hopefully Clinton's final joke on the US Public

[Warthog]

I don't get it.

How could we EVER have elected him??? And how can people STILL like him????

Warthog

[BBA]

Well..he has to have his drug providers and money launderers out of jail...

Otherwise...he wouldnt be able to support his habbits later on http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif

[Mntsnow]

Sheeze http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif Like any of these people "deserved" a pardon or commutation.

Clinton’s pardons and commutations

140 Americans pardoned, 36 sentences commuted

A list of the people pardoned and sentences commuted on Jan. 20 before President Clinton left office:


COMMUTATIONS
Benjamin Berger, convicted of stealing more than $40 million worth of education grants, small-business loans and housing subsidies by creating a fictitious religious school to receive government money
Ronald Henderson Blackley, chief of staff for former Agriculture Secretary Mike Espy, convicted of making false statements regarding $22,000 he accepted from agribusiness friends
Bert Wayne Bolan
Gloria Libia Camargo
Charles F. Campbell
David Ronald Chandler, spared from execution in an Alabama drug case in which questions have been raised about his federal conviction for ordering the murder of an associate-turned-informant
Lau Ching Chin
Donald R. Clark, convicted in 1991 of conspiracy to grow and sell an especially potent type of marijuana
Loreta De-Ann Coffman
Derrick Curry
Velinda Desalus
Jacob Elbaum, convicted of stealing more than $40 million worth of education grants, small-business loans and housing subsidies by creating a fictitious religious school to receive government money
Linda Sue Evans, sentenced to 40 years in prison for her part in a conspiracy to stage a bombing at the U.S. Capitol in 1983 to protest the invasion of Grenada
Loretta Sharon Fish
Antoinette M. Frink, served 11 years of a 15 1/2-year sentence for selling cars to a drug trafficker who used them to run cocaine
David Goldstein, convicted of stealing more than $40 million worth of education grants, small-business loans and housing subsidies by creating a fictitious religious school to receive government money
Gerard A. Greenfield
Jodie E. Israel
Kimberly Johnson
Billy Thornton Langston Jr., first-time offender sentenced to 30 years in prison for conspiracy to manufacture PCP
Belinda Lynn Lumpkin
Peter MacDonald, former leader of Navajo Nation, convicted in 1992 of a federal conspiracy charge for his role in a 1989 Window Rock riot that resulted in two deaths, also for accepting kickbacks and bribes
Kellie Ann Mann
Peter Ninemire
Hugh Ricardo Padmore
Arnold Paul Prosperi, a college friend of Bill Clinton and a fund-raiser for him, convicted of filing false tax returns and scheming to steal millions from a client
Melvin J. Reynolds, former House representative from Illinois, imprisoned for bank fraud, campaign violations and having sex with an underage campaign worker
Pedro Miguel Riveiro
Dorothy Rivers
Susan Rosenberg, an activist convicted of possession of 700 pounds of explosives and a submachine gun in a 1984 New Jersey case
Kalmen Stern, convicted of stealing more than $40 million worth of education grants, small-business loans and housing subsidies by creating a fictitious religious school to receive government money
Cory Stringfellow, sentenced to 188 months in federal prison in 1995 for conspiring to sell LSD and fleeing to England
Carlo Anibal Vignali Jr., served six years of a 15-year sentence for participating in a major cocaine ring
Thomas Wilson Waddell III
Harvey Weinig
Kim Allen Willis


