free speech in america? dont get your hopes up

[falcompsx]

For those of you in foriegn contries, bare with me, and express any opinions, i'm open to anything...

lately i've been in a little bit of a bad mood...why? because of all those political *Deleted* that think they know what's best for us. As far as I'm concerned, free speech in america is GONE. For example...if I were to start a business and have a sign in the window saying "we hate gay people"(just an example). I would expect that gay people would feel quite hostile toward me as expected. Also i'm quite sure i would be forced to remove that sign by some goverment department. Well if everyone in that store honestly felt that way, the sign would be true right? Now, doesn't america have freedom of speech? Can't I say that? Why not? I'm not *acting* on my feelings(violence or otherwise). So I'm not doing anything unconstitutional. Although that is most likely illegal to say that, isn't a law like that unconstitutional? or am i missing something? With the way things are going these days, soon kids won't be running around saying the classic "boys are smarter then girls!" and visa versa from the girls point of view. Wouldn't that be sad in the country that founded free speech? I can't even go on the air nationally and say that, if I did there would be no end to what the press would say. Just imagine some guy saying that and sticking his tounge out at the end, not advertising any product whatsoever, on TV for a superbowl commercial. That would be funny as hell IMO. I know this will be censored, and since this is a international BB, i understand, some contries are different, i expect no different. Well what are your thoughts on this?

PS
I'm not racist, or anti-gay in anyway, it's just an example. OK, so i don't like gays, but i don't dislike the people, just their actions. After all, have you ever seen a gay frog?(don't even start with the whole some animals can change their sex thing)


*Please watch your language in the forums* -Mntsnow

[This message has been edited by Mntsnow (edited 07-27-2000).]

[krusty the klown]

Gay frogs eh? Nope, not seen them, but I've seen pictures of two male lions giving eachother a 'jolly good seeing to' and enjoying it. Same gender sex is well documented in animals (wild animals, not just a repressed pet dog that thinks happiness is a leg in trousers!!).
http://vagina.rotten.com/animals/deersome.html

(note: not a porn link, despite what it sounds like!!)

Hmmm... free speech... I guess it's about treading that fine line between being allowed to express your opinion and expressing opinions that blatantly offend others. I guess if one of the things that goes through your mind is "*Deleted* go home", then you should paint the slogan in foot-high letters all over your car, shout the message down a PA whilst driving through the Bronx! If free speech allows us to say "*deleted* go home", we should accept the consequences.


[This message has been edited by Mntsnow (edited 07-27-2000).]

[krusty the klown]

Sorry if the post was in any way interpreted as offensive to black people.
That was in no way my intention whatsoever and I do not support the view
that black people should leave America, or any other country in which they
are residing or indeed are citizens of that country. I was trying to cite
an example of how a person might hold a perticular view (that does not
reflect my own), which they may believe they have a right to hold that view
and that their view could be offensive to others. I was attempting to
illustrate the fine dividing line between free speech and causing offense
(in my example a racist person believing they have the right to freely
express their racist views and their views causing offence to the group of
people to which the racism was directed). I would have used a different
example if I thought the content of my post would cause offense.

My appologies.

[narayan]

You can say anything you want, as long as it doesn't:

A) Make someone mad
B) Offend someone
C) Put someone down
D) Sound racist
E) Sound homophobic
F) Sound Anti-woman
G) Say bad things about people on welfare
H) Say bad things about any group (except white males, of course)
I) Promote guns
J) Promoto freedom

ETC.....

Mainly, just don't say ANYTHING someone might not like, and you will be ok.

[jad1097]

Nothing like seeing a pic of a bisexual deer!

[yaroa]

One thing is freedom, another is, for lack of a better word, free for all.
When you start disparaging people of different ethnicity, color or sexual preference, you are not exercising freedom of speech, you are abusing freedom of speech.
No freedom of speech in America? You should try living under a Dictatorship, like I have, or talk with somebody from,say, Cuba.
Like my mom use to say: You don't know what you have until you lose it.
I am flying tomorrow to the Dominican Republic, for one week visit. There, if you call the President half of the things that we call our President here, your **** is going to jail. And bear in mind that presently that is one of the most democratic countries in Latin America.

[narayan]

Yaroa, what I believe is that a person should be able to say whatever he wants to, even if it is unpopular, and not be pounced on by the government or the media. John Rocker is a perfect example. He spoke his mind and got in trouble for it. Nobody can control what people think, so what good is it to control what the people say? I think that people should be more resilient than to be so easily offended.

