This is not misleading...

[tantone]

When the picture is small, sure it looks a little odd. But seeing it up close; come on...

<IMG SRC="http://a388.g.akamai.net/f/388/21/15m/www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/09/election.president/large.ballot.ap.jpg" border=0>

[MrMikeL]

In Minnesota, we used to have that old punch card system. You'd poke your holes and put the ballot in a box for tabulating some time later. You would never know if your ballot was disqualified or not.

We now have a new system here in Minnesota where your ballot is automatically validated when you slip it into the ballot box. If you accidentally voted for more than one party, it would kick it out and then you can get a new ballot. In this way you KNOW whether your ballot is valid or not when you leave the polling place.

I'm sure Florida will have this new system in place for 2002!!

[clinny]

No, doesn't look misleading to me. Here (UK) though we still have the place your cross in the box ballot papers - very high tech http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

[Gomer]

Just for your info MrMike.....
In the 1996 election, in which voter turnout was much lower mind you, there were 15,000 soiled votes . People throwing around this 19,000 soiled votes don't seem to know of this. All in all it has less to do with the "complexity??" of the ballot, and more to do with the old folks that are voting.

[barry glisson]

Florida law states all ballotts will be marked on the right side and will be listed on the ballott in descending order by the number of votes the party recieved last election. Buchannon is second and you must vote on the left for him, both violations of state law. Just so I know just exactly how old is too old to vote. Would I be correct to call members of this board stupid if they can't completely dissassemble and reassemble a 13 speed transmission, because I can, Without a manual and it will work. You must under stand ignorance can be cured stupidity can't. barry

[Fingers]

Barry, did you follow the "letter of the law" and put an "X" in the checkbox on your ballot? If you didn't, then I hope your vote was thrown out also. Nevermind that the ballot may be of the "punchcard" design, the law states only ballots with "X's" in the checkboxes should have been counted... Right.

Use a little common sense barry, common sense.

If it's not fraud, or a deliberate intention to mislead voters (same thing?), the results should stand.

[reddog4629]

"I saw it with my own eyes. Hundreds of people left the ballot box and became hysterical in the parking lots when they realized they had probably voted for Pat Buchanan,"
If it takes 'em THAT long to realize they screwed up-THAT'S stupidity-not ingnorance.
http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/09/election.president/index2.html

[Mr.Goodbytes]

The results should stand, but they were thrown out. At least that's what the newspapers in my area are reporting. The simple fact of the matter is you if you think you messed up your ballot, then you ask the polling official for another one. You don't go whining and crying to your congressman when you find out Gore lost and say you were confused. Heck, the congressman they cried to was Bob Wexler, Democrat. He sits on the House Judiciary Committee and was very anti-impeachment. It all sounds quite a bit fishy to me.

My guess is they're trying to cheat Bush out of his victory. I've also heard them start to mention Jeb in this matter too. I'm sure there are already unsupported claims that this was an attempt by Jeb to help his older brother. It's complete garbage, and anyone with some amount of intelligence should concede that fact.

Oh, and no surprise that the Reverend Jesse Jackson is there demanding a revote. That man, my apologies to men everywhere, is a disgrace. He is in this more for his own clout than anything else. All he wants to do is talk and get his way. IMO, and that of others, he is more an enemy to the African-American population than he is a friend. Sooner or later they will discover that.

I'll just add this too: The Palm Beach Supervisor of Elections, Theresa LePore, is a Democrat and she is irritated about this reaction. Said LePore to the Sun-Sentinel, "I was trying to make the print bigger so elderly people in Palm Beach County can read it." She also said her professionalism and job had been insulted by Wexler. She said, if the ballot was so confusing, somebody should have pointed it out to her earlier. "We sent out sample ballots to all registered voters and no one said a word."


[This message has been edited by Mr.Goodbytes (edited 11-09-2000).]

[Gomer]

I really hope you are not calling me ignorant Barry.... It is the said truth that as you get older your mind begins to fail. I bet a few of those ballots look like swiss cheese. Anyways, there were 15,000 soiled votes in the past election in 96 so it isn't like this years are something special.
Furthermore, this style ballot has been used in other elections, it was published as per law before the election and no issues were raised. It was also approved by a commitee headed by a dem.
Your are right about one thing, ignorance can be cured, stupidity can't. It is too sad there is no cure for people who can not figure out how to punch a hole in the proper place. There are arrows even, jeez.

[narayan]

Mike, they cast out ballots where 2 candidates are selected for the same office here in Nebraska, also. I think just about every county in America casts out these invalid ballots. Not only that, do we want stupid people who cant read the ballot to choose the leader of the free world? Not me.