PARDONS
Verla Jean Allen
Nicholas M. Altiere
Bernice Ruth Altschul
Joe Anderson Jr.
William Sterling Anderson, former South Carolina House Speaker Pro Tem, sentenced to 14 months in prison in 1987 for charges stemming from the falsification of customer credit records for his mobile home business in South Carolina
Mansour T. Azizkhani
Cleveland Victor Babin Jr.
Chris Harmon Bagley
Scott Lynn Bane
Thomas Cleveland Barber
Peggy Ann Bargon
David Roscoe Blampied
William Arthur Borders Jr., convicted of conspiracy in a Miami racketeering case
Arthur David Borel
Douglas Charles Borel
George Thomas Brabham
Almon Glenn Braswell, convicted of of fraud and other crimes stemming from false claims about the effectiveness of a treatment for baldness
Leonard Browder
David Steven Brown
Delores Caroylene Burleson, aka Delores Cox Burleson
John H. Bustamante, pleaded guilty in 1993 to a federal charge of defrauding an insurance company
Mary Louise Campbell
Eloida Candelaria
Dennis Sobrevinas Capili
Donna Denise Chambers
Douglas Eugene Chapman
Ronald Keith Chapman
Francisco Larios Chavez
Henry G. Cisneros, former Clinton Cabinet member who was convicted in a controversy over payments to an ex-mistress
Roger Clinton, president’s half-brother, convicted of drug trafficking
Stuart Harris Cohn
David Marc Cooper, pleaded guilty in 1992 to conspiracy to defraud the government in a case involving parts made by Midwest Specialties for Army Jeeps.
Ernest Harley Cox Jr.
John F. Cross Jr.
Rickey Lee Cunningham
Richard Anthony De Labio
John Deutch, former CIA director, signed misdemeanor plea agreement after mishandling hundreds of highly classified intelligence documents on unsecure home computers linked to the Internet, making them vulnerable to cyber-attack
Richard Douglas
Edward Reynolds Downe
Marvin Dean Dudley
Larry Lee Duncan
Robert Clinton Fain, convicted in 1982 on income tax fraud charges
Marcos Arcenio Fernandez
Alvarez Ferrouillet
William Dennis Fugazy, pleaded guilty to shifting some of his remaining assets into another company controlled by his children to avoid paying creditors who claimed he owed them $75 million, was also sentenced to two years of probation for committing perjury
Lloyd Reid George
Louis Goldstein
Rubye Lee Gordon
Pincus Green, business partner of Marc Rich, indicted on charges of evading $48 million in taxes and trading with Iran while Americans were being held hostage in Tehran
Robert Ivey Hamner
Samuel Price Handley
Woodie Randolph Handley
Jay Houston Harmon
John Hemmingson, convicted in 1996 of laundering money to cover a campaign loan for the brother of former Agriculture Secretary Mike Espy
David S. Herdlinger
Debi Rae Huckleberry
Donald Ray James
Stanley Pruet Jobe
Ruben H. Johnson
Linda Jones
James Howard Lake
June Louise Lewis
Salim Bonnor Lewis
John Leighton Lodwick
Hildebrando Lopez
Jose Julio Luaces
James Timothy Maness
James Lowell Manning, convicted in 1982 on income tax fraud charges
John Robert Martin
Frank Ayala Martinez
Silvia Leticia Beltran Martinez
John Francis McCormick
Susan H. McDougal, Clinton’s former Whitewater business partner, convicted of misusing a federally backed $300,000 loan and jailed 18 months on a contempt of court citation for refusing to testify against the Clintons
Howard Lawrence Mechanic, fled after a federal judge sentenced him in 1972 to serve five years for throwing a cherry bomb during a war protest at Washington University in St. Louis
Brook K. Mitchell Sr.
Samuel Loring Morison, former Navy intelligence analyst, only government official ever convicted of leaking classified information to the media
Charles Wilfred Morgan III
Richard Anthony Nazzaro
Charlene Ann Nosenko
Vernon Raymond Obermeier
Miguelina Ogalde
David C. Owen
Robert W. Palmer, a Little Rock appraiser who pleaded guilty to conspiracy in the Whitewater case
Kelli Anne Perhosky
Richard H. Pezzopane
Orville Rex Phillips
Vinson Stewart Poling Jr.
Norman Lyle Prouse
Willie H.H. Pruitt Jr.
Danny Martin Pursley Sr.
Charles D. Ravenel, pleaded guilty in October 1995 to his role in the failure of the Citadel Federal Savings Bank, which prosecutors called one of the biggest bank frauds in South Carolina’s history
William Clyde Ray
Alfredo Luna Regalado
Ildefonso Reynes Ricafort
Marc Rich, fugitive financier indicted on charges of tax evasion and making illegal oil deals with Iran
Howard Winfield Riddle
Richard Wilson Riley Jr., son of Clinton’s education secretary, who was sentenced to house arrest in 1993 for conspiring to sell cocaine and marijuana
Samuel Lee Robbins
Joel Gonzales Rodriguez
Michael James Rogers
Anna Louise Ross
Gerald Glen Rust
Jerri Ann Rust
Bettye June Rutherford
Gregory Lee Sands
Adolph Schwimmer
Albert A. Seretti Jr.
Patricia Campbell Hearst Shaw, 1970s kidnap victim who later went to prison in connection with a bank robbery
Dennis Joseph Smith
Gerald Owen Smith
Stephen A. Smith, a former aide to Clinton when he was Arkansas governor, had been convicted of a misdemeanor in 1995 in the Whitewater probe
Jimmie Lee Speake
Charles Bernard Stewart
Marlena Francisca Stewart-Rollins
John Fife Symington III, former Arizona governor convicted in 1997 on six of counts of bank and wire fraud
Richard Lee Tannehill
Nicholas C. Tenaglia
Gary Allen Thomas
Larry Weldon Todd
Olga C. Trevino
Ignatious Vamvouklis
Patricia A. Van De Weerd
Christopher V. Wade, Whitewater real estate agent, admitted hiding assets in a bankruptcy case and pleaded guilty to bankruptcy fraud and submitting a false application to a bank, though the charges against him were not related to the Whitewater development
Bill Wayne Warmath
Jack Kenneth Watson
Donna Lynn Webb
Donald William Wells
Robert H. Wendt
Jack L. Williams
Kevin Arthur Williams
Robert Michael Williams
Jimmie Lee Wilson
Thelma Louise Wingate
Mitchell Couey Wood, convicted of conspiracy to possess and distribute cocaine
Warren Stannard Wood
Dewey Worthey
Rick Allen Yale
Joseph A. Yasak
William Stanley Yingling
Phillip David Young, convicted of interstate transportation and sale of fish and wildlife

