Computer Legal Rights Activism.

[MegalosSkylos]

Dear Fellow Members,

Just got off phone with SONY. It is SONY's legal position, I was informed, that placing a Disclaimer ..Something like "This may be changed at any time without notice" entirely immunizes it from any responsibilty to keep its word (i.e."may change without notice") and that failure to post or provide Manual is also given complete immunity simply by declaring so. "Legal dept. says we have a disclaimer". Where does their disclaimer of responsibilty end?

I know of no other industry (maybe unique to SONY?) that enjoys absolute immunity to telling the truth, keeping its word, or dealing with its customers fairly, or enjoys immunity from various state implied warrenty laws, simply by posting a four page boilerplate somewhere with a diclaimer that changes may be made without notice. What if they left out the motherboard--hey, "anything can be disclaimed without notice."

CHECK YOUR LOCAL DISCLAIMER.

I may get advocacy from disability-rights group because when I called SONY HQ and asked to speak to Equal Opportunity Officer, was given Tech instead who told me "I don't want to get into this legal-mumbo jumbo"!

Must we Organize--Computer Rights Advocacy-- to NOT have our rights "Disclaimered"?

P.S. Told by SONY that they pulled the same put hyperlink-to-Wbsite trick on the next computer in the series, the VAIO PCV-J200 which ALSO doesn't have a Manual were its says it does.

Note: SONY may have released the J200 after I brought it to their attention of missing Manual , hence knew it when released the J200 with missing Manual.

Ia there such a thing as Disclaimer Fraud?

[Psycho Logical]

Would you please get a life ?!?

You have cluttered this board with so many rants against Sony that no one cares
anymore. Your "crusade" against them is obviously going nowhere. Move on.

If you spent half the time doing something constructive with your system,
you might actually be able to help out some people with real problems.

Pretty soon people will stop reading any post with your name on it.

[PassnThru]

Ditto. Move on.

[GroundZero3]

You’re worried about a manual?? Guess next time you will build your own pc so you do know what your getting. Chalk it up as a lost. What do you expect when you but pre built systems

This is how companies make their money. Sorry man looks like your SOL


JaYsin

[MegalosSkylos]

Dear Sirs and Madams:

I am not worried about just a manual.
I am concerned that a major company can abuse its customers and feel with slippary disclaimers ,it can immunize itself from responsibility.
But I am worried, if this is so common that people simple accept it and are not willing to pursue their rights.
Disclaimers are designed for emegent situations beyond a Companies control--I don't believe a Manual satisfies that criterion.
Moreover, the repeat of this ploy with the sucessor Computer,, the VAIO PCV-J200, suggest other than emergent conditions.
When Companies can compete by deception, rather than improvement, this skews the market economy to similar competitive ploys.
What is most unsettling in the present instance is the willingness to accept such corperative behavior as so "normal" that someone who is willing to pursue an alternative, is himself criticised for making undue demands of the readers time.
The relevant question is: "Is what I'm writing is true?"
Thank you for your kind attention in reconsidering these posts in that context.

[GroundZero3]

btw thats what a disclamier is. to make sure the company does not get into trouble with its products looks somebody did not read the fine print all the way thru

JaYsin

[MegalosSkylos]

Dear Ground Zero 3:

That is not what disclaimer is for. Thre is no need to disclaim a statement that is there but a person failed to read.

Here SONY is disclaiming a staement precisely because it was there and I did read it through.

Disclaimer may protect companies from collateral damage or harm for factors , emergent contingencies, beyond there control, or where time did not allow notice to be timely given.

The state of foreknowledge, the circimstances of the total control over the relevant and "Disclaimed" promise, the foreknowledge ("scientur" in a differrent context) shown by sending me a some pages that would otherwise be relevant to a Dummies Guide to Morons WITH the hyperlink as if to start yet another go around , and the repeat failure to give prior notice (or any notice) when releasing the sucessor PCV-j200 demolishes their disclaimer.

If this is their most hopeful defense, SONY should reconsider the hubris by which their regard for both customer and law were revealed.

Thank you for taking the time, despite the live you yourself have, to clarify your position to me. I hope my comments have been similarly helpful to you.

