HELP: Problem with a bad trade!!! Need Advice...

[glendor]

UPDATE: Problem resolved by Zack refunding my money.

I'll not give a name, but I have a possible bad deal going down with a trader on this board, and I would like to ask what the proper resolution to this problem would be.

I purchased a selection of software he was selling, and paid him through PayP@l. When I asked specifically if the software would arrive by the following weekend (for my daughter's birthday), he assured me it would. It didn't.

Here is how it went down:
8/7/00: PayP@led him $$ and asked for a traking number. I did not specify shipping method, only asked that it arrive within 5 days.
8/8/00: He shipped, and send me a USPS tracking number, but the number didn't work at the USPS tracking site.
8/17/00: (weekend deadline came and went) I wrote saying it had been 9 days and still no package. I asked him to double-check the number, and shipping agent. He wrote back saying he couldn't get the number to work either, but all the other packages sent out on that day arrived where they should. I told him I would wait till 8/21/00 and see if it would arrive, but if it didn't I would need replacement software or a refund to my PayP@l account.
8/21/00: Still no package. I asked him how he wanted to handle this, and he offered to send me the insured mail reciept so I could file a claim with the Post Office. I wrote him back and said I didn't want to do that because it is a pain-in-the-****, and very slow. I told him he should file the claim because it is the responsibility of the seller to deliver the merchandise, not the buyer. He disagreed, and wrote me this last night:
"You did not buy an insurance form at all, I bought one as a courtosy to you.
and the zip was 77449. In a situation like this, it is the responsibility
of the person who chose the shipping method, so by that standard, I could
simply rip up the recept, because by that, I never bought it. Now, as I
said earlier, the recipiant must fill out the form. Upon completion, you
give it to them, and it ends up with me. From there it is my headache to
bring it back down to the post office, argue with the people there, convince
them that I did in fact ship it, and all of that. But if you want to go by
the rules, I will throw away the shipping and insurance recepts, save myself
a lot of hassle, and ive you everything that you payed for, and nothing
more. I am trying to be helpfull, I don't have to be, and if you refuse to
deal with the post office, then YOU refuse to get the insurance money."

Unless the buyer refuses insurance, isn't it the seller's responsibility to guarantee delivery??? I told him I didn't buy an 'insurance claim to take to the Post Office' I bought software, that didn't arrive. Is it unreasonable to request a refund in this situation? I even offered him the option of providing a replacement software package. He said he got burned by making a refund once, when the package actually arrived. I don't think I should be penalized because some other guy screwed him. I held up my end of the bargin by paying promptly.

What do the rest of you think???

Help,
Glendor...

[This message has been edited by glendor (edited 08-22-2000).]

[This message has been edited by glendor (edited 08-27-2000).]

[Gutter Ball]

Yikes! That's why I always demand insured/registered shipping and I always have to pay for it. Not very many sellers are willing to pay for insurance :/ It protects the buyer and the seller, don't see why anyone won't pay the few extra $$$'s. He said he got burned on a refund? I highly doubt that. If it was sent UPS, all he had to do was check the number to see if it arrived!! Sorry Glendor, if you didn't request insured shipping, then he could have very well ripped you off and claimed that he sent it :/

[blade_146]

I agree. It doesn't cost that much extra to insure it and if he is a trader with any standards at all he would have included the insurance anyway. I think we need a name so that in the future this loser can't screw anyone else. If your selling something you owe it to yourself and your CUSTOMER to include insurance and make sure it gets there. If it doesn't get there then it is the responsiblity of the seller to find out why. Case closed!! Who is this masked man???

[jjsole]

The product is yours UPON delivery. It is to your benefit to request insurance because it minimizes hassles, but if he buys it, its his claim with the shipper (I doubt the usps would reimburse a 3rd party even if you tried). Insurance benefits the shipper more than the purchaser because until its delivered to you, it still belongs to the owner (its not 'transfered' just because it left his door), whether or not you cover the costs for him.

If you arranged with a delivery service to pick it up from him and ship it, that's different - that would be between you and your shipper - but this is NOT the case. Whether or not you requested USPS as a shipping method, HE used them for shipping, and they have a responsibility to him, not you - and its his responsibility to file a claim (if he did ship it at all...)

jj

[glendor]

Here is a link to more comments regarding this transactions.
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=45&threadid=219772

Glendor...