It is better here than Cuba, Iraq, etc., but I think we are slowly losing our right to free speech to political correctness.

[chipbgt]

Last time I checked, a homosexual's(or a blacks, or old peoples) money spends just as well as anyone elses, so who would you want to put up a sign (any sign) like that? I know you are just using it as an example...at least you should use a plausible one j/k http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by chipbgt (edited 07-29-2000).]

[Dputiger]

Narayan,

First of all, you're entitled to think whatever you want about anyone--that's freedom of thought and has never been attacked.

However, the utter freedom of speech you point to as good has never been a goal of America. When the Constitution was framed, freedom of speech was considered identical with freedom of prior restraint. Freedom from prior restraint means that you have the right to say ANYTHING you want--but have NO protection from the consequences whatsoever. So, you have the freedom to call the President a jerk, but if calling the President a jerk is illegal, off to jail you go.

By the 1920s in this country things had gotten only slightly better. In fact, under the Espionage Acts of 1917, American citizens who expressed any kind of anti-war ideology were sent to jail. The Supreme Court upheld the Espionage Acts as Constitutional with the notable exceptions of Holmes and Brandeis.

Now, fast-forwarding to today, the court has upheld the right of citizen's to swear in public, wear clothing with obscene words in public, and express unpopular viewpoints. Groups like the KKK are, in fact, NOT illegal in this country--despite the bloody history of this group.

You may want MORE freedom of speech than you currently have, but don't be fooled--you have far more freedom to speak your mind than your grandparents did.

[blind to truth]

A) Make someone mad<when can a person not do that?
B) Offend someone <americans can do that and i do
C) Put someone down<we can also do that and i do
D) Sound racist <dont do that but if you want to you can
E) Sound homophobic<also dont do this but you can if you want
F) Sound Anti-woman<say it if you want,expect arguments.
G) Say bad things about people on welfare<<HAHAHA
H) Say bad things about any group (except white males, of course)< some groups are just stupid and shouldnt exsist like NAMBLA(sick group)
I) Promote guns<? guns are good and the people who protest them should be shot at.(not hit,of course)
J) Promoto freedom<what are wrong with people?Black people who wine about the white man and so on are also rascist too.If you dont like gay people u can tell people if you want.If your gay and dont like it,why try to make them take the sign down?(its there rights and they can say what they want to...)

[bdunn]

Be glad we have the freedom albeit limited of speech we have.

If you are interested in a history lesson rent an old ***** Allen film called the front. Watch the movie and take the time to read the closing credits.

You'll appreciate the what you got afterwards.

[falcompsx]

this is exactly the BS i'm talking about...

can't say this?
A) Make someone mad--bite me...did i make you mad?
B) Offend someone--i do it all the time, even without trying.
C) Put someone down--i do that too, if you deserve it.
D) Sound racist--everyone is racist to some extent.
E) Sound homophobic--homophobic? nah you're just heterophobic, starin' at my jeans watchin my genitals bulgin'. "Eminem" The only reason people turn homo is because they are too much of a loser to get with someone of the oposite sex(I admit i enjoy watching lesbian mud wrestling tho...)
F) Sound Anti-woman-come on now, does anyone other then women really like the wnba? Lakers could beat any team,even all star team on wnba easily. Proof that guys are better at basketball. If there was a girl as good at basketball as Kobe, i guarantee you she'd be in the real league...the NBA.
G) Say bad things about people on welfare-Welfare is for lazy @$$ people who dont want to work. You don't work, you don't eat, it's that simple folks.
H) Say bad things about any group (except white males, of course)-what about the KKK?
I) Promote guns-heck yeah, guns are just as allowed in america as freespeech, and is a whole other argument.
J) Promoto freedom-WHAT THE F*** is wrong with you people??? do you want me to promote slavery or what!!??!?

some people are just stupid, i'm sorry, but it's the truth. and people who dissagree, are usually in the group, because they are too stuborn to look at reality.

Freedom is not utopia, it definately has it's consequences(such as someone making fun of you). It may seem great being able to make fun of people, or express your feelings toward the government, but just remember that other people have the same right, so don't **** people off.

[This message has been edited by falcompsx (edited 07-28-2000).]

[This message has been edited by falcompsx (edited 07-28-2000).]

[Fingers]

Kudos to falcompsx, I applaud you for speaking freely.