[Joel Kleppinger]

Newly redesigned 2004 ballot http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif (created by a friend at Evangel University)

<A HREF="http://www.ganns.com" TARGET=_blank><IMG SRC="http://www.evangel.edu/People/greere/Humor/Proposed_2004_Election_Ballot.gif" border=0></A>

[This message has been edited by Joel Kleppinger (edited 11-09-2000).]

[Mr.Goodbytes]

Beautiful, just beautiful, Joel!! http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif My wager is that there will be no revote, so don't worry if any of you out there are worried. We have legal precedent to back it up. Read this: http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel110900.shtml

[barry glisson]

Mr. godbytes You are wrong there has been a reelection and it was in Dade county. The Atorney is the same one representing the people in the civil suit. The mayor of Miami was thrown out and the new winner sworn in. I am not calling anyone ignorant but I am getting damned tired of listening to a bunch of junior hogh school people call anyone older than themselves stupid. You will find it to be an amazing thing to see how much smarter your elders are the older you get. That is if you get smart enough to live that long. barry

[socalgal]

rof, Joel! http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Now if that doesn't make it crystal clear, I don't know WHAT will! http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

[seti]

LOL! http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[narayan]

Good one!!!

[Mr.Goodbytes]

Barry, help me out here. What is the reason for this mayoral reelection in Dade? I haven't read about it, that's why I ask. Please provide a link that either cites specific documentation or a link to the documents themselves. Oh, and for the record, I don't recall calling anyone stupid in this discussion, so I hope you aren't directing that comment towards me.

This puts the whole stupidity issue into perspective:
If people aren't able to study that ballot or ask for help and vote the right way, how can you say they have the ability to realize that they goofed up?


[This message has been edited by Mr.Goodbytes (edited 11-09-2000).]

[Fingers]

No, they won't be happy with that one either!!!

They will undoubtedly want to be listed at the top of the ballot so as not to miss out on any voters that might also suffer from Attention Deficit Disorder, and get bored before they actually find the Democratic box.

Oh, I just remembered, this is the "highly Democratic" county of Palm Beach, no need to include anyone else but the Democrats on this ballot, certainly no one would deliberately vote for a Republican or former Republican candidate anyway. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

[pickel]

Why don't they have voting MACHINES like we do here in Mississppi????? With my bi-focals, I'm sure it would be more than possible to punch the wrong hole and with tabulation machine should have kicked them out as improper ballots and given the citizen the option to try again. It all sounds fishy to me , esspecially since it's happened in previous elections. Kinda like they're deliberately trying to confuse the voters.
JMO.

[Gomer]

Barry, I am not a junior hogh student. Again, it is the sad truth that as the majority of people get older, their mental functionality decreases. It is a fact of life. How you can try to argue this is beyond me. Next thing you will try to tell me is that the elderly don't become more frail or weaker. Or you will try to say their hearing and sight don't fail. It is a fact of life. Deal with it.

My deceased grandfather's mind was long gone before he passed away. My living grandfather often mixes people's names up. He will call me my brothers name sometimes. He has been doing this for a few years but these days he doesn't catch himself as quick. Sometimes he doesn't catch it at all.

I never said old people are stupid. However, they are more inclined to make mistakes in situations like occured in Florida.

[This message has been edited by Gomer (edited 11-09-2000).]

[Fingers]

That's right pickel, a "highly democratic" county deliberately fixed the ballot so that only "highly democratic" voters would be confused?

If it smells fishy, it's not because of some conspiracy, it's because IT'S NEAR THE OCEAN!

barry, some get smarter with age, and some turn into Palm Beach residents. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif And I'd still like to know... did you put an "X" in the checkbox to the right of your candidates name, as Florida law requires?

[tantone]

In my opinion, the campaigning is still going on. The American people are forming opinions about the candidates based on what's going on with the race.

With that in mind, if anyone in Florida is allowed to revote, there is no way to ensure that they will vote for who they meant to originally. IF ANYONE IS ALLOWED TO REVOTE, THE WHOLE COUNTRY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO REVOTE!

...and BTW, Jesse Jackson can kiss my white ***!

[MrMikeL]

narayan,

Here in Minnesota, our ballots are automatically validated before we leave the polling place. If our ballot is invalid, we know about it immediately and are given a fresh ballot to cast, the soiled one is destroyed. Our state did away with the butterfly punchcard system years ago. Most states have abandoned this old system.

Mike

[Fingers]

In addition to that tantone, with Nader falling well short of the 5% that the Green Party had hoped for, almost all of them would likely go to Gore. Buchanan voters would probably go to Bush, but the net gain would be more than 2100 for Gore.

[Fingers]

I'm just curious, would the Minnesota system do anything to notify you if you had inadvertently cast a vote other than the one you had intended? In other words, might a Democrat still walk out of the office having cast only one Presidential vote...for Buchanan?