[kru]

http://new.usps.com/pdf/ps8165.pdf

'nuff said

[daveleau]

I am very sorry to hear this. I usually do not insure my packages when I trade unless it is a substantial amount of money. I would cover the receiver if anything like what has happened to you happened to me. I am sorry to hear about it. I was able to reason (with threats of prosecution) with my recent trading dilemma. I hope the same works for you. You have begun properly. Don't give up, he will fold. And this is not common for this board. We have or own "Roger" of sorts here as well, though. I see this mainly at Anand to be honest. AGNers (former) and Sysoptians are usually not found to be trolls.
Best of luck
Dave

[Mntsnow]

Thanks for that posting Dave. Glendor please feel free to contact me. I like to troll hunt personally. Trolls normally do not stay here long as we will not allow them to!. I'm sorry to see that someone has taken advantage of your trust. I didnt see which thread this is in-regards to so please contact me.

Trolls beware...

[This message has been edited by Mntsnow (edited 08-23-2000).]

[jjsole]

Thanks for the info...

but what's this about?

"I agree, I shouldn't have ventured out of the safety of Anands..."

This is not the norm. Give us some love! http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by jjsole (edited 08-22-2000).]

[gradius]

Glendor - check your mail. I think I figured out what's going on here.

[gradius]

My suspicions are confirmed now. I know exactly who this is. He tried the same thing on me, but I just gave up dealing with him.

What amazed me most is that he is a respected member here. YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'VE DONE WRONG! Fess up.

Glendor - need any help? I'm here

[glendor]

Thanks for the support Gradius, and yes, we are dealing with the same person, and yes again, this is an "ultimate member" on this forum, and I thought it was safe to do business with this person. I will ONLY publicly divulge his name if he doesn't work this out with me. If you have been burned by someone, and think it might be this person, email me at monrocm@texaco.com with the name, and I'll let you know if you are another victom like myself and Gradius.

JJSole, I normaly use Anandtech Forums for my buy/sell/trade stuff because there is a great guy over there named Roger (affectionately known as the "Troll Hunter") who watches out for us by mediating trading disputes. He also has the legal know-how to get charges pressed in extremem cases. He has "resolved" MANY problems, and Anands is a better Forum because of him. He successfully mediated a problem I had many months ago, and was able to "convience" a certain Troll to mail me a video card I had traded for. Without Roger, I have absolutely no doubt that I would have never seen that card.

[This message has been edited by glendor (edited 08-22-2000).]

[This message has been edited by glendor (edited 08-22-2000).]

[barry glisson]

up keep us posted.I hope it is just a simple mistake.

[Snuffy!]

Just curious, why do you call them "Trolls"?

[glendor]

Yes, Barry, I hope it is simple mistake too. Due to the nature of the deals we make here, and on other boards, there is required a certain amount of Trust by both parties. Consequently, over the years, certain 'common sense' unwritten (or in some places written) rules regarding forum deals have come about. The one that seems to have fallen through the crack here is that the seller is responsable for making sure the package makes it to the buyer.
The Buyer: responsible for making payment, and receiving what he paid for.
The Seller: responsible for receiving payment, and delivering what the buyer paid for.
Tracking numbers protect both parties: there is proof that something was sent, and that it arrived. Insurance protects the seller, who is ultimately responsible for the package till the buyer receives it.

I only want my $54 refunded so I can purchase replacement birthday presents for the items that didn't arrive two weeks ago for my daughter's birthday. I've given my personal promise that if the package does eventually arrive, that I will send the agreed upon payment again. I think this is reasonable, don't you?

Snuffy!, I don't know exactly where the term "Troll" became associated with bad traders, but that has become the common term for traders who don't uphold there end of the bargin.

[barry glisson]

I think the term troll comes from nursery rhymes. They lived under bridges and grabed unsuspecting travelers and robbed them. If thats wrong at least it gives a bump lol barry

[codybear]

Glendor YHM

[glendor]

It appears that the only way I'm going to get my refund is by waiting till the U.S. Post Office makes good on the insurance claim. I find this highly inconvienient, and not a good business practice. I hope we all can learn from this. Don't ask (like I did) for tracking, DEMAND IT!!!

[barry glisson]

If he doesn't want to do the right thing post his name it will save some of us future grief. barry

[socalgal]

.