(list provided by MNBC)

[BDAWBTP]

Wow, Guess he was preparing for retirement. Well, you know , the crooks gotta look out for each other.

Nice post Mntsnow

[bdunn]

The president can pardon whomever he pleases and the currently that right is absolute.

Nobody made a big stink when George Bush Sr. pardoned Caspar Weinberger and several others.

The president is right in asking his party to drop it regarding Clinton's pardons becuase he realizes that someday he's going to want to pardon somebody and would like that right to be maintained.

A lot of information has come out regarding the pardon of Mark Rich. The president was so interested middle east peace that when the Israeli government sent letters favoring Mark Rich and Jonathan Pollard they were carefully considered. Outgoing PM Ehud Barak was willing to be much more flexible with land concessions if either or both of these people were pardoned. The president pardoned the less controversial of the 2.

I think he made the wrong decision and Pollard should be free and Rich should face the law.

[Fingers]

I don't remember Caspers wife spending dozens of days in the White House nor did she contribute millions to the outgoing President's interests. Clinton apparently has high respect for those, who like himself, are able to commit high crimes and get away with it. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif

[codybear]

all I can say is that I am very glad I am not a friend or associate of IT because those people seem to die young http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by codybear (edited 03-06-2001).]

[BBA]

Well...here's some of the people he did NOT have to pardon:

James McDougal - Clinton's convicted whitewater partner died of an apparent heart attack, while in solitary confinement. He was a key witness in Ken Starr's investigation. No mention of the fact the prison officials were ordered to stop giving his heart medication.

Mary, A former White House intern was murdered July 1997 at a Starbucks Coffee Shop in Georgetown. The murder happened just after she was to go public with her story of sexual harassment in the White House.


Vince Foster - Former white House councilor, and colleague of Hillary Clinton at Little Rock's Rose Law firm. Died of a gunshot wound to the head, ruled a suicide.


Ron Brown - Secretary of Commerce and former DNC Chairman. Reported to have died by impact in a plane crash. A pathologist close to the investigation reported that there was a hole in the top of Brown's skull resembling a gunshot wound. At the time of his death Brown was being investigated, and spoke publicly of his willingness to cut a deal with prosecutors.

