't help.
I tried different drivers for the Geforce, did a biosupdate (V1.3), did a fresh windows-install, installed Via4in1 4.33.
Windows is 98SE, CPU is K6-2 500MHz.

For the case i have to change the Mobo: is the Gigabyte GA-7zm any good? (It has to be microATX with NO onboard-VGA)
Thanks for help patrick

[Peter M]

This is normal with modern integrated-VGA chipsets. They are multi-display capable and don't disable their internal VGA when you add another PCI VGA. The benefit is you can use both, drawback is that the integrated VGA still hogs some RAM bandwidth.

Solution: Set the integrated VGA to the lowest possible resolution and color depth if you're not using it, or make the OS ignore it altogether (in Windows, set to "Disabled in this hardware configuration" in Device Manager; in Linux, simply don't load a driver for it).

regards, Peter

[R|sc_982]

i've got a 5187, and currently using the onboard graphics, (which is rubbish for UT!!) and had to test a friends graphics card on PCI, and found that it had my onboard drivers still there, but i didn't worry about it, and it worked anyway, what is your PCI GF like? because i was going to get a PCI one, but wasn't sure what it is like, so i'm just going to wait for the nFORCE to be released with it's onboard GF2 mx. :p :p

[Patrick2]

:(
First of all thanks for your support,
@Peter:
quote:"Solution: Set the integrated VGA to the lowest possible resolution and color depth if you're not using it, or make the OS ignore it altogether (in Windows, set to "Disabled in this hardware configuration" in Device Manager;

That is exactly what i did by first installing Standard drivers (640x480 4bit), i also disabled the internal drivers in the hardwareconfig.
But the Geforce still runs much to slow. Same Problem with a Voodoo3-PCI. Btw, it's a friends PC (AMD K6-2 500), but I have tested a Hercules Geforce2MX(AGP) and a Voodoo3(AGP) before in a P3 500 PC and it had about double or more Fps in the tested Games (GrandPrixLegends, Nascar4).
As i know, PCI shouldn't be much slower than AGP, just a few Fps, so i still think the board is the Problem.

@R/sc_982: as you see, i couldn't get to run the Geforce properly and so i can't tell you if it's good or not. (I think it should be ;)

Thank you anyway, i think i just have to try another board, but don't know what's a good microATX-board. I thought of the Gigabyte GA-7 ZM

[Peter M]

PCI GeForce is a lot slower than AGP - simply because PCI slots don't provide as much power as AGP 2.0 slots do, meaning that PCI graphics cards can't be clocked as high as AGP cards, and can't have as much RAM either.

Regarding new MicroATX boards, you need to keep in mind that you'll need at least a 300W power supply - and your old mATX box probably has something around 150 Watt.

But if you want to go that route, keep an eye on new stuff like PC-Chips M831 aka ECS K7S5M - it's the mATX lil' sister of the popular and fast K7S5A aka M830. This is a current board with a fast chipset and DDR RAM support, and as far as I can see the fastest mATX board around.

regards, Peter

[Patrick2]

Dind't think of the power supply until now!
The label schows max. output 112W -lol-
Could that be a problem for the Voodoo3 or Geforce?
I tested the Voodoo3pci (in friends PC), and it was not half as fast than my V3agp was in my PC, both 500Mhz.

Here are som benchmarks i found, PCI vs. AGP. They show, that voodoo5 PCI is only a little slower than the AGP Version.
Voodoo5 AGP vs. PCI (http://www.chickshardware.com/html/articles/v5pcivsagp/4.html)

btw, i just wanted to get this PC running for as less as money as possible, my friend was about to smash it on the wall...
But I see, i need a cheap mATX board, a cheap Duron 800, a new powersupply... hm...
Not as easy as I told him:)

[Patrick2]

P.s.
Is it possible that the Graphicscards are much faster with the PIII 500 than with the AMG K6-2 500?
regards patrick

[otaku]

First of all, framebuffersize has nothing to do with the onboard video. Second, generally onboard video cards are disabled by setting jumpers on the motherboard. Try to look at one of this jumpers or check your motherboard manual.

[Peter M]

115W PSU will be a problem with anything beyond socket 7.

Voodoos, regarding PCI vs AGP performance, are different - they don't make use of AGP technology AT ALL, and also aren't quite as power hungry as all the other stuff.

And yes, you need to balance CPU and graphics card performance so you don't end up with one of them twiddling thumbs. Faster CPU won't help with a slow graphics card, and a brandnew high end graphics card won't make a K6-2 perform any miracles either.

That's the art in building an adequate system - balancing stuff to meet the performance needs and budget constraints. And that's also where many prebuilt systems suck - lots of CPU power because MHz are what sells to Joe Average, and underperforming stuff around it to keep the price low.

regards, Peter

[Patrick2]

Thank's a lot for all the information so far!
Btw, i just read about the Creative Geforce2MX, that it has only a 64bit memorybus instead of 128bit for usual Gf2MX, poor piece of sh..
Patrick
@otaku: believe me, i checked the manuals before i posted in this forum;)

[R|sc_982]

the PCI GF2 has only 32Mb of SDR Ram (Single Data Rate) which is twice as slow as the newer AGP GF2mx's because of there DDR Ram, but PCI is a hell of a lot slower than AGP, because that PCI runs at 33 MHz, not total sure what AGP is, 133 i think, so that why it will run very rubbish, plus "otaku", there is no jumper to disable onboard VGA, cos it is bios enabled, but the onboard still comes up in device manager, and shouldn't affect the overall performance. :p

[Peter M]

Risc, the bus speed on AGP is 66 MHz for command and 3D geometry data transfers. The 2x and 4x transfers only happen on texture fetches from main RAM - and these hardly ever happen anyway.

The lower bus speed is hardly noticeable, just a few percent. But as you noticed on your own already, PCI cards usually have lower performance parts on. This is done to stay within the allowed power budget for a PCI slot.

Patrick, there are three flavors of Geforce2MX. The original MX which is 128-bit, and the newer MX-400 which is a higher clocked MX, plus the MX-200 which is a 64-bitty, lower clocked stripdown of MX-400.

regards, Peter

[R|sc_982]

i don't know much about AGP, cos i have only PCI G'Cards, but the 133 was a guess, thanx for that info Peter :) :)