Fishing for HD581, but everyone welcome!

[ILC]

To Hd581:

Youve done it now yankee! http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

What is your alls thoughts on gun control? I think it is SO stupid. I mean come on already 2500o+ (no that isnt a typo, it really is 25000) laws in this country on gun control, more being passed everyday yet crime continues to soar higher and higher! This cracked me up, Rosie Ohdonald, the organizer for the million mom march has recently hired and ARMED guard to gaurd her kindergarten student! What an irony : )

So hd581, did ya take the bait? Have I hooked ya yet?

ILC

P.S. Not trying to start any problems, just an ice little discussion on gun control

[chipbgt]

Forget about gun control, worry more about temper control and we would have no need for gun laws.

[pickel]

Carry a BIG stick and walk SOFTLY. That's my motto. Don't goes NOWHERE without my trusty
North American 22 Mag. Better safe than sorry
There are more people carrying guns illegaly
than those with permits. The ones with permits don't wanna use them but feel the need to protect themselves from those who could care less. There is no gun control. It's up to the person to control the gun not the other way around. No one can tell when standing face to face with an imminent threat
on their life , they wouldn't wish not to have some form of self protection. When the chips are down, you only get one chance and I'm gonna be prepared, FUR SHURE.

the pickel

[Brydon]

It is wierd hearing that you guys can walk about with guns as here in the UK you have to be a Soldier, Police Firearms Officer or a Farmer http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif to have a gun. It would scare me walking down the street in the USA knowing that civilians around you have guns inside there jackets. In the UK there is a case going on about a farmer who killed some people burgling his home and I have to say that I think he had the right to defend his life and home by whatever means were at hand at the time and if that was a gun then so be it. It is a very touchy subject I know but it kinda seems that nowadays if you don't look after your family then who will http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/frown.gif

[ILC]

Yea starting out good already. Brydon did I here that you would be scared? Well you know what, thats exactly what we need, to scare the criminals! You know its funny becuase the few cities that allow law abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons have some of the lowest murder/crime rates in the world! The the tourists in these cities started getting abused instead of the citizens so the peolice decided to find out why the tourists were being targeted, you know what thh funny thing is the criminals said was?? They stopped targetting becuase they dont have a lcue who and who doesnt have a gun in there pocket, where they know the tourists dont have a gun. Hmmm seems like fear/intimidation are the two best weapons against crime in my view : )

ILC

[brandon184]

Here, gun laws are really strict. You can get a gun, but the qualifications/overall process of getting one is a very manotonous procedure.

There are still some farmers who don't think they have to follow the laws, who think they can shoot anyone who is on their property.

Heck, there are people who live in the big cities who think that. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

Anyway, I think gun laws are fine the way they are, but could be modified.

I'd like to be able to carry a gun around with me (for safety purposes!).



[This message has been edited by brandon184 (edited 06-05-2000).]

[Brydon]

If you think fear and intimidation are the best way to deal with crime then go and live in Russia where that is the way they do things or even bring back the Gestapo as that was how things were dealt with. I totally understand what you say about guns being a deterent but is it not better to get to the real root of he problem as in why do people have to rob/kill in the firstplace. I don't think intimidation is the wa to go. I reckon you've opened a can of worms here http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif.

[jad1097]

Yes there are way too many laws concerning guns!

But ya know what they are left laying around everywhere by people who own them! Under the seats of cars, in glove boxes, under pillows and mattresses, under couch pillows, in drawers,in closets,in locked glass cabinets( is that really a safe place to store a weapon?), etc.. No wonder they are easy to steal by thieves. Hell my father use to leave his on top of his dresser.

[narayan]

I voted for a bill to allow the people to carry concealed weapons when it came through a couple years ago. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/biggrin.gif I was disappointed when it did not pass. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/frown.gif We need to start teaching children proper respect and handling of firearms properly from an early age. Teach little Billy not ever to point a gun at someone instead of completely shielding him from firearms. If these kids are not taught by their parents, who do they expect will?


[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 06-05-2000).]

[hd581]

So hd581, did ya take the bait? Have I hooked ya yet?No, I hooked you remember? http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif Well here comes the lone dissenter again. (It's beginning to be my trademark.) I hope I don't shock anyone but: I disagree.

