The RITALIN survey [Archive]

sharder8

03-09-2001, 09:54 AM

falcompsx-- Your right, some kids are just hyper-active! But you are dead wrong when you say there is no such thing as ADD/ADHD!! There are also kids and people who have ADD and are Hyper-Active, that condition is known as ADHD!! Research it, maybe you'll learn something new!!

CMonster -- You have a valid point....too an extent! Many to most kids diagnosed with ADD or ADHD, actually have an allergy (usually some type of food). Statisically, it is estimated that only 3%-5% of Americans have ADD/ADHD). Once again, many to most people prescribed medication, are prescribed the wrong dose even when they do "officially" have ADD or ADHD!

Some things to understand about the way Ritalin, Adderall, and Dexidrine Spansule (the three most common medications for ADD and ADHD) work is that there are two peaks in the dosages. I'll give you a brief explanation:

The first peak in the effectiveness of the dosage effects the patients learning ability. At this dosage, the child has the optimum learning ability. You might or might not see any difference in behavior. If you do see a difference, it will not be a large difference. (This is only true for a true ADD/ADHD person.)

The second peak effects behavior, as you stated "chemical straight-jacket". The person is more easy to control. This is the most common use for these drugs in children, to effect behavior. And is the cause of over prescribing and mis-diagnosing in children today!

The most common misconception of medicating an ADD/ADHD child, is to dose according to behavior. If you do that, you are hurting their ability to learn since you have gone past the optimum learning peak. Yes, the child will be better behaved, but will not be able to learn as they should and/or could.

My oldest daughter has ADHD and is gifted, we went through a lot of testing with her prior to putting her on medication. We also found out that she has a negative reaction to Corn Flakes (we spent 12 weeks monitoring different foods and reactions as far as behavior). This is a common food allergy in kids that causes hyper-activity (something to do with the way the corn is proccessed). She was (and still is) monitored on her dosage and when we were advised to up it, we asked for a second opinion from a Physcologist that specializes in ADD/ADHD. With additional testing, we learned about the two peaks and that for her benefit, we reduced the dosage. Is her behavior worse, HELL YES!! Are her grades better, **** right!! How are her behavior AND grades without medication, pure living HELL for behavior and failing for grades!!!!! WOULD YOU WANT TO KNOWINGLY HANDICAP YOUR CHILD FOR LEARNING? If your child has a major hearing loss, would you deny them (a) hearing aid(s)? If your child can't see to read, would you deny them glasses?

It has recently been shown, (and is before the AMA) studies of the brain that show that the blood flow and brain activity of a person with ADD/ADHD is considerably different than a normal person. They have also categorized ADD/ADHD into 6 distinct Sub-Types based on these studies. Each type has a different medication, diet treatment or both, to provide the patient with the optimum life. (Here are a couple of links for the doubtful: Specifically: http://add.about.com/health/add/library/weekly/aa11013c.htm and http://www.add.about.com/health/add/library/weekly/blfaqadhd.htm

You may also want to do a little research on the work of Dr. Daniel G. Amen.)

I happen to fit into Type 1 Classic. Here's some common questions and answers based on my experience.

1. Has medication changed my life? You better believe it, home, social, and work/employment!!!
2. When was I first diagnosed? -- as a kid.
3. Was I medicated as a child? -- no, not enough was known about dosages and they could not stabilize my dosage. My parents took and kept me off medication after a couple of weeks.
4. When was I re-diagnosed? Age 40.
5. Can you out-grow ADD/ADHD -- Originally it was beleived that you could. In the last few years, it was found that you won't. Unlike those mis-diagnosed because of a food allergy, many times, these people can out-grow the symptoms.
6. Do I believe my life would have been different if I'd been on medication earlier? You'd better believe it!!
7. What is the normal dosage for an adult with ADD? 10mg. of Adderall a day. (Based on testing, I had to take the Ritalin/Adderall push three times at different dosages in order to get the dosage optimum for me, which by the way is slightly below optimum) I take 30mg. of Adderall per day.
7. What is the difference between Ritalin, Adderall, and Dexedrine Spansule?

Ritalin -- length of effects, roller-coaster, 4 hours. Made up of a combination of 2 amphetamine salts. A preparation of methylphenidate A drug, C14H19NO2, chemically related to amphetamine, that acts as a mild stimulant of the central nervous system and is used especially in the form of its hydrochloride.

Adderall -- length of effects, steady, 8 hours. Made up of a combination of 4 amphetamine salts. Combination of Amphetamine and Dextroamphetamine. It is used to treat Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder and Narcolepsy. Adderall is mixed salts of a single-entity amphetamine product. It stimulates the central nervous system by increasing the amount of certain chemicals in the body.

Dexedrine Spansule -- length of effects, steady, 12 hours. A white crystalline compound, C9H13N, that is the dextrorotatory isomer of amphetamine and is used in the form of its phosphate or sulfate salt as a central nervous system stimulant.

For those who think ADD/ADHD isn't real, you are either very ignorant/unlearned or in denial! It's a FACT, it's been PROVEN, it's REAL, and it's TREATABLE!!

Some Doctors classify it as a "mental defect" others classify it as a "mental illness", but the point is falcompsx, CMonster, that it isn't just Psychologists and Psychiatrists, it's Pediatricians, D.M.'s, M.D.'s, and Neurologists, that recognize and diagnose ADD/ADHD as well.

Harder

dafremen

03-09-2001, 10:07 AM

My dad's a Child Psychologist with 35 years of experience in the field. He knew what I had back when they still had another name for it. He put me on medication when I was in 8th grade I believe, but respected my wishes when I asked to be taken off of it because of the stigma associated with "taking my Ritalin". I had completely forgotten about the episode when I went in for some screening at the age of 25 or so. It was about 5 minutes after the Doctor asked me to tell him something about my history that he KNEW I was ADD. Once I was on the medication, I finally had the ability to focus. I iss being ME when I'm medicated, but with the medication I get the best of both worlds. I can go off of it when I need to be creative and spontaneuos. Then take it again when I need to concentrate and produce.

My last supervisor was a man I repsected very much for quite a few years, until one day when I overheard him telling another co-worker a joke about ADD. He went on to tell this guy that ADD was a bunch if b.s. that people made up as an excuse. Sorry, but for me, this is something I have to deal with on a daily basis. It's not a crutch, it's a curse, but it's also a gift. It's hard to describe, but one thing's for sure, it's **** sure real.