[This message has been edited by socalgal (edited 08-26-2000).]

[Joel Kleppinger]

This bites.
This really, really bites.

The unnamed problem child here is KillerBug/cobain1crt (2 nicks, 1 guy). He's been around for a while and flirted with getting kicked off more than once... with both nicks. While he has a lot of posts, he DEFINITELY doesn't have a lot of respect... at least from the staff and long-standing members of SysOpt.

He's always been into the piracy scene and loves passing links. Eventually we got him out of it publicly, but it seems he's kept it going privately.

As near as I can tell, what people WILL BUY when they buy software from him are NOT necessarily original OEM/retail CDs, but instead CDRs/RWs of those disks. Think my suspicions are way off base? You be the judge: http://www.geocities.com/killabacks/

This is the proverbial straw that broke the proverbial camel's back. So now, we've disabled KillerBug and cobain's account and will be looking for KB/cobain-like posts here on the future. Is this too long in coming? Perhaps so. But at least it did come... better late than never.

So I implore you... if you consider a deal with a KillerBug, cobain1crt, Kurt Cobain, a Zack Hummel, a Zack Cobain, or a Zack Kummer from Tampa Bay, Florida, CONSIDER YOURSELF WARNED.

Zack, we don't take kindly to people getting ripped off, and we don't care how many posts you have or you think you have. This AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN HERE! Got that?

Oh, and it's not necessarily a permanent ban... if you manage to get everyone who is currently POed with you relatively satisfied, we will consider re-enabling your account. It's high time you took a hard look at yourself, your ethics, your capabilities, your spelling, your mouth, and your life, and you discovered the truth of how the world works and how to be respected in it and through it.

Magic 8-Ball and the Elf brought some other-worldly wisdom to you over a year ago which it seems you missed the first time through. So I think you should go back and read their words again: http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000890.html

I think this sums it up: A good reputation is better to be desired than great riches. Unfortunately, a good rep is harder to come by than some dough. Your work is cut out for you.

[This message has been edited by Joel Kleppinger (edited 08-26-2000).]

[d2346sdfga]

Since the guy I am trading with does not seem to be updating unless when he warps the facts, I am posting this of a name you can kill right awy, thats right, I am killerbug/cobain (and I changed my name not to avoid bad trades or anything, but because I stopped listening to nirvana!) and I just want to set the record strait before I go.

1.) that warez link does not seem to have any homepage, links, nothing, it looks more like a graphics dump than a warez site.

2.) I only sell real software, and I only sell orriginals. In addition, the only copies I make are for my own use so if I screw one up, I still have the orriginal.

3.) The post office has not yet declaired it lost, and has said that it may be delivered late any time within 30 days. Therfor, I do not declair it lost untill 30 days.

4.) an new quote for you...**** YOU - Zack De La Rocha (RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE)

[gradius]

Ok, I can't believe Killerbug: Zack Kummer. LISTEN UP PAL

This is the situation with him and I:

He sold me an 8.4GB IBM drive for $30. I couldn't pass up the deal, so I decided to get it. He told me the only problem with the drive was it had a bad sector on it. He promised the drive worked. I agreed it was ok, but he said he would insure it "for alot more" because he "knew how the post office can be". Hmmm, once I got the hard drive in, the thing didn't work (wow, big suprise). It was dead as a doornail. As soon as I told him, he sent me my money back via paypal, and IMMEDIATELY wanted me to file the $185 of insurance he put on this $30 drive. I waited a few days to write back because I couldn't believe that he wanted me to believe that the drive was worth $185! He never worried about the drive or wanting it back. As soon as I told him it didn't work, he told me to file.

I told him I needed all the reciepts, insurance slips, etc. to file (which I did) but I haven't even made one move to file the claim, mostly because I know the drive never worked in the first place. He printed out some fake invoice from Word or something, that showed the drive was worth $185 and cost $20 to ship. WHAT?! How many of you would pay $185 for a 8.4GB drive?

Now he's e-mailing me wondering WHY I'M BAD-MOUTHING him?! I haven't even begun. I should try to report you for mail insurance fraud you troll.

[This message has been edited by gradius (edited 08-27-2000).]