C. Victor Raiser II - & - Montgomery Raiser, Major players in the Clinton fund raising organization died in a private plane crash in July 1992.


Paul Tulley - Democratic National Committee Political Director found dead in a hotel room in Little Rock, September 1992. Described by Clinton as a "Dear friend and trusted advisor."

Ed Willey - Clinton fund raiser, found dead November 1993 deep in the woods in VA of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Ed Willey died on the same day his wife Kathleen Willey claimed Bill Clinton groped her in the oval office in the White House. Ed Willey was involved in several Clinton fund raising events.

Jerry Parks - Head of Clinton's gubernatorial security team in Little Rock. Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside Little Rock. Park's son said his father was building a dossier on Clinton. He allegedly threatened to reveal this information. After he died the files were mysteriously removed from his house.

James Bunch - Died from a gunshot suicide. It was reported that he had a "Black Book" of people which contained names of influential people who visited prostitutes in Texas and Arkansas.


James Wilson - Was found dead in May 1993 from an apparent hanging suicide. He was reported to have ties to Whitewater.

Kathy Ferguson, ex-wife of Arkansas Trooper Danny Ferguson, was found dead in May 1994, in her living room with a gunshot to her head. It was ruled a suicide even though there were several packed suitcases, as if she were going somewhere. Danny Ferguson was a co-defendant along with Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones lawsuit. Kathy Ferguson was a possible corroborating witness for Paula Jones.


Bill Shelton - Arkansas State Trooper and fiancee of Kathy Ferguson. Critical of the suicide ruling of his fiancee, he was found dead in June,1994 of a gunshot wound also ruled a suicide at the grave site of his fiancee.


Gandy Baugh - Attorney for Clinton's friend Dan Lassater, died by "jumping" out a window of a tall building in January, 1994. His client was a convicted drug distributor.

Florence Martin - Accountant & sub-contractor for the CIA, was related to the Barry Seal Mena Airport drug smuggling case. He died of three gunshot wounds.


Suzanne Coleman - Reportedly had an affair with Clinton when he was Arkansas Attorney General. Died of a gunshot wound to the back of the head, ruled a suicide. Was pregnant at the time of her death.


Paula Grober - Clinton's speech interpreter for the deaf from 1978 until her death December 9, 1992. She died in a one car accident.


Danny Casolaro - Investigative reporter. Investigating Mena Airport and Arkansas Development Finance Authority. He slit his wrists, apparently, in the middle of his investigation.

Paul Wilcher - Attorney investigating corruption at Mena Airport with Casolaro and the 1980 "October Surprise" was found dead on a toilet June 22, 1993 in his Washington DC apartment. Had delivered a report to Janet Reno 3 weeks before his death.


Jon Parnell Walker - Whitewater investigator for Resolution TrustCorp. Jumped to his death from his Arlington, Virginia apartment balcony August 15, 1993. He was investigating the Morgan Guarantee scandal.


Barbara Wise - Commerce Department staffer. Worked closely with Ron Brown and John Huang. Cause of death unknown. Died November 29, 1996. Her bruised nude body was found locked in her office at the Department of Commerce.

Charles Meissner - Assistant Secretary of Commerce who gave John Huang special security clearance, died shortly there after in a small plane crash.

Dr. Stanley Heard - Chairman of the National Chiropractic Health Care Advisory Committee died with his attorney Steve Dickson in a small plane crash. Dr. Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton's advisory council personally treated Clinton's mother, stepfather and brother.

Barry Seal - Drug running pilot out of Mena Arkansas, Death was no accident.


Johnny Lawhorn Jr. - Mechanic, found a check made out to Bill Clinton in the trunk of a car left at his repair shop. He was found dead after his car had hit a utility pole.


Stanley Huggins - Investigated Madison Guarantee. His death was a purported suicide and his report was never released.


Hershell Friday - Attorney and Clinton fund raiser died March 1, 1994 when his plane exploded.

