Recommend everyone read

[ILC]

Hey was surfing the net, and since you all know where I stand on gun control should read this. Just with that article alone I shouldnt have to argue anything anymore http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif
http://www.newsmax.com/commentmax/articles/Diane_Alden.shtml

ILC

[jad1097]

Funny thing is I saw an infomercial for the NRA last night, interesting to say the least. I could not believe some of the things Clinton had to say about them. What a fu**ing liar our president is!

BTW; a good story thanks.

[Mntsnow]

Amen http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[Warthog]

That's a cool story. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

I have my gun right above my bed and 4 clips (in 2 pairs cause they are taped bottom to bottom) of 10 rds ea. 4ft. away, next to my keyboard. Next to the clips is my USMC Ka-Bar fighting knife with a 7in. blade.

hehehe....let 'em try to come into my house... http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

Warthog

[Carlos Kerr]

What if? What if that was your wife/children/lover/mother/friend? Would they be as prepared? Why is it that the simple truth as revealed in that article can be so easily trampled under the bootheel of the elite? A society that refuses to support the most basic human RIGHT, the right to SELF-PRESERVATION is no longer civil,in fact it has become the most barbaric of all civilizations. By allowing animals to roam free and terrorize the innocent and at the same time actively and aggressively pursuing the disarmarment of the citizenry who make up our once-great nation, we are truly at the threshold of tyranny. We have programmed ourselves to believe and consequently behave like a "nation of COWARDS" all the while filling the highest positions of service in our land with liers, perverts, swindlers, and con-men. Then like infants we cry out for 'protection' from the monsters the aforementioned have created purposly to do exactly what they are doing; creating an atmosphere of FEAR and confusion. If we are truly free, then we are truly free to use reasonable means to remove any threat to our LIFE-LIBERTY-AND PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS, whether it be criminal or political. Are we mice or men?

[ILC]

Right on you all. As of you carlos, you can not get anymore correct then you are. I couldnt agree wit you more on what our country is coming to. Its rediculous. Jad im sorry but you are just now learning our presidnet is a lier?? http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif Lol warthog, even though Im 16 and still live with my parents I know how to use all 15 guns in my house : ) Which include a gov't issue riot gun (my favorite) several shotguns, 5 rifles, and of course the Handguns. A glock 21 .45, a walther ppk, identical to what bond uses, a sig .357 glock, and a .40 glock. ALL are kept loaded at all times. Like the quote says, better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6.

ILC

[tonym]

An EXCELLENT example. But the bleeding-heart liberals will always be able to pooh-pooh the story away with the wave of a hand.

These media geniuses have ordained that everyting is "RISKY" these days. Not confiscating your guns is RISKY.

I say electing ignorant, vain and uncaring fools like these folks (the Clinton-istas) is RISKY to me!


Tony

[wtp]

i dont' have a gun, but hehe, if aliens invade this world, a MP5 and a few magnums and 45s would do. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif anyways, i guess that gun really saved her there. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

wtp

[Warthog]

I'm 16 also http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif.

Glock handguns rock.
http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif
Warthog

[jad1097]

I knew he was a liar along with 99.9999% of the politicians out there. I think it has to be in their resume.

My point was I did not know Clinton raged the NRA so much.

[narayan]

Great story, thanks. I e-mailed it to 17 people on my list! Why do the Clinton-oids (rhymes with hemmerhoids) want to take our guns away? ask yourself that when we know that they know the facts...

[ILC]

Clinton has always ragged the NRA.

And yes glocks are the best : ) Agree there Warthog.

ILC

[jokostel]

clinton can have my guns when he pries them from my cold dead fingers.
nuf said.
jokostel

viva the 2cd amendment
it gives us the right to wage war on a gov gone bad... http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

and we pretty much are on the brink of a revolution when ya think about it really.... the clinton-gore company has been in long enough!

[OuTpaTienT]

Don't get me started on Bill Clinton...

Ya know, if I seriously give the subject (of our President) any thought, it literally sickens me. How in the world did we ever end up with a "leader" that is more despicable that a nasty'ol piece of sh*t.

Just think about this FACT whenever you hear or see Clinton speak, whenever he looks into the camera with that false compassion in his eyes, just remember...that when our country was calling upon the TRUE MEN of our society to leave their homes and go fight, and die in a foreign land for ideals that we believed were right, Clinton was hiding, dodging the draft in England...BUT (as if that weren't bad enough) he was publicly protesting America!!!

I know there are many aspects and points of view regarding Vietnam and I can respect all of them. But many, if not most, of the servicemen called to duty for Vietnam also did not agree with the war, or even understand it. But still, they put aside personal beliefs to serve their country...and unfortunately all too many of them sacrificed their lives for that same country. To me, those men are TRUE HEROES. Not just the ones that died, but all the men who answered the call when Lady Liberty said "I got a job for you, and it may not be fun".

