Sad Story

[Raist]

HOUSTON, Texas (CNN) -- A 36-year-old mother was charged with capital murder Wednesday in the deaths of her five children police said they believe were drowned in a bathtub of their home.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/06/20/children.killed/index.html

Yet again we see another example of how terrible things can be done to defenseless children. I just finished reading Cmonsters post from yesterday: http://www.sysopt.com/forum/Forum17/HTML/003645.html
about the letter his little girl left on the table when I switched to CNN.com and saw this. I'm sorry that I seem to dwell on the negative, but literally I'm sitting in my office halfway between tears and rage after reading that article. I personally cannot stand to see or hear about things like this being done to children. I have two kids of my own and they are my world. I don't see how people can do things like this. It is absolutely unthinkable to harm a child, I cannot comprehend someones desire to do so and when I hear about it it completley enrages me. I realized that this feeling has grown stronger and stronger since I've been a parent. Not that these things didn't upset me before I was a parent but they upset me more now that I am. Do any of you other parents think this is just a function of growing older or because now that I have children of my own I have stronger paternal instincts and things like what this woman did go against everything that a parent is? Sorry to post such a depressing topic... -Raist

[Steve R Jones]

Speaking of tears, I still bawl when I see pictures of the bleeding babies from OK City bombing.

Then there was the mom that jumped from a tall building and took her child with her.

Geeez. I'd gladly take these kids if their parents don't want them. Too bad this 36 year old lady in Houston to is too sick for the death penalty. Not that it would do her children any good now. Man, what a shame.

[Undeadlord]

I might be a minority, but I was sick after readinf that story too, and I say someone give me a shotgun and I will take care of this lady. I know quite a few people on drugs for depression and none of them would drown five inncoent children, practically babies. This lady is one sick woman. She deserves to be shot and much worse. Horrbile Horrbile horrrible

Undeadlord

[Hellmund]

Shes' too sick to be put on the chair?
So they're only allowed to kill healthy people? I doubt she's too sick for a bullet in the head though, or maybe someone should drown her! It's sickening the way parents seem to take it out on their kids in situations like this http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif

[Warthog]

I doubt she's too sick for a bullet in the head though

Hey, the offer still stands....*stares at gun on wall*

Warthog

[jad1097]

It is apparent to me that you people know very little about depression and mental illnesses. Unless you have suffered from severe depression yourself or you are a doctor then you don’t have a clue. Even somebody that lives with somebody who suffers from depression may not know what it is really like for that person. As her husband just said on CNN “she was not herself”. She was suffering from Postpartum Depression and it appears it may have accelerated to Postpartum Psychosis. Depression also tends to get worse with repeated episodes. I did notice she did not have the same combination of drugs as she did last time she suffered Postpartum Depression.


This poor guy is torn apart. How could anyone even begin to comprehend what he is going through? I had to cry while watching his interview.


She was mentally ill at the time she did this so they cannot kill her.

http://pregnancy.miningco.com/health/pregnancy/library/blppd.htm


Psychotic Depression
One of the ways to distinguish postpartum psychosis from the more common anxiety disorders is that in addition, she will often have hallucinations or delusions. Sometimes family members may not pick up on psychosis because the mother may have periods where she appears fine. However, during the time when she is irrational, her judgment is impaired and both she and the baby are not safe. She may not even remember what she has done during these periods of psychosis.


http://mentalhelp.net/articles/women.htm


The most serious pregnancy-related disorder is postpartum psychosis. The prevalence is rare, about 1 in 500 deliveries. In psychiatry, we hardly ever see anybody who is more ill than a woman who has a postpartum psychosis. These women hallucinate, they're delusional, they're very agitated. They can't care for the baby, and they can't care for themselves. Their reality testing is so poor that they may be a danger to themselves and others, including their infants.

[Mr.Goodbytes]

She's not too sick for the death penalty, and i hope prosecutors pursue it. She is well aware of the consequences and legality of her actions. She knows what she did and was probably well aware of it when she did it. Drowning is one of the worst unnatural deaths one can go through. Let's hope there is zero sympathy for her stupid depression plea.

[Steve R Jones]

Gee jad1097, now I'm depressed. You seem to have left out the part where she Killed FIVE kids. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[Undeadlord]

I just don't understand the Depression plea .. If I am depressed I might want to give myself, but why does being depressed make me want to kill others? I don;t think it does .. Like I said hand me a shotgun and point me in her direction.


Undeadlord

[gyoung]

There is no excuse to kill another human being. Okay maybe one, self-defense. But other than that no other excuse works.

Being depressed, insane, crazy, or anything else doesn't excuse the taking of another life.

You may be able to rehabilitate, but you won't ever bring that other life back.