[d2346sdfga]

That was an OEM official replacement part, they are pricy, I sold it for $30 because I didn't need it and people here would not pay the OEM replacement part price, but the price I insured it for was what it was worth, don't belive me? Try and get IBM ram specificaly sold for the PS/2 as replacement parts!

[d2346sdfga]

Oh, and by the way, why did you never say anything about not believing me so I could try to explain the facts into your empty skull?

[chipbgt]

Killerbug,

You have still not addressed the issue at hand. You are responsible for making sure an item reaches the recipient, it is not the job of the recipeint to have to track it down. If you bought something from Amazon or Buy.com,, and your package never arrived, do you think they will say "well hwere are the reciepts, you go find it." Of course not!

Despite the fact that no one will ever deal with you again, its still your duty to make good on this deal that you have already started. It may not be your fault that it was lost, but be a man and follow through on filing the claim, and get glendor what he asked for.

[gradius]

I won't even begin to punch holes into your half-a$$ed explanation.
You've tried to con 2 people here (and probably more) at SysOpt and can't admit to it. I don't care how this turns out. As long as Glendor gets his cash or software back, and everyone knows the scams you are trying to run. You can try to convince yourself as much as you'd like, that you did nothing wrong, but the facts are here Zack.

Please, for once, do the right thing and make good on the deal with Glendor. He's a great trader here at SysOpt, and he (or anyone) doesn't deserve this

[This message has been edited by gradius (edited 08-27-2000).]

[TaylorD]

I hope you get this resolved Glendor.

It appears that my troll has gotten away and I am an the midst of dealing with another one.

I am like a troll magnet!

[d2346sdfga]

No, but they would say, "How do we know you never got it when the delivery service has not declaired it lost?" I don't know why TOlkin Boy is not posting, but 2 facts remain:

1.) I got ****ed the last time I did a refund without waiting for the USPS to get forms.
2.) USPS has not declaired the package lost.

[socalgal]

Be advised:

Know that I will be keeping my eyes open for you, Zack. Doesn't matter what User Name/email you go under.

If I find you trying to make another transaction in this forum, I will expose you.


[This message has been edited by socalgal (edited 08-27-2000).]

[d2346sdfga]

I am not trying to make a transaction on the forum, I am leaving here once everything is sorted out, but for now I just want to sort everything out before I leave this place.

[d2346sdfga]

Bad trades assosiated with me:
1.) This one, summary: I sell him software, for which he pays. He claims it is lost before USPS says that it is lost, and demands his money back, I want to wait incase USPS delivers late, he gets pissed and posts this thread.

2.) I sell 91eagletalon@home.com a 366mhz celeron, when it gets there, there is phisical damage and it does not work. I send him a scsi raid controler that is worth more and he pays the difference, agreeing to file the insurance form. Now that I find out that I have to file insurance forms, I cannot contact him. If he had tried to file the form, by the way, something would have happened about a month ago.

3.) i sell Gradious a hard drive, it gets busted in the mail, I give him a refund, he says that he will file the insurance, and that he needs the insurance stuff. I send him the insurance stuff and do not hear from him for a month untill he bad mouths me about the deal. I request the insurance stuff back, and explain my possition, and he threatens me with mail fraud charges!!!

Based on the last 2, why should I even belive that he never got the package? And why should I give him a refund before waiting to see if it gets delivered when every other time I have done it, I have gotten screwed? If you are a good trader, sorry, I though that gradius was a good trader too, but he screwed me over when I tried to speed up his refund by going on trust. When 30 days are up, or one of those people do anything close to waht they claim they were going to do a month or 2 ago, or you get something in writing sent to me from the USPS saying that the package was in fact lost, not just delayed, or something else that would void my fears, I will give you a prompt paypal with $54 on it, untill then, why should I give you a refund when I have a very real chance of getting screwed, like always.

[d2346sdfga]

Or this: I give him a refund today, the admins promise to do as intensive an invertigation of him as they did of me on the 31st day, and if he is lying, then he has to refund the money pronto, at least I can trust the administrators a little.

[d2346sdfga]

Ok, noone will follow up on it in case I get ripped off, and I am still being blamed for ripping of the people I gave refunds to and the USPS, (how, i do not know). From the 3 here it may sound like I am scaming the USPS, but remember, I have done a lot of trades, geting stuff crunched in the mail once out of 12 to 15 times you ship is not too uncomon, and for these 3 trades I have done at least 50 more with happy peoples. I am giving him a refund because this sh** is not worth $54, but if he turns out to be lying, I will be back.