And someone like Clinton, that not only hid from the call of duty, but publicly denounced this country from the shores of another country,...well, someone like him doesn't even deserve to breath the same air as our vets do. And how he came to lead this country and thus be Commander in Chief of our military just boggles my mind. Ironic doesn't even begin to describe it.

Anyday I'm expecting the swarm of locusts, famine, pestilence, plaque,...the whole 9-yards, for The End surely can't be far away when someone like Clinton, a man deserving less respect than a urine soaked piece of **** floating in a clogged up toilet can be elected as President of the most powerful country on the planet. For crying out loud, he shouldn't even be allow to be a citizen of this country much less our leader.

**** it, if I told ya once I told ya a million times, don't get me started on Bill Clinton. Arrrrgh!

[This message has been edited by socalgal (edited 06-16-2000).]

[narayan]

I could not have said it better. He makes me sick to my stomache. I better stop here before I start to say things that Echelon may pick up on.

[alondra]

the liberal, media rarely mentions the many times a person with a gun saves the life of himself or family. that isn't news?

[zskillz]

u know, I think it's a **** shame that we need guns to resolve issues in this day and age...
ealier this semester, an argument developed between a bunch of drunks (myself included) on our front porch with some other drunks who are known for causing trouble... now it would have gotten really ugly if there weren't so many more of us than them (they backed down), but that's not the part that frightens me...
the part that frightens me is that one of my roommates went into his room and got his empty gun and put it inside of his coat and came back out... he never once showed it to them or even mentioned it, but he got it just in case things were going to get out of control. The fact that he owns a gun doesn't frighten me at all (much like many of u seem to be, he was raised around guns and has a healthy respect and understanding of them[his dad's a cop too!]), but as soon as you introduce something like a gun into the situation, all of the sudden, it's taken to a new level... next time those guys show up looking for trouble, they could bring a gun with them as well, and perhaps theirs will even be loaded... so where does this leave us, in a big s*#thole is where!
so it resolved one little situation, but it sets a president (sp?) and that is where the danger lies.

i have no doubt that the greater majority of you are all level headed enough to never consider misusing the power that you have in your guns, but as i'm sure you know, you are in the minority when it comes to people who can act rationally under extreme duress...

so i'll tell you what, i don't want more gun laws, i just want the ones that we have to be enforced better... I don't want to have to worry about getting shot because i cut of some dipsh*t in traffic who can't control himself (it's happend out there before)

-Z

oh yea__ I like clinton by the way and i think he's doing a pretty good job!
so take that http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by socalgal (edited 06-16-2000).]

[scotter]

you know why nothing bad has every happened to clinton ? like what happened to Lincon JFK, or Reagan ? couse lunitic's dont mess with there own kind http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[Warthog]

LOL Scotter!!! http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

Warthog

[Ygor]

I have no problem with guns myself.

It's the bullets...

[dkozloski]

Better me being tried for his murder than him being tried for mine.

[NeilTrain]

Yes people save themselves with guns all the time, but for every time someone uses a gun in self defense there are 20 times a child shoots himself, his sibling, or friend playing with guns. Sure, be responsible, keep your gun locked and unloaded, but what happens when you get a call saying your kid was at a friends house, and was shot by his best friend playing with a gun. You cant control how other parents keep thier guns.

Just last week two girls from the high school i graduated from a few years back were driving in the rain, they skidded as they tried to stop, and rear-ended an SUV, no one was hurt, but the two men in the SUV got out and shot each girl 6 times, killing them on the spot, the men have yet to be found.

And what are you going to do when your kids go to school and some pstcho walks in with an assualt rifle? The right to bear arms wont save them there, but banning guns in the US would.

Do you really think if the US government became a tyranny, that the public would be able to overthrow it with our hand guns, hunting rifles, and the few automatic weapons we have? I dont think so, bullets dont do much to tanks, stealth bombers, sarin gas, and all the other hight tech weapons our nation is armed to the teeth with and keeps well out of the reach of the public.

How about we compare three modernized, english speaking, western countries with gun laws.

The UK - no guns, last i heard they are averaging 3 murders a year, not counting IRA terrorism.

Canada - no guns, about 20 murders a year, im not sure on this one, But im half canadian, and i know of towns in cancada that i visit where the police dont even carry guns, they never seem to have a problem.

The US - allows guns, New York City alone averages 16 murders a day.
who nows how many people have been shot across the US since i started typing this post.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. If there is choice of saving one life or 20, theres no contest.

The bill of rights was written on paper, not engraved in stone. Times change and the needs of the population change with them. The NRA has done a fine job of making the entire country believe the bill of rights is untouchable, when in fact they were designed to be changed and modified from the begining.

[narayan]

I can't f*****g believe what I just read.