8| Daffy

P.S. Look for a book called Answers To Distraction. The best book on the subject. You will be suprised.

sharder8

03-09-2001, 10:21 AM

Hey CMonster -- Have you checked that guy, Dr. Peter Breggin, out??????

Here some info:

What else does Dr. Peter Breggin believe?
The following quotes are from the book "The Psychology of Freedom - Liberty and Love as a Way of Life" by Peter R. Breggin, M.D. The book was published in 1980 by Prometheus Books.

On Sex Among Children
"'What if your daughter wants to have sex at age ten? Or what if she is taking drugs?' Whether my children have sex or take drugs should be no concern of mine unless I can really argue it is causing them harm. Even then, I have to prove my viewpoint to them, since I cannot use force." page 178

"As I dramatized in After the Good War, permitting children to have sex among themselves would go a long way toward liberating them from oppressive parental authority. This is the main reason that parents fight so hard to prevent sex between children. Sexual freedom would allow their children to become truly independent of them." - page 209

On Moral Authority
"Moral authority is always oppressive.... Most forms of psychotherapy, most aspects of psychiatry in general, nearly all religions, and most parents are moral authorities." - page 233

On Parental Authority
"If a man grows up believing that his father's word is law, he will never become fully rational in understanding the oppressive effects of authoritarian religious, educational, or political institutions, and he may be tempted to indoctrinate his own children in submission to authority." - page 76

On Parental Discipline
"Here is a good test of whether a punishment is legitmate - can your child use the same punishment on you?" ... "A parent has one legitimate, effective, and usually sufficient method of punishment - judiciously expressed anger. When a child assaults you or compromises your freedom, show him or her that you are angry." ... Making a child stay at home, or 'grounding', in current slang, is one of the most contradictory, absurd, and self-destructive actions a parent can take." - page 168

On Parental Obligation
"For children to maintain voluntary relationships with their parents, they must have the right to 'run away' - to seek out more advantageous homes for themselves. If society recognized this right, a major step would be taken toward reforming the family. Each parent would have to offer his or her children a good home or risk losing them to a better offer."

On Teaching Good Habits
"Most attempts to make a child learn one or another good habit turn out to be cases of parental bullying." - page 177

On Ethics
"Many things must be allowed in the interest of freedom, even unethical conduct." - page 77

On Keeping a Promise
"Remember that you have sovereign authority to break any contract that turns out to offend libertarian principles." - page 61

On Law and Order
"I happen to like America better than other nations because it permits more freedom and diversity. I especially approve of the Bill of Rights. But, in general, I find most of the laws of the land to be coercive and unjust.... As far as I am concerned, I want them (his children) to grow up with a healthy, happy disregard for all forms of authority and coercion." - page 176

On Compassion for the Mentally Ill
"I also believe that the term "schizophrenia" does reflect to some degree upon a human phenomenon, an extreme of utter irresponsibility that I prefer to label 'craziness.'" - page 69

Man CMonster can you pick'em for your references!! Want more on this Quack? Start here: http://www.add.about.com/health/add/library/weekly/aa081600a.htm

Then go here: http://www.google.com/search?q=Peter+Breggin&sourceid=opera&num=0

Harder

CMonster

03-09-2001, 11:50 AM

sharder8 -If you don't like the message attack the messenger - right?

I'm sure that you can find "terrible things" when you take quotes out of context without reading the entire works or understanding the background under which those comments are made.

As for ADD/ADHD etc-these are just labels used to describe certain types of behavior. In truth there are people, and people with problems.

The philiosophy of psychology has become almost a religion and I have heard all the zealots out evangelizing on its behalf, but for all the advancements is society better?

daferman - I'm not attacking you personally, so don't get riled. You had some very difficult situations and emotional trauma at an early age according to information given by you yourself in another post here at sysopt, so there is probably a very legitimate underlying cause of your behavioral pattern.

In truth though, give yourself a break - lots of us had 10-20 jobs before age 18. First off we were young and immature, second those jobs probably didn't pay squat. Then you get older and mature a little and have responsibilities and get better jobs and keep them a little longer. As for the rest of your behavior, it sounds like the life of Thomas Edision - and look at what happened when he followed his dream. I'm sure that with a little Ritalin Edison would have made a fine acountant.

Finally - most school is boring and we need to address the teaching methods in order to bring about interactive learning for our children.

It is generally true that a little speed will improve the concentration of most people - and that is basically what Ritalin is - speed, so let's give it to everyone.

While we are at it we can put lithium in the drinking water - don't laugh, its been proposed before.

Enjoy the "soma."

[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 03-09-2001).]

sharder8

03-09-2001, 01:03 PM

No, after 18, but before medication, otherwise I would still be there!

"Your "known medical conditions" are not accepted in every country or by every culture or in every language."

Your right, the Amazon Indians, and many third world countries don't recoginize it. But then again, how mainstream are they in our society?

"These are labels for behavioral types."

ADD/ADHD USED to be classified as a behavioral problem. It has since been re-classified as a medical/neurological disorder/Chemical Imbalance for several years. Therefore, your statement is antiquated, mis-leading, and now false!

Harder

Fingers

03-09-2001, 01:04 PM

Hey CMonster, you're not alone... it's just that I took it on the chin last time I made my opinion on this subject known, and for me, it's simply not worth revisiting it again.

CMonster

03-09-2001, 01:39 PM

Parents against Ritalin (http://www.p-a-r.org/tableof.html) is just one of many informative sites dealing with the Ritalin controversy.

Many (not all) children are misdiagnosed ADD/ADHD and have these labels stuck on them when in fact they need attention from parents, mental stimulation, proper diet, and adequate excercise.

As adults I am surprised at how many people get horribly frustrated when they have to sit in traffic for an hour or more - and yet they cannot empathize with children who are expected to sit hours on end in boring classes in forgotten schools.

CMonster

03-09-2001, 01:42 PM

sharder8 - Exactly which chemicals are out of balence and what or how does Ritalin bring these into balence?

Nobody is sure how it works. (http://detnews.com/1998/metrox/ritalin/1dosage/1dosage.htm)

Fingers - thanks.

[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 03-09-2001).]

Richard_Cranium72

03-09-2001, 02:05 PM

I was a straight A student till about the 5th grade. Then several things took place. All unpleasant.

35 years later after a 6 week testing at a local hospital and $3,500.00 later I was diagnosed with ADD and Narcolepsy .

My life before medication consisted of up to 14 hrs per day of sleep.
During my waking hours my attention span was so short I could not fulfill the most simple of tasks, written tests or oral speaking in front of groups was totally pitiful.

Now after medication, I speak at local environmental groups, do research, compile data, organize clean-up activities and head up several efforts at work.

I agree in part with some of each respondent here , however several have holes in their theory. I resist argument with those who are "sure" they are right cause there is no gain to be made.

Some people with ADD like me have several medical problems, including but not limited to brain damage.

During my testing period this was made very clear to me as to the magnitude of my weaknesses.
I have NO ability to add, subtract or do simple math in my head except for division.

I can however remember complex number sequences that baffle co-workers, you know part #'s mfg id's , phone no.s etc

I agree that we have overmedicated and probably under diagnosed or kids, we all want a quick fix.

My folks would get so mad at me thinking that I was just NOT Trying, but I was.

My brain function was so fast that I could cover 10 subjects between each word the teacher would speak, the medication slows me down to a more normal pace..

I presently do about 60mg/day of Adderall, I tried Ritilan and it had NO effect. Dextroamphetamine of 60mg/day also had NO effect.
A "normal" person taking this medicine in this quantity would probably have a heart attack or at least be stuck to the ceiling.

On my medication my b/p is 110/72 pulse 57
Without it, or previously it was a bit more at 120/80 pulse 72, my sleeping pulse is 36, not too bad for a nearly 50 yr old male who eats a overly rich diet.

There are no magic bullets, our health care professionals are trying to help,, most of them anyway..

DrVette

dafremen

03-09-2001, 02:08 PM

A lot of people don't know how their DirectTV box works either. That doesn't keep them from watching T.V. They know that they press power and hit the channel buttons and the damned thing works. The same goes for my medication. There are a LOT of things that science doesn't know. Here's one of the things they do: Ritalin has been helping a lot of people for many years with little or no side effects for just as long.

I don't need to know how the reults are achieved, I'll take the results. Thank you methylphenidate!

8) Daffy

[This message has been edited by dafremen (edited 03-09-2001).]

sharder8

03-09-2001, 03:46 PM

CMonster -- Per your question "Exactly which chemicals are out of balence and what or how does Ritalin bring these into balence?" Paragraph 2 of your own link gives you about as much as they know! (I haven't done much research, before today, in the last couple of years.)

Best known by the brand name Ritalin, methylphenidate (METH-el-FEN-i-date) was introduced in 1956 and is a stimulant in the same class as amphetamines. Most experts agree that it affects the midbrain, the part of the brain that controls impulses. Methylphenidate most likely changes the balance of chemicals in the brain, so that it can more selectively respond to impulses.

Daffy's response also needs to be added in! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

As for your edit to limit it to the Western Hemi-sphere, look here: http://www.add.about.com/health/add/library/weekly/aa030299.htm

Doc -- Thanks for adding your .02! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif I wasn't looking for you to back me, (you did a pretty good job of staying fairly neutral http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif ) but I felt you had some knowledge based on experience, to add.

CMonster -- Whether you admit it or beleive it, we all agree on several things!

1. Many are mis-diagnosed!
2. Many are over dosed!
3. Medication isn't neccessarily the only or best treatment, diet and exercise should be part of the treatment.
4. Schools, teachers, and parents all can help play a part in getting and keeping children entertained. (But realize for an "true" ADD/ADHD child, it takes much more than for a normal child!)

Nosce Te Ipsum
Noli Me Tangere

Harder

CMonster

03-09-2001, 04:04 PM

..and I don't understand how a brown cow can eat green grass under a blue sky and give white milk - but I drink it.

Ritalin does indeed help some people, no disputing that, but there are usually other, and sometimes better ways to get back into harmony/balance with life.

Ritalin is not a panacea. I would venture to say that upwards of 90% of Ritalin prescriptions are missing the mark.

[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 03-09-2001).]

BBA

03-09-2001, 04:35 PM

I can say anyone who walks into a doctors office, and 5 minutes after he asks questions on background can say your ADD...your doctor is stupider than you think!

If ADD is something so much misdiagnosed ( which I believe it is ) then how can a teacher diagnose it? How can a school nurse diagnose it?

These are the atrocities that happen far too often. If there is a detectible difference in brain activity of blood flow in an ADD patient...wouldn't that mean the best way to diagnose it is by physical methods of brain examination...which would go a lot deeper than the usual "he is always causing trouble and not paying attention in class" method currently used today.

I just believe that each person should overcome his weaknesses to the best of his ability without a crutch to blame...that is what overcoming and personal growth is about.

If you cant depend on yourself to fix your ill's...then be prepared to be someones puppet in the end!

Richard_Cranium72

03-09-2001, 05:02 PM

Thanks BBA, you said it for me however in a different tone.

quote---------
"I can say anyone who walks into a doctors office, and 5 minutes after he asks questions on background can say your ADD...your doctor is stupider than you think"

*NOTE* My diagnosis took 6 weeks at a cost of $3.5k , as I remember over 75 different doctors devised the testing regimen.

So obviously no single doctor can in a short time make a judgement of this magnitude..

CMonster

03-09-2001, 05:30 PM

Standing on one's head also changes blood flow to the brain.

Maybe I'm just mad because my doctor won't give me any Ritalin!

CMonster

03-09-2001, 05:34 PM

caddmannq -

speaking of Hannibal... do you know why he doesn't like rich kids? -because they're spoiled! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

... do you know what Hannibal likes best about Domino's pizza? -the delivery boy! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

-sorry folks, I couldn't resist - haven't had my meds today.

[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 03-09-2001).]

sharder8

03-09-2001, 06:08 PM

BBA and DrVette --

You both have valid points, but you may not have gotten all the info. I'm assuming (bad, bad, bad) that daffy had the same experience I had. In my case, I was talking to the Dr. about my daughter and looking for something better than raising her dosage. After talking to him for about 5 min., he stated he thought I had ADD and asked if I would come in for testing.

The testing I went through was over a period of aprox. 3-4 months. Like I mentioned earlier, I went through the Ritalin/Adderall Push or Challenge 3 times. I also went through weekly consultations with additional testing during this time. I don't know how many other doctors were involved, but I do know my doctor consulted with others over my results. I don't remember the cost because my insurance took care of it. In my daughters case, she went through testing, observation, and evaluations for about 8 months (thank God for insurance) before she was prescribed any medication. Her Pediatrician was well noted for being anti-Ritalin and wanted to find anything and everything he could to rule out ADHD. After about 8 months, he had to conclude that she did have it, need treatment for it (notice I said treatment and not medication). He reluctantly prescribed Ritalin with additional stipulations of diet, exercise, and behavioral modification training for her, Mom, and me.

BBA -- You are hitting one nail squarely on the head!!! "If ADD is something so much misdiagnosed ( which I believe it is ) then how can a teacher diagnose it? How can a school nurse diagnose it?" They can't!!!! They are a big part of the mis-diagnosis problem! Parents are right behind them in believing that their child has ADD/ADHD based solely on behavior! If you go back a few posts, you'll see that I mentioned some food allergies as producing the same symptoms many attribute to ADD/ADHD. The parents, teachers, and school nurses then pressure the Dr. to prescribe.

The part about brain scans showwing blood flow and activity are very new and show great promise in the correct diagnosis and treatment, but are still not fully accepted by many doctors. If you read up on Dr. Daniel Amen, you will see that his findings show that medication alone is not the answer. Diet and excercise play a role and stimulants aren't always the answer depending on what sub-type of ADD/ADHD the patient has.

Personally, as a former Military Officer and having a degree in Phys. Ed/coaching, I've always been extremely anti-drugs of any kind. It wasn't until I reluctantly went through testing and found out what a difference Adderall made in my life that I can accept my taking of the drug. I have never told a parent I think their kid needs medication, however I have recommended that they take their child to a competent Dr. in a large city for testing.

Finally BBA, in response to your statement "I just believe that each person should overcome his weaknesses to the best of his ability without a crutch to blame...that is what overcoming and personal growth is about.
If you cant depend on yourself to fix your ill's...then be prepared to be someones puppet in the end!" I don't blame my past on ADD or use Adderall for a crutch! I succeeded at any and everything I wanted to do prior to my taking medication. So I don't need it to succeed, but it sure makes everyday life more bearable and easy when I want to focus on something like talking to the CMonster's and falcompsx's of the world. (Off medication, I wouldn't have responded. I would have considered them so full of B.S. that they weren't worth wasting my time on! And I think that is a S-A-D attitude to have when talking to someone such as CMonster, whom I've always thought was on top of things.)

Harder

CMonster

03-09-2001, 06:54 PM

I am entitled to express my opinion and concerns as is everyone else.

I believe that I have been civil in these discussions here, and I have tried not to belittle others by attacking the messenger or make comments referring to the "so-and-so's of the world."

There is tremendous research on both sides of this issue and plenty of medical facts -one of these facts is that Ritalin is of no physical benefit to the body.

There are obivously two sharply divided camps, each defensive of their respective position, and many people inbetween. Those using the drug are naturally the most defensive.

For now I am reminded of a quote from an old housemother of mine (from the boy's home) who used to say (especially as she debated with me on various subjects):

"Convince a fool against his will the fool remaineth still."

Now you may think this applies to me and I may think this applies to you.

Indeed it will all come out in the wash -"Time will out" is one of my favorite phrases.

I am convinced that there is yet a deeper reality, a level of spirituality and awareness that transcends the physical universe, and the perception of this meager dream -seek it out and health and well-being will follow.

In closing - I think that if Thomas Edison had been placed on Ritalin at an early age he might have made a fine accountant.

[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 03-09-2001).]

Ritalin Kid

03-09-2001, 06:57 PM

Wow, I just asked for a survey of people who took Ritalin or ADD related drugs.. I didn't expect a debate, especially one this size..

I bet you ask yourself, "Does the Ritalin Kid realy take Ritalin?" well the answer is no... I have been on it for a short period of time.. my grade improved slightly but I was that concerned I was an average student and day dreaming wasn't all that bad.. Each teacher has a method or routine of teaching, I don't know if it was ADD related but I just picked up on that and played along only when I had to...

I believe Ritalin in a way restricts a childs imagination or creativity... It is give to children to make them "Normal" but what is normal anyway..

I do notice that having ADD I don't care with subjects that I have no interest in.. I mean I can try to be interested but it just won't work.. I start thinking about what I do like... In the middle of Acounting 202 I will sometimes just start to multiply bus speeds for the hell of it or start sketching designs or writing script for webpages...

I also notice that when it comes to tests in subjects I don't care for I can study last minute and pass with a b or c no problem.. I think the only way I could get interested in the subject was if the teacher acted interested in what they teached... if they just taught through a daily routine then I would soon turn into a vegtable..

I really don't have much of an opinnion on Ritalin because I can say it's not for me but then again for others, they really like what it does for them..

But I was still interested to know exactly how many of you ADD (Ritalin or non Ritalin) use caffine or tobacco (or both) products in larger than normal amounts..

falcompsx

03-09-2001, 07:28 PM

ADD, ADHD, whatever you want to call it, it's just a lazy copout from reality. "If you can't control your kids, just drug them up." seems to be mental state of people these days. Just like insomnia, sure it's a real condition, but you don't need drugs to treat it, just some good old COMMON SENSE. Something that most of our society is lacking today.

CMonster

03-09-2001, 11:11 PM

ADD, ADHD, whatever you want to call it, it's just a lazy copout from reality. "If you can't control your kids, just drug them
up."

falcompsx - this is perhaps too broad a generalization but I bet it describes almost 90% of cases.

I believe in Attention Deficit Disorder - at the very least many of these children are suffering from a lack of attention from parents, because there are parents who will not or cannot supply the nurture, guidence and instruction necessary for healthy emotional growth.

Furthermore, numerous studies have shown that the mental state of an individual affects body chemistry more than body chemistry could ever affect the mental state. This supports the idea that the mind can make the body sick and the mind can help the body heal.

Laughter has long been touted for its ability to help the body heal. In a similar way even establishing relationships with pets has been documented to produce profoundly positive changes in biochemistry and emotional states.

I may be bi-polar by some man's definition, but I live for my lucid and manic moments!

Finally, if 9 out of 10 people have dandruff - hold the "Head n'Shoulders," dandruff must be normal. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 03-09-2001).]

dafremen

03-10-2001, 12:13 AM

Yes, I DO have several issues that stem from my early childhood. However after finally meeting my biological family after 21 years.(I was adopted at age 9 remember and had really never known my biological family.)

My Aunt Jackie, Kay and Donna are all absolutely driven to distraction. Kay gets about 5 hours of sleep a night and is up with a smile on her face at 4:30 am. Jackie is in the Air Force and NEVER stops in for more than 10 minutes at a time...then WHOOOSH she's out the door. They're all ADD as hell. Probably the most common thing in the world is for people who don't HAVE Attention Deficit to say that it doesn't exist. It's also one of the hardest things to have to hear from someone. Mainly because it means you think that I'm crying out for attention or something when I do something about it, like get medication.

But when I drop the medication, you think I'm crying out for attention or out of rebellion because I can't keep my mind or my feet still.

It's a catch-22 and I spent years trying to figure out how to solve my personal dilemma. Problem solved.

For those of you who don't BELIEVE in the REALITY of my daily struggle, screw you, your belief is not required. Consider yourself fortunate to not have the proof staring you in the brain every morning when you wake up; like it does so many of us.

8| Daffy

BDAWBTP

03-10-2001, 12:29 AM

I have a 7 year old who has ADHD, he was diagnosed last year. Since he has been on Adderol his grades have improved dramatically. He has even noticed a difference. He is able to focus on his school work, and actually enjoys school now.
We don't keep him medicated 24/7, just during school. On the weekends we usually let him be himself. He is alot happier now.

If your kid is so screwed up he cant function in school...put them in a psych ward!

That has to be one of the MOST IGNORANT things I have ever heard!!!

If you have no knowledge on the subject you are posting to , then don't post at all.
It is real, whether you want to believe it or not.

Bill

sharder8

03-10-2001, 12:32 AM

CMonster -- I'm surprised at you!!! (BTW, this type of ignorance does rile me up!! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif )

I have read the book "Toxic Psychiatry" by Dr. Peter Breggin (note, it is spelled with 2 g's). And while there is some good points and logic, Dr. Breggin isn't even in this universe in many areas. Dr. Breggin has been called on the carpet more than once for his statements, presented facts, that even he admits are un-deniable facts, and still stands by his statements. Is he vocal, yes beyond a doubt! But is his thinking and beliefs 100% correct or fact? Re-read previous sentence!

You failed to read my earlier post in which it was stated "It has recently been shown, (and is before the AMA) studies of the brain that show that the blood flow and brain activity of a person with ADD/ADHD is considerably different than a normal person. They have also categorized ADD/ADHD into 6 distinct Sub-Types based on these studies. Each type has a different medication, diet treatment or both, to provide the patient with the optimum life. (Here are a couple of links for the doubtful: Specifically: http://add.about.com/health/add/library/weekly/aa11013c.htm and http://www.add.about.com/health/add/library/weekly/blfaqadhd.htm
You may also want to do a little research on the work of Dr. Daniel G. Amen.)"

Now for some more corrections to your last post:

" First off we were young and immature, second those jobs probably didn't pay squat. Then you get older and mature a little and have responsibilities and get better jobs and keep them a little longer."

I'm 43, I've held jobs that pay in the 6 figures, I've been a part of NORAD and responsible for 638,000 sq. acres with up to 10,000 troops training at one time, considered very mature for my age (mid 20's at the time), considered up and rising. What happened? Lost interest and moved on to other things!

"As for ADD/ADHD etc-these are just labels used to describe certain types of behavior. In truth there are people, and people with problems."

These are not labels!! They're known medical conditions that are clearly defined, yet little is understood about what causes it. There isn't a known cure, only some ways to treat it to help THAT person who has it to mainstream into society.

Please realize I'm only trying to enlighten you to the facts! I do/did not intend to insult your intelligence or lack there of! But this is the type of a closed un-learned mind that we, who truly do have, have to deal with! (You and your thinking are not alone in the world! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif )

Harder

P.S. I'm waiting for Dr. Vette to jump into this! Dr. Vette, where are you?

CMonster

03-10-2001, 12:50 AM

sharder8 - did you make 6-figures before age 18?

ALL language is description, labels. Your "known medical conditions" are not accepted in every country or by every culture or in every language. These are labels for behavioral types. <edit - added> This seems to be mainly a "Western" phenominon - I guess ADD/ADHD is racist in that the problem does not seem to extend much to those backwards Asians - although I think China would love the idea of an additional avenue of chemical control over the populace.

We can look at a tree, give it a scientific name, describe it and its relationship to enviroment in prose, or chemically, or even mathematically - but in the end it is what it is; and you as the observer are part of it, one with it, but you are not even aware of it. In a similiar way there are people - and we all have problems.

Your "enlightenment" may be but a dim reflection of the light of reality.

[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 03-09-2001).]

dafremen

03-11-2001, 10:14 AM

I've come to two realizations about this thread. It basically consists of two types of people:

Those whose lives have somehow been touched by Attention Deficit Disorder and those who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

I mean this falcompsx character. There's your classic ignorant biggot. Hey just replace the stigma of ADD and taking Ritalin with being black and we're THERE!

What's the difference? Well first off, I'm lucky enough in that my handicap doesn't come with a purely physical manifestation that singles me out for morons to come up to me on the street and tell me that it doesn't exist. That's nice. Of course when they DO find out there's always the imbecile who thinks that "Spaz go take your Ritalin!" is going to bother me after so many years.

Then there are THESE so-called intellectuals. Those privileged few in our society who have some how determined that the secret to knowing everything is to form an OPINION about everything, whenther you know anything about it or not. Well gentlemen, all of my years of experience aside I am going to have to defer to your complete ignorance and say...you're right. It's all a big scam to dope kids up and give union teachers a break! In order to give credence to this hoax, I and several others are taking the medication as adults in order to divert any suspicion away from the teachers. It's not the Democrats OR the Republicans that re behind it, it's Saddam Hussein. It's his sinister plan to have this huge COP-OUT become accepted by our society so that Americans will become lazier and lazier, more and more vegetated until finally we'll be unable to wage war against him and he can finally take over the world's oil supply and blackmail our country for it's finest swimsuit models.

I hope I've made my point. It's easy to make assertions based on nothing. That is what you are all doing. You have NOTHING to go on but group ignorance. Ramble on folx, yer blowing in the wind.

CMonster

03-11-2001, 11:58 AM

If all else fails attack the messenger -imply their ignorance, and get deffensive.

I have read both sides of the issue because I have a vested interest in that I have experienced the issue personally, through family members, and during my association and treatment with so-called mental health care professionals, not to mention the hundreds of troubled youth that I observed as I shared years of my life with them while living in an instution.

When it comes to mental health and the brain there are no real experts -all of this is an inexact science and educated guesswork.

All I am saying is try to get to the root of the problem and weed it out. Otherwise you can just keep bandaging over it chemically for the rest of your life. The body knows that this drug doesn't belong there and purges it out. Even those touting Ritalin's benefits know that it interferes with HGH and can stunt growth in the young -this is one reason why using minimum effective dosage is important and discontinuing use on weekends and at vacation times is often recommended.

sharder8

03-11-2001, 04:40 PM

I wasn't going to add any more fuel to the fire, but, .....

Recent studies have shown that the use of Ritalin/Adderall has no correlation with growth!!

Recent studies have also shown that ADD/ADHD people have a different, specifically, delayed growth pattern.

I, for one, started out as one of the tallest kids in my class, by the time I was a Senior, I was one of the shortest. (Remember, I was on medication for only a couple of weeks when I was in Elementary School.) I graduated from High School at 5'6" and 176lbs. Two years later, I was 6'0" and 154lbs. A two year, 6" growth spurt at 18-19 years of age IS NOT normal. I am the tallest in my family of 7 kids and one of the tallest on both sides of my family in my generation.

CMonster -- The growth issue is one of the things that I didn't specifically mention when I pointed out that Dr. Breggin, was shown the facts, admitted the facts were undeniable, still stood by his statement. But in your defense, you made some very important statements in your last response to Daffy.

"When it comes to mental health and the brain there are no real experts -all of this is an inexact science and educated guesswork."

Yet progress is being made every day, more and more is being learned about the brain and how it functions. So much has been learned about ADD/ADHD and the brain in just the last 5 years. And you deny any advances based on your experiences of the past.

And the second GREAT STATEMENT you made:

"All I am saying is try to get to the root of the problem and weed it out. Otherwise you can just keep bandaging over it chemically for the rest of your life."

It would be nice to cure ADD/ADHD, but not enough is known, even you admit that with your statement above! At this time, all that science knows what to do is to provide some stability and focus to an ADD/ADHD person through the use of medication, diet, exercise, and education.

bdunn -- Sorry to say, that is one of the bad side effects of those drugs! And unfortunately, you had to go through it. I haven't so I can not comment on what you went through. As for the short stature, is it possible that this was something in your genes and didn't have anything to do with the medication? (Just a thought)

Harder

Richard_Cranium72

03-11-2001, 05:14 PM

For the record, I was over 40 when diagnosed

King_Kooba_Fantastique

03-11-2001, 05:31 PM

Some of you talk like you think your doctors or scientists, cute.

These drugs are prescribed for 'extreme' cases. But thanks to careless and ill educated medical staff, any people receive medication when all they need is some back bone, and some attention, from parents friends and loved ones, from people who care enough to understand and react.

KKF.

Richard_Cranium72

03-11-2001, 05:37 PM

KKF, this is flaming, putting you on thin ice.

I suggest that you curtain this type of comment..

DrVette

CMonster

03-11-2001, 06:23 PM

I think it should be obivous by now that I am not saying there is no legitimate use for medication. However, I am furious at the rampant misdiagnosis and medication of perfectly normal children. There are many natural and healthy alternatives to chemical constraints. In some cases it is necessary to medicate in order to bring enough stability to an individual so that effective treatment of the real underlying causes may be acomplished.

sharder8

03-11-2001, 10:38 PM

CMonster -- Now there is a good reply that I can't find anything to argue with! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

You are and have a right to be angry with all the mis-diagnosing and medicating of normal children. I also agree there is way to much! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif (Note -- I've pointed out several times that there are some food allergies that show the same symptoms as ADD/ADHD and that should be eliminated at the start of the diagnosis phase.)

I also agree "That there are many natural and healthy alternatives to chemical constraints" including diet, excercise, and education.

And I agree "In some cases it is necessary to medicate in order to bring enough stability to an individual so that effective treatment of the real underlying causes may be acomplished." But the Mi$$ion Dollar question must now be asked! What if nobody has yet been able to find the underlying cause?

That's where those of us who have gone through a lot of testing to verify that there REALLY is a problem in the way the brain is working are! They don't know exactly why and they don't know how to cure it. But they know how to treat it with medication, diet, exercise, and training in order to give these people a life that is MUCH closer to what everyone else is living.

I've got to agree with Daffy 100%, that it is both a curse and a blessing! A more true statement could not be made for those who really have ADD/ADHD!

Harder

bdunn

03-12-2001, 12:21 AM

I am 33 and took ritalin as a little kid in grade school in the early 70s.

I Dont remember much how it effected me in the short term but I do remember how difficult it was to come off of.

It took forever to cut the dose and then I had to take something else for awhile or I couldnt sleep at night. IT was terrible. I wouldn't put one of my kds thru that.

I also suspect that it is the reason why thruout grade school I was always the shortest kid. I'll always be the shortest guy in my family at 5"6' but there's not much I can do about it.

King_Kooba_Fantastique

03-12-2001, 03:44 AM

Hey there DrVette, read through my post again, point taken, dont worry, it came out wrong, it wasnt meant to be a flame http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif.

So long,
KKF.

dafremen

03-12-2001, 05:31 AM

Well it's nice to see that you folx have finally found your common sense and have decided to put THAT on public display rather than its counterpart. If some of you felt I was being antagonistic...c'est la vie. We all have our crosses to bear, don't we?

For those of you who thought I was being defensive, here's a little mental scenario for you to play out:

You are paralyzed from the waist down and are now using a wheelchair for all of your locomotive needs. It HELPS you to lead a semi-normal life. NO the wheelchair isn't gunna cure your condition. No doubt your muscles are going to atrophy and YES you're going to get sores if you're not careful.

You can MOOOVE though, and suddenly you can be a PRODUCTIVE member of society. Suddenly instead of being a burden to others, you are able to take care of yourself and you feel REAL good about what you've accomplished. You haven't heard the word "GIMP" in months.

All is well and good until that one day. You overhear 5 of your co-workers having a discussion. 3 of them are stating that people in wheelchairs are just FAKING it
for special treatment. The other 2 are trying to defend your position, but the "educators" in the group are just loudly spitting out rhetoric and basically with each word spoken, are TEARING away at that illusion you had built up in your mind, that you were a normal PART of society. That you were accepted AS you were, no questions asked as long as you pulled your weight.

Can you imagine what's going through your mind? Who are these lunatics? Where do they get these ABSURD ideas? "It's real guys",you say to yourself, "Hey I'm rolling proof." You try to make a joke of it, but they keep going and going. Trying to DENY the personal cross that you've chosen to bear with dignity rather than die with it.

Sounds farfetched huh? Cuz let's face it a wheelchair and a paraplegic, that's pretty easy to prove and see. Now replace the wheelchair with a drug that allows them to walk again for a few hours with each dose.
Let's say the discussion is about whether or not they NEED that medication. Whether or not their condition is REAL.

Back to ADD. The condition IS real. I have it, badly. I have gone now about 6 months without my medication. I had no withdrawals, I feel badly for anyone that does. I am having serious repercussions to my professional and personal life. I honestly cannot sit at my desk and do my job. Can't do it. Must be nice to be able to get LOST in a task. I've been there before...on my Ritalin...other than that, I don't know the experience.

If you were born with two good legs, and a brain that works normally for you, I'm VERY happy to hear it. You've been blessed. Some of us were not so fortunate. Think about it.

Yes I feel that it gets overdiagnosed. Yes it pisses me off to no end the way the media has been portraying this drug that has allowed me to go from working as an assembler for $6.25 an hour to a Software Engineer making $35. I couldn't have come this far without the Ritalin, and anything that jeopardizes my ability to GET my medication also puts my DREAMS in jeopardy.
To me THAT is something worth getting defensive about.

8| Daffy

[This message has been edited by dafremen (edited 03-13-2001).]

Richard_Cranium72

03-12-2001, 06:13 AM

Great Post dafremen

Another point I'd like to make.

When co-workers are even commenting on your health problems, you can really turn up the heat if you wish.

How ? Try the Americans with Disabilities Act

Companies, workers,, NO ONE can ridicule you for having a health problem.

I'll try to quote the statute.

"To be considered an American with a disability, a person only has to be judged by others as to be "different/disabled"

If a person has a prominent scar, or obvious mental deficiency or just thought of by co-workers as "slow" he falls under this statute"

I murdered that quote, but that is the gist of it..

So even in this forum, if someone makes fun of another for being disabled, he could possibly run the risk of legal problems.

Fingers

03-12-2001, 04:38 PM

Knowing our legal system, the above statement could well be true, but I certainly hope the ADA doesn't really extend to the point where people can no longer judge for themselve what they consider "normal" and "abnormal".

MYTH: Everyone claims to be covered under the ADA.

FACT: The definition of "individual with a disability" is fraught with conditions and must be applied on a case-by-case basis.

Source; United States Dept of Justice - MYTHS AND FACTS ABOUT THE AMERICANS WITH DISABILITIES ACT. http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/pubs/mythfct.txt

I scanned the sections that I thought might be pertinent, and didn't see anything that would apply to anything that has been said here so far.
ADA Regulations and Technical Assistance Materials (http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/publicat.htm)

Richard_Cranium72

03-12-2001, 05:50 PM

Fingers, I do not appreciate you calling me a liar like El-Dremel..

Obviously you are scared of something to not post your e-mail, which I was going to keep this private,, BUT

As I stated, you can accept what I posted and take it as FACT, I've already done the research on the subject..

dafremen

03-12-2001, 08:38 PM

You can in fact sue under the ADA if you are discriminated against or made to feel harrassed because of your ADD. Contact ChADD(Children/Adults with ADD) they'll get you in contact with one of the few attornies to successfully win those ADA claims. I think the idea of suing over it is bad press myself. I just want the folx that say ADD doesn't exist to realize how much they look like the biggots that they probably hate.

My last word on it..maybe http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

8) Daffy

[This message has been edited by dafremen (edited 03-12-2001).]

Dputiger

03-12-2001, 09:38 PM

All I can say is this: Adderral changed my life immeasurably for the better. And I was diagnosed at the age of 21.

sharder8

03-12-2001, 11:18 PM

dafremen --

Your post about the comparrison of the paraplegic in the wheel chair was GREAT!! You made things VERY clear and easy to understand!! (I wish I could have put it that easy to understand!)

King_Kooba_Fantastique -- I know you've already said it didn't come out the way you intended it to, but I think you unknowingly hit on something that some of the others don't realize. At the start of your post you said "Some of you talk like you think your doctors or scientists, cute." -- Many of us who have ADD/ADHD try to stay as up to date and knowledgeable of our problem and what is going on in the research arena as possible. We would like to find anything or anyway we can, to lessen our usage of chemicals and lead as normal a life as we can. In this respect, we are no different than those who have Lupus, MD, CP, or any of the other ailments that a cure has not been found for.

I don't ask for any special treatment and I don't expect any! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif But, I do know that when I tell a prospective employer that I'm on a prescribed medication that will prevent me from passing a drug test, they become very negative, very quick!! Usually, they reconsider when I explain to them that a sample from me gets additional scrutiny (verification of medication, treatment record, dosage, and when last taken) to insure that I am not abusing the medication. I don't think I've ever been discriminated against based on my ADD, but some people may in the same situation. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif

Finally, I have never met an ADD/ADHD person who uses it as a crutch!! I'm sure there are some out there somewhere, but eveyone I know, either tries to keep it hidden or quiet!! Many of us here think of the SysOpt Forums as one big family, so we're more willing to talk openly about it. As you may have noticed, some are more vocal about than others, http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif and some will read the initial bashing and ignorance and not post, http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif but you'd better believe they are still following the thread!!

Harder

Dputiger

03-13-2001, 12:05 AM

I'm weighing in on this one again. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

I hate taking Adderral. That might sound odd, given that its changed my life so much for the better. It honestly has. But there are side effects.

My sleep patterns are lousy (witness the fact that its 3 AM my time and I must be up at 7).

It's expensive.

It's got a mild withdrawal side effect when you quit.

It causes (or can cause) decreased appetite, decreased libido, and it'll speed up your heart.

So why do I like the drug? Because it really has changed my life and helped me. But its not perfect and it sure isn't a crutch.

I got where I am today through busting my **** in school and in life. Adderral has made things a little easier, but it sure hasn't made life an easy street. I very much hope one day to quit the drug by finding another way to compensate for my ADD, but until I do, I'll keep taking the pills.

That doesn't make me weak--in fact, I believe it takes strength to face up to the fact that I'm not perfect, accept it, deal with it, and move on.

CMonster

03-13-2001, 02:43 AM

dafremen --

Your post about the comparrison of the paraplegic in the wheel chair was GREAT!! You made things VERY clear and easy
to understand!!

I'm not trying to pick a fight here but this is not a good comparrison. You are setting up a straw man and knocking it down. Apples and oranges are both fruit -but they are different.

You can go about patting yourselves on the back but it's a little like the idea that if you keep saying something it becomes true. Of course you can reverse that whole concept on me if you like.

Some have labled me bipolar - but everyone else is as far as I'm concerned, some just balance better than I do. I live for my manic moments - and I am not afraid to die. We will all loose our minds someday -such is the result of life.

"The warrior's art is to balance the wonder of being alive with the terror of being alive." -from one of Carlos Casteneda's works, quoting Don Juan.

If it were not for my termoil I would not have had half the experiences that I had in life and I would not want to change a thing - pleasure and pain.

CMonster

03-13-2001, 03:05 AM

...and speaking of weird behavior/

Noverber 1977, SAXON'S JOURNAL - ENTRY 7. THE HELL BOUND TRAIN

(more excerpts of the real-life adventures of CMonster AKA "George" as told by his traveling buddy)

"By the time we finally were able to return to the State Park, we were certainly ready to settle down and relax for a while. That was our intention several days earlier before all that engine trouble, but now we were glad to be back. That evening, while taking a little walk, we came upon two obese women who were collecting aluminum cans from the trashcans in the park. We struck up a conversation with them.

They were smoking "roll-your-own" cigarettes and had yellow teeth. They were slightly tattered in appearance, wearing bulgy old sweatshirts, slacks, and tennis shoes.

The younger one, whose name was "Iadorya," (I-adore-you) spoke with quite a stutter. She looked like she was about 25, and had a chubby, round pale face with black, stringy hair that hung straight down. The older woman, named "Shirley," looked about 50, and was quite fat; in-between puffs on her cigarette she would go into terrible hacking coughing spasms that left her breathless. They were mother and daughter.

Somehow our conversation drifted from casual greeting to an opinionated discourse on the evil side of man and society. After we agreed with them about some of the evil aspects of humanity, the younger one suggested to her mother that they sing their song for us. We agreed that we would like to hear it, so they began singing for us, with breaks in-between for the mother's coughing spasms.

It was a long song with many verses, too many to remember, but I remember that the chorus of the song contained the lyrics, "And they glorified the dollar bill, and then they rode the hell bound train." George and I were very impressed with the song, we laughed and smiled the whole way through.

When they finished, we complimented them, and then for some strange reason George offered them some peyote. This upset me a little because I didn't want to tell a lot of people that we had it. But it seemed that George wanted to give some to everyone we met. They declined the offer but did invite us to come by their camp sometime and see the Afghans that they had crocheted.

That night George ate a fair amount of peyote. I cooked dinner as he came on to the buttons. Then he took a hit of weed and retreated to the side of the bungalow, where he stood leaning against the wall and gazing toward the hills. I finished a dinner of vegetable stew and rice and then offered George a plate, but he just stared right through me without saying a word. Eventually I went to sleep. In the morning, George told me that everything around him had disappeared, and he had been left, just standing in the middle of nothingness.

After breakfast we went to visit the two ladies. We walked over to their camp. A beat-up old station wagon, completely filled with worldly possessions and trash, was parked near a tent that was pitched adjacent to their bungalow. On the picnic table was a five-pound bag of sugar and a huge box of different pastries.

"Hello," we called out.
Immediately a ferocious little ill-natured dog began barking. Mother and daughter emerged from the tent with their dog leading the way.

"We have the d-d-dog because some people are m-m-mean." Iadorya said with quite a stutter, a little shouting to be heard above the dog's droning bark.

While Shirley quieted the dog, Iadorya brought out some of the Afghans that they had been working on and showed them to us. They were beautiful but both the Afghans and the women's clothes were so completely covered in dog hair it was hard to tell just where one began and the other stopped.

They got their tobacco can and sat down to talk with us. The previous night we had also been talking about getting food from trashcans, so we mentioned that we often found good produce in the dumpsters behind the supermarkets. Then as if in disdain of vegetables and fruit, they excitedly told us the story of how they once found cakes, pies, cookies, and other bakery stuff.
"We like the sweet stuff." Said Shirley through a yellow-toothed grin.
George and I had already guessed that by their appearance and the food left out on the table.

It turned out that Shirley and Iadorya were very religious and had their own private interpretation of the Bible (something we found common among religious folk). They said that "Father" was "coming down from heaven to deliver them from the mean people." This whole scene was beginning to seem a little psychotic to me and made me feel ill so I excused myself, but George stayed talking to them a bit longer."

dafremen

03-13-2001, 03:52 AM

C,

Sounds to me like you had no point at all in saying that other than to say it. The comparison was very valid. I'm there, I know.

You're bi-polar? Enjoying it? You don't know how happy I am that you have come to terms with your condition.

Your story was cool. Your point however...where exactly was it again?

8| Daffy

P.S. Pleasure and pain...remember the poem I posted that ended:

"Did you ever realize that now is what you have, good or bad, and that the pain and suffering of human existence is what makes the small pleasure great and the minor comforts heavenly?

Perfect paradise is all around you and you don't have to wait for it because it's already waiting for you."

You're preaching to the choir about pleasure and pain. Still missing the point to your post. Clarify please.

[This message has been edited by dafremen (edited 03-13-2001).]

CMonster

03-13-2001, 08:58 AM

Your story was cool. Your point however...where exactly was it again?I'm glad you thought it was a cool story, my buddy has a way with words. You're right, however, there is no point really relavent to this thread. It was a ploy, a tactic called changing the subject -I was kind of just messing with your head, you know, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance..." -but if it contains any message at all it is the certainty that everyone of us is suffering from some form of mental illness or else "normal" is a wide window of extremes.

Wheelchair scenario: usually a directly identifiable physiological cause

ADD/ADHD scenario: usually identified by symptomatic diagnosis

I have no doubt that a small amount of *speed* improves the concentration and mental acuity of anyone who takes it. LSD had (past tense) also shown great potential in treating catatonic patients -too bad testing ceased on the latter.

I would love a little Ritalin, but I'm afraid I would eat it like candy!

I'm just strongly against this current political trend toward labeling hyperactive kids ADD/ADHD and turning to medication. Why not first get them off all the sugar, artifical flavors/colors, coccoa, caffeine, and hormone laced meat? Why not consider that their school might be hideously boring? Why not consider that they have excess energy and need more time to play and excercise. Why not consider that they have some deep emotional scars and ongoing emotional abuse or neglect in the home?

You see, slapping a label on someone makes some think "okay he's 'label=group' and medicated with 'x-y-z meds' case closed.'

Each case in individual, each person is unique.

Like a slice of life from "The Pretender" series - just call me Jarod:

1984 -CMonster is a civilian volunteer lab tech doing CBC, UA, and microbiology at 18th army hospital -Seoul Korea <IMG SRC="http://www.dslextreme.com/users/cmonster3/labtech.jpg" border=0> -yes that's blood -no gloves? Feb. 1984 what's AIDS anyway?

[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 03-13-2001).]