What's wrong with Intel?

[thxmanu]

Can't hang? Afraid of AMD?

[jad1097]

AMD is pushing them too hard!

Intel has never had any real competition in the desktop market and now that they do it appears they can't handle the pressure.

[Fingers]

I'd say it is marketing pressure, both from AMD and from fickle PC manufacturers who will equip their boxes with whichever processor gives them 33MHZ more that particular week.

AMD will stumble too, but as long a Intel keeps trying to run before it can walk, AMD isn't under much pressure to stay ahead.

[Win_98]

They're trying hard to put AMD out of competition and they will do anything to achieve it even making future cpu that they planned 2 year from here. I think they have a nervous breakdown, and AMD is going to rub even more salt in with their new K8 before even Intel releases their PIV.

[desmocat]

It does kind of seem to me that as of late, AMD is mandating when and how new cpu's are being released,by both companies.. They have Intel in a bad way,forcing them to go to a release schedule that maybe they are not ready to take on just to keep bragging rights on who has the fastest chip this week.

I guess in business, that would be a good position to be in(forcing your competition to adhere to YOUR timetable) in that you know what your company is capable of, and having your major competitor jump thru hoops and bring things out ahead of schedule even if they might not be fully tested and all the bugs worked out.
Pretty smart in my book....

[This message has been edited by desmocat (edited 09-29-2000).]

[NDC]

I also think that this sudden competition my AMD is making them do a half-*** jobs on their products. They just want to be the first release a new product. A very bad reputation they've been getting lately. Hopefully they'll get their act together soon. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif Personally, I like Intel. They've been very righteous to me so far. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

BTW, I heard that some of their new CPU's won't be SMP enabled. What the heck kinda improvement is that???

[This message has been edited by NDC (edited 09-29-2000).]

[Dputiger]

See, here's the confusing part.

AMD is obviously putting pressure on Intel in the desktop market.

But, in the business market, until JUST now, AMD has had NO competitive products. Even now, AMD won't truly be ready to enter the business market for another three or four months. When I say business I mean the high-end workstation/server market.

The P-IV is a high-end business product, as is Itanium. So what's wrong here?

[NDC]

Isn't AMD's "Hammer" that is to be released shortly the competition to Intel Itanium? I heard that Hammer is also supposed to be 64bit processor.

[Mr.Goodbytes]

You got it. It's 64 bit, but also supports x86 and 32 bit which Itanium did not. Also, in prerelease, it is relatively stable. This is an area in which the Intel project is failing...badly. Nothing like having 2 years in a row a chipset recalled (or at least severely delayed) before release. Also, this is the second time in a row that Intel has whiffed.

[Dputiger]

At most BBS's this topic wouldn't have a chance in hell of staying civil, but I'm betting us Sysoptians can do it.

Here's my question. Here's how Intel stands today:

Pentium III: Topped @ 1 gigahertz, supposed to roll on .13 micron process in Q4.

Pentium IV: Delayed again, might roll Nov 20th.

Itanium: Cancelled, McKinley taking its place.

Tinma: Cancelled.

In addition, the i850 chipset is reported as unstable.

There's more at work here than just competition from AMD. While it's possible that AMD's ramping of the desktop market pushned the Pentium III too hard too fast, that says nothing about the P-IV, Itanium, and Tinma, plus other chipset troubles.

So what's going on at Intel?

[Wiruz]

NDC - yup, with x86 support as far as i know.
The hammer is really going to kick ***

btw - some of the AMD engineers are ex-alpha guys - that ought to help

I really need to buy some shares....

~Wiruz

[embalmerd]

Backward compatability(64/32 bit)is the real issue here.

And it may also be that bigger,better,and faster hardware has hit a wall. People are tired of shelling out thousands of dollars for something that will be obsolete in six months. All the major manufacturers took a hit on Wall St. yesterday, due to lagging sales. Perhaps what most consumers really want is a faster internet connection.

DEAD MAN WALKING

[CMonster]

Well said ! embalmerd, Well said!

I am surprized at how the tide has turned - the tide of opinion that is - Why 2 years ago most BBSs (Sysopt Included) were full of people saying things like

"Intel will always be on top, I doubt that AMD will ever give them any serious competition."

Now I see some of those very same people (not necessarily referring to this thread) talking like they were AMD underdogs all along. Hmmm?

[Ultima]

Not only is the Itanium a bad chip, but it was so unstable that they can't even get it clocked higher then 800Mhz!!!

That's pethatic, 800Mhz?? PIII's and Athlon's would outperform it by a longshot.

And even at 800 Mhz the Itanium wasn't even 100% stable.
And even if it can be done as they would want, at 1.4 and 1.5Ghz, it will probably still be outrun by the Hammer, cause the Hammer is 32 and 64 bit compatible, Itanium only 64.

