Any recommendations for a gaming notebook computer?

[lost1]

Here's a suggestion when buying a gaming notebook-
I have a Toshiba Satellite with a K62-450, 96Mb RAM, 4.3GB HDD, 56K modem, and ATI Rage Pro LT graphics. The machine will run Half-Life, Soldier of Fortune, 3D Mark 2000, and other graphics intensive programs quite well, but the limiting factor is the display screen. I have the 12.1 inch dual-scan screen, which is excellent for 95% of what a laptop is used for. But when gaming, it is very blurry- to the point of being difficult to use. So I would recommend getting a TFT screen- which is supposed to be a much sharper (and quicker reacting) type of display. It will add about $100 to the price of the machine when compared to a dual-scan type, but if gaming is a factor, then it's easily worth it.
Good luck! http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

[Dputiger]

Slight suggestion of my own: If your friend really intends to game on this laptop, pick up a keyboard/mouse combo at a minimum.

Personally I'd spring for a monitor as well but if he's going to be VERY mobile that won't work. But you'll find gaming much easier with a keyboard and mouse. Plus the mouse, at least, only takes up a little room in a case.

[smokin1]

Interesting...I always equated laptop gaming machine as an oxymoron..the screen is such a holdback...
http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/frown.gif

[Warthog]

That's what I was going to say, smokin! http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

Anyway, I'd think you would want more memory than 64mb if possible. After all, it's not like you can fit a Geforce 32mb in there to even things out.

As far as Dell's tech support being lacking...no way in hell http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif. There tech support is top notch in my experience.

But don't let that fool you. MANY members at Sysopt have stated that (for some odd reason) Dell's notebooks suck. Get a Toshiba. I did, after many recommendations from fellow members. It is the best.

As for what Dputiger said - I also agree. Get an Intellimouse Explorer. It has a sensor that works on any surface (just not reflectable or transparent) and is USB, so you can unplug it when the comp is on. Very handy with a notebook, if you ask me.

Warthog

[wchang99]

I'm shopping for a friend, who moves around a lot and wants to do web surfing, some basic 3D gaming (Opengl as well as D3D), maybe some MS Word every now and then. Most likely, it will be along the lines of 64MB RAM, 500mhz celeron or 600mhz P3, 6 gig HD, a 14" XGA screen. As far as video goes though, what's good in notebooks these days? Dell has an ATI Mobility 8 MB M-1 in their Inspiron 3800 series, and an ATI Mobility 8 MB P in their Inspiron 5000 series. Does anyone know the difference between these two, the M and the P? Are they the same thing as the Mobility 128, which I understand is based on the Rage 128 chipset?

There are actually a few people on CNET's user review boards who report Quake 3 and UT running smoothly on these systems...which really made me raise an eyebrow, but if it's true then it would be just fine by me. But on the same boards there are lots of people complaining about Dell's support being unreliable and indifferent. Has anyone had any bad experiences with Dell lately? The prices for those Dell systems are good though - about $2000 for the celery and $2200 for the P3, for the same specs in either the 3800 or the 5000 series. Seems the higher end 3800's and the lower end 5000's are essentially the same, just a matter of product differentiation, styling, etc...Maybe go with the 5000 as it might have better build quality, better speakers, etc?

Or should I look somewhere else entirely? Really, all it needs to be is a decent basic computer, for personal use, but without silly quality compromises or limitations that would make it impossible to play games on it. Price definitely matters, I'll get the cheapest good one I can find, but those Compuserve rebates at CompUSA, Bestbuy etc are out of the question because she will be using it overseas.

Thanks as always, for any suggestions!

[wchang99]

Wow, I hadn't really thought about the screen. Is pixel scaling the main problem? Is it hard to run games at the screen's native resolution (ie above 640x480) with the kind of graphics hardware in the notebooks? ATI has a filtering scheme in the Mobility 128, apparently it's similar to bilinear, for the pixel scaling jaggies, it sounds like it would be kind of blurry. In any case, I'll certainly try to get a TFT. Do they respond fast enough for games?

I'll most definitely get the extra keyboard and mouse, seems like a good investment. And I will look at Toshiba. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

Is the ATI Mobility 128 common in notebooks? It seems to me the best choice right now, but I haven't really come across it - the ATI Mobility M1, or the Mobility P, yes, but not the 128. I realize the Geforce2 MX is just around the corner, but not sure if I'll be able to wait for it.