[This message has been edited by socalgal (edited 08-27-2000).]

[Joel Kleppinger]

KillerBug,

When the people who have issues against you come away from the situation satisfied, then we as admins will be satisfied. However, we aren't going to try to mediate between you and those who have complaints with you.

[TOAD6147]

So, has this guy (the TROLL at hand) ever done a righteous deal with anyone here? I haven't heard anyone chime in how wonderful it's been to trade with this guy. But as a relatively new member I want to be fair. It sounds suspicious that he has changed his handle so many times and his bad rep has followed where ever he seems to land. It seems suspicious that every trade he's attempted here involves some kind of insurance claim right out of the chute. And he can cry about being slammed by the guys he's traded with but like I tell my kids, once you've established a reputation with a group of people it's hard to over come that negative tag. And the Golden Rule teaches us to "DO unto others ..." So to be a righteous trader you have to always go the extra mile. If you don't want to be ripped then you have to do the right thing when someone feels they are being ripped or just don't deal! The only thing we have to govern our dealings here with each other is trust and proper and TIMELY resolution even if you have to take it on the chin. Of course there's always going to be the constant head-banging by Joel and SOCALGAL. If you do the right thing you will respect yourself and others will respect you and will look forward to trading with you. It boils down to reputation and proper resolution. Now, please turn to hymn............(:> ) But in all seriousness, d2346sdfga, if you can't trade and resolve disputes the way the majority of the members here want and insist on then simply leave and don't let the friggin' door hit you on the way out! And don't cry that others are slamming you and passing along your rep.

[This message has been edited by TOAD6147 (edited 08-27-2000).]

[chipbgt]

Maybe you will learn to ship with a company that has better tracking capabilities?

[glendor]

Okay, here is the deal. Zack refunded my $54 and I'm satisfied with that. He owes me nothing, and if he decides to file the insurance claim, I will do my part and sign the paperwork. Now I can go about seeking replacment software for a daughter's birthday.
Zack, I NEVER accused you of being a troll. In one post I said "I hope we are not dealing with a serial-troll..." I had hoped that you would do the right thing and refund my money, which you did. I also told you in an Email that if the software did arrive, I would re-send you the money, and I will. I also stated that I have a spotless history on SysOpt and Anands, and I don't rip people off, for any reason. I hope you don't continue with this "I think you are lying about it not arriving" attitude.

Here is a little background on some of my transactions: When a shipment to Hawaii accidently went surface instead of air, I sent a $50 'I'm sorry for the inconvience' payment. When I sold two video cards and told the buyers that I would burn the drivers and utilities onto CDs for them, and my burner quit on me, I sent them compensations gifts that valued over $20 each. I have ALlWAYS gone out of my way to make the transaction a pleasure for the buyer.

Customer satisfaction really means something for me, and I think everybody should be treated that way. I consider this issue closed, unless the package arrives, and I've already stated how that will be handled.

"Thank You" to everybody who supported me in this problem. I hope it has opened the eyes of all people who trade here as to how important Tracking Numbers and Insurance are when dealing with people who you don't really know.

Zack, I can't help but think that if you had just purchased the tracking numbers like I suggested, none of this would have happened.

Sincerely, Glendor...

[d2346sdfga]

I changed me name once for reasons I explained earlier, and am using this one because when the thread was posted they canceled my other name. Right from the start I said that when I knew it was lost, I would send money back, since all of you seemed to get all stressed about that, I sent the money back early, my only request now is that I get back what i need from gradious to file the insurance, as he will not answer his email.

[gradius]

You give me proff that the drive worked before you sent it to me, and I will be glad to send you all the insurnace info. What bugs me is that, you could have EASILY, sent me a bad drive and are now trying to collect over $180 insurnace money. Zack never asked one time for the drive back, or even questioned if the drive was broken, it was almost like he knew it was and was just waiting for me to tell him... duh! MAYBE BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED ALL ALONG!

You're not getting the papers Zack. I know what you're trying to do. I'll be glad to mail the drive back to you, because it is yours and I'll gotten my money back - we'll be even.