It would have to recalculate every 32 bits instruction, causing major performance loss.

Pim

[Dputiger]

I guess I'm not being clear--I apologize.

I know the issues--I know the technology. What I want to know is WHY!

The whole "AMD makes Intel compete and they never had to before" argument simply doesn't explain all the data.

What I want to know is: Why is Itanium unstable? Why are all their major products delayed? Why can't Intel, who only three years ago made the best processor on the planet, bar none, simply ship a product?

I know WHAT's going on. I simply don't understand why.

[NDC]

I think Intel might be wondering the same thing! LOL http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[bhess]

I think that it's hard to see anything in those funny colored "spacesuits" they have to wear like in those commercials. And having to dance around doesn't help either.
my $.02
http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/biggrin.gif

[techs]

My 2 cents. remember how long the p233mmx was the top of the line? it wasn't until the k6-2 was coming out that the p2 came out(rushed, i think they would have liked to avoid slot1, gone straight to ppga).This should have been a clue that they were not the company people thought they were. When you are the only game in town, and have as long as you need to develop your product you live in one world. When you suddenly have to change to a competitive world you have all sorts of problems(can you say former Soviet Union?).Plus i believe Intel saw the home pc market as an eventual money loser(or at least a lot less profitable)in a competiive situation, so they focused on the high end. In order to distinguish themselves from AMD, they went to Rambus way before SDRAM had maxed out. Way bad move. Changed chipset design to hub architecture before their current design had maxed out. Their high end chip design is late because, well it is late. Another problem looming is their 64bit chip not running 32bit apps as well as p3 on a clock for clock basis.
When a company goes from 90 percent of the mobo chip market to less than 50 percent in two years it takes a lot of factors. The final factor? Andy Grove saying bye bye...

[scotter]

the really simple answer is this AMD is still kind of small, they have put all there efforts into one thing building the best chip they can and are doing a really good job at it.

Intel is a giant company with to much going on at any one time. look at all the stuff intel makes all the R&D, manufacturing, etc, etc, there chain of command must be stagering not to mention the amount of paper work getting sent all over the place.

plus as stated above they have had no real competition at all. Now there such a big, slow and complacted company that they have no idea how to step back and regroup

they need some new people to take charge and and bring fresh Ideas in to the system.
and they need to stop trying to be #1 all the time at all things.

well anyway thats just my opinion http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[embalmerd]

What it all boils down to is the fact that:

Intel wants to be seen as the elite leader in the newest technology market. Their RDram debacle sent them plummeting, while AMD worked in cooperation with producers of existing technology that proved to be superior and cheaper.

The whole hold up with the P4 is the fact that it wouldn't be backward compatible with 32 bit apps. AMD recognized this and came up with the solution. Intel just doesn't seem to have the consumer's pocket book in mind when it comes to advancing things. Perhaps they are starting to realize this now.

Dead Man Walking

[Win_98]

Intel try hard to be competitive but are falling behind in the megahertz race. Why? so they can charge more for their overpriced cpu otherwise no one would want to pay twice as much that is little slower then k7. If AMD can make faster chip and cheaper too which will almost put Intel out of business to the point of Cyrix syndrome. hehehehe.

[Win_98]

I think it has something to do with the rich get richer with all these monopoly way of controlling everything in the market. Just imagine how lame it would be if you only have Intel cpu to choose from. I miss the old day when you have Cyrix and Winchip to choose from as well. It would be funny to see AMD being on top and bumping Intel down to the bottom pit.

[BBA]

Actually, I htink Intel has been too arrogant.

They made a BIG mistake signing with Rambus!

If not for that one single fact, AMD would not even be in serious competition with Intel nearly as seriously as it is now.

The thing is, Intel wanted to run things it's own way, which involved signing with Rambus to exclusively produce chipsets designed on RAMBUS architecture...asnd Rambus would only sell to Intel.

Neither foresaw the dependancy the market would keep on SDRAM, so Intel has to work around the rambus contract to produce ANYTHING!

Well, If Rambus takes Intel down, I won't be surprised. It's Intel's own fault. I just hope I still get decent CPU prices in the future.

[Wiruz]

I've got mu first computer in ca. 1994, and i've never ever ever used an intel, always disliked them (never liked mainstream stuff)

my cpu's:
1994 586 - 100 (sold it)
1995/6 Cyrix 686-133 (oc'ed to 150 - i was proud)
1997/8 AMD K6 233
1999 AMD K6-2 450
1999 AMD K6-4 450

I am a true AMD Fanatic now, and always will be. Never had any bad expiriences with them.

I think AMD has always worked under a lot of pressure and were used to being in the shadow.

Intel has been able to "relax" and do things in a slow but safe way.

Remember how stable intels cpu's used to be compared to the competition? never saw a Cyrix server....