Thanks for the help, everyone!! http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[Dputiger]

As far as I know, ATI is the only card manufacturer who makes 3D accelerators for laptops. You might also look at going for a 14.1" viewable screen instead of a 12.1". If he doesn't want to spring for a monitor, that extra 2" viewable would be a nice option.

And I agree: Toshiba's are good equipment.

[wyvrn]

But back to the 3d gaming, are laptops able to handle it? My only experience is with a Compaq 1247 (lower end with 4 mb shared memory). The screen during games sucks. I want a notebook also, trading in my desktops, and I want it for programming, internet, and gaming. Thanks.

[Dputiger]

Theoretically, yes, they can handle it, but the best laptop rig I've seen only had 8 Meg of video memory. You might squeeze Half-Life out of that if you've got a fast processor and tons of standard RAM, but I wouldn't go for Q3A or UT.

Basically, if you've got a good screen and non-FPS games I think a laptop can work for gaming.

[wyvrn]

The specific games I am looking at are Warcraft III, Starcraft II, and Diablo II maybe.

[lost1]

wchang99-
Here's the story on screens, as I understand it. The DS-type (dual-scan) is an LCD screen. When a pixel receives a signal, it rotates into a position so that you can see it. Enough pixels do this, and it forms a picture. Then, as the screen changes, they rotate in and out of the viewable position and the picture changes or disappears. This accounts for the blurriness- as the screen itself is somewhat slow in its operation.
TFT screens use transistors to turn each pixel on and off- kinda like a lightbulb. They therefore react much faster, as nothing is having to move for you to see it.
This is no doubt a simplistic explanation of screen types, and if anyone can offer a more accurate or detailed explanation, feel free to do so http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif
I think most dual scan types are limited to a resolution of 600x800, and many of the TFT types I have seen allow 1024x768. This may come in handy for gaming, assuming the graphics controller in the notebook can drive a resolution of that depth without getting too jerky.
Good luck! http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/biggrin.gif

[Dputiger]

In that case that ATI rig will probably work--but go with TFT over DS.

[wchang99]

Thanks again for the info, everyone. And, lost1, thanks for explaining screens to me; it made it very understandable. Certainly I know I should get a TFT screen for this gaming rig, there will be no way around it. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

I checked out Toshiba's Satellite and Satellite Pro lines...and here's what I found out. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif Some of the lower end models have the 4MB Ati Rage Pro LT, and some of the higher end models have an 8MB S3 Savage #153 IX (which I took to be based on their -- don't remember the chipset name, but it was recent). Some, but not all do. The others have one of the usual non-3D graphics chips. Wyvrn, you said that you were thinking of getting a gaming notebook too; one of the Toshibas that struck me as being good was the Satellite 2755DVD, $1700, P3-600, 64MB, 6GB, S3 Savage IX, 8x DVD...The main drawback is that 12" is the largest screen available, though it's a TFT. For larger screens, with Toshiba it seems you have to pay slightly more and sacrifice a little on some of the other components, such as a weaker cpu, or pay quite a bit more and get good components all around. On the flip side, there are also a few cheaper models with the ATI Rage Pro LT if you don't think you'll need the Savage. The Satellite 1625CDT is $1200, AMD K6-2 475, 64 MB, 4.3 GB, 12" TFT screen, 4MB ATI Rage Pro LT - looks quite good for the money. It feels like I'm doing an ad for Toshiba. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

I e-mailed Dell and ATI about the ATI Mobility 128 chip, and Dell said they don't currently have it in any of their machines and haven't yet decided on it for their next release. ATI said that the Mobility M and Mobility P aren't the Mobility 128, they're an earlier chipset, which I'd guess is the Ati Rage Pro. I've included ATI's email.

Wyvrn, as to the games you mentioned, I haven't been keeping up with games enough so I don't know how 3D intensive they are, but I do know Starcraft and Warcraft (the originals) didn't require 3D, they were sprite based. Don't know if that's still true of the new ones though. Otherwise, though, you might not need that much 3D horsepower in your notebook. It might be more a matter of getting a good screen (eg, a TFT) and playing in the screen's native resolution. Maybe someone else is better informed and can add something to this?

Thanks again...

