Did you pay for your OS?

[Strip]

I'm just curious, since I realized that the only OS I ever bought (and I don't mean paying for illegal copies) was the first Win95.

[richamies]

The only OS I've paid money for is Linux. All my Microsoft stuff is legit - either leftover copies at work, or 'samples' straight from Microsoft.

[Mntsnow]

I legally own ALL my copies of software. Many I got over the years when I bought "preconfigured" systems and in the recent years thru my OEM systems builder and my membership to Microsoft Tech-net and Select.

Mntsnow

[CMonster]

Paid for Win95 twice -once included Win95b in system, and once I bought Win95c (for distribution only with a new PC) from a retailer who should have included it in a system - but didn't $99.

I bought the following: Caldera Linux 1.3 $49; Caldera Linux 2.2 $69; Caldera Linux 2.3 $19 - they cut me a deal on the new version as an "upgrade" but it is the full retail version; Redhat 6.1 Delux $79; Corel Linux Delux $79 - but I returned it; and BeOS 4.5 bundled with the BeOS Bible $99

And regarding any other OSs - of course I dont have any http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

[Underclocked]

Dearly and often. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

[Dave_H]

I have bought and paid for a legal copy for each of my computers.

[shnikey]

CMonster why do you pay for all those linux distrobutions when you can download them for free off the net? Is it because they come with documentation or does it come with extras. Just wondering if I am missing anything by downloading them.
Shnikey

[This message has been edited by shnikey (edited 01-24-2000).]

[Eli]

I bought my own copy of W98. I'm still trying to get my $150 Canadian out of it... http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

[mnx]

I pirate software on a consistant basis and my cdr was an awesome investment.... (saved me 1000's on software and music) The only software I've ever bought was a couple games when i was like 10, wp (i have a newer pirated version now) and OS/2 Warp 4 (this was before my cdr and extreme pirating days...)

MNX

[chipbgt]

So you dont view that as stealing? I know if I wrote some of those programs, I woudl want my fair share.

[richamies]

To me proper piracy sucks. Using a pirated copy of something you use infrequently, or cannot get hold of is not so bad. But if you use a pirate version a lot, then buy an original - kind of like "try before you buy". That I can uderstand.

But I can't agree with anyone that uses a pirated OS. It isn't something you use infrequently. It's something that is in use 100% of the time, and for all I hate Microsoft and their pathetic antics with US, they still have a reasonably stable and useful operating system, with masses of software available. They have spent their time writing it and bug testing(?) it and deserve to be paid for their work.

I guess I don't have a leg to stand on here as I haven't paid for a copy of Windows yet, but they are all legitimate legal copies, that have been bought for from Microsoft. My Windows 2000 is an official version from Microsoft, maybe I would use a pirate version of that(it's the beta) until it came out, and then buy the full complete version.

I copy music. I have loads of tapes, maybe 300 or 400. but if I play them a lot, then I buy the CD. If there is only 1 good song on their I don't buy the CD. Maybe that makes me bad? I'm not sure, and anyway, we are drifting from the subject here so I shall depart and watch for the flames http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif.

*edit* - deleted about 30 typos. why doesnt M$ have an automatic typo checker built in? http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by richamies (edited 01-24-2000).]

[Strip]

My personal opinion is that there should come an OS included with the motherboard. A computer is totally useless w/o OS. It's like selling a car w/o a steering wheel and the steering wheel will cost 10% of what you payed for the car.
Buying Win98se where I live (Sweden) will cost me 1 868.75 SEK ($217.91 US). Yeah, many will say that the high prices is mostly because of the piracy, but I don't believe that this is the only reason. As we all know it, Microsoft is the ruler, they make the rules. It is already one of the most profit-making companies in the world. I can't see that they would suffer from using a more moderate pricing policy. They just know that there is no other options avaliable for all the expensive computers in the world, but buying their precious Windows. So they can put any price they want.
Of course, we also have other OS:es, Like Linux, BeOs etc. The problem is that there isn't software enough to support a choise like that.