Kevin Ives & Don Henry - Known as "The boys on the track" case. Reports say the boys may have stumbled upon the Mena Arkansas airport drug operation. A controversial case, the initial report of death said, due to falling asleep on railroad tracks. Later reports claim the 2 boys had been slain before being placed on the tracks. Many linked to the case died before their testimony could come before a Grand Jury.

THE FOLLOWING PERSONS HAD INFORMATION ON THE IVES/HENRY CASE:

Keith Coney - Died when his motorcycle slammed into the back of a truck, 7/88.

Keith McMaskle - Died stabbed 113 times, Nov, 1988

Gregory Collins - Died from a gunshot wound January 1989.

Jeff Rhodes - He was shot, mutilated and found burned in a trash dump in April 1989.

James Milan - Found decapitated. However, the Coroner ruled his death was due to "natural causes."


Jordan Kettleson - Was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup truck in June 1990.

Richard Winters - A suspect in the Ives/Henry deaths. He was killed in a set-up robbery July 1989.

THE FOLLOWING CLINTON BODYGUARDS ARE DEAD:

Major William S. Barkley Jr.
Captain Scott J. Reynolds
Sgt. Brian Hanley
Sgt. Tim Sabel
Major General William Robertson
Col. William Densberger
Col. Robert Kelly
Spec. Gary Rhodes
Steve Willis
Robert Williams
Conway LeBleu
Todd McKeehan


Can anyone top that?

[cleanboot]

Bill Clinton....one of my favorite rants...

One of my "friends" says that it is ok that he lied about sex because everybody lies about sex.

I didn't ask her if it would be ok if Her husband lied about sex...

[BBA]

I think this thread needs another go around.

[narayan]

I saw a report on MSNBC or something like that about a year ago about a man in a nice neighborhood who would play chicken with the other neighbors while they were driving running one lady off of the road, had threatened to kill the people of the neighborhood, basically he had the hood scared out of their minds, they would not even let their kids out of the house. Until he threatened to kill one man's wife and kids. When the man saw him coming up the driveway, he ventilated his *** with his .45 and got prison. That man deserves a pardon, or at least a review.

Perhaps if he were a Coke dealer, he would be out of prison by now.

[BBA]

Yea...but clinton would never pardon someone who did a good thing http://www.sysopt.com/forum/biggrin.gif

[Warthog]

haha right on BBA

I agree, narayan.

At least we can look forward to another 4 years of no bad gun laws.

Warthog

[BBA]

At least we can look forward to 4 years of a decent man as President.

[Jeff7]

Right on, BBA - when Gore or McCain gets elected in 2004...until then though, we're stuck with a guy who is stupid, somewhat arrogant, and doesn't give a $&@! about the environment.

[RADAR1797]

Wow Jeff, you hold a lot of esteem for the most powerful man on the planet. One cannot be elected president by being an idiot. George W. Bush will surprise you. As for arrogance, he is far more humble than Clinton, McCain and Gore put together. As for the environment, President Bush is saving the environmentalists from themselves. These weirdos do not take into consideration that Americans demand thier cars and basic items such as electricity. We can strike a good balance, but so far environmentalists have only been good at finding fault with current methods of energy production and have fallen very short of delivering good solutions.

-RADAR

[Jeff7]

Heh, and I tamed that down just a bit. I still don't think he won the presidency fairly; if he was so very sure he had won, he should have fully supported a recount.
One can easily be an idiot and win the presidency. He's just got to have the right advisors that tell him exactly what to say and when to say it. He's also got to have the same name as a previous president - big help there for Bush.
Saving environmentalists from themselves? Huh??? Environmentalists are trying to save the people of the planet who don't give a darn about the environment from themselves. Instead of putting so many resources into finding sources of oil, put that money instead into building nuclear power plants, which produce considerably more energy per unit of fuel than any for of fossil fuel - by orders of magnitude.
Current irrational and baseless fears in the public are also standing in the way of nuclear power, as are oil and coal companies (in part by giving monetary, ahem, "gifts" to the president...).

And I just noticed another flaw with that arguement that an idiot can't be elected as president:
Quite a few people here seem to think Clinton was an idiot. And he was elected twice...