I mean, what is stopping me from sending this bad drive to a friend of mine back home, putting $180 of insurance on it, then have him file an insurance claim b/c the drive is broken?! WOW, what a great idea for a scam... please Zack.

[gradius]

In other words - NO!

Get a job and earn the cash. It's over. Leave it alone.

[barry glisson]

Gradius, bite him bulldog.lol barry

[d2346sdfga]

Fine, he has his money, gradius still owes me my insurance recepts so I can get the ~$80 that the 8gb drive is now worth, and hee threatens me when i ask for them, any sugjestions? Or do you still think it is mail fraud perhapse that I am looking to get $80 out of a $120 drive? (yes, it was orriginaly much more, but it has been 2 months.)

[d2346sdfga]

Oh, and PS, everyone seems to think that I want my user names back, well, I don't, I am tired of the people here acting like they are higher than they are, I am actualy trying to set things right, and I am getting pissed that everything I do gets interprited as trying to rip someone off or trying to unload warez or something, if I wanted to do that I would be on IRC channels, where you can enter 123 as every personal ID thing and then never get tracked, I am here because I am an honest dealer, but with this many lying traders, I would much rather be on an unsensored IRC channel. Bye.

[d2346sdfga]

Prove it? How should I do that? Any ideas? This is America, inocent untill PROVEN guilty. So if you have no proof of wrong doing, and you can think of no way for me to prove myself guilty or innocent, what do you want?

[This message has been edited by d2346sdfga (edited 08-29-2000).]

[d2346sdfga]

Becides, what would you have said if I told Tolkin boy "Get over it, get a job and earn the money"

[glendor]

Hmmm... Am I 'Tolkin Boy'?

[d2346sdfga]

Hehe, ya, I asumed that is where you got your name. Can some admin get on this A*s hole? you revoked my name after saying I wanted to wait a few days, he flat out said that he would not give me peices of paper because he had a gut feeling that I might be trying to rip someone off, and therfor, I should just go out and get another $80. This after claiming that he needed the papers to file the claim and never emailing me to say that he was suspicious. I no longer belive that the drive is broken. If it was infact broken, he would not be doing everything in hs power to keep the USPS from investigating the case. I would not be surprised if he is using it right now with petty attempts to keep the USPS out of the matter with impossible requests like, "proove it worked before you sent it," when he will belive nothing I say. The recept, by the way, was printed out of Photoshop, as I take screenshots of the screens with the order information on them and save them to JPG files. I just want the recepts back so I can get what is rightfully mine.

[gradius]

GEEZ, YOU JUST WON'T GIVE UP WILL YOU?!

I am mailing the **** drive to you tomorrow at my own expense. Please LEAVE ME ALONE ABOUT THIS! You keep bringing up an issue that should have been over with a long time ago. Quit e-mail stalking me, get a life PLEASE FOR MY SANITY'S SAKE! I'm serious about this too. THis is the last I want to ever hear from you. I'm tried of checking my mail and having your name pop up in my inbox. You were trying to make a quick buck of me and I stopped you. I know it and you know it. You'll have your drive soon, and I'll have my money. It'll be like this never happened, and we (you) can go back to living your happy life. End of story. I'm tried of posting to the board about this.


Quit drinking motor oil smoothies, lay off the cough syrup, and try not too sit too close to the TV. I think you'll find your life much more enriching and less stressful.

[This message has been edited by gradius (edited 08-30-2000).]

[Joel Kleppinger]

<Exasperation>

Look guys, we know neither of you is happy with the current situation. KB, other than the questionable price on insurance, I can't see that there's anything we can fault you with other than defending yourself. I think you've acted pretty admirably getting money back to both of these guys in record time.

And gradius, if you think he's done something wrong, then take it TO THE PROPER AUTHORITIES, not HERE. I think everyone here is tired of seeing this constant drivel between you too.

Killerbug, after you returned the money to glendor, I re-enabled both of your accounts, but neglected to inform you of that. I know you think we've treated you unfairly, but try to view this situation from our side of the monitor. If the integrity of the trades here can't be upheld, then how can people trust enough to trade here (And they certainly ought to be able to)? That would destroy the foundation of the User-to-User forum.

This is the last time these discussions should show up here, unless there is some incredibly new, useful information which hasn't already been tossed into the light. Expect any threads on the subject to be promptly deleted.

The Scepter of Admonition (TM) has been extended. Case closed.