[waferdog]

Neil,

That story you put in your post was probably a bunch of BS. If the girls were shot six times and no one has found the killers, that more than likely means that that no one saw the accident. Therefore, how could anyone know that the girls were not hurt in the initial accident as stated in the story? This reeks of a story crafted by the antigun folk (they are very good at spinning a story) so that their cause can be furthered. Truly, lunatics suck, but it ain't the guns fault. Last I heard, bombs were illegal in the US, and yet people still use them to kill. Mean people will hurt other people, no matter what tool they use. Truth is, without guns, this country would fall into near dictatorship, as is already starting to happen.

[narayan]

http://www.vixpy.demon.co.uk/gun/stats/Robbery.gif
http://www.vixpy.demon.co.uk/gun/stats/Violent_Crime.gif

These are interesting...



[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 06-14-2000).]

[OuTpaTienT]

NeilTrail...OMG you are so unbelievably ignorant. Talk about brainwashed!

Yes people save themselves with guns all the time, but for every time someone uses a gun in self defense there are 20 times a child shoots himself, his sibling, or friend playing with guns.

LOL!!!! Dude, you canNOT be serious. Please.....wake up. Stop being such a gullible sheepish drone. Do yourself a favor and think on your own. OMG, if I could stop laughing I might be able to form a response to this......geeez. What a fool.....I guess it takes all, and I mean ALL kinds.

[alondra]

niel train. seems to think WE are being brainwashed! hate to tell him but more kids drown in 5 gal plastic buckets of water than are shot, this is fact. and more people save their lives, (often by just showing a gun,)of course this does not show in the media, DC has some of the most stringent gun laws in the nation and look at the murder rate. then check Arizona, any citizen can carry a gun in public. not many carjacking when a 38 is laying on the seat next to you.

[Warthog]

Hehehe...this is getting fun. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

This is even better:
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few
...or the one http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif. LOL I saw Star Trek II also. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

Neil, ever heard of guerilla warfare?? How do you think America was made? The militia fought with few numbers and guns against the British who had thousands of men, cannons and a navy. The Vietnamese used guerilla warfare also. We had high tech weaponry up the wazoo, but we still lost. I'm not saying that was the only reason, it just contributed to the loss. No way in hell, would the government try to take away our guns. If they did, there would be a big fight. Remember when the government tried to ban alcohol? The people prevailed.

Warthog

[scotter]

if you really want to know what would happen to this place if they outlawed guns just look at what is happening in the land down under last year they took all the guns from the good people now crime and murder are going through the roof why ? DUH it's easyer for #$% wipes to buy guns off the streets than for a good law abiding person to buy one from a dealer oops forgot aussies cant buy guns anymore
but the mother jurks can still get them any time they want

out law guns here see what happens

oops almost forgot by the way how ya gona get every one to turn in there guns ?

I know lets get the BLACK BOOT's to come and kick in every ones door house to house serch's for contraband
while there at it they can take the computer's, books, and anything else they think is bad for us

[This message has been edited by scotter (edited 06-14-2000).]

[narayan]

The NRA has done a fine job of making the entire country believe the bill of rights is untouchable, when in fact they were designed to be changed and modified from the begining.I invite ANYONE to find information that backs this statement up. I will bet that it can't be done. Post a link to the Constitution or Bill of Rights that says that the rights granted can be taken away. I bet you can't. I will even look myself. GOOD LUCK!!! HHHAAAAHHHHHAAAAAA HHHHHAHAAAAAA AHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAH I'M DYIN' LAUGHIN HHAHAHAHAHHAAHHHHAHAHAHAHHAHA

[GroundZero3]

Why do people think banning guns will make it a better place to live? There books out there on how to make your own weapons. And banning them is not going to get rid of them. It will just be another thing that the police have to watch beening smuggle not that there do it right now. even know im 17 and the closes i have been to a gun is probbally a bb gun. I say that you Should be able to bear arms. and i agree with dkozloski

"Better me being tried for his murder than him being tried for mine." and that is only if im was defending myself.

JaYsin

[narayan]

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/const/bor.html Well, there is the Bill of Rights, no mention of this document to change with time... as a matter of fact I see more things keeping the gubmint in check rather than the people. I'll keep looking.....

~edit http://lcweb2.loc.gov/const/fed/fedpaper.txt There's a link to the Federalist Papers, I'll keep looking...

~edit~update on situation http://lcweb2.loc.gov/const/declar.html Here's a link to the Declaratin of Independance, still more **** about individual freedom. I'll keep looking...

~edit~ http://lcweb2.loc.gov/const/const.html Here's a link to the Constitution of the United States.

Seriously, I urge everyone to read these documents. They are a very important part of the history of the United States. They are incredible documents.




[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 06-14-2000).]

[Warthog]

Speaking of books, if I had a drill press, I could make a Ruger Mini 14 or Ruger 10/22 full auto with the aid of a book. I've attempted to make a silencer but failed. I wasn't using a book and am about to try again because of lessons I learned the first time. There are many, many books on each of those topics. Not kidding, go search Amazon.

Warthog

[ILC]

Neil Train up until now I thought you were smart, now I have absolutely no respect for you. Your posts are crazy. And actually your responses are incorrect. Britain, Australia, and every other country that has banned guns are now reporting astronmically high crime rates. Now thats the truth, not some liberal press media BS that the tv and radios try to brain wash you with. Bill Clinton is by FAR the worst thing that has ever happened to this country. The man is such a joke and I also fall ill from just the sound of his name. Scotter I loved your post about him draft dodging. Zskillz, what the heck has that man done? Make the military at an all time low with the lowest moral ever? Give away all our nuclear top secrets to china? Lower the entire moral of the entire country? Oh and if you say he has been good for teh economy well guess again, actually he just got on a free ride, becuase alot of the polices that strengthened our economy were set in place by bush and reagan!

Anyways back to guns....i find it SO amazing when I here that "take away the guns and youll take away crime" that is attonishing people think that! Come on now, get real! And Neil Train, the bill of rights was made to change?!?! YEA RIGHT! That is what our country based on, and why our GREAT forefathers set up this country! The bill of rights state that if our rights are infringed upon then the people have and should take over the governement. Who was it Thomas Jefferson who said "A little revolution is essential for the well being of mankind" (Please dont quote me exactly, I know it is something like that but im not sure the exact words). Well you know what, the day that they pass the law banning all guns (and dont kid yourself, that is exactly what they are trying to do, every law is just another step closer) there will be a revolution inthis country, but you know what, there would then be a new goverment, becuase I know who would win, it wouldnt even be a contest. When humans believe strongly enough for something, NOTHING can stop them! Like ive said before, guns are for personal protection, and protection from our own government.

"From my cold dead hands"
"Better to be judged by 12, then carried by 6"

ILC

[NeilTrain]

You have all been brainwashed,

Since 1991, the NRA has spent 9.1 million in Pro-gun lobbying, Anti gun lobbying over the same period totalled $832,791 Source:http://www.opensecrets.org/news/guns/index.htm

And the story about the two girls was true, there were witnesses, and one of them was my little brothers classmate.

This is one of those issues i feel will never be resolved, therefore im not going to waste any more time trying to change any minds here. Dont expect any more posts from me in this thread, they would be a useless effort. I will exercise my rights on election day, and expect you all to do the same. Though i will most likely vote republican, i am still for gun control.

signing off....
- Neil

[dkozloski]

If you don't think a successful insurrection can be mounted with small arms I suggest you read the latest issue of Scientific American magazine. Small arms up to and including machine guns, grenade launchers, and mortars are available world wide for cheap prices. Third worlders have major nations tied in knots all over the globe. Did you ever hear of Chechnya or Rwanda? How about the Russian partisans that had the Nazis tied up for years during WWll. Ever hear of Marshall Tito? How about the Phillipino Huks? And saving the best for last, the VC kicked our asses pretty good with what they could carry on their backs.

[narayan]

The reason for the difference in spending is because the news media favors Gun Control and reports to the public on the Pro-2nd Amendment crowd unfavorably. The NRA has to spend to compete with the press.

And another thing, the Anti-gun crowd isn't as large as we are let to believe. They just get favorable treatment by the press, that makes them seem more significant than they really are. Consequently, they don't have as much money to spend.



[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 06-14-2000).]

[Mntsnow]

Amen!

[DEMENTEDEVIL]

GUNS RULEEE!!!!!!!!

[Ygor]

Guess no one really considered my post about the bullets.
Those who cite the Constitution seem to forget that at that time, guns were black powder types used mainly to hunt game.

I have known many responsible gun owners myself who use black powder pieces and some who even assemble their own bullets. The gun itself may be a collector's item.

And that's all it is without bullets.

Yes I know the argument that a gun is only "effective" when loaded.

However, would most responsible gun owners have a real problem with mass-manufactured bullets being restricted/rationed?

It seems it's always someone else's gun when kids get into trouble. Or someone else who sold a gun to someone like the killer of John Lennon.

The types who should not have this access may just eliminate themselves (see Darwin) if they had to make their own bullets.

[jad1097]

Here are some links I found doing a search on "how many kids are killed with guns in the USA".



President Clinton Claimed 13 Children Are Killed By Guns Everyday:

Incessant repetition will never make this statement true. To reach the "13 children" figure, President Clinton and anti-gun groups count anyone under the age of 20 as a "child." The reason is simple--there are relatively few firearm-related deaths among children ages 0-14, but a much greater number among juveniles and young adults ages 15-19. Adding both age groups together increases the number of deaths among "children" 569%.

http://www.nraila.org/
http://www.gunowners.org/fs9901.htm
http://www.vpc.org/linksndx.htm#pro-gun%20special%20interests
http://reason.com/0006/fe.ks.loaded.html


http://www.ghc.org/health_info/self/children/kidsguns.html
http://www.oxfordmicrodevices.com/safergun.html
http://www.naplesnews.com/today/local/d232005a.htm


There is just tons of BS on this subject that I don't care to look at it any longer.

Safty should come first when it comes to guns. If your child takes your gun and kills someone they you and your child should both go to prison, no if and or buts about it. I think that may help people be more responsable with their weapons.

As I have said in the past I do not have any weapons in my home because of my lack of self control, I will not think twice about shooting someone. Ok I do have some knives and a baseball bat http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif.

But if you are a US citzen you have the right to have a weapon period! The second ammendment was put in place for a reason.

Here is Bill of Rights (http://www.townhall.com/documents/billofrights.html) You will notice in the second amendment that it clearly states "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Congress OF THE United States

begun and held at the City of New-York, on Wednesday the Fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.
THE Conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution

RESOLVED by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following Articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, all or any of which Articles, when ratified by three fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of the said Constitution; viz.:

ARTICLES in addition to, and Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the fifth Article of the original Constitution.


Article the first [Not Ratified]
After the first enumeration required by the first Article of the Constitution, there shall be one Representative for every thirty thousand, until the number shall amount to one hundred, after which the proportion shall be so regulated by Congress, that there shall be not less than one hundred Representatives, nor less than one Representative for every forty thousand persons, until the number of Representatives shall amount to two hundred; after which the proportion shall be so regulated by Congress, that there shall not be less than two hundred Representatives, nor more than one Representative for every fifty thousand persons.


Article the second [Amendment XXVII - Ratified 1992]
No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened.


Article the third [Amendment I]
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


Article the fourth [Amendment II]
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


Article the fifth [Amendment III]
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.


Article the sixth [Amendment IV]
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Article the seventh [Amendment V]
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


Article the eighth [Amendment VI]
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.


Article the ninth [Amendment VII]
In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.


Article the tenth [Amendment VIII]
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


Article the eleventh [Amendment IX]
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Article the twelfth [Amendment X]
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


ATTEST: Frederick Augustus Muhlenberg, Speaker of the House of Representatives




[This message has been edited by jad1097 (edited 06-15-2000).]

[narayan]

Congress shall make no law...
...the right of the people...
...shall not be infringed...
...without the consent of the Owner...
...The right of the people to be secure in their persons...
...shall not be violated...
...nor shall private property be taken for public use...
...nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted...
...are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people...

Kinda sounds like they were trying to keep the gubmint in check. Hey Neil, are these some of the things that were designed to be changed?


[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 06-15-2000).]

[ILC]

About the bullet thing, we reload shotgun and rifle in my basement. But we also buy alot of store bought. When reloading rifle, you dont reload just to make your own bullets. You make it save save money, but also mainly to get that dead accurate, very consitant bullet, that will put 3-5 bullets touching the same hole at 200 yards. And anyways, give it time...someone will try to pass "bullet" laws. Instead of gun laws, we need mass gun educaton. Then strict punishments on the people who decide to shoot or kill someone, or even use a gun in a robbery or such. As of when you punish the parents for what there kids done, I dont hink so in mose cases. The kids know what there doing. My car is under my parents name, so if I decide to go run someone over should my parents get in troble for that? Same thing isnt it?

[jad1097]

I don't think you get my point. If a parent leaves the gun where the child can access it and kill someone then they should be punished for their failure to provide a safe environment. Well something like that.

Say a gun is kept is a gun cabinet with a glass door and the kid breaks the glass and gets the weapon and kills someone then the parent did make an effort to put the weapon in a half-*** safe place.

Lets say a parent leaves a loaded pistol on their dresser and the child takes that pistol and kills someone, then I belive that parent should be help liable for that child's actions.

It is just my opinion because I had people I knew when I was a kid that were killed because of similar situations of the second example. And all the parents could say is oh I am sorry that my kid got my pistol and killed your child because he was showing it off to your child and accidently pulled the trigger thinking it was not loaded etc..



[This message has been edited by jad1097 (edited 06-15-2000).]

[narayan]

. Then strict punishments on the people who decide to shoot or kill someone The punishment for murder or attempted murder should be identical, regardless of how someone is killed. The weapon used is inconsequential. Except for torture and stuff like in "Strangeland". Mass education, which is not being done now, needs to be implemented.

[Lacy]

Interesting discussion.

Don't know if any one has thought of this or not, except for ILC and Narayan, (maybe I'm just a bit paranoid about the gov't), but our right to bear arms is to protect us against the TYRANNY of the gov't and congress is NOT supposed to TAKE this right away. Most gun owners are very responsible, and whether you hunt or not is NOT the point.

Instead of trying to argue for banning guns why don't you ask yourself why the "wonderful" gov't is trying soooooooooooo hard to "brainwash" everyone into believing owning guns is so very, very terrible? Stopping people from owning guns will stop crime????????? Get real.

There is a little town out west, which enacted a law, after the Brady bill passed, that every citizen of this town MUST purchase a gun and carry it on their person when they leave their home. Guess what the crime rate of this town is?

BTW, I myself am not a gun owner, but I will fight for EVERY honest responsible citizen who does believe in owning a gun, cuz the time is coming when we WILL need to protect ourselves from the tyranny of our o so wonderful gov't.

[This message has been edited by Lacy (edited 06-15-2000).]

[jad1097]

Very well said Lacy. I agree with you 100%. I will have no weapons in my house with no exceptions. But I have my reasons for that and my friends and family respect it. Hell My brother has several pistols, shot guns and rifles and is a member of the NRA for a reason.

And no you are no paranoid but wise and see through all the BS. Y0u may want to read what Tony wrote here. (http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/006963.html) I read this several years ago in the local college library.




[This message has been edited by jad1097 (edited 06-15-2000).]

[Lacy]

Jad.... Thanks for the link to the article. Very interesting, as well as true. A democracy NEVER lasts. As for where we are in that list I tend to agree with selfishness to apathy with apathy to dependency a close second. BTW, has anyone realized America is supposed to be a republic and NOT a democracy?????? We, as American's, have fooled ourselves into believing we are a Democracy and allowed the government to dictate what we can and can't do. And we have NO ONE to blame but OURSELVES. Always crying and whinning for the gov't to "FIX" this and that, ever forgetting the government is supposed to working for us as a whole, and NOT for the few.

I wonder how many history buffs on this forum ever compare America to the Germany of around 1939 and see a parallel????? Tis a shame humans never learn from past mistakes.

[ILC]

Excelent posts lacey. I am intrigued though, do you know the name of this twon, or what state it is in? Or were I may find more information on this town? Thanks

ILC

[OuTpaTienT]

I've heard of this town too. Don't know any details though. If anyone has info, please share.

Lacy, I hope to see your total post count growing fast and furious. Even though there are already so many here, it's always nice to welcome another intelligent and rational mind to the discussions. (Plus it helps balance the load when I occassionally get irrational. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif)

[narayan]

Still havn't found anything. I'll keep looking....

[akaBruno]

While I believe in the right to bear arms, I also believe that they should be kept out of the hands of fanatics. Your ideas of debate are only those that you've bitten on. In essence, you have become the bate yourselves. If you took the time to think before spouting such venemous sh*t, you'd realizie how much you're damaging the cause. Ignorance of the issue is being exhibited on both sides. Wake up and learn diplomacy...

[This message has been edited by socalgal (edited 06-16-2000).]

[narayan]

Bruno, would you clarify "fanatics" please?

[Lacy]

ILC... I've e-mailed my sister to see if she can remember the name of the town. It's somewhere close to the Texas panhandle I believe, although not in Texas. Truthfully, I've forgotten; and having just recently moved I still have all that packed away. I have not kept up on what has happened since the initial 6 months or so. Been too busy with work and computers. If she can remember I'll pass the info along when she answer's.

Outpatient, thax for the compliments. Always nice to have a calm and intelligent debate.


As for not thinking before "spouting", I thot I had given it alot of thot before I "spouted".

The point is, I don't think you can totally keep any weapon from "fanatics". There will ALWAYS be a way to get what you want, if you want it badly enough, no matter what laws are passed. My gripe is the gov't wants to keep weapons out of EVERYONE'S hands, even honest and responsible citizen's, bypassing our right to protect ourselves from those history has constantly shown are the ones we need the most protection from! Most people forget the TRUE reason for "bearing arms", and I thought diplomacy was based on using the language with intelligence and calmness, without lowering yourself to vulgarity?

[This message has been edited by Lacy (edited 06-16-2000).]

[U-96]

The Declaration of Indepedence is about as eloquent as one can be in describing the historical context behind the 2nd Amendment. I was also blindly anti-gun, but when one realises the reasoning and intent behind the creation of the USA, it is obvious why it is as important to Americans as the Magna Carta is to the English. Some may see it as paranoia, but it must be understood how important it is, and why it is there.


That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,
deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these
ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,
and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such
principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them
shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established
should not be changed for light and transient causes; and
accordingly all experience hath shown, that mankind are more
disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right
themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing
invariably the same Object, evinces a design to reduce them under
absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw
off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future
security.


This does not constitute a right to shoot people. It was seen as a necessary safeguard by Libertarian and educated men to prevent a repeat of the abuse of the Colonies under British rule.

Gun laws. Hmmmm that a toughie, and not helped by fundamentalists on each side. Most civilised countries have gun control legislation, some stricter than others. Many, like the US, Italy, Canada, Norway and Finland have a tradition of hunting and field sports, and as such there are a considerable number of guns in circulation.
Yet all have very different profiles regarding armed crime. The key here is that social issues - poverty, race tension, drugs, etc are far more important in determining crime than the availability of guns.
In all these countries (in all likelihood, I could say "in all countries") the vast majority of crime is committed with guns that were stolen from their legitimate and licenced owners, or were imported illegally from countries with large amounts of guns in free circulation (Eastern Europe for example).

These laws, however strictly enforced, are little barrier to someone already intent on committing crime. And because the US has a greater number of people intent on crime than anywhere else in the world (more prisoners than China AFAIK), the "home defense" reasoning also carries some weight.

As regards changing the Constitution, of course it can be done. That's what the 2nd Amendment is. And the 3rd. And you don't have slavery anymore http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif



Article V
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress; provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate.

[from Article IV]
No person held to service or labor in one state, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due.


Amendment XIII
(1865)
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.




U-96

[Ygor]

Sheesh, getting hot here!

Many people do leave "representative" out when speaking of democracy in the US. It's not a true democracy like Switzerland used to have. (What happened to them since no democracy can last? Anyone tell them yet?)

Again, at the time the Constitution and the original Bill of Rights were written, single shot firearms were available to armies and citizens alike. Just a guess, but at least 10 seconds between shots? That's time to get away if only wounded or better yet, missed!

Most reading this thread are aware of the firepower available now, assault rifles used for hunting and such. Our forefathers were wise, but had they seen that... well maybe they did see that. The Constitution can be amended.

Yes, a representative democracy is responsible to the people governed, and part of the reasoning behind the right to bear arms was for self protection against a tyrannical government.

Another responsibility of this particular representative democracy is to keep the peace and ensure the safety of all the citizens...

Many felt the US government was tyrannical back in the 60's. Can you imagine the bloodbath had those revolting against that used guns instead of flowers and beads?

Sorry, even uzi's and ar 47's just aren't too effective on tanks/fighters were there a real uprising against the US government. I for one can't buy that one.

I don't see where anyone is interested in taking away another's gun(s) here, despite that argument. It's keeping them out of the wrong hands and how to determine that.

I do see where too many children and adults have died because someone we might well judge (after the fact) as "irresponsible" used a gun.

I don't care about the statistics, isn't one of these deaths too many?

What we have now did not prevent deaths we can all recall. What will?

[narayan]

I have been proven wrong. Guess I chose a bad way to make a point. Another one of the responsibilities of the gubmint is to stay out of the business of the states and people, yet they place themselves into our lives on a daily basis. Sure, they need to ensure the safety of the people, but what they are missing is that we can do it without their help. Or, we can do it with limited help. What has changed so much since then to make guns such a bad thing? Technology and peoples attitudes. That is all, in a nutshell. What's so different? We were Americans then and we are Americans now. We have nicer houses. We have cars and computers. Why limit freedoms now that we were able to handle at one time? Instead of removing guns, why not try to make the population respect other peoples property and respect life? Oh, I know. Taking away guns is easy, compared to changing attitudes. But changing an attitude has far more positive results.
The fact that people choose to use a weapon in a commission of a crime is not the fault of the weapon, right?

~edit~ U-96, glad to see you on board!

[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 06-16-2000).]

[Lacy]

>>>>The key here is that social issues - poverty, race tension, drugs, etc are far more important in determining crime than the availability of guns.<<<<<

Very eloquentely said U-96, and you are quite correct. This is a far more important issue and I stand corrected. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by Lacy (edited 06-16-2000).]

[ILC]

Im still not persuaded, I agree that drugs, racial tesion etc, is the main source of shootings, but the government has made it pretty clear that these issues arent the reason. GUNS ARE! Lol we need out guns to protect ourselves from those issues when they get to close to us. Oh yea and about citizens not being able to do anything to the army or whatever, I find that VERY hard to believe. Look at what the colonists had against the british. The confederates vs. union. The underground vs. nazis. And oh yea, vietnam vs. U.S.A. Head to head, I agree we would get slaughtered, but through ambushes and guerilla warfare, I guarantee we would still be VERY effective.

ILC

[ILC]

Personally I thought this thread was over, but I found something out there that I think everyone should check out, and I didnt want to post a whole nother topic over this one with all the **** about garbage threads so.....oh here it is. Check out this famous quote I ran into:

"This year will go down in hisotry. For the first time a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient and the world will follow our lead into the furure."

-1935, Adolf Hitler

Lol yup I agree, we should ban all guns. Whatelse needs to be said?? http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

ILC

[Lacy]

Interesting parallel you give ILC, I commend you on your research. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif ^5

[waferdog]

Ygor,

Hate to beleagure a point, but your comment about "isn't one of these deaths too many" is not very well thought out and quite a cliche. Hate to sound callous here, but people die. It happens. One way or another, everyone does. Taking your reasoning, we should ban cars, because many more people die because of them every year, and one of those is one too many. How about water, which kills more people every year than guns. Should we prevent people from going near them. Electricity, stairs, fire? The point is, it is not the government's job to insure that we don't die and I don't want that to be their job. I don't mind them regulating industries to make sure the products we buy are as safe as they can be, but to take something away from millions to insure the life of one person is too much.

[This message has been edited by waferdog (edited 06-19-2000).]

[Warthog]

You've got a point. What if we tried our best to keep everyone alive? The worlds population is already 6.5 or 7 billion(?).

Warthog

[Junky]

Anyone that can read will clearly understand that the 2nd Amendment is about the Right to Bear Arms, the individual citizen's Right to protect themselves from the tyranny of the Govt, as well as for self defence, and for a well regulated militia, not a militia ran by the government either. Has not one thing to do with hunting.

The black powder guns were the most modern weapon available in the 1700's. If at that time the M-16 were available, the 2nd Amendment would still have been written exactly the same. It's about protection, what ever it takes!!! Not what you can't use for protection.

If, God forbid, there is another civil war in this nation because of tyranny, guess who has the most firepower? Liberals or Conservatives. Guerilla warfare will win out everytime, it's much more efficient. If there ever is a civil war, it will be due to the oppression of the Democrate party. Mark my words.

[jokostel]

sorry ilc:>> i just get a little pi$$ed when people start talking about taking guns away from normal citizens

[OuTpaTienT]

hehe, I like this. First Lacy, now Junky. We're gonna run out of people to argue with if we continue to attract people that already seem to have the "right" idea.

Welcome aboard Junky. (and sorry about the misunderstanding in the other post.)

[Junky]

http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[ILC]

Whats the matter, no one can argue that we should still ban guns after that last quote?? Hmmm wonder why? Have we (gun supporters) won this debate? Sure looks like it http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

Jokostel: Np so do I

ILC

[Warthog]

This is pretty cool. I never thought that Sysopt would be full of pro gun people http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif.

Warthog

[jokostel]

ilc:>> lemme ask you this very simple question!. do you ACTUALLY THINK that people that go out and commit murders and gangs of thugs and thieves go out and say... well im gonna go kill 10 people lets go buy some guns!!!! NO!!!!!1! THEY DONT!!!!
They steal the guns!
And normal citizens have every f&&*&%king right to protect themselves and uphold our constitution.
Did you hear what i said the constitution of the United States Of America STATES.... read it sometime bub.... In the second amendment the the people of this country have the right to bear arms for personal & civil protection and against a government gone bad... such as the clinton gore era.....
clinton is a communist!!!!! this is the FIRST THING YOU DO TO FULLY CONTROL THE PEOPLE IS TO TAKE AWAY THEIR PROTECTION TO ELIMINATE THE THREAT TO THE GOVERNMENT...
Lemme think here why did our fourfathers come to this continent to break away from tyranny and opression at the time because king george wanted this hole continent for Great Britain.
We broke away from them after many wars where blood was spilt all over the land.. and eventually we set up our bill of rights & our constitution (which countries like france have developed their constitutions after) which both have many amendments & clauses to them... they developed the constitution to save the laws & freedoms that they knew we would need over time.. like the 2cd amendment.... we have the right to make SURE that our country is saved and upheld from a goverment that wishes to control everything which we hold dear and take from granted everyday like the freedom to hunt with our guns & shoot at ranges & trap clubs with our guns. not to mention protect ourseleves from it.....!
don't you remotely see whats going on here... the people that love guns and will use them till our dying day for hunting,trap,range uses (myself included)
WILL NOT HAVE THEM TAKEN AWAY BY A TYPE OF COMMUNISIM CLINTON&GORE ARE PUSHING IN THIS COUNTRY.
thank you for your time......
jokostel
Nra fighting for AMERICA forever!

[ILC]

Jokostel:

Hmm either A) You havent read this entire post, and you missed my sarcasim in the last paragraph

or

B)You thought I got clobbered on the head, and became a liberal luntic over night http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

Im on your side! I agree with everything you said! I posted that quote so I could better put across my point of reason why we NEED guns, so something like that will NOT happen to us. I was hoping people would pick up on my sarcasim in that last paragraph but I guess I did a bad job of making it sarcastic. Guns for life, long live the NRA

and

From my cold dead hands!

ILC