It all changed with the K6 really, it's 16 bit performance was lagging, but it handled 32 bit windows like a breeze, and that was at the time of Windows 95.

Now that intel suddenly had competition, they neede to stop relaxing, and turning their production into "competition mode".

That most be hard for a large company, who were used to developing in their own pace to suddenly have to push things ahead of schedule.

AMD on the otherhand, had been handled like that for years, so they were optimized for that sort of marketing - something Intel wasn't.

I think intel will slowly learn, and grow more optimized and will be able to be equal.

I Believe that they will co-exist equally in the end, but intel will take some crippling blows before they find the best way of doing it.

When you're at the top floor, the elavator only goes down, unless someone else builds extra floors for you...

Maybe it is true that the higher they are, the harder they fall.

~Wiruz

[bobcat]

Before Intel had the Celeron, their response to the low end market..."We didn't think anyone would want to buy a low end machine."

DOH!!!

The problem with all of Intel's product line is that they are being run by the marketers and not the engineers. Upper management does not want to hear some engineer say, it is going to take 3 years to develop this that or the other. So, the are rushed on everything and in the end = buggy product.

Intel has no competition @ the high end. Really? They had no competition at the low end and workstation either. Where are they? They sat on their butts with the low/workstation end and are now getting killed. The management of Intel knows that they can no longer assume that their competition will faulter as they had in the past. Therefor, they are pushing the to develop the products sooner than they should be. Thus all of these problems.

my 2cents

[CMonster]

techs - your CPU history is a bit rusty - the Pentium II was announced May 7, 1997. The AMD K6-2 (3D-Now) was not introduced until May 28, 1998 - over a year later.

Get full details here http://bwrc.eecs.berkeley.edu/CIC/

[conejo]

It is a rare thing to find a good employee. It is even more rare to find a good manager. To find a large company that appreciates their employees and understands that their ideas, their enthusiasm, and their dreams are the driving force of success for that company is nearly impossible. Intel is finding out the hard way that losing their best "peons" is more costly than losing their worst administrators.

P.S. Put that on the breakroom thought for the day!

[mudoggy]

<SNIP>"It is a rare thing to find a good employee. It is even more rare to find a good manager. To find a large company that appreciates their employees and understands that their ideas, their enthusiasm, and their dreams are the driving force of success for that company is nearly impossible. "

Well, I disagree with points one and two above, but I would say that point three has a lot of merit. Unfortunately. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[Dputiger]

Intel wants AMD alive and well, I think, but only to a point.

Basically, Intel liked AMD where it was three years ago--alive and technically releasing a product.

[The Highlander]

Remember one thing... There are 3 chocies but you can only take 2

Fast...
Cheap...
Good...

Cant pick the 3!!!!!

I've heard everybody say that AMD Athlon are faster than the p3... I personally have tested both... and I believe p3 are better chips just that the AMD is a more bang for the buck..well Intel not cheap!!

Intel will get around. So is AMD!!! The truth of it all is that intel is falling like Nissan did... They have good products but not good marketting nor making the time... AMD will not push down intel to Bankrupcy...

We just need to wait and see...

Sellers also like AMD because they can profit more from them...

[dbigman]

You must mean a noble gas, there is no such thing as a noble metal.

[DrCorvette]

caddmannq has a good point, the Boss wants things to look good on paper and they HOPE the thing will run when finished.

Where I work, my position has the same security level as a Nuclear Power Plant operator.

Management blows smoke about how we're gonna be "SAFE" and all this hoopla, then when the bottom line is at stake,,,, All the safety **** and procedure, government rules, OSHA laws, Federal Energy Regulatory Commission rules ALL GO OUT THE WINDOW.

They SLAM stuff together and just HOPE the thing works for a LITTLE while till the records can be fabricated just enough to cover their ***.

Intel and AMD work much the same, a razor thin line between death and profits.

There was much ado a few years back about Silicon Valley and the exposure of workers to vapors from Noble metals and other compounds such as arsenic and cyanide.

Since then it has all quieted down, much like the Karen Silkwood case, we hear some sh** like "in the interest of national security, your health and the safety of the American people is of little or no concern, as long as the bottom line is at stake, keep on inhaling the arsenic"
Arsenic is what is killing the people where I work. You never get rid of it, it stays forever.

Intel wants AMD alive and well, otherwise the good ole US Govt will step in and declare an unhealthy "MONOPOLY" and force a separation that will result in poorer products at a elevated price..

my .02

DrVette

[neo_otyugh]

noble metal

any of several metallic chemical elements that have outstanding resistance to oxidation, even at high temperatures; the grouping is not strictly defined but usually is considered to include rhenium, ruthenium, rhodium, palladium, silver, osmium, iridium, platinum, and gold; i.e., the metals of groups VIIb, VIII, and Ib of the second and third transition series of the periodic table.

stolen from someone who stole it from the encyclopaedie britannnica