Too bad that your undoubtably going to get flamed for your message though.

[narayan]

Not by me! http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[falcompsx]

Hey, i just say what's on my mind(which can be dangerous in todays society unfortunately) But don't take me wrong, I'm not racist or anti-women(just anti-feminist, anti-treehugger, anti-animals-are-more-valued-then-humans rights groups, etc...) Oh well too bad one outspoken person can't make a very big difference, since if i'm too outspoken i'd probably be locked up.

[jad1097]

A prime example of censorship. (http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/007743.html) No freedom of speech here is there?

[chipbgt]

Jad,

Give me a break.

I view those banner killers just like I view warez and napster. You are stealing something from someone in one form or another. And to think that someone would post something like that on a board that (suprise) stays afloat mainly due to banner ads, well that just shows ignorance.

[Unsecured Loner]

sorry Jad, I disagree. If some government agency came in and deleted your post, THAT would be censorship. This is a privately owned and run board, and those responsible for it have the right, even responsibility, to manage it as they see fit.

I believe that it is unpopular speech that needs protection. If a shopkeeper wants to put a sign in his/her window such as the one mentioned earlier in this thread, that would be fine with me. I have the right to not support a business that feels it necessary to advertise its ignorance.

[This message has been edited by Unsecured Loner (edited 07-29-2000).]

[Mntsnow]

Jad, You might also take notice that ROY is the one that edited his own postings. I would think that he did that once he realized after hearing from others (whether that be a member of the Sysopt web team or our other members) that when the "ad killer" was left as it is automatically configured (which is how most people would run it) that is would really hurt the financial support that is provided to Sysopt via Earthweb.

Also you will take note in the FAQ's and the agreement that you accepted to adhere to when you signed up to join the bbs here that: What about Censorship?

SysOpt.com retains the right to censor any member's post. The forums are public, and free for open use, but are maintained under the private ownership of EarthWeb and Sysopt.com. The administration of SysOpt.com can edit and/or remove any post, and can even delete any member's account. A reason is commonly provided for these actions, but no expressed reason is actually required for these actions to occur

and in the register agreement

Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by email. We have the ability to remove objectionable messages and we will make every effort to do so, within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary. This is a manual process, however, so please realize that we may not be able to remove or edit particular messages immediately.
You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law

I'm still learning the "moderating" role and unfortunately I might make mistakes along the way in your view but I will always try and be fair and would hope that you will be fair in your support and views of Sysopt and it's team http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

Thats my personal views.

[Dputiger]

Censorship is simply the removal of something someone finds objectionable by a person with the power to do so. But the government has ruled that as a private citizen I have a right to decide what is and isn't objectionable in my own private home, etc, (within legal limits of porn and such things).

So if Sysopt wants to make something 'illegal' to post, they have the right too--its THEIR bulletin board.

[falcompsx]

i agree with you totally, sysopt, is providing us a service, and it's their service, they have the right to censor their users, i understand that. however, the government has no business whatsoever censoring this site, even if sysopt wants to promote communism. That is their choice here in america. my original post was cencored, but even though i disagree with their censorship of it, it's their choice alone to censor it.

[narayan]

Here's a good article on Freedom of Speech. You liberals oughtta like this one. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_dougherty/20000729_xnjdo_gore_suppo.shtml

[chipbgt]

Quote from link above (read link story first)

Also, regarding critics of Gore's campaign, the DNC spokesman said the Green Bay event "featured an area specifically designated for protestors of the campaign." She said she didn't know if Litscher was in that designated area. She added that Gore supports First Amendment rights.

Meaning, Mr Gore says you can display your criticism for my campaign but only where I say you can, and as long as no one sees it. Granted, I can bet this kind of thing happens a lot (on both sides), it just didnt get the coverage this one did.

[BBA]

Hmmm..well, if the guy was outside the fence...meaning not a part of the event...he could display any sign he wants too.

My opinion.

Now, what on earth makes anyone think that you have to be in a designated area for protesting anything?