And here we are talking about 5 kids! They didn't even get a chance to grow up and live. They didn't get a chance to go on that first date, their first kiss, their first love.

They don't get anything. And for that this woman shouldn't get anything either.

You want to talk about psychological problems, her husband is probably having many of them right now and now for the rest of his life.

This isn't about her and her problems. As soon as she killed her children she lost her right to have problems.

In this country (USA), we have a right to vote, that right can be revoked. Just like the right to vote, you have a right to life, until you take one.

[jad1097]

You don't understand depression.

I hope none of you ever have to go through any type of severe depression. I can honestly tell you it is no fun. And yes I can understand how someone severely depressed can have a psychotic episode and kill five children. It surprises me she did not also take her own life.


Instead of wanting to kill someone why not try to take the time and learn what the problem was. If you take the time to learn about it you may just be able to save someone’s life one day.


In this country the United States of America, we do not normally kill mentally ill people, hence the insanity plea which is valid sometimes.



[This message has been edited by jad1097 (edited 06-21-2001).]

[Steve R Jones]

I for one am extremely familiar with depression and various mental illnesses. But I don’t think we should re-fill this lady’s prescription and send her home…

[jad1097]

I agree.

I just don't think she needs to be fried or shot, as it would seem some here would have done. She is obviously not fit for society but to kill her is ignorant.

[Raist]

You know, I was laid off from my job and had my world crashing in around me and ended up becoming clinically depressed. But NOT for one NANOSECOND did the thought of hurting anyone, Myself, My Wife, or MY CHILDREN ever enter into my mind. I went to a doctor got help and moved on with my life. I'm sorry, but depression or no depression this woman needs to be held accountable for her actions. I'll pay for the electricity to fry her *** if the state wants someone to pony up for it. I know I'll **** a lot of people off by saying this, but I feel mental defect should not be an excuse used to spare your life in a capital murder case. You take a life, you lose yours -case closed

[zskillz]

clinically deppressed is not the same as post partum - VERY different

-Z

[Gomer]

Sad case. Really sad =(

Jad: don't worry man, some of us hear what you are saying.

[club_med]

*

[gyoung]

I am reading the other posts but not for one minute will I let any argument excuse this lady for what she had done.

I don't care if she doesn't remember what she did. She doesn't deserve to live among free people in a free society. She lost that right whe she drowned her children.

It makes me sick when people try to rationalize the grotesque things people do. She didn't just take one life, she took 5 lives and destroyed many others.

Don't excuse her for what she did. Mentally ill or not she killed people. She may never do it again. But I don't want her living on my block and we don't need people feeling sorry for her.

[Undeadlord]

Club_med,

I have read the other posts arguing that she is depressed and that she has a mental illness which I am sure she does. However she took the lives of 5 innocent children. I think we as a society have found reasons to blame things away, oh she was mental illness, oh she was depressed, oh she had a bad day at work, now excuse me for using the pronoun she it could be anyone gender and race do not matter, just used she becuase this case is about a woman. We have to think about where to draw the line. I personally would like to draw it farther on. Unless a murder was commited by a drooling, slobbering, unable to clothe, feed and help himself(herself) mentally retarded person, then the person should have to stand up for his or her crimes. In a day and age when it seems everywhere I turn someone is getting diagnosed with ADD, ADH, depression, blah blah blah, These are all just ways to blame our faults and character flaws away on something we cannot control. I am all for the death penalty, I know that may get me alot of flak, but I will not back down from the belief that if you take a life, yours is forfeit, that is just something that comes from my soul and sense of right and wrong. So there it is .. I hope they persue the death penalty with her, although I fear they will not.


Undeadlord

[gyoung]

I agree with you wholeheartedly Undeadlord. It's already happening. We are being flooded with how depressed she was and that we are meant to feel sorry for her. The defense lawyers will jump all over that.

In the meantime 5 children are dead with no future at all.

[jad1097]

Undeadlord, you are truly ignorant when it comes to this.

[This message has been edited by jad1097 (edited 06-22-2001).]

[Graham]

If I am correct, post-partum depression is what we call post-natal depression, a very common problem, and sometimes very severe.
I have no personal knowledge of serious depression, and I have said before I abhor cruelty, especially to children.
It seems to me that a lot of the people here are far from compasionate, and, as club-med says full of hate. Mental illness is just that, an illness, people cannot just "pull themselves together" and they may have no more control over their actions than someone with a physical disability.
I am in no way condoning her actions, but I think that we must show some understanding of mental illness, and not allow the knee-jerk hang-em-high reaction to take over.
It may (or not) be significant, that all, bar one, of the "let's kill her" posts are from the USA, the only western country to still have the death penalty, perhaps a cultural difference.