[This message has been edited by Jeff7 (edited 03-25-2001).]

[RADAR1797]

Jeff,

You obviously have not followed the election recount efforts in Florida. Bush has won all the counties with every recount. Now I will make the concession that if you count the double voted ballots in Palm Beach County, then Gore comes closer. But then again, Gore did garner a lot more support from idiots who couldn't even work a voting machine. As for questioning Bush's intellect, we'll all see and I bet he proves you wrong.
Now on the environmental issue, you are completely at odds with the current left-winged environmentalist movement. They think nuclear power, no matter how safe is evil. I will agree with you that nuclear energy is the most efficient power production method we currently have and should be explored further. You seem like you have a bit of sense, so give up this misplaced paranoia of Bush and start looking the man himself instead of the Democratic Party's horrible recreation.

-RADAR


[This message has been edited by RADAR1797 (edited 03-25-2001).]

[Jeff7]

Ok, a few things - I don't seem to take sides wen two extremes are involved. Republican and democrat - I tend more toward democrat, but not fully. I disagree with more republican ideals than I do democrat. Environmental issues - I am not an extremist. Some people think that the planet will be just fine no matter what we do to it. Others think that we should abandon all modern practices completely - cars, electricity, etc. I think we can use modern conveniences, but just use them wisely, and don't waste the resources we have.

And of course, the recount. Why the heck would Bush want to stop a recount? I still think that he should have given as much support to it as Gore did. I just wonder though - if the situation were reversed, how much louder would Bush's campaign team have yelled?

This isn't paranoia against Bush. I know that he has backed down on his word about continuing to reduce greenhouse gases. Already, he's lightened restrictions on power plant emmissions, and he is also trying to use California's power problems as leverage (very little of their power comes from oil by the way). We have already failed to meet our quota for reducing CO2 emmissions, and now Bush is trying to lessen restrictions. I just hope that he doesn't screw up the environment too badly.

And when I look at the man himself - I don't think he should be president. He won out of political leverage - his brother as governor of Florida, a member of his campaign team working for the state, and a majority of the Supreme Court was in his favor. And of course, his name: Bush. George Bush. That probably got him a good deal of votes right there.

[BBA]

Jeff...I think the two list above got George Bush a lot of votes.

As for respecting the man, he's at least ten time more honest than the democrats.

For the recount, Gore tried to steal the votes from the only likely counties that could fabricate them for him...if you don't believe that then you are brainwashed...especially after a machine recount and a hand recount...and indicators from later handcounts where the partial count came from the only districts that would show a gain for gore didn't show enough gain to take it.


Even look at all the things Bush has done, the democrats even agree with his plans after he discusses it with them, he obvuiosly is on a righter track than the liar ever was...and Gore...who has NO BRAIN AT ALL.

Gore...even his own state turned him down...what a joke.

[Jeff7]

And what of the rumors of roadblocks in heavily black communities? I doubt Bush directly requested that, but I also tend to doubt that he'd do anything about. And then there was the other issue of the morons at the press giving Florida to Gore after only a small percentage of the votes were counted. As a result, some voters might have decided not to vote, since it had apparently been decided.

And as for Bush's plans - I don't agree with most of them. Even now, with the economy in a decline, I don't think that a tax cut is the answer. The fed should just reduce the rates to what they were before inflation risks came about. We're finally showing signs of surplus; reducing the government's income will not only wipe out that surplus, but most likely introduce a higher deficit. The national debt is high enough already; time to start paying it off.

[gyoung]

Reducing that tax rate will end up bring more money into government. It happened in the 80's and it'll happen again.
http://www.foxnews.com/views/asman/index.sml

I agree with you to a degree about the environment. Wise is good. But when demand far exceeds supply it is irresponsible not to build more power plants.

One of the best tax plans that I have seen to date is described here in this article: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21697

Another good one comparing the US to the aging Roman Empire: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21781

It doesn't matter about your politics, you should check out these articles by Bill O'Reilly: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/archives.asp?AUTHOR_ID=11

He speaks his mind and he is honest. Something that the government as a whole has been less and less of lately.

I really like his analysis of the voting public from the "Gladiator" article.

50% don't vote
15% vote Republican no matter what
15% vote Democrat no matter what

That leaves 20% for the politicians to fight over.

[This message has been edited by gyoung (edited 03-27-2001).]

[prttybean]

I am sorry, but I happen to agree with Jeff. Bush is not the brightest bulb on the string.

Also, on top of his environmental policy, I happen to think that he will plunge us back into the Cold War era with his foreign policy bumbling. I don't really feel he's arrogant, just dim-witted.

[Fingers]

And you're a registered Democrat...right?

[BBA]

And what of the rumors of roadblocks in heavily black communities? I doubt Bush directly requested that, but I also tend to doubt that he'd do anything about. And then there was the other issue of the morons at the press giving Florida to Gore after only a small percentage of the votes were counted. As a result, some voters might have decided not to vote, since it had apparently been decided.


Jeff...you answered your own question...they were just that: ROMURS... not only that... more WHITE people were ticketed by the road block that wase specifically set up to catch a criminal suspected of being in a certain area at that time.
Geez...even the inquiries proved that was nothing more than a NAACP scam to spread bad press. Where have you been? Come back to reality.


Oh...and the first announcement stopped Bush voters from going to the poles in the western panhandle of Fl that still had voting time left.

Dang...You are SOooooo wrong...

Your funny

[King_Kooba_Fantastique]

This is amazing, how many people can the president pardon ?.

and, can he pardon anyone, or does it depend on the type of sentence ?.

KKF.

[jad1097]

I found his remarks that I have a problem with.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/03/20010316-3.html

There is a lot of discussion about debt reduction, and that's a worthy discussion. The budget I submitted pays down $2 trillion in debt. That's all the debt that's coming due over the next 10 year; that's $2 trillion over 10 years. People say, why don't you pay down more? And for those of you who have debt, long-term debt, know there is a cost to pre-paying debt. And it doesn't make any sense to pay a premium to pre-pay debt with the people's money. That's not good fiscal policy. It doesn't bring any common sense to the budget.

I don't know what premium he is speaking of but I pay debt ASAP. No common sense? I guess there is no interest on this debt. Would it not benefit us in the end to pre-pay debt?

A mortgage is an excellent example of long-term debt. What happens when you pay that 30-year mortgage off in 10 or 15 years? You save $100,000 or more, which is what happens. I am no economics major but I know how to create a proper budget and that pre-paying debt does have benefits.

[RADAR1797]

Most of our national debt is help in treasury bonds. These bonds are sold to people for x number of years for a return on investment when the government buys back the debt. To keep the bonds attractive and consistent, the government would have to pay a penalty if it bought back those bonds early. This prevents the person who bought the bond (basically gave the government a loan) from not receiving the full amount or higher than the agreed interest rate would have accumulated to.

-RADAR

[BBA]

I have to back Radar here...

The Gov't owes it's debt TO the American people...not to other countries as most would think.

The purpose of the national debt is actually circulating more cash. The way to reduce Gov't debt is to stop selling gov't bonds, or stop buying them.

Remember when the national debt was going up so fast? The Gov't was aggressively selling bonds, which is nothing more than cause and effect. ( The same idiots yelling about the debt going up were promoting bonds, lol )

Of course, bonds are not all the debt is made of...a minor part is financial services to banks and credit unions and such.

[jad1097]

So that was the premium he was speaking about.

Fine that makes sense but his comment "And for those of you who have debt, long-term debt, know there is a cost to pre-paying debt" I do not understand. The only long-term debt that most Americans have is a mortgage and usually there is no premium for pre-payments or early payoffs. If people would pay their mortgage bi-weekly they would pay off their 30 year mortgage in roughly 20 years and still save thousands. Most companys will allow this.


As we all know somewhere around 10-20% of our budget is interest. This is what I think needs to be paid off. Or is this interest bonds? If so it is still an outrageous amount.


[This message has been edited by jad1097 (edited 03-29-2001).]