[GroundZero3]

I hope my comments have been similarly helpful to you.

no not really as i will NEVER trust a company to make a pre built system ever in my life


JaYsin

[GroundZero3]

here will this help? (http://www.ita.sel.sony.com/support/pc/pcvj200/)

what manual do you need by the way? whats so important about it?

JaYsin

[Atomic Rooster]

Amazing. All this boo-hoo-hooing about a PC that was neither built, sold, nor intended to be "upgraded" by the purchaser. I read this statement on the Sony site:

Computer Interface: The computer industry lacks standards, and therefore, there are a multitude of varying software packages and add-on hardware options. This personal computer is not manufactured to any specific software, and Sony does not and cannot make any warranty or representation with respect to the performance of this product with any particular software packages and/or non-Sony add-on hardware option except those mentioned in this document. Sony hereby disclaims any representations or warranty that this product is compatible with any combination of non-Sony products you may choose to connect. Purchasers must determine for themselves the suitability and compatibility of the hardware and software in each and every particular instance.

The last sentense says it all. If you are unable to determine if the peripheral/software is compatible with your system, which would include the lack of information (real or implied) from the manufacturer then it shoud not be installed. Me thinks you should have checked the manual (or in your case, lack of one) on their website when doing research before purchasing said computer. I built my own and did research the major components on the company's websites, specifically the manuals to see what would work together and what future updates I could make. :D

[MegalosSkylos]

Dear Atomic Rooster:

Computer is sold with two unused PCI (and no cautionary yellow stcker that they are just ornamental) which are easy for company to block. Hence, reasonable inference they may be used. You cannot disclaim logic.

Expansion slots are sometime also referred to as upgrade slots and add-on cards are sometime referred to as upgrades.

One does not need in this case a general industry standard: SONY"s own standard represented by its postings on the SONY site for predicessor VAIO PCV-j10, J120 will do nicely , thank you. Download these from the SONY site if you will and you'll see what SONY calls a reference Manual . Called SONY customer service and told manual was on HDD. RES IPSO LOCUTUR.'The thing speaks for itself.

In psychology, overidentifying with the stronger side (e.g.Big Company) is caled "Identification with the Aggressor"-A. Fraud

What I do with the computer after the warrenty period is over is not SONY's responsibilty. Keeping there word is. Moreovwer, SONY could have told me this "misprint" BS five months ago instead of stringing me along until they painted themselves into a corner when I would not give up. SONY knew this all along but misled.

Discalimer is the last refuge of disingenuity.

[GroundZero3]

**** dude chalk it up as a lost. and never buy Sony computers again. next you might want to really research a computer before buying it. Don't trust big coperations. go build your own for now on. its so simple with all the websites out there showing how too.



Gesssh its simple. time to move on already


JaYsin

[MegalosSkylos]

Dear Atomic Rooster:

Your post makes reference to "computer never intended to be 'upgraded ' by the purchaser".

NOTE: SONY Hard Drive VAIO USER Manual states "For more information on UPGRADING [emphasis supplied] your SONY computer see the System Reference Manual . You can download the System Reference Manual from the SONY Web sit at http://www.sony.com/pcsupport I got there by clicking 'upgrading' on HDD and section is called (by SONY) "Upgrading and Maintaining Your VAIO Computer (PCV-J150)". Also states "This section describes how to....insert add-on boards.." These are SONY's words, not mine.

If SONY intended to preclude its upgrade, this would only make its own representations all the more deceptive.

If SONY had told me from the very first "Sorry no Manual, no intention to post a manual, hey disclaimer What no we won't post no matter what the computer says Go return your computer " at the very beginning, there would not have reached this point
Instead, SONY chose to dissemble, disimulate, and deceive ....and call that disclaimer.
________________________________________

Dear GroudZero 3:

Now they want to insult my intelligence with this "disclaimer" more- of- same.
The time to have disclaimed was five months ago.

Again, issue has become one of holding Company to their word. They rely-apparently--precisely on poeple giving up which is why they keep doing--note the repeat performance with the successor J200.

__________________

Dear PsychLogical:

As a Poster who is obviously articulate, and in the interest of both decorum and accuracy, please consider both in regard to use of the word "rant". Thank you

[Beemer]

caviate emptor

(How ever it's spelled)

Cheers!

[MegalosSkylos]

"Honesty is the Best policy".
Thats English, for Honesty is the best policy.