If I can't get a steering wheel for my hampster, for a reasonable price, I have to steal one.
I'd be the happiest guy in the world to pay for my software, but there has to be fair play!
A few days ago, I bought McAffee 4.something. Nice price, nice program. They put an effort in programming and they don't overprice. Free support came with the software as well as updates. No risk that the software will be useless in a year or two. I'd like to see Microsoft do that. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[Spydergsx]

The version i'm using right now is a legal copy of Win98SE tht came with one of my other computers. BUT, i also have corel Linux which was free, i downloaded Win2000 off of the internet for free but haven't been using it, and i am currently trying to find windows millineum. I try not to , but usually i pirate a liitle software, but i always end up either not using it or deleting it anyway, so i guess it really is just like testing it.

[CMonster]

shnikey,

Yes, you do get some extras when you buy the whole retail package, but that is not why I do it. I can afford to spend money on OSs (although that was not always the case), and

I don't mind paying for an OS that essentially becomes "mine," right down to the source code. Another reason I spend money on these "alternative OSs" is to send a clear message that I support alternatives. I want these companies to continue in devolopement of their OSs, and I want software companies to see that there is money to be made in porting applications for these.

Now, regarding Micro$oft: It wouldn't be so bad if their product followed standard marketing principles, i.e. higher volume means a lower price for everyone, but this is obivously not the case.

It was a pretty slick move by Micro$oft to name an OS after the year - that way you can get the customers to keep on paying for it every time you have a minor upgrade or bug fix (I can freely download these fixes and new features for Linux). After all, how many copies of Windows do I need?

Another thing that offends me about Micro$oft is that the Former CEO is worth billions upon billions (sorry I am basically a socialist at heart) while so many of the common people are in utter poverty. I also have an issue with the salaries that top officials are paid in many companies - but especially M$; this is my issue - while their efforts are adept at speeding communication and keeping psychopaths (self included) clicking joysticks, they do not grow food, sew garments, or build houses - they may assist the logistics in these things, but 30 years ago we got along without them. My bottom line is that if profits are that good then maybe it's time to give the public a break.

Micro$oft business practice is the other thorn in my paw - do you know that M$ agreed to GIVE Windows95 to the LAPD (Los Angeles Police Department) for use in their computers so long as ALL NON-MICROSOFT SOFTWARE IS REMOVED FROM THOSE COMPUTERS? M$ has a habit of crushing competitors - they even turned canibal on IBM (not that I am in love with IBM either), the company that gave them their start.

I could go on and on but I better stop now.





[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 01-25-2000).]

[mnx]

Programmers get paid no matter what, it's the owners of companies profits I dip into when I pirate software (espically microsoft). Sure if a program was amazing and I wanted to support that company then I'd buy it, but I certainly don't want to support microsoft and it's buggy useless OS... For such reasons I use Word Perfect and Netscape and Linux... If I did have $200 to spend I certainly would spend it on a new cpu instead of a lame OS...

mnx

[richamies]

mnx - How often to you use the "lame buggy OS"?

Maybe if more people brought the software they use regularly, more programmers could be hired and less bugs would get through...

[medo]

Hello,

All my OS and programs are now legal or evaluation copies except some games. I come from the country were word "legal" is illegal.

Medo

http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[sinfonian98]

Hey I just found the coolest web site!!!! check it out at ****DELETED**** anyways Im sure they have exactly what your looking for!

No warez sites are allowed here. Do not post them, do not solicit them on this BBS. -socalgal

[This message has been edited by socalgal (edited 01-25-2000).]

[mnx]

windoze isn't that bad, it's just not that great. it's registry gets bloated way too easily and it never fully recovers after you un-install programs... I've barely used windows at all the last month, I've been using Linux...

matt

[grecian]

What is the point in buying your O/S unless you are a business. I personally believe for home use it should be free. I have never bought a copy of Windows, a copy if 95ver1 came with my very first machine, and the rest of the times I've just downloaded them off the internet. I got 95ver2 off, win98ver1/ver2 off the net, and recently I just downloaded win2000release ver3. I refuse to buy a copy of windows due to the incredibly high prices. It takes me on a 56k modem about 5-7 hours to download a version of windows, and costs me about £4.50 for the pleasure. for which I'm online chatting usually anyway.

[chipbgt]

It doesnt matter if its for business or pleasure, your still using it. Give a reason they should be free.

"Hi, I would like a buy a car, but I dont want to pay for it because its for personal use, not business."

