Where was NORAD in all of this?

[MTAtech]

Something I was think of that seems to have missed the news. With all of the trillions of dollars we spent in the last 50 years on air defense, how could two planes not get intercepted before getting to their target?

I thought the sky is always being watched by the Airforce. Perhaps they are looking for Russian planes going toward the U.S. and ignore planes alreadyt there. If so, I hope this changes.

[Scorpio69]

MTAtech, I think if the intentions had been known, they would have been intercepted. This was simply not anticipated.

[SysOpt]

They were aware of the planes being off course and sent fighters to intercept. I believe that the fighters were about 10 minutes from Manhattan when the planes struck - someone can probably post an article with exact details though. Apparently NORAD is responsible for national guard fighters...

[BFlurie]

I believe that the fighters were about 10 minutes from Manhattan

That's right. There was a good program on CNN(?) where the Air National Guard stressed that it is focused on incursions from outside our airspace . As you prob'ly know, 2 F16s(?) were in place to intercept the Pennsylvania jet if it got close to DC.

[RADAR1797]

Let me take this opportunity to explain how the military works. We in essence have two organizations based on if we are in peace time or war. 1AF (Air National Guard) is responisble for homeland defence. Typically numbered Air Forces report to a Major Command. For instance, 9AF reports to Air Combat Command (ACC). In time of war that changes, the 9AF Commander becomes the Central Command Air Force Commander (CENTAF) and reports directly to the Central Command Commander (CENTCOM at MacDill). CENTCOM then reports directly to the SECDEF who reports directly to the CINC (President). This is important, b/c only combatant commanders can send troops into battle. NORAD controls the homeland defense forces and if they see a potential threat, they will scramble 1AF to send fighters to intercept. I hope that helped, please let me know if I can clarify.

-RADAR

[AzKidd69]

NORAD tried they just could not make it there fast enough, plus at the times the aircraft crashed they did NOT have Presidential approval to shoot down US civilian aircraft.

From CNN.com

--7:59 a.m.: American Airlines flight 11 takes off from Boston's Logan International Airport.

--8:14 a.m.: United Airlines flight 175 takes off from Boston's Logan International Airport.

--8:20 a.m.: American Airlines flight 11 stops transmitting IFF beacon signal while over the Hudson River.

--8:20 a.m.: United Airlines flight 77 departs Dulles International Airport near Washington.

--8:38 a.m.: Boston air traffic center notifies NORAD that American Airlines flight 11 has been hijacked.

--8:43 a.m.: FAA notifies NORAD that United Airlines flight 175 has been hijacked.

--8:44 a.m.: Otis Air National Guard Base in Mass. orders to fighters scrambled.

--8:46 a.m.: American Airlines flight 11 strikes the World Trade Center's north tower.

--8:47 a.m.: NORAD informed of the plane striking the World Trade Center.

--8:50 a.m.: United Airlines flight 175 deviates from its assigned flight path.

--8:52 a.m.: Two F-15 Eagles take off from Otis ANG Base in effort to intercept hijacked plane(s) after first plane has struck the World Trade Center.

--9:02 a.m.: United Airlines flight 175 strikes the World Trade Center's south tower (F-15 fighter jets from Otis ANG Base are still 70 miles away.)

--9:25 a.m.: FAA notifies NORAD that United flight 77 may have been hijacked.

--9:27 a.m.: (approximate time) NORAD orders jets scrambled from Langley Air Force Base in Virginia to head to intercept United Airlines flight 77.

--9:35 a.m.: Three F-16 Fighting Falcons take off from Langley AFB headed toward Washington area.

--9:37 a.m.: United Airlines flight 77 is lost from radar screens.

--9:38 a.m.: United Airlines flight 77 strikes the Pentagon.

--9:49 a.m.: F-16 fighter jets arrive over Washington, D.C. to perform Combat Air Patrol (CAP) over city. (The fighters broke the sound barrier and traveled supersonic at 720 knots to Washington, making the approximately 130 miles in 14 minutes.)

The following timeline is for United Airlines flight 93, scheduled to fly from Newark International Airport to San Francisco. The flight crashed in Pennsylvania.

--8:42 a.m.: United Airlines flight 93 takes off from Newark International Airport.

--9:16 a.m.: FAA informs NORAD that United Airlines flight 93 may have been hijacked.

--9:40 a.m.: Transponder signal from United flight 93 ceases and radar contact is lost.

--10:02 a.m.: After a review of radar tapes, a radar signal is detected near Shanksville, Pennsylvania.



Full article here. (http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.flat.foot/index.html)

[MTAtech]

Thanks for the clarification - especially RADAR.

The event seems to beg for some policy changes, including inteceptor bases closer to major cities. Fighter planes at Republic Airport (Farmingdale) could control the airspace between Boston and Phil. PA., since this airport is 45 miles east of Manhattan, across the water from Conn. and NJ.