W Chang

--
W Chang,

The RAGE Mobility 128 chipset has been announced http://www.ati.com/na/pages/corporate/press/1999/4243.html and integrates
8MB of memory and expandable externally to 16MB. This accelerator chipset
offers advanced 2D and 3D performance and is ideal for high end notebooks.

The RAGE Mobility M1 chipset integrates 8MB SDRAM and is ideal for small
form factor, high performance notebooks.

The RAGE Mobility P chipset offers up to 8MB of SGRAM or SDRAM memory
externally.

The RAGE Mobility M chipset integrated 4MB SDRAM memory and has optional
external 4MB SDRAM and is ideal for mainstream notebooks.

Notebook manufacturers integrate the ATI chipsets in their product design.
Specific OEMs reserve the right to include modifications of ATI's product
line (hardware and software) based on their requirements. OEMs may choose to
ship a specific ATI Driver that only supports that specific system OS.
Please consult with the notebook manufacturer for information, as well as
for specifications, features, drivers, and/or memory upgrades (if
applicable).

The RAGE Mobility 128, M1, P, and M accelerator chipsets for notebooks are
shipping and the following manufacturers http://www.ati.com/na/pages/onboard/index.html have chosen them for use in
their notebooks.

> Should you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Richard Oh
> ATI Sales Support
> 33 Commerce Valley Drive East, Thornhill ON L3T 7N6
> Telephone (905) 882-2600 Option 4, Fax (905) 882-2620
> Email: sales@ati.com
> Check out our web site http://www.ati.com
>
-----Original Message-----
From: W Chang [mailto:wchang99@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 6:16 PM
To: ATI Sales Support
Subject: Notebooks containing Mobility 128?


Do you have information as to which notebook computers use specifically the
Mobility 128 chipset, as opposed to earlier versions such as Mobility M1 and
P?

I'm searching for a mid-priced gaming-capable notebook but they are few and
far between. If I do run across any, they're either using the ATI Rage Pro
LT (Toshiba) or the Mobility M1/P (Dell 3800/5000); I'm really looking for
something that will still be good in a few years.

What chipsets are the Mobility M1 and Mobility P based around? What is the
difference between the M1 and the P, if in fact they are the same chipset?

Thanks for your time!

W Chang

[wyvrn]

Wow wchang99 that is exactly the model I was planning on getting, the Toshiba 2755DVD. You cannot order these online yet, they are special addition, but I know a guy at my local CompUSA and he his holding one back for me http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif The ONLY drawback to this machine is the screen size, 2" is significant in a notebook. However, I will mainly be using my monitor at home for gaming anyway. Besides, most other brand notebooks with nice screens skimp FIRST on video memory and also on the processor. I believe that having a 25% faster processor and more video memory will allow me to keep this notebook longer, and as I said the screen size can be gotten around. My friend bought a new Sony notebook that had a nice screen, but only 4MB of vid memory and it was a PIII 450, 150 Mhz slower than the Toshiba I am interested in. He also paid $2300 for his. Too bad he has had his machine for more than 30 days, because now he wants to get the Toshiba instead http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

You seem to be leaning toward the ATI chipset, but you said "there are also a few cheaper models with the ATI Rage Pro LT if you don't think you'll need the Savage". Is this implying the Savage is a better chipset? I am not really up on the quality of notebook video chipsets.

Warcraft III will not use sprites, it will be a full on 3D gaming format. The character models are being done in a unique way. Instead of taking several shots of a character while they are walking, etc, the designers drew a "skeleton", which will be the basis of several of the units. The 3D engine then dynamically draws the rest of the unit as it walks, attacks, whatever. Blizzard claims this saves a lot of memory because they do not have to load a lot of character profile shots into memory, and it should make the action smoother. I am thinking that 8MB of vid memory may be good enough to play this at low resolutions.

[wchang99]

Hey wyvrn, you caught me, as far as the Savage being better than the ATI Rage Pro is concerned I was just going by assumption before, because I knew the Rage Pro first appeared in desktops maybe 3 years ago...so I thought the Savage HAD to be better. It turns out it's true though; on S3's website they have the specs for the MX, and it's 125 trilinear mpixels/sec and 32-bit color rendering, which is way better than the Rage Pro, which was probably somewhere around 50 mpixels/sec, no 32-bit color. While this is the MX not the IX, the IX is supposedly based on the same architecture. One difference between the two is that the IX is 64-bit while the MX is 128 bit, which if I understand it right would make the IX slower mostly just in higher resolutions and color depths (32 bits). As to whether there are any other differences, well S3's site was pretty unclear about that. So I emailed them...I'll keep you posted here if they get back to me.

Here's the url for the Savage MX/IX...the specs are at the "overview" and the "datasheet" links: http://www.s3chips.com/default.asp?menu=mobilesavage&sub_menu=

Anyway though either Savage should be better than the Rage Pro. As for the ATI Mobility M1/P, which isn't in the Toshiba but which a couple other companies use, I'm still trying to figure that one out. Supposedly it's a newer architecture than the Rage Pro, but older than the Mobility 128 (which is based on the Rage 128). And as far as the Mobility 128 goes, it would be great (210 mpixels/s, faster than the Savage) but I haven't found any notebooks that actually use it yet...a review of the Mobility 128 at Anand's if you're interested: http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1198&p=1

The best would have to be the Geforce2 MX, but it's only speculation if it will ever come out in notebooks. It can happen though, because it draws very little power compared to other recent chipsets, making it appropriate for notebooks.

A funny thing happened, I was at CompUSA today and a guy noticed me checking out the Toshiba and came forward, turns out he works for Toshiba and was wondering if I had any questions he could answer. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif He wasn't sure about the Savage IX vs MX thing but said that he has one of the 2755DVD's and plays Unreal and Q3A on it, and that it's no problem at all. He even offered to install them and show them to me (he had the cd's with him in his backpack) - unfortunately I couldn't take him up b/c I had to be somewhere by then. Maybe a little stupid on my part. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[wyvrn]

Aww man those demos would have been sweet. Well I am posting on my new laptop, and it is a sweet one. Going to rent a DVD tomorrow and use the vid out to my TV. Played Starcraft on Battlenet today and all ran smoothly. Going to try and borrow my friends Diablo II cd tomorrow and see how the 3D comes out. He has to stay in 2D mode with his http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

A GeForce card in a laptop would be the ultimate in sweet gaming.

[wchang99]

Let me know how Diablo II turns out, and also if you try any other 3D intensive games too...I'd be really interested. Have fun. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[wyvrn]

Well I have not had a chance to install Diablo II, school is keeping me busy. But soon. Tried NBA Live 2000, which I had lying around. It uses Direct X, minimum 4 meg memory but recommends 8MB. The game ran smoothly at 800x600, with the only slowdowns caused by my cdrom reading the disc. All in all, I think the Savage chipset performed well. Diablo II soon, stay tuned...

[wyvrn]

I decided against purchasing Diablo II until Blizzard can get the issues with the battlenet servers worked out. Waiting an hour for a game does not sound appealing. I did run 3dmark on the laptop card and this is the score
http://www.geocities.com/redrob25/laptop_page.html?964712006460

I have run some other games, such as Microsoft Baseball 2001, Sammy Sosa High Heat Baseball, and Need for Speed Porsche Unlimited.

[wchang99]

Thanks for getting back to me. You're right, waiting an hour to get in on a game is a little ridiculous, hopefully Blizzard will get their act together. I haven't played MS Baseball or Sammy Sosa High Heat Baseball yet, but I know that NBA Live 2000 and NFS Porsche Unlimited are fairly demanding - I can't even run NBA Live 2000 on my desktop at a halfway decent framerate without turning everything down to minimal, and that's _ugly_, and NFS PU is okay for me but only at 640x480. If the Toshiba can run those games, that's pretty good. It should actually be more than enough for my friend's gaming needs. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

Thanks for posting the 3DMarks score on your webpage too (you should upload it to madonion.com, have you?). 1120 doesn't sound too shabby at all. It's not as high as the scores for the leading edge desktops of course, but it still sounds quite solid, better than my trusty gaming desktop in fact. Well, I think I'm going to tell my friend to get this. Thanks for keeping me up to date. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[wyvrn]

Heh I ran the benchmark again and got an 1127. I had forgotten to turn off my modem the last time around, and had a couple of web pages open at the same time. I uploaded that one to madonion, but I have had a hard time using compare. The server seems to be dead. However, this looks like a great bang for your buck laptop when you compare feature to feature with some of the more expensive ones.