SONY seems bent on painting itself into a corner.
Fierst it blames me for failing to look at the hard drivr for Manual when all along--five months--all along, the hard drive refers by hyperlink to Website from whence it--err. Is the word "Disclaimed"?

It plays dumb for half a year , while during this time its pulls the same ploy on the next compiuter in the series, giving the lie to even its fall-back position that it has to disclaim its word do to the exigent , unexpected , or beyond their control nature of failing to post the Manual it promised . How do you "disclaim " on one computer when you go ahead and do the same on another computer?

[GroundZero3]

From all your complaining I still can't figure out what the hell you are talking about. WHAT DID SONY DO?? English please and no dear sir or madam ****. What are they disclaiming?? What are lying about? How are they painting themselves into a corner?


Fierst it blames me for failing to look at the hard drivr for Manual


that sentence makes no sense. Why are they telling you too look at a manual? what were you trying to do??

JaYsin

[madfish]

MegalosSkylos
would you let us in on as to what you smoke?
Enough already..
Madfish

[MegalosSkylos]

Dear Ground Zero3:

1) SONY claims it's Manual is on the Hard drive of VAIO PCV-J150 Desktop.

2) I go to computer hard drive; click on Vaio User Manual tab under Programs.

3) Hard drive 'Manual' entry contains hyperlink to take me to PCV-J150 "System Reference Manual" at Sony support website.

4)I click on hyperlink and sure enough it takes me to Reference Manuals fo Vaio PCV series including J-100 and J120. NO "REFERENCE MANUAL" FOR J150 is POSTED, however.

5) The rest is history.

---------------------------------------------
P.S. SONY claims the mobo is the "Polestar" manufactured by it favorite supplier, a Company called IDONTKNOW.

P.P.S. SONY claims the chipset is the INTEL 810: states it finds no contradiction with this and AMD DURON 800 Mhz CPU on mobo.
---------------------------------------------------
I hope this clarifies the matter.

To anticipate your next question:"Why do I want a Manaul"?:

A) Why do most people want a Manual?
B) Being a person with disabilities, the lack of a Manual to assist in purchase planning, present or future limited upgrades etc falls more harshly on me.

------------------------------------------------------

Please don't tell me "you shouda built your own" We purchased a SONY and we will keep SONY to its word , whether it likes it or not. Its resort to "disclaimer legalese" when they have total control over the situation and have pulled the same stunt on the successor in the series, J-200 while this is going on , is pure desperation on SONY's part.

You don't try to hide behind legalese about not being responsible for factors beyond your control--and go ahead and pull the "disappearing System Reference Manual" trick on the next computer down the pike! Is it clear how they've --again--painted themselves into a corner?

Why not just admit they F. up and make good??
"Truth, Justice, and the American Way"
And stop the BS.

[GroundZero3]

SONY claims the mobo is the "Polestar" manufactured by it favorite supplier, a Company called IDONTKNOW.

SONY claims the chipset is the INTEL 810: states it finds no contradiction with this and AMD DURON 800 Mhz CPU on mobo




where do you see it say this on there site?? i can't find it anywhere

JaYsin

[Atomic Rooster]

MegalosSkylos -
I think you should start a website devoted to those who have been screwed over by Sony by not being able to get an online manual. Have them contribute donations for a fund to hire Johnny Cochran to sue Sony for damages and mental suffering incurred by not getting an online manual. :D

[MegalosSkylos]

dear Ground Zero3:

I got that about 20 times by calling SONY Tecnical Support---and President's HQ here in NYC. I got that when I tried to ID and get info on mobo. The chipset characterizes the mobo so I asked , "What is the chipset" Arose my suspicion when told 810. "Who makes the chipset?" SONY Tech(s) respond, Intel. So did Ms. LM in President's Office in NYC HQ. Is--or was -- in SONY database for half a year! Called Intel about it.

Point Is SONY knew better--but didn't care better. Hey, what's a little misinformation when Customer is always wrong. "Disclaimer," remember.

The best way to get people to lie for company is not to tell them the truth. Did Techs believe the BS about Intel chipset/AMD processor? I doubt it.
Did they repeat what was in datebase ?
What do you think.

Do you see why I feel so strongly that SONY should be kept to its word?