[RADAR1797]

Jad,

Most folks who do not have good credit or do not shop around for a loan, who usually get stuck with a loan that will charge them a penalty if you pay early. It makes very sound economic sense, if I give you $1000 and expect charge you $80 of interest for loaning that money, but you pay it off in 6 months and only pay $40 interest, then I lost $40 in expected revenue. So to hedge that possibilty, I build in a $20 charge if you pay early so I am no totally hurt. That is what the government has done and most banks do.

-RADAR

[This message has been edited by RADAR1797 (edited 03-29-2001).]

[Jeff7]

I see; your point there is valid, BBA. I guess the press pretty much screwed any voters down there by calling it so early.

About the energy problems:
Newseek said that Bush blamed Clinton for not having a good national Energy commission. Now I see in the newpaper that Bush is cutting funds to the Energy council by about $72 million. (I'll confirm those figures in a few hours; am at college right now - a lull between classes.)
And of course, he's pulling out of that Kyoto agreement, to lower CO2 emmissions. We were already behind on that, so now what - just give up??

Ahh, Reagan's era. The national debt tripled during his time in office. That means that the government was losing money. Here it is; in 1980, the debt was about $930,210,000,000.00.
1990:
$3,233,313,451,777.25.

Interesting points there in that "Gladiator" article. Maybe we just aren't intelligent enough as a society to continue to support the good times once they're here. We just think "Well, the hard work is done, and now it'll just stay good by itself."

20% - would really be in the politicians favor to find out the general mindset of said people - know your target audience, then custom tailor a campaign specifically for them, using media channels they will see.

[gyoung]

Jeff7 wrote
Ahh, Reagan's era. The national debt tripled during his time in office. That means that the government was losing money. Here it is; in 1980, the debt was about $930,210,000,000.00.
1990:$3,233,313,451,777.25. The reason for the increase in the national debt was the increase in defense spending. Without which we may not have won the cold war.

Also the reason for the recent prosperity was exactly because of all the tax cuts. We need less money in Washington. Let the federal government take care of roads, the military, and foreign affairs. Let the local and state governments take care of education and the rest. This way we can hold our local officials accountable for how they spend our money.

This would introduce a form of competition in government. If you didn't like the schools in Maine you could move to a state or county had good schools. Let the local government duke it out over services.

Basically the federal government is pandering to interests in state and redistributing money. You have Senators looking for projects to put in their communities with federal monies. So someone in California is paying for something in Vermont. The money California pays in taxes should stay in California.

If you do this you will see populations shift to the places that are fiscally better. States would then be fighting over populations. In doing so they would offer services and incentives for people to move to their state. The more people the more tax revenue the more services. Every state would compete. If a state didn't compete they would go bankrupt.

I've been thinking of this idea for a while. Does anyone agree with me. I may not have written it very clearly, but what do you think of this concept of government? Do you think it would work for states to finance themselves. Did I express this clearly about introducing competition into government? I really think it would work. Everyone always says that the consumer wins when the competition heats up. Wouldn't the taxpayer win if the competition in government heated up?

[This message has been edited by gyoung (edited 03-29-2001).]

[jad1097]

Some good links gyoung. I will finish reading them letter.




[This message has been edited by jad1097 (edited 03-29-2001).]

[daveleau]

William Sterling Anderson, former South Carolina House Speaker Pro Tem, sentenced to 14 months in prison in 1987 for charges stemming from the falsification of customer credit records for his mobile home business in South Carolina

You just gotta love my state. Every reference to it has a built in trailer park reference.... NOT THAT THERE'sS ANYTHING WRONG WITH T.P.'s! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

[jad1097]

That is not long-term debt though.

[gyoung]

jad,

Yes it is. They are talking treasury bonds that they sell for 30 years or more. If you cash it in eary you are assessed a fee. So if the gov't tries to buy it back they have to pay a fee to the people. That is why even if we paid off the debt we couldn't pay it all off.

I guess we need to make a distinction in the national debt. There is debt that is due and then their is debt that cannot be retired because it has not yet come due.

[BBA]

It's still the same principal. If you look at your mortgages and other things...you will see some instances of this.