[GenePG]

The whole thing is just wacky. Good info Mike. Maybe you should tip the media...I heard it here first. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

[jad1097]

What Barry said about the Mayor of Miami was true. If I find a link I will post it.

[tantone]

Did anyone see the interview with the elderly woman last night about the confusing ballot? I believe she was actually one of the people who started the first lawsuit.

She said she wanted to vote for Al Gore and Al Lieberman. I fell out of my chair. If she can't get his name right, how in the hell can she get the vote right? This same arguement works for many people all over the country for getting out of moving violations.

I still think this is just America becoming a whining country. People want legal verdicts to counterract their own stupidity. It's a sad state of affairs, and as patriotic as I am, I'm slowly losing my faith in our system in many ways.

Not to mention that the media is making all of this 10 times as big as it needs to be. Actually, I firmly believe that if it wasn't for them prematurely calling the states all night on Tuesday, none of this would be as huge of a deal as it is.

[jad1097]

I am not sure if there was a reelection though. http://www.miafla.com/082699d.html
The courts subsequently overturned the election and removed then-Mayor Xavier Suarez, ruling he benefited from voter fraud. An appellate court declared Joe Carollo the winner.

[etech]

MrMikeL, do you see the (Vote for Group) on the left hand side of the ballot. It does not say groupS.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0101/SEC27.HTM&Title=-&gt;2000-&gt;Ch0101-&gt;Section%2027
(2) The captions on the ballots for voting machines shall be placed so as to indicate to the elector what push knob, key, lever, or other device is used or operated in order to cast his or her vote for or against a candidate, proposed constitutional amendment, or other question or proposition submitted to the electorate at any election.

under paper ballot rules
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0101/ch0101.htm
(4) If the elector marks more names than there are persons to be elected to an office, or if it is impossible to determine the elector's choice, his or her ballot shall not be counted for the office; but this shall not vitiate the ballot as to those names which are properly marked, and nothing in this code shall be construed to prevent any elector, at any general election, from voting for any qualified candidate other than one whose name is printed on the ballot.

Seems pretty clear to me.


[This message has been edited by etech (edited 11-09-2000).]

[Fingers]

I agree tantone, I have stated many time the real need for people to take responsibility for there actions. These people actually believe that it's someone elses fault that they punched the ballot improperly.

How about a little PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!

If 19,000 people in Palm Beach punched out more than one hole in the Presidential Election portion of the ballot, I can tell you for sure, that there are at least 18,950 people in Palm Beach that aren't qualified to make an intellegent decision about which candidate best represents them.

Some lady in Palm Beach stated that her vote was stolen... WRONG, she threw it away...all by herself

[reddog4629]

Doesn't look misleading to me either. Don't these people THINK before poking that hole?
I guess it's not important to them to check their work-huh? Typical Jesse-when a blatent mistake is made-squeal like a pig under a gate and place the blame on the Republicans.

[MrMikeL]

You know what? I don't see anything on that ballot that says "Choose only one group". On that basis alone, I think the 19,000 spoiled ballots should be reconsidered.

[tantone]

If that's the case, I want to have more than one vote count and I want to put all of them on Bush.

In this case:
Voting Irregularities = Stupidity

[This message has been edited by tantone (edited 11-09-2000).]

[barry glisson]

I marked the ballott to the right there was nothing to the left in any county EXCEPT Palm Beach. Exactly what age do you think voting privilege should be terminated? If it wasn't for the OLD fogeys living on palm beach you wouldn't be here. when you have time check the history books from 1941 to 1945 then 1951 to 1955.these are the stupid old fools you want to take the vote away from. The more lucid republicans I talk to figure it will be useless to run a republican in this state for years due to the calous disregard the republicans have taken towards the elderly. barry

[Gomer]

I never made any implication that old fogeys (you called them that remember) should have their right to vote terminated. I am merely trying to beat the fact into your head that 19,000 votes thrown out is nothing special in that county. Votes there are routinely soiled (as are bed sheets I imagine). It was nothing special having to do with the ballot. What was wrong with the ballot in '96 where 15,000 votes were thrown out.

Barry, I don't want you to think I do not respect my elders. I can only hope to live as long as some of the older people I associate with. I can only hope to be as good of a person characterwise as most of them.

For the record, I don't have any feelings one way or the other which way the election goes. I am very naive when it comes to politics and before this year I couldn't recognize a republican from a democrat. I still don't know the difference between right and left wing, liberal and conservative etc. However I did vote. My views on what happened in Palm Beach have nothing to do with the way I voted. Loyalty clouds perception of reality for some people. Luckily for me, I have no loyalty =)

[BBA]

Hmmm...a bunch of confusion here.