G

[Undeadlord]

Well first of all Jad, you have no idea what I have been diagnosed with, for all you know I could be Bipolar and have other mentaly problems. Now I do not, so I will say that I don not know what your feeling. However answer me two questions.

First: Lets say you had a "mental episode" and killed a child? Would you think you were responsible afterwards?

Second: What if your child had been over that that woman's house and she had drowned your child along with hers. Would you still feel her "mental illness" was to blame? Or would you blame the person for their actions?


Undeadlord

[This message has been edited by Undeadlord (edited 06-21-2001).]

[Gomer]

Graham:
It may (or not) be significant, that all, bar one, of the "let's kill her" posts are from the USA, the only western country to still have the death penalty, perhaps a cultural difference

Is it just as significant that all, bar two, of the "let's not kill her" posts are from the USA ?

[Warthog]

That is quite insignifant. Simply look at where the large majority of the members are from....

I'm attempting to understand the whole depression thing, but having not been in depression myself, I can never truly understand what it feels like.

I do have one question to ask, though. Some of you say that her severe depression is to blaim and that is the reason there is an insanity plea. Here is the question: Where does it stop? Most killings are blamed on being brought up wrong, in an abusive household, etc. Isn't this similar to blaming the problem on depression? "It's not his fault, his parents didn't take care of him/abused him as a child". ????

you are truly ignorant
Remember, it's just a discussion.

Warthog

[This message has been edited by Warthog (edited 06-21-2001).]

[Gomer]

That was my point wart.

Also, it isn't so much a matter of assigning blame, as it is the way it is discussed.
quote:
---------------------------------------------I doubt she's too sick for a bullet in the head though
---------------------------------------------

Hey, the offer still stands....*stares at gun on wall*

Warthog


there are more than a few folks here that always come off like vigilantes every time something like that comes up. To those of us that don't respond that way, it is almost as disturbing as the crime itself.

[jad1097]

How about I finish that quote for you there Wart. "Undeadlord, you are truly ignorant when it comes to this." Your quote was a bit out of context.

One entry found for ignorant.


Main Entry: ig·no·rant
Pronunciation: 'ig-n(&-)r&nt
Function: adjective
Date: 14th century
1 a : destitute of knowledge or education <an ignorant society>; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified <parents ignorant of modern mathematics> b : resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence <ignorant errors>
2 : UNAWARE, UNINFORMED
- ig·no·rant·ly adverb
- ig·no·rant·ness noun
synonyms IGNORANT, ILLITERATE, UNLETTERED, UNTUTORED, UNLEARNED mean not having knowledge. IGNORANT may imply a general condition or it may apply to lack of knowledge or awareness of a particular thing <an ignorant fool> <ignorant of nuclear physics>. ILLITERATE applies to either an absolute or a relative inability to read and write <much of the population is still illiterate>. UNLETTERED implies ignorance of the knowledge gained by reading <an allusion meaningless to the unlettered>. UNTUTORED may imply lack of schooling in the arts and ways of civilization <strange monuments built by an untutored people>. UNLEARNED suggests ignorance of advanced subjects <poetry not for academics but for the unlearned masses>.

you have no idea what I have been diagnosed with

And what would that be? Are you ashamed of it? I am not ashamed of my illness as you can see.


Gomer, the intent of those words is very disturbing. And it is always present in matters such as this.

[zskillz]

I had a teacher in seventh grade who was one of the most wonderful teachers that I have ever had. a few years ago, I was watching the news and could not believe when I saw that she had also taken her own sons life. Since that time, she has been in and out of mental institutions. The reason: post partum depression.

The point is that wonderful, wonderful people can do horrible, horrible things, and not even know that they're doing it. Now, she has to live with the knowledge that she killed the son she loved so much for the rest of her life.

I come from a fairly tightly knit catholic community, so there was lots of people who would never talk to her again and some who have been there for support since...

it's just so sad
-Z

[Raist]

My position is this, (and I'm sorry if it upsets anyone.) Mentally ill or not she MURDERED her children. She had chance after chance to seek help. For those of you who cry out that she was ill and should be spared death because of it I'll restate my position. MENTAL DEFECT should not be an excuse for heinous acts committed by individuals unless it precludes them from the fundamental knowledge of right and wrong. Or as Undeadlord put it: a drooling, slobbering, unable to clothe, feed and help himself(herself) mentally retarded person. When does it stop, the incessant whining that someone deserves to live because mommy and daddy mistreated them or they have mental problems? Some people lack the mental capacity from the get go and need to be locked away but for those who claim that their ability to reason right from wrong went out the window and now they're sorry... That is the biggest load of **** ever put forth as a defense for doing something wrong. I guess people will start saying that the kids deserved it since they were just being kids and more than sick mommy could handle. We should have so much sympathy for her. What a load Of *****.. Sorry but its they way I feel.. Being depressed wether it be clinical or post partum does not remove the ability to reason right from wrong. Hope her jury is consisted of 12 mothers and fathers...