[Ed_S]

Look, I kinda hate to get in the middle an argument, but why not just take the thing back to the point of purchase and get face-to-face with a manager??
I don't know about your area, but around here only major retailers even sell Sony systems. And they all stand behind what they sell.
Take copies of any & all emails to Sony. At the very minimum, they will get you in contact with someone who CAN help.

[MegalosSkylos]

Dear Ed_S:

That would have worked half ayear ago--if SONY had told me they had no intention of ever providing me with a peoper Manualor dealing with other related issues in a proper way.

After putting me through this for half a year, I feel SONY should be held accountable for their treatment of acustomer. How many people would have pursued this as far as I have? Sony is counting on that--and to continue doing the same to customers who might not be as adament about their rights. To give SONY a cheap way out is to reward this behaviour. I'm not about to do that.

------------------------------------------------

Then there is the matter of calling HQ to speak to Equal Opportunites. Diversity, Disability Coordinator--or whatever SONY calls its EO Officer-- through Human Resources and being kicked over to Tech, who told me "I don't want to get into this legal mumbo-jumbo" when I asked his position with SONY. The Americans with Disabilities Act is not legal mumbo-jumbo. If the Tech was rude, its because SONY put him into a situation he had no business being in. I asked to be connected to some one
trained in this area of Equal Opportunities. SONY at its very HQ wouldn't even do that properly.

Thank you for your concern just the same and it is deeply appreciated. Actually, I plan to give the vendor a "heads up" and to request they review their inventory in this regard. SONY appears to be about to drop out of the desktop computer market , leaving "orphans". The Financial Times reported , it has been losing money in its Electronics Diviision which includes Computers, and will be restructuring by March.

[madfish]

Sheese. you just go on and on and on. is all you got time for?
Madfish

[MegalosSkylos]

Dear Madfish:

Nobody is forced to read my posts, and you'll notice my handle is on every last one of them.

I notice that you are reading them........

The flip side of my right not to post is my right to post.
The flip side of your right to read them is your right not to read them.

God bless America and the freedom of the internet we both enjoy.
Thankyou.

[Surfer55]

Ha! this dude is taking this too personally.

look man, I`m sure we all understand why you are so Pis**d about SONY but unfortunately this is the way some companies screw their customers. Once they got your money the hell with you. My advice is if you had extended warranty on it take it back to the shop and change it for another brand. I recommend HP since they have a fair support and they provide those manuals that you love so much. :D

[Undeadlord]

Megalos,

Couple things for you here.

1.) Stop posting like you are a lawyer writing some kind of brief. I for one find it insulting. It makes it sound like you are trying to use big words and ideas like we should not understand.

2.) I cannot believe if you called Sony and said I need a manual for my blah blah computer they would not send you one or atleast send you one for a shipping fee.

3.) I understand you should have recieved one with your computer and you are upset about not getting one, but Christ on a crutch ... its a MANUAL ... most likely the information inside it is worthless anyway, I have never really found useful info inside those things except for the the placement of the HDD light cable. I have never seen a manual giving out info on upgrades.

4.) MOVE ON WITH YOU LIFE >>> PLEASE!!!!

5.) I would hate to be the poor waitor who forgets this guys toast at a Denny's or something. He prob pulls out a gun and shoots them for being stupid. Sheesh.


Undeadlord

[GroundZero3]

Anytime you upgrade a sony computer. your warranty is voided

JaYsin

[MegalosSkylos]

A) I don't think the problem is stupidity at SONY.
B) If you can't get even a promised Manual when its under warranty, when are you going to get it.
C) Sony warrenty is one year: most computers (except maybe HDD) can last ten and planned obsolescence is about three.
D) And I still don't think the problem is stupidity at SONY.

[KennyPolo]

stop being g*y plz

[GroundZero3]

Sony warrenty is one year

yes thats true but once you add something into that computer you warranty is VOIDED. say if you bought the computer and you added something the day after you got. the warranty is VOIDED


stop being g*y plz

as for you kenny that is un called for.
please keep your lame remarks out of this forum. although i think hes fighting a never ending battle there is NO need to call people names

JaYsin

[NDC]

KennyPolo

I know it may be a harmless word in your vocabulary. However, this is not permitted in the forums. being gay, straight, bi, etc has nothing to do with the discussions we have in Sysopt. Please refrain from using such words that may discrimate other members. Thank you!


FAQ (http://www.sysopt.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15491)