How do you know the balot was not legal? Are you a LAWYER?

Rest assured...the people who designed and approved the current voting system ARE!.

I just looked at the laws, and found some interesting details:



101.015 Standards for voting systems.--
(1) The Department of State shall adopt rules which establish minimum standards for hardware and software for electronic and electromechanical voting systems. Such rules shall contain standards for:
(a) Functional requirements;
(b) Performance levels;
(c) Physical and design characteristics;
(d) Documentation requirements; and
(e) Evaluation criteria.


AND


(6) All electronic and electromechanical voting systems purchased on or after January 1, 1990, must meet the minimum standards established under subsection (1). All electronic and electromechanical voting systems in use on or after July 1, 1993, must meet the minimum standards established under subsection (1) or subsection (5).


AND



101.051 Electors seeking assistance in casting ballots; oath to be executed; forms to be furnished.--
(1) Any elector applying to vote in any election who requires assistance to vote by reason of blindness, disability, or inability to read or write may request the assistance of two election officials or some other person of the elector's own choice, other than the elector's employer, an agent of the employer, or an officer or agent of his or her union, to assist the elector in casting his or her vote. Any such elector, before retiring to the voting booth, may have one of such persons read over to him or her, without suggestion or interference, the titles of the offices to be filled and the candidates therefor and the issues on the ballot. After the elector requests the aid of the two election officials or the person of the elector's choice, they shall retire to the voting booth for the purpose of casting the elector's vote according to the elector's choice.
(2) It is unlawful for any person to be in the voting booth with any elector except as provided in subsection (1).
(3) Any elector applying to cast an absentee ballot in the office of the supervisor, in any election, who requires assistance to vote by reason of blindness, disability, or inability to read or write may request the assistance of some person of his or her own choice, other than the elector's employer, an agent of the employer, or an officer or agent of his or her union, in casting his or her absentee ballot.
(4) If an elector needs assistance in voting pursuant to the provisions of this section, the clerk or one of the inspectors shall require the elector requesting assistance in voting to take the following oath:



And I also noticed that the quotes Barry is using ONLY applied to "Voting by paper balot"

I'm sorry, but we used MACHINE balots in Florida...not paper! The media used was a PUNCH CARD...inserted into a manually operated punch card MACHINE! Therefore, the Paper Balot rules CAN NOT be applied at all...


Now, as to confusion in the voting mechanism...help is provided for by law, as shown.


BUT: It was a valiant attempt, Barry.



[This message has been edited by BBA (edited 11-10-2000).]

[jeana]

Some more stuff to consider:
Like tantone says, the magnification is important. How big (physically) was the ballot? In pictures that showed a human hand punching the dots, it looked like it was only six inches high.

Also, you might miss the right hand side if all the other pages of the ballot were a single column on the left, and if your right hand was resting on the right-hand page. Imagine taking a test where all the questions are on a single side, except on one page where it's double sided!

Following up MrMikeL's objection, some people thought they were supposed to poke a hole each for the presidential and vice-presidential candidates-- they were not trying to double vote!

I posted this in another thread:

Like many who protested Palm Beach County's ballot, Joanna Carbone, 35, of Boynton Beach, said she voted for Buchanan by mistake after standing in a line that snaked out the door.

"I was refused a second ballot at my precinct," she said, even though she hadn't dropped her ballot in the ballot box. "I left there and thought, 'You get one vote. Oh well.' "
http://www.gopbi.com/partners/pbpost/epaper/editions/today/news_13.html


But, of course, it's the nature of design flaws that they introduce confusion around the margins of information, precisely where people aren't paying close attention. It's easy to look at a ballot, once you've been prepped to be on the alert for potential problems, and say, after the fact, "This doesn't look too confusing." It's when you're not on guard -- when you're just repeating a process that you've done many times before (for instance, elderly Palm Beach voters casting ballots) -- that a design flaw can lead you astray. http://www.salon.com/tech/col/rose/2000/11/09/interface_design/index.html?CP=SAL&DN=110

Unfair? Sure, but life is tough all over. Do the Palm Beachers have a winning legal case here? No clue.

I think a revote in the county will be a mistake, because it unfairly allows a greater voter turnout the second time around. However, I do support the hand-recount.

Why?
First, the hand-count can at least detect "under-counts" where the styluses (styli?) might not have completely punched out the circles. The high number of nonvotes justify such a count.

Second, the goings on in Volusia county sound suspect to me. <A HREF="http://www.news-journalonline.com/2000/Nov/9/AREA1.htm" TARGET=_blank>
What kind of "computer glitch" would this be? A "faulty memory card"? </A>