[Undeadlord]

Jad,

for yelling at people for taking quotes out of context you sure are quick to do it.

I said you do not know what I am diagnosed with, thankfully I do not have a mental condition, but you automatically assummed I had none myself. I would not be ashamed of it. Jad I feel like since you have a conditon you feel like we are attacking you or something. I persoanlly am not, wether the woman who killed her children was mentally ill or not she deserves death.

caddmannq: very poignant and absoluetly correct.


Undeadlord

[Raist]

Undead, I think thats the whole point thats being missed. She killed her children, plain and simple she killed her kids. Now plain and simple she needs to be punished by being put to death. Mentally ill or not she desrves to die.

[Undeadlord]

Raist,

oh I know, your right, that is the point being argued, I guess I just wanted to make clear that I didn't want her to be put to death becuase she was mentally ill. Taking another human life, forfeits your own. Plain and simple (unless circumstances are weird, aka Self-defense, etc)


Undeadlord

[jad1097]

YES.


THIS IS CONSIDERED YELLING!

YOU ARE CORRECT, I DID ASSUME YOU HAD NONE!

[Undeadlord]

Why are we yelling now?


Undeadlord

[jad1097]

"for yelling at people "

[Warthog]

jad - my question?

Warthog

[Warthog]

Just out of curiousity, if she was NOT mentally ill and still did this act (for whatever reason), would you all who currently don't think she deserves to die, change your opinion or not?

Warthog

[Spanky]

"At any point in time this woman could have called the county social services and told them that she needed help; that she was unable to care for her children and herself. She evidently did not want this help."

Again you miss the point, for a mentally ill person other options may have never occured. She wasn't doing what a rational person would do, of course we can say what we would have done if we were her cause we arn't ill, we have our full mental capacity, she did not.

Its like getting pissed at a person who doesn't have the mental capacity to visit the bathroom!

[Spanky]

And Yes I have a kid BTW, A 10 month old son who I would give my life for in a second.

[club_med]

*

[Hellmund]

True club_med, but does irrationality excuse murder, when I read stories like that I imagine that's my 5 kids to put it in perspective, from that perspective I don't really care what state they were in. I concede that it isn't necessary to kill the person but the only reason is to that stop that person doing it again and A bullet to the head is a guaranteed permanent solution. The other main reason many condone the death penalty is that hopefully it would discourage other heinous acts.

BTW Caddmannq, very well said http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[jad1097]

Wart that is what the YES was for

[Warthog]

So, you would change your opinion or keep the same as now?

Warthog

[jad1097]

"Just out of curiousity, if she was NOT mentally ill and still did this act (for whatever reason), would you all who currently don't think she deserves to die, change your opinion or not?"


What part of yes do you not understand?

[NavyDood_ F/A18_Mech]

Texas's Governor (Rick Perry) vetoed a bill to ban the execution of the mentally retarded death row inmates. The state already has numerous safeguards in place to protect such inmates. This also applies to future crimes.

Now.............. In my opinion........... I hope there isn't any way she get's out of what she did.

Jim

[Warthog]

whoa dude, chill a little bit

Warthog

[jad1097]

I hope you got it that time

[jeffpapier]

The topics I read in this forum seem to lean toward the opinions of the mentally unburdened.
Being simple is the great fad now, but some people's problems are more complex then "JUST SAY NO".

[Raist]

Wow, I didn't think I would have sparked such a debate with this topic but I'm glad to see people have opinions and will voice them. Now as far as this topic goes... The husband of the mother in this story is supporting her 100% and is trying to have her life spared and says he forgives her. I personally cannot understand this. My wife and I discussed this and the discussion pretty much ended when I told her that if she ever did something like what this woman did, she had better pray that the cops beat me to the house. Because if they did not beat me there, she would be joining the kids about 2 seconds after I pulled into the driveway. In turn she said to me, "Well, I wouldn't expect anything less if I did something like that." We both agree that we cannot understand why this woman did what she did. My wife suffered through postpartum depression after our son was born and during this time I was laid off. Never once did she ever think of doing anything as heinous as this woman did.. And for those of you who are calling for sympathy for her.. Can you reconcile with what ever your belief system is that your higher power will take into account she was depressed at the time? My $.02.... -Raist

[Undeadlord]

Raist,

I know, I thought that was really weird. I saw a clip from the news and the husband didn't even seem really upset. I couldn't believe it. And then to say he forgives his wife .. I think he is as messed up as she is.


Undeadlord