"Hey, Can I have a free big mac? I know I need to eat something, and I dont really like big macs, so you should give it to me for free."

obscure but kind of on the right track.

[Strip]

I have a great reason why the OS should be free. Should be free for all. Or at least have a reasonable price. Read my post above.

[chipbgt]

But there are free Os's. Microsoft's cost money. If you dont like to pay for it, dont. Use a free one, and show em you'll stand up against microsoft.

[Strip]

That's true. But who will provide me with the software I need? I had a friend set up a Linux machine for me a while ago (I don't know **** about Linux), but hey? Guess what? Two months later there was a plain ol' win95 on that machine again. Reason: No software.

I'm happy to see new OS:s popping up every now and then, but the problem remains: Who will provide the programs? What we need is a cheap (free?) Windows emulator. One that works. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/biggrin.gif

[mattheadfat]

if i owned several computers with windows, legally, should i have purchased windows for each one??

[Strip]

Yes and no. Depends on how many you use at the same time. You can have ten computers, with one license of Windows, but in that case you can only use one machine at the time.
If you want to use all ten machines at the same time, you must (if you want it to be legal) have ten licenses of Windows.

Edit » My spelling could be better...

[This message has been edited by Strip (edited 01-27-2000).]

[chipbgt]

well how do you expect people to fund the software for these os's? Companies won't start making software for linux until they see they can profit from it, bottom line. Hey, IM like you, I would LIKE my OS to be free, believe me, but the fact is, Windows never will be. So you got to make do with what you got. buuuut..I just dont think piracy is the right response.

[Strip]

Well, you are right. Piracy is not the right response. But by some strange reason, what Microsoft is doing makes me "think" that stealing is suddenly legitimate. "They f*** with me - I f*** with them"
I'm not the devil. I don't have horns in my forehead. But I think there should be fare (fair?) play.

Software manufacturers are opening their eyes, for especially Linux. The market offers a lot of programs to choose from. Many of the most famous programs are developed also for Linux, as well as many games. Problem is that there is still a long way for them to go and I don't have a clue who should help them. I for sure will not, until I benefit from it too. When Linux (or any other) is comparable with Windows platform, I'll be happy to convert.
I've seen Linux in action and the rumours about it beeing a great OS, stable and reliable are true.



[This message has been edited by Strip (edited 01-27-2000).]

[Jinx67]

I,ve been reading your post,s. And I don,t run any pirated Os,s personally.But saying that microsoft is losing money because people pirate their Os, is like saying Mick Jagger would go bankrupt if you taped your friends Rolling Stones album. "Oop's my generation is showing." Anyhow I don,t see microsoft going under any time soon. I'll start wondering once I see Compaqs base systems sold off the shelf with Linux. "Dare to Dream."

[mrdisco]

Folks, just forget about Microsoft and get Linux.

I used to download and copy software illegally all the time, talkng about how software was too expensive, client licenses are a ridiculous concept, and all that ****.

Now, I still download and copy software, but I don't have to worry about going to jail for it! Plus, there's the benefit of not haviing to reverse-engineer copy protection schemes, spending more time searching the net than actually downloading stuff, FTP quotas, or any of that stuff.

I dual boot Win98 and Linux and my Linux installation has a free version of just about anything I'd want to do on my PC (except Quake 3, which is paid for). My Windows installation has hundreds, possibly thousands of $$$ of software, some paid for some not.

I've decided that I am now finished with Microsoft. I've got enough on Linux where I won't ever have to buy or steal another Microsoft product again. Getting great software for free with a clear conscience is a wonderful thing!

[alpha]

Well,
All my OSes are illeagal. Please don't give me any **** about stealing and the like. I installed Wub98SE from my friends CD and I had a copy of NT workstation burned for me. I don't use the copy of NT anymore, though.

Microsoft ain't loosing anything, because, as you all know, I'm 13 and wouldn't buy it in the first place, because I can't afford it

[richamies]

I think I take the view that if you buy a license for an OS, you should be entitled to use whatever verion of that OS you want. All the W9x series are really just bug updates for what M$ got wrong in the first place.

Personally, I have 2 W95 licenses, 1 WNT license, and my W2k beta 3 which doesnt come with one. I'd quite happily run W98 and not feel bad, