English 1A ~ "you're" and "your"

[Roy]

This is one of a continuing series.

Some members don't care about the importance of correctness when trying to communicate. Sadly, we often are judged by these things. In school you are likely to be promoted even if you haven't learned enough. In life you may watch as others get promotions while you sit and wonder why you don't.

"Give it your best shot."

"You're the best!"

{Thread reference and incorrectly inferred personalization deleted.}

[This message has been edited by Roy (edited 02-15-2001).]

[Romulus2]

"You're the best!"

Why, thank you! http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/redface.gif

[randy48]

Roy, you'sa doin a my-T fine job of fixin us'es wit'r communicable prafishences (j/k) http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

You are...you're doing good Roy! One day I'll stop messin' wit'ya http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

[M_Six]

You're tilting at windmills, Roy, just tilting at windmills.

Caught you, Rom2! Welcome to our side of the big pond.

[Barney]

Rom, I think he was talking to me. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

Roy, I get your point, but I think your ( http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif ) just a whiner.

I noticed in my "Tax Cut Idea" thread that some have these two words confused.
I checked and it and it was only once and I'm sure it was just a weird typo.

You are scaring new members away with 'this question has been asked 150 times before' and 'say what your question is about in the topic title next time, PLEASE". You've been around here for what, 2 years? You know how things go on forums. Give us a break. You could use a break yourself too. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

I don't care about the correctness in spelling/grammar. In formal letters perhaps, but everyone understands what I'm saying, not?

I have more to say about this, but I'll take that break first. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

Ronald

[OuTpaTienT]

However, it's not always due to incorrect usage of the language.

I know that the your/you're thing for me is often a typo. My fingers are often on autotype mode and they choose the wrong one sometimes. In fact, honestly, there is NEVER going to be a situation where I would, given the choice, choose the wrong one to use. Come 'on. They aren't even forms of the same word, they are two completely different words (actually they're three words).

You're is short for 'you are' but can't always replace 'you are'.
ex.
You are a rat. & You're a rat. - works
but
I like you as you are. & I like you as you're. - doesn't work

And your is possessive, showing ownership.

Take your stuff home.
Control your emotions.

-----------

When will we learn about there, their, they're?
...or where, we're, were
...or sign, sine, sighing
...or two, to, too, tutu
...or four, fore, for
...or need, knead, kneed
...or lie, lye, lay
...or you, ewe, dear, deer, bear, bare, stair, stare, see, sea, son, sun, won, one, in, inn, bin, been.

dis, dat, or di-other.

[This message has been edited by OuTpaTienT (edited 02-13-2001).]

[Fingers]

I'm sorry,

Of 28 instances of the words "your" and "you're" in the "Tax Cut Idea" thread, two were used improperly...I was responsible for one of them. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/frown.gif (I did get it right twice also) http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

[justy]

Being only a pup at sysopt, barely house trained, I've only seen one or two of the "English 1A" classes.

In my own opinion, Roy, much as I admire your efforts, I do believe your fighting a losing battle. Personally, I have posted some remarkable threads, and after reading, thought " what the F--- was I saying". I did not edit them, because that was the emotion, or capability at the time.

I think it has to be understood, that many of the people posting here are not in full knowledge of the english language. Also some, as myself can get carried away with the emotion of the time.

I appreciate the fundamentals of correct grammar. It does make easier reading. It will lead to a quicker resolution of their problem. But in reality you can decipher a persons point from the thread. If not I'd post a question as to the meaning of their point.

No offence intended, and all respect given.

All the best, Justy.

[justy]

A joke that went bad??????????????

[This message has been edited by justy (edited 02-13-2001).]

[dafremen]

I think that Roy has a good point. I mean if you want to be a slob in private, that's your business, but in public we need to be a little more ANAL about things.

It's the price we must pay for a "civilized society".

8) Daffy

[commodsquad]

I don't know...
Being "anal" about anything always sounds like a " crappy " idea to me... http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/biggrin.gif

[skai]

I hereby apologize for any offensive and misleading spelling.But having been beaten to the punch when posting I type as quick as possible.Does it really really really matter?skai

[Warthog]

FINGERS!!

You shall be banished!

You're pet goldfish will be hanged and you're parakeet will be fed to the lions!

Your an insult to the Sysopt populus!

humph!
http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif
Warthog

[krusty the klown]

So when do we graduate to 1B?

there is another board i frequent one member absolutely never
uses any punctuation whatsoever it really makes
trying to decipher their post diffucult you just haven't a clue what their ( http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif) saying especially if they have a complex
problem that needs specific explanation im sure if they just used some basic full stops asn stuff we would be able to help them out but its just not the case when you read their post it can be interpreted in many different
ways and this means you could offer some total cock and bull advice on the problem you thought they had when in fact they have a different problem so you go away scratching your head in total confusion and they probably cant read what youve written cos theres all sorts of big letters and dots everywhere

*Takes deep breath*

Fortunately, there's nobody quite that bad here! http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[jad1097]

My grammer sucks and my spilling is worse.

[sharder8]

I hate to tell everyone, but Roy is trying to make ONE very important point! Proper grammar is one of the key things that the business world is looking at and does watch. I have seen executives told they need to go back to school to improve their grammar. I've also seen people told that until they improve their grammar, they can not and will not be promoted. (How's that for tact?)

I do try to use proper grammar at all times and in all places, however I am NOT perfect! I have and continue to improve my grammar to help in my future job growth and will continue to work on grammar for that reason!

BTW, I do use incorrect grammar at times for a reason, usually to add spice, humor, or to make a point.

Harder

[dafremen]

You also have made a good point Harder!

I mean with important company business to be done we often forget the things that are REALLY important and we let our grammar slip.

Thank gawd we have those executives and HR types to get us back on track and in the appropriately (to repeat a phrase) ANAL frame of mind. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

8) Daffy


[This message has been edited by dafremen (edited 02-14-2001).]

[OuTpaTienT]

I do agree completely with this idea of using correct grammar, punctuation, and structure of our messages.

Not because I'm anal and expect everyone to be perfect. That's just ludicrous. But because when we use all the available tools of writing, it can greatly help convey your message. It can, at least partially, make up for the loss of "body language" and tonal fluctuation that we routinely do when we speak face to face with others.

I've heard it said more than once that when people get together, as much as 90% of the communication that happens between them is body language. And that aspect of communication is essentially non-existent here.

We can, however, affect our perceived tone with various manipulations of the text. From speaking, rather, softly, and . . . slow-ly, to normal talking, **to MOST HIGHLY IRRITATED!!!! However, you may notice, there is a trade-off between "correct" grammar and effectively expressing one's tone. Personally, I prefer to know one's intended tone of speech as opposed to whether he/she paid attention in English class.

Having said that, I still feel proper grammar and punctuation is the clearest way to express your thoughts when you're limited to expressing them in text. But I think it's quite alright to stray from proper writing rules when you feel it necessary to include some emotion with your thoughts.

[welsh wizard]

next we will be deciding which is correct of the following, COLOR or COLOUR, and U know it don't really matter, as long as the reader knows what is meant, it is not as though this is a legal site with some lawyer trying to make a buck, this is a help site and gathering place for friends with a common interest.
After all this section is called SysOpt.community

WW

[OuTpaTienT]

And what would friends do for other friends in the same situation?

Would they allow their buddy to continue writing like a neanderthal? Or would they every-so-often say "Hey Grog, if you put one of these dots at the end of your sentences and make the first letter of each sentence bigger then your notes would be much easier to understand, which means you'd probably get even more assistance when you requested it. And it would make you look more intelligent. Plus you'd appear to actually give a **** about the readers that will see your message."

I really don't understand why there would be a problem with that WW.

-----

i guess youd prefer to just type message as the thoughts role out dont be concerned with any form or format cause peeps know what u sayin unless their just 1 of those anal dip sticks that think all everybody has 2 b perfect all the time that s all wacked n stuf this is by far the easiest sloth typing is the wave of the futur dont u no it

-----

Sorry, but unless you're writing personal notes to yourself, I just think it's F'ing rude.

[skai]

Gee Out ,you think you might take your own advise,Re f,ing rude.skai

[dafremen]

I actually think Outpatient made a very good point, although I'm at a loss as to his position. I've been online like many of you, since the early 80's, and one thing you learned quickly was that in order to communicate MOST effectively online, you needed to communicate your tone and emotion effectively. This often involves straying from the NORMS of English grammar, but is truly the BEST way to communicate your intent effectively.

An even more valid point is this:

If your intent was communicated effectively enough to be understood, then perhaps its grammatical accuracy is irrelevant. Some people choose to intentionally misspell in order to give a personality to an online persona that they perhaps feel is more human or less threatening to the average grammatically challenged joe.

There is a time and a place for good grammar. I'm not sure if the world of online personalities is ALWAYS that place. This depends of course on the individual. Proper syntax seems to fit Roy's personality very well, and that's perhaps, the online persona he intends to portray. I personally like it.

8) Daffy

P.S. Organise or Organize?

[OuTpaTienT]

skai, examples?

[sharder8]

One area that has only been touched on lightly and highlighted a bit by WW is spelling as found in different English speaking countries. As I mentioned in a former Forum post, I grew up next to the Canadian border, both the American and Canadian spellings were allowed (color and colour).

We must be tolerant of postings by people whose first or primary language is NOT English. When it comes to spelling, we must be tolerant of the different English spellings based on the spelling of their country.

I've known some people that use forums to learn English and/or to perfect their English. I remember reading some flames directed at a person based on their spelling and grammar, only to learn they were not from an English speaking county and English was not their primary language. Many of us do not realize that English is considered one of the hardest second languages to learn. Just look at the spelling and grammar rules we were taught in school, the number of exceptions to the rule, the idiosyncrasies of our grammar, the multiple spellings and meanings of the same sounding word. Then understand that the people trying to learn English are already speaking a language that may have solid rules of spelling, grammar, and pronunciation. And don't forget to add in that they may not have anyone to practice with. (I know my knowledge of German (Plattdeutsch specifically, but High German as well) and Japanese are almost non-existent now from lack of use.

Why is it some of us can flame a person from a non-English speaking country for their poor spelling and grammar, yet we insist that our own poor spelling and grammar is acceptable? Why is it acceptable for us to provide poor examples of our spelling and grammar for them to learn from and practice?

These a just a couple of the thoughts that came to mind this morning. I do not intend to offend anyone, but I feel we should set the example when trying to help someone, whether it be technical, psychological, spelling, or grammar. Tolerance must be meted out when and where required.

Harder

[Roy]

It's time I said something.

This is not about tone or emotion. It is not about American versus English spelling of words. And it is not about being anal (assumably in its narrower psychobabble definition ~ meticulous).

It is about using the wrong word! Our language is rife with homophones ~ words that sound alike. In print, how they sound doesn't matter, what they mean is the issue.

Someone who is so lazy and selfish as to say "you know what I meant" deserves no quarter. If that is what you meant, why didn't you say it?

Those who truly do not know the correct spelling of their intended word might appreciate the polite clarification I try to offer. As some have agreed, when it does matter, it really matters!

[This message has been edited by Roy (edited 02-15-2001).]

[dafremen]

A post to lend finality
Perhaps, to end this malady
For you take talk of ANALity
As serious; a fallacy
I thought my jest's absurdity
Indicated it's banality http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

8) Daffy

P.S. You think your and you're are bad...let me AKS you this question: Have you ever heard someone say: NUCULAR Bomb, or the month of FEB-YOO-ARY?

Our language is rife with hypocrisy and double standards. To the literate and illiterate alike: Can't we all just...get along?

P.P.S. Por eso ami me gusto mas Espanol. En Espanol, todas las letras hacen el mismo sonido en cualqier palabra. Si es cierto que ay ciertas excepciones pero siempre las reglas estan muy claros y no cambian palabra por palabra. Ingles esta bien jodido.



[This message has been edited by dafremen (edited 02-15-2001).]

[Fingers]

Doh! There goes my credibility. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/redface.gif It's fixed now. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

Doh - Doe - Dough

ps, I missed a parentheses too...or should it be parenthesis? http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif


[This message has been edited by Fingers (edited 02-15-2001).]

[MAGIC 8-BALL and THE ELF]

Isn't Mr. Roy just leading a horse to water? - Elf

So it appears, and the horse is kicking. - 8-Ball

Hmm? (http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/Forum5/HTML/005563.html)

[This message has been edited by MAGIC 8-BALL and THE ELF (edited 02-15-2001).]

[Warthog]

ok.......ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I think this whole thing is ridiculous. There. I said it.

I mean, it's not that bad, is it?!

I completely understand what you guys are saying, but this is a internet message board, not a formal letter.
http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/frown.gif
Warthog

[jad1097]

P.P.S. Por eso ami me gusto mas Espanol. En Espanol, todas las letras hacen el mismo sonido en cualqier palabra. Si es cierto que ay ciertas excepciones pero siempre las reglas estan muy claros y no cambian palabra por palabra. Ingles esta bien jodido.


My spanish is not that good but you are correct in saying it is a better language.

[OuTpaTienT]

I've found myself on your side of many issues Roy, but it seems this is not one of them.

I think both Barney and Fingers have the most reasonable views on this. Personally I expanded it into the conveying of emotions because, honestly, the whole your/you're thing is a non-issue.

As Barney and I stated it is a typo, NOT a misuse of the word, a typo. Do you comprehend that? Granted it's not the usual typo that consists of a misstruck key, it is still a similar sort of error. Especially if typing fairly fast trying to keep pace with your thoughts, misstruck keys can easily become misstruck words.

I routinely check my post before submitting them, but I'm not perfect. Also, if I notice a typo (of any type) after I submitted a post then I will edit the message and correct the error. Now if that's not good enough for you Roy, then I'm sorry but I just don't meet your standards and you're going to have to live with that. I know I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

-----
~edit~ Case & point - I just corrected a typo that is precisely on topic. I had typed the word "and" where I should have typed the word "can".

Those of you that don't use correct form when typing probably don't experience this phenomena. IOW, if you "hunt 'n peck" or maybe even you type correctly with proper hand placement but you look at the keys, then certainly you'll be less susceptible to this quirk. It's seems to manifest mostly with the small, common words (the, you, and, for, are, any, etc.). Because, as any typist will tell you, these words are not typed "letter-by-letter". Instead they are typed as single units, essentially equivalent to one keystroke.

[This message has been edited by OuTpaTienT (edited 02-15-2001).]

[dafremen]

Well I personally thought that the thread only got INTERESTING after you brought emotions and inflection into the discussion. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

8) Daffy

[Barney]

Why use "you're" at all if everything has to be so perfect and formal. Why don't you do a grammar check with SpellChecker. This is what spellchecker will say:
Avoid contractions in formal writing.

And as Outpatient already said, it goes automatically. You have the right 'sound' in your head, but just sometimes type it wrong. The same with there/they're/their and where/were/we're (although they sound a little different). Is there really anyone here who doesn't know the difference between "you are" and "your"? I don't think so. It's just a typo, one that SpellChecker (unfortunally) doesn't see. And what's so bad about a typo?

I am not saying good spelling/grammar is totally unimportant. But as long as everyone understands it, it doesn't really matter. When I registered here over a year ago, no-one could really understand me. I'm pretty sure of that. My grammar was sooo bad and so was my spelling. 3 Hours a week at school just isn't enough to learn to talk/type proper English. But I am just a 1 in a 100 occasion.

Ronald

[Fingers]

This is not about tone or emotion. It is not about American versus English spelling of words. And it is not about being anal (assumably in its narrower psychobabble definition ~ meticulous).

It is about using the wrong word! Our language is rife with homophones ~ words that sound alike. In print, how they sound doesn't matter, what they mean is the issue.

Now I'm starting to get pissed-off. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/frown.gif
Roy, you made specific reference to your "Tax Cut Idea" thread so I guess that's what prompted this thread. Unless I missed something, there were only two instances of this particular error in that thread, and I'm quite certain that neither BBA nor myself has a problem understanding the proper usage of "your" and "you're". THEY WERE SIMPLY MISTAKES.
If my improper substitution of the word "your" for "you're" caused you to misunderstand the intent of my message, then I apologize, but I'll bet you were the only one that was confused by this mistake.

While I may share your desire for members to post informative and descriptive thread titles (particularly when requesting technical help), I'm starting to think you would be better served to start your own Forum where you can promptly delete all posts that contain grammatical or punctuation errors.

There is a difference between constructively pointing out mistakes to the uninformed, and being anal (of, relating to, or situated near the anus) (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary) about the need for grammatical perfection in an otherwise casual forum.


[This message has been edited by Fingers (edited 02-15-2001).]

[dafremen]

Oops! That's GRAMMATICAL or punctuation errors. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

J/K

8) Daffy


[This message has been edited by dafremen (edited 02-15-2001).]

[skai]

Sorry Out if I went over the top, but I thought you were a bit harsh on WW. On reading the post again you I guess you weren’t referring to WW in your "rude " asertion.skai .
PS just shows that being in a rush most of the time you can make mistakes in both spelling and interpretation!

[Roy]

Some final words for this thread. I'll add no more.

My purpose is stated clearly, I lifted it from the previous " 'then' and 'than' " thread, and I'll likely use it again. Those who do not know the difference might be assisted by my clarifying examples. (I continue to see "then" and "than" confused.)

I am sorry I made reference to a thread containing the misuse.

I maintain that "you knew what I meant" is selfish and lazy. Editing a posts's errors is easy.

I'm an ok typist, and quite sure that the presence of the apostrophe differentiates this mistake from a typographical error. Nonetheless, I fully accept the explanation that it was a mistake. I really address only those who do not know that.

Feel free to use modern Psychology's ad hominum fallacy of excusing your mistakes by calling me a name ... "anal" in this case. I'm a big boy and I can take it.

Lastly, go ahead and post whatever makes you feel better about yourself, including whatever you wish to say to diminish me. Just remember~ RULE 2. The World won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself. ~ Charles J. Sykes ... and if I can do anything to help out, I shall.

P.S. Thanks to those who understand and support my efforts.