[falcompsx]

well looks like freedom of speech is gone, also freedom to bare arms is gone too. Regulations on guns are understandable, given their destructive nature. Extensive background checks SHOULD be nessary to obtain any weapon. Also, to purchase ammunition, BUT the right to bare arms, even concealed is a constitutional right. I carry a knife on me everywhere i go, and it is a type of metal undetectable by *most* metal detectors(not sure if it's legal, but i don't care, the constitution makes it legal in my mind..) Why do i carry this *weapon*? simple, protection. I'm not crazy, I'll never attack someone, but if I get attacked, I will not hesitate to get out my knife. Bans on full auto weapons, and assualt rifles are completely understandable. We are granted no right to carry a rocket launcher around, just a right to bare arms. Hand guns, or rlfles in your home, or a knive in your pocket. it is a constitutional right as i see it.

[hellrulez]

Lately i really got into politics, something that i told myself not to get into it. But oh well, it's kinda interesting when you think about it.

First of all, Taxes:
There was a time, our women didn't had to work, Only one man could support their entire family with his job. But today, no...no, half the money that we make goes to the government and who know what clinton is doing with our f****** money. So our women have to get another job. :mad:

Second the Free Speech:
It's all bull****. I also dont believe in gay stuff, but i dont dislike them either. Our gov't has created law after law, everything something happen.

Stuff about Economics:

Mark my words, Economy is going do into hole, very soon. So save what you got.

[chipbgt]

hellrulez,

Is that sound economic advice? http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/biggrin.gif Just giving you a hard time.

I'll say it like it is..I am white 21 and a free man. I have no complaints.

[Dputiger]

This one's for BBA:

The USSC (United States Supreme Court) has ruled that citizen's engaging in LAWFUL (key word) protest can only do so in certain areas. This includes all public property and areas that are recognized as belonging to the community.

So, for example, it's completely legal for a group to protest on any public street, neighborhood sidewalk, town square, or common meeting area.

It is NOT legal for such groups to protest on the private property of individuals who do not wish them to be there. So, for example, its illegal for a group of protestors to gather on YOUR front lawn to protest something YOU'VE done. Basically, your right to privacy and private property over-rule the right of protest/freedom of speech.

Also, it's illegal to protest in an area that prevents a business or governmental agency from conducting work. So while citizens are allowed to protest executions, for example, they are not allowed to protest them from inside the jail or in the cell block.

[Axel]

You are free to say absolutely anything you want - but there are consequences to everything you say. Anyone can sue you for damages on just about anything and, while they might not win the case, they can drag it out in court long enough so that your attourney fees will kill you economically.

I'm much more concerned about the current state of property rights.

Here is what worries me -

1) Asset forfeiture laws - There are laws on the books designed for drug dealers - I.E. the arresting agency can take everything in a location if they can show that drug sales of a certain size ""may"" have happened there. Doesn't matter you didn't know about it - doesn't matter the drugs aren't yours - in some cases they can fully liquidate all physical property in 30 days by auction - the proceeds go to the arresting agency and the fed depending on where it happens. Should you actually be charged with a crime and win in your favor, you can then sue the arresting agency ( if they let you - they don't have to ) for the proceeds of the sale of your property - You, of course, have no funds with which to hire a good lawyer at this time - everything was seized....
The law was designed to stop drug dealers from leaving the area with any profits before prosecution - it was used in the Bush white-house 50,000 times....{I do plan to vote for Bush version II anyway}

2) Eminent Domain - The right of a government to take or authorize the taking of private property for public use - just compensation being given to the owner in return.... I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I haven't been exposed to the government that values my things the way I do.... City wants to build a road where your house is - you're moving bucko....

3) The IRS - if you are suspected of a crime where any sum of cash is involved, the Government can freeze your assets pending the outcome of the case so that any back-taxes owed can be "removed" from your estate. Again - tough to fight that when you can't afford a lawyer.

4) ANY tax authority - if you don't pay your taxes - tax authorities can take over your property much like a mortgage company can take over your home if you don't pay your bills. They don't have to pay you the difference between what you owe and what the property is actually worth on the open market.

That's the short list - there are other things regarding your car I won't go into - If you didn't pay cash for it and request a special title - you don't actually own it - the state does and they lease the possession title to you zero cost - has to do with the insurance system - it's complicated....

Children - Think those are yours - allow someone with a grudge to accuse you of doing something horrible to them - see how fast they become wards of the state.....

I'm in no way any part of any group against the government - as they go - we have one of the better ones... you just have to be aware.

just be aware that being in the right has absolutely nothing to do with rights....
The law is a blunt object and can be used to part you from everything you value.

You are free in America - you can get into a lot of trouble in a hurry - I.E. - you are free to fail all by yourself.....

Due process is a matter of opinion - usually not yours if you are subjected to it.