The more of a stranglehold we put on the availability of guns, the more difficult it will be for even criminals to get them. The less criminals w/ guns, the better. jad1097 said: they are left laying around everywhere by people who own them! Under the seats of cars, in glove boxes, under pillows and mattresses, under couch pillows, in drawers,in closets,in locked glass cabinets( is that really a safe place to store a weapon?), etc.. No wonder they are easy to steal by thieves.And the more we make it available to the general public, the more the general public will make it available to criminals. We clamp down strict gun control on everyone and thieves will be using bricks to rob people; painful perhaps but certainly not as lethal.

[BBA]

Well...I say carry a gun at all times.

Sure, some fruitcake will kill an innocent person eventually ( ....that happens everyday anyway...) and an innocent person might kill a criminal also. Sure beats putting a murderer in jail for 40 years ( It could reduce prison overpopulation also...LOL )

If the Gestapo knew every citizen had a gun...they would have been careful as to who they beat...don't you think? ( That fear also keeps governments in line )

Just MY humble opinion!

[Brydon]

Fair point BBA but I hope the innocent person the fruitcake kills aint your kid but even if it is, it happens every day so it wont matter. And if you were the innocent person who killed the murderer then you are in the hands of the court and they have the final say as to who is the innocent party and who is the murderer and we all know justice never prevails all of the time. Man this is a big issue and takes a lot of thinking about and I reckon both sides would have a fair case as to whether to have or not have guns.

[BBA]

I just have to look at the over all big picture...some will win...some will loose (pitty the thought).

Look in sweden...highest gun ownership land there is...and lowest crime rate.

Big picture I say!

[jad1097]

Brydon you are correct in saying this is a big issue. It will always be one too. And are also correct about both side having fair cases. But it is in our constitution for use to have the right right to bear arms, period. No matter how many laws they make it is still there. And they can not alter that.


I do not have a single firearm in my possession and that is for a reason. I know I lack the self control not to shot someone so I choose not to have a firearm in my house and ask people who come to my house to leave them home. But I know myself better than others know themselves.


hd581 you are taking my words and using them out of context. Gun control is not the answer here, education is. The laws we now have are not even enforced and if our government continues to stricken the use of firearms they are in trouble because many will not have it. You would be surprised at the amount of people who have arsenals in their houses. And the good thing about many of these people is that they teach their children to respect weapons, similar to the way I respect electricity. I don't fear it but have a great deal of respect for it being an electrician. Knowing it could be lethal with the tiniest bit of amperage (1/10 of an amp will kill you).





[This message has been edited by jad1097 (edited 06-05-2000).]

[Brydon]

Well I gotta say I wouldn't have thought that Sweden had loads of guns but it just proves that it can't be all bad as Sweden would come under my list of safe places to visit. Like I said it is a very big issue and I personally would use the first thing that came to hand to protect my family but it does scare me when I think of a holiday to the states (in my dreams) that the guy next to you in MacDonalds may be carrying a gun inside his jacket. Anyway I think that as narayan said it is all about teaching kids and adults alike how to treat these weapons that will make the world a bit safer as I reckon alot of killings are accidents through lack of handling a weapon and also how to care for one to keep it in a fit state if repair.

[Brydon]

jad1097...you said

I do not have a single firearm in my possession and that is for a reason. I know I lack the self control not to shot someone so I choose not to have a firearm in my house and ask people who come to my house to leave them home. But I know myself better than others know themselves.

I think you are a bigger man than any that would carry a gun as you know you self and your limitations and I really respect that where as the man with the gun does not so he carries it to be on the safe side. I myself wouldn't trust myself with a gun as what if you were having a good bevvy and you fell out with someone or worse. No-one thinks straight with a drink and it is to easy to act on impulse which could mean a life lost and a long stretch for the person with the gun. Glad I don't have to worry to much about it and I don't really think I can give fair comment on a situation that has never entered my life and I hope never will.

[Mntsnow]

I too will chip in with my 2cents http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif Here in Utah we have actually seen a overall decline (per-cap) of violent crime since they opened up the ability to obtain a CCW permit. Before you had to show "justified need" to obtain one...Now it is available to all that can pass the background check (very intensive) as well as pass a CCW class with actual hands-on firearm profiency. I am one that has obtained a permit and must say that about the only time I don't have one ON me is when I'm at work or scuba diving http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif. (my company doesn't allow them in the building and it is posted so at that time it is locked in a safe that is bolted to the floor under my seat in the car and I don't want my firearm to get rusty! lol) I am a FIRM believer in proper training and instruction of firearms. I also belive in AVOIDING at all possible situations were my firearm would need to be used. Case in point when my family and I go out to eat we request a table AWAY from the cashier station but one where I can see the cashier station. (reasoning if I can see a situation occurring I can get my family to cover without becoming involved). I will also say that most people that become CCW certified also have a "heightened sense" of what is occurring around them as they are instructed and trained to become aware. About a year ago my brother and I were coming out of a Circle K when two groups of "gang-bangers" decided to "go at it". Needless to say both my brother and I quickly gained cover behind a car and readied ourselves incase the fight came to the point that we would have been in "harms way". Thankfully neither of us had to use our firearms BUT we were able to give authorities EXCELLENT descriptions of the involved people including the make and model of both cars and the full plate number of one of them!

Sorry to have gotten away from the true topic but thought that a actual situation might explain my feelings a bit better.

I too think that there is WAY to many laws concerning firearms.....If they were ENFORCED then I bet there would not be the need nor the talk of more gun restrictions!

Mntsnow
*still forgetting about the spelling check feature http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/frown.gif *

[This message has been edited by Mntsnow (edited 06-05-2000).]

[scotter]

you only need 1 law conserning fire arms
if you commit a crime any crime and you have or use a fire arm in that crime you go to jail for LIFE . ...............

lets see how many people go robbing and stealing and killing if they are going to get LIFE for it and I mean LIFE NO parole at all

the reasion for the right to bare arms in the U.S.A. is or was to keep the goverment in check so that the they could never use force to subdue the people, and that in the case where the goverment got curupt the people could take it back, that right has been taken away with all the laws that are on the books at this point we dont need more we need less

[tonym]

I just joined the NRA! And I don't even own a gun right now.

Why did I do this?

Because the more individual rights that are eroded by the central government in the name of our "safety" or our "whatever", the more each of us will have to justify our existence to someone else for ANYTHING and then EVERYTHING we do.

Guns are not evil. Just machined hunks of metal that can be used for a variety of activities. These activities are controlled by the whim and the will of sentient beings (we humans) that own them...they may be used for good or for evil. The vast (and I do mean vast) number of gun owners choose to own them in a law-abiding (and even more importantly a society-abiding manner). They don't discharge them irresponsibly or theaten others with them or.... They've obtained them and store them and own the guns legally (whatever that means)!

A small minority of people who get their hands, and more importantly their wills, on guns don't do this. This is why there are gun laws. However, we as a society don't choose to punish the miscreants in a manner commensurate with the crime. Alternatively, we choose to torment the law-abiding majority! Why? It's far easier to ride herd on everybody than it is to punish and administer to those few that cannot control themselves.

We do need guns! An unarmed populous is very easily coerced and controlled. Today we have a central government that is popularly elected. Could the future hold a dictatorship or an oligarchy?? If the people are armed, I say NO!!! The possibility of gun ownership is the check-and-balance force that keeps the average citizen in the US in full possession of their full slate of God-given rights and freedoms.

Yes, there are other ways to mediate a situation, but unfortunately our human nature makes a world with just non-violent protests or uprisings highly unlikely. And dangerous for the individual. Just look at the looting that happens during a riot or after a natural disaster. Why does this happen? There is no "fear of the unknown". How much looting would occur if it were known that a shop owner was inside with a gun trained on the door to protect their interests? The answer is none (or a very small amount that would help to Darwinize the criminal population!).

So, we need the gun as a tool and a symbol of our freedom and liberty. And the finest part of that is our collective choice to not use the gun irresponsibly, but for the very most part for recreation and in very extreme circumstances for personal protection.

You can control guns no more tha you can control the tides. You have to educate people from a very early age on gun safety, etiquette and laws. Then you have to prosecute, punish, and CONTROL those who choose to use a gun for criminal purposes. It's that simple!


Just my $0.02 worth...


Tony

[jad1097]

scotter
I don't think so! Life in prison for any crime committed with a firearm is a bit far fetched at least for a first offense. Just about everyone deserves a second chance.

[scotter]

There are no second chances, thats what is so screwed up with world now, every body gets a second chance, tell that to my little girl who was molested by a second chance
tell that to the store owner who was shot and killed during a hold up by a second chance how many people have to be hurt or killed by second chances ? I'll say this again if you comit a crime with a gun you go to jail for life ! no second chance at all
and if you molest kids guns are not you go for life !

[jad1097]

Whatever.

That is plain ignorant IMO. It's a good thing you are not a politician. Are you really willing to support an individual for 60 years that makes a mistake at the age of 18 or 19? Maybe we should put everyone who gets arrested for possession of cocaine in prison for life then that would also cut down on violent crimes. Hell lets just throw anyone intoxicated in prison for life since most crimes are done by those people. Drunk drivers should also get life in prison because they are in control of a deadly weapon and kill more people than guns do. Lets see the first DUI you go to prison for life, no second chance right. Why don't we just cut off someones hands off for shoplifting or any type of theft, no second chances.etc...etc...!

[This message has been edited by jad1097 (edited 06-06-2000).]

[psyklone]

i've gotta say that i agree with scotter. you can say that everyone deserves a second chance and that if someone makes a mistake at 18 or 19 they should not be given the most strict punishment available even if it is their first offense. i'm sorry but 18 or 19 years old is WAY over the age of accountability. when you know right from wrong and you choose wrong and go one further by choosing to do wrong and involve a gun, then you should be punished VERY severely and i don't think that life in prison is too severe. most violent offenders are not one time offenders, and can you honestly tell me that if someone used a gun in connection with a crime that involved your family (potentially resulting in the death of one or more family members), you'd feel comfortable having them roaming the streets? i think not.
my wife and i are both supporters of the freedom to carry and she carries her .45 with her everywhere that is legal to do so.

[scotter]

you need to look at the laws right now and see what is happening a armed robber gets less jail time than a first time offender for possesion of less than a gram of coke.

It's all the bleeding heart librals and cry babys with their you have to be nice **** that has gotten this world the way it is If the punishment totaly out ways the crime would you do the crime ?
and In my book yes if some one comes in and stills my computer or any thing else of mine cut there hand off bet they dont still no more

and dont even think about giving them any pain killers when ya do it http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

we should bring back public hangings and floggings stone the low lifes in town center and show it on TV for all to see.

these Punk kids taking guns to school take the gun from them and shoot them in the foot with it lets see how many kids take guns to school after that.

and while your at it shoot the parents in the foot to, for not Knowing what there kids are doing http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[jad1097]

Your ignorance is only surpassed by your abundant computer knowledge.

At the age of 19 I was looking at 63(25+20+10+5+3=63) years in prison max. Unless you have walked in my shoes you would never ever even begin to comprehend what a glass pipe is capable of doing to an individual. You can not possibly understand what happens to the human brain under the influence of drugs. Right and wrong no longer exist. The only thing that you know is that you want to get high at any means. I was addicted to drugs from 12-19 years old.

Also since then I have been robbed at gunpoint, had cars stolen and broken into, had my house broken into, etc.. After calming down when I was robbed I remember feeling sorry for the kid that robbed me.

So please don't give me that cry baby ****. Most violent crimes are done by drug addicts. If you get rid of the drugs violent crimes will drop.

And yes the parents are at fault and should be prosecuted for a minors violent crime. Maybe if mine were there when I was younger I would not have done what I did.

I have become a proud father of two and a very productive member of society.

You can think what you wish but I will know what I know.

[tonym]

No second chances.

You can afford to give a second chance in a game, but not where an individual's life is concerned.

If the penalty is broadcast and understood, then there's NO reason that the criminal shouldn't get the incarceration thye most heartily deserve!

Society has to have the willpower to do this, not forgive and forget. Not with my life or the lives of my loved ones, than you...


Tony

[hd581]

ILC, you've done it now...OK, I wanna be fair about this so I'll just try to argue w/ everyone, ok? http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif
jad####: Gun control is not the answer here, education is. It would be nice if we could successfully educate our nations 260 million. But the fact is there will always be a lot of careless or stupid people out there who will still leave their guns lying around. I'm not going to trust everyone, jad. I do not have a single firearm in my possession and that is for a reason. I know I lack the self control not to shot someone so I choose not to have a firearm in my house and ask people who come to my house to leave them home. But I know myself better than others know themselves.Jad, you've pretty much outlined here what I believe to be the issue. We tend to label criminals and bystanders as 2 different people. No, one can easily become the other. Murder is often an act of rage, committed by otherwise normal people. I would rather these normal people walk around with plastic bats than guns. Without guns, the worst they can do in a short time is beat you up. I believe Brydon was also making this point: No-one thinks straight with a drink and it is to easy to act on impulse which could mean a life lost and a long stretch for the person with the gun. scotter: lets see how many people go robbing and stealing and killing if they are going to get LIFE for it and I mean LIFE NO parole at alland: and In my book yes if some one comes in and stills my computer or any thing else of mine cut there hand off bet they dont still no more You mentioned your daughter. What if she's 18, wants some quick cash and steals money out of your wallet while you're away? She's liable to the treatment you described.

psyklone: when you know right from wrong and you choose wrong and go one further by choosing to do wrong and involve a gun, then you should be punished VERY severely and i don't think that life in prison is too severe.Don't take prison at all lightly. Several years can be a pretty severe punishment indeed. We all make mistakes of varying degrees and we should be punished according to those degrees. What would we be saying if we gave serial killers the same sentence as one time offenders? If the offender knew he'd get a life sentence for just shooting someone in the foot as well as someone going on a killing spree, why not just go on the killing spree?

[bhess]

In Florida the passed a law a year or two ago saying commit a crime with a gun and get x amount of years. Commit a crime and discharge the gun and get x and actually shoot someone and get x amount of time. They blasted it all over the TV in commercials ( shows you how much I watch commercial I don't even remember the exact year amount.)
Who knows if it will really work. We'll probably run out of jail space and start setting them free.

[pickel]

I think ya'll are missing the point!! No matter what laws are enacted, no matter what education is implemented, no matter how careful we all are with our weapons, the low lifes , drug dealers ,etc ARE going to have guns and more guns. All I'm saying is that ypou have to be prepared for the unexpected if you want to survive in todays world. Yes , when carrying a weapon your senses are heightened.Esspecially when your out with your wife and family. You keep a keen eye out for possible confrontations and try to avoid them. But what happens when you can't and there's three dudes with knifes trying to rip you off. " Oh , Yes Sir here 's my money, please don't hurt my wife and child" Bull$hitt, I'm gonna make a believer out of them right quick like. You're your own security force, never be oblivious, it only takes a moment to die and don't ever forget that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's a link www.wilsoncombat.com (http://www.wilsoncombat.com)
Bill Wilson has tapes on "house clearing" and other subject for self defense

the pickel

[This message has been edited by pickel (edited 06-06-2000).]

[psyklone]

At the age of 19 I was looking at 63(25+20+10+5+3=63) years in prison max. Unless you have walked in my shoes you would never ever even begin to comprehend what a glass pipe is capable of doing to an individual. You can not possibly understand what happens to the human brain under the influence of drugs. Right and wrong no longer exist. The only thing that you know is that you want to get high at any means. I was addicted to drugs from 12-19 years old.

this is where you're wrong. right and wrong ALWAYS exist, except in your own perception at any given time. now don't get me wrong, i think it's great that you've overcome all of this and you're obviously a decent, if not better, person now. i know what it's like to get in trouble, big trouble, and face time behind bars ... granted my trouble was computer related and non-violent. i've messed up pretty bad before and have made amends thusfar for what i've done. the fact of the matter is that everyone messes up and some make a habit of it. my personal opinion is that anyone that has the nerve/audacity/stupidity/cowardice/insanity/selfishness/etc to use a gun in any type of crime, regardless if anyone is hurt or killed, should be put away for as long a time as possible. when you steal a candy bar from a convenient store or draw graffiti on a wall ... that's a stupid mistake. when you pull a gun on someone (that hasn't drawn on you first) .... i'm sorry but that's about as close to inforgivable in my opinion as the worst of crimes. and if you do it because you're hopped up on something, then that's all the more reason you should get put away. i'm all for public hangings, i think that's the way it should be. even better, if you go and kill someone .... for instance those idiots that dragged that poor guy to death ... they should have been sentenced to death by dragging. it's just getting too crazy and a lot of it has to do with people being too ... i don't know what the best word is for it. people have gotten soft with the advancement of the social structure and would think most fitting punishment too barbaric. but in places where people actually get punished for violent crimes you're not going to have as much of it. i don't hate anyone, but i do have a very strong dislike for a type of person that we read the results of all too often in obituaries.

[ILC]

WOW! Ive never ever had this many returns on a forum I posted : )

Anyways first let me clear up what I meant in the beginning about fear and intimidation being the best detereants. I in no way ment the gestapo or SS or anything even remotely along those lines. What I meant was that if crimainals no that there is a good chance that the person there about to do whatever to might have a gun, then I gaurantee you they will think twice about doing it.

I also strongly believe in education being the key here. Education is exactly what the NRA is trying to pass legislation for, gun safety in schools, not banning guns.

HD581 you mentioned that the banning of guns would cut down on access of guns to criminals, which in fact would lead to less crime. Well no offense but that is about the dumbest thing that you have ever written bud. Drugs have NEVER been legal, and we cant even begin to come close to stopping them. Heck we cant even keep guns out of prisons so how would we keep them out of the country and out of criminals hands? I agree with the no second chance.

I dont really have anything to say really, everyone has covered everything and HD581 is the only person for gun control I think so far, so noone really to argue with.

Our right to bear arms is for the main purpose so that our own government wont ever be able to dictate us. As long as there are guns in our possession, we will always have power against our government. That is the primary reason for the 2nd amendment.

[narayan]

ILC, Right-on. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[narayan]

I heard gunshots near my house last night. I am glad that I am armed.

[cyclone2]

Well I am GLAD I live in Canada with really strict laws! I dont have to carry a Gun or worry that my neighbor or some other pinhead is going to blow my or my kids head off. Lets face it all you Charlton Heston fans if nobody had guns it would be a real nice WORLD! Generally the worst that happens around here is someone gets roughed up but at least hes still alive, shoot if had a gun Im sure there would be a couple dead ex-boss's neighbors etc around here and then you could pay $50,000 a year to keep me in Club Dead! Wake up and smell the roses
my rant........gunna hurt

[BBA]

So...a guy breaks into your house at night while you sleep...he likes your daughters sweet little 'bod....and doesn't have anyones best intentions in mind.

Oh...He's got a gun!...what are you gonna do?

It's your responsibility!

( Oh..I know...just let him go and forgive him...as your little girl lies in a pool of blood )

Morbid thoughts?

[ILC]

Cyclone, no offense but I hope you stay in Canada too! http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif I find that so hilarious to think that gun laws are gonna prevent criminals from getting guns! All gun laws are gonna do is prevent honest people from getting guns to protect themselves from criminals with.

[jad1097]

I would beat him with my baseball bat then call the police! But that is just me. Depending on what state you live in you can not shoot him unless he is armed. And guess what BBA one of those states happens to be Florida.

~added~ ILC I agree.

[This message has been edited by jad1097 (edited 06-07-2000).]

[cyclone2]

Heh- my point is if there is no guns then no worries! Just because you have a gun does not mean you are safe, Gee I wonder how many gun owners are killed each year let alone with there own (wives/kids/crooks) My point is I dont need a gun to feel safe in my community or any other city in Canada, whereas looking at some cities in the States seem to be degrading to Third World Status.
And no Im not slagging Americans in general 99.9% that Ive met are super friendly people, its these wonderful/ powerful/ almost fanatic views by the NRA that I disagree with.
Remember the good ol days when a 98 lb weekling got sand kicked in his face- he looked in the back of his Archie comic and paid $10 for the Charles Atlas program (Not) but now they pay $50 for a hot gun and are REAL tough guys.......Pretty tough to do here because of GUN LAWS

[hd581]

ILC: All gun laws are gonna do is prevent honest people from getting guns to protect themselves from criminals withPeople don't walk around w/ T-shirts that read "Honest Person" and "Criminal" so that we know who's who. Criminals=Honest Person in bad mood, or mad, or drunk, OK???? Anyone can be a criminal: your next door neighbor, your boss, your wife.

Alcohol was prohibited in the US for a period of time, and people still got alcohol. But it most certainly made it difficult as evidenced by the numerous alcohol business that went bankrupt or almost folded. If the US wanted to make it difficult for criminals to get guns, they could do so. Perhaps 1 or 2 will slip through the cracks, but that's acceptable considering the big picture.

[ILC]

Finally a little action.

First Jad, im not 100% sure of this but I believe that you have the right to shoot ANY persons that has broken into your house. Now depending on what state it is, they have to have a weapon visible if they are on your land, if theyre in your house, they are free game.

Cyclone and Hd581, go watch a real newstattion that is semi modest, instead of that liberal CNN, ABC, NBC ****. Those stations sure do like to leave out alot of facts about guns and crimes. Whens the last time you watched the nes and there was a reprot on a burlag breaking into someones house and getting shot by the woner? Or when a burglar is robbing a convienet store and gets shot by the woner? Nope all you here about is people doing drive by's and such! And guess what, there are over 500 cases of people proteecting themselves a day!

Second you really dont know what the NRA is about so back off. The NRA is about education, not giving every hick in the world a gun like the liberals want you to think.

Ok lets ban guns, nobody will be able to get them. Well hmm arent drugs banned? Have they ever been legal? THen how come can i goto to almost ANY city street corner and getthem?? Why would guns be any different then drugs?

Last quit blaming the guns! Guns dont kill people, PEOPLE kill people. I dont know about any of you but ive been around guns all my life, and I have never seen one jump off a table, load them sleves, run down the road to the first innocent person, then pull there own tirgger. Right.

ILC

[jad1097]

Nope in Florida you can not shoot someone even if they break into your house unless they are armed. I know this because I remember the news having a field day with it. Now they may have changed it since then. And if they are on your property with a weapon does not give you a right to shoot them either unless they confront you or a direct threat. ie.. If you see someone in your front yard with a gun and you get your gun and go outside and shoot them that is first degree murder in the state of Florida. If someone robs you and you chase after them and cut them up and put them in intensive care for 6 weeks that is attempted murder(that exact thing happened to my best friend)and if that person dies it is first degree murder. In Florida you need to prove that your life was in danger beyond a reasonable doubt when you shoot someone.

[ILC]

Does anyone else get the impression that criminals lives are more precious then the honest mans? Sure seems like it these days http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/frown.gif

[chuckiechan]

Let me preface this by saying that if I think I need an gun, I'm not going to go there-I'll stay home! Having said that, I believe that most anti-gun people that the law and the government have the power to save your life when you are about to become a victim - well let me tell you that's B.S. and you are a dead duck. As larger and larger areas of our fine country are off-limits due to crime, what exactly do you plan to do when death and destruction comes knocking on your door (or more likely, through it)? A gun can buy you time for a 911 call-a shot through the floor or the roof-, or it may actually need to be used for actual defense. But either way, without a gun you will have no warning shot, no final shot, and the last sound anyone will hear from you is your voice on the 911 tape on the 9:00 news.

[narayan]

Nope in Florida you can not shoot someone even if they break into your house unless they are armed.
If anyone enters my house w/o my permission, I will shoot that person. Even if I live in Florida. If someone comes in when I say no, then I am in danger. One could argue that the Florida law is yet another silly gun law. Illegal to shoot an intruder. Who wrote that piece of **** law? Don't defend yourself or your property, or you may go to jail.

~and another thing, just because some believe that "no guns = safety for everyhappybody", you may not be threatened by a gun in a gun-less society. Getting killed with a knife is just as bad.

[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 06-08-2000).]

[barry glisson]

just remember it is better to be tried by 12 men than to be carried by 6. barry

[skai]

in Port Arthur Tasmania 1996 a total nutter shotand killed more than 20 ppl the govt of oz decided the other 19mil citizens were nutters too and launched a multi million dollar gun buyback scheme and compulsary registration of allweapons also banned all auto and semiauto weapons. in my state {NSW}
the crime stats remain unchanged murders 1995-119 1999-121 robberies w/weapon 1995-677 1999-696 and it is said there are still millions of illegal arms out there, you can only get bans if the majority of people want it ,and we see on the tv news and in the papers the druggies and other sleaze in our society and we opt for the guns ,sorry so long winded but important subject