[SPEEDO]

So basically it took 8 minutes for the the first two fighter jets to get off the ground!
Sounds kind of slow for a scramble!
I am not an aviation follower but couldn't this have been done faster?

Curious

SPEEDO

[Toadman]

I can see more military/civilian joint use of airports coming out of this tragedy.

[AzKidd69]

8 minutes isn't bad when you consider on an Aircraft Carrier in the Middle of the Ocean has 2 fighters on the flight deck ready to go @ all times and they are called the ALERT 5. They are called the alert 5 because that's about how long it takes them to get in the Air.. Remeber these planes already have pilots in the cockpit ready to go. I am sure the Air National Guard planes did NOT have pilots in them when the situation arose. I bet the CO of that base was wishibg he did. But he didn't. That's what happens when we go for so long without anything happening for too long.. It's called getting lackadaisical. Before Sept. 9th it was considered an unneeded stance for the US to take.

[SPEEDO]

I guess they never belonged to the boyscouts!!

SPEEDO

[MrMikeL]

The biggest failure was the failure of the Air Traffic Controllers to notify anyone within a reasonable amount of time. Once they did notify the FAA, things started to happen, but it was too late by then.

[BBA]

I think the biggest failure was thinking the hijackers were not going to destroy the airplanes.

We can all criticize now...hindsight is 20/20 but I didn't see any of you 'experts' making emergency response planning actions before the event hapenned.

I would be surprised if ANY airplane could be taken from cold tiedown on a runway to flying in less than 5 minutes. Just getting pilots in the seats in less than 2 minutes is almost impossible, especially if they are in the rack or eating breakfast.

Remember the minute men? They were stationed at the ready constantly and had a hard time making two minutes to be on post to launch missiles. That's not even doing a pre-flight and launching in an airplane.

Think about getting out of your bed and driving to work in less than 8 minutes.

[NavyDood_ F/A18_Mech]

8 minutes to scramble 2 F-16's is actually pretty good. I can't talk for the squadron that they came from, but they would have to be in a Ready15 status to be able to do that. On a normal day to day basis, jet's are not armed with live ordanance ready for missions like what happened.

To further what AzKidd69 said, the Navy does not have Ready5 aircraft all the time. Only in hot zones. I think you all can figure out what i mean by that.

Do we have planes ready to scramble that is beyond what i know? I'm sure we do. BUT, who would have ever guessed that those hijacked planes were on the mission that they were on? This is a first for hijackers.

These words are my words and my words only. I am speaking only on my behalf, and not the military's.

Jim

[Graham]

On a normal day to day basis, jet's are not armed with live ordanance


Bet they will be now !!



I think one of the problems was what you Americans call SOP. The normal reaction to a hijack is compliance, go along with the hijackers, this would have been the initial response on board the hijacked planes.
I dont know if the military would routinely launch fighters to intercept hijacked aircraft, probably not, so it would have been some time before the threat was recognised, and then it was too late, it was unexpected and too quick.

I dont think, given the timescales, that the mlitary have anything to be ashamed of, as Toad said, I think it will be common to see military fighters at major airports in the future


G

[Warthog]

Yeah, Standard Operating Procedures. I agree, Graham.

The part when the air traffic controllers didn't notice (I guess) the planes on a different route is what gets me.

Warthog

[SPEEDO]

Remember Pearl, They were warned and everyone went DUH!
Nah they wouldn't dare!
But that's another story!

I guess your right no one could have imagined!

SPEEDO

[card_magic]

Okay... fine... All of what is being said is all very well and good for intercepting an aircraft which is a threat... I understand that. But what about the plane that hit the Pentagon? The Pentagon is supposed to be the US military headquarters. I know that had it been any other building, the damage would have been much greater, but doesn't the Pentagon have some sort of defense on-site? Shouldn't it have had jets, or copters circling it after the second crash into the twin towers? I would think that THE military HQ for the U.S. would have anti-aircraft guns, and such, in case of an attack on the building. But, I'm not a military man, so I have no idea. Am I wrong?

Later,
-Jim

[Richard_Cranium72]

I beg to differ with this ->>


quote:
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On a normal day to day basis, jet's are not armed with live ordanance
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I was in the Civil Air Patrol in the mid 60's

In about 1971 , two Air Force jets collided over my house and crahsed less than 5 miles away.

I was the first on the scene at the mountain side crash.

The fire trucks came up about 15 minutes later claiming a Cessna 172 had crashed.

In the low burning fire on the steep mountain side were ammo belts holding what looked like 50 cal shells, the ends were round like bullets not crimped like blanks.

The military cordoned off the site and enlisted my assistance for guidance as the roads were long and confusing(40,000 acres)

Other crash sites revealed hot ammo amidst the debris.

Perhaps some craft DO carry live ammo..

[RADAR1797]

The guns are usually loaded with live ammo, the missiles are usually not live though (at home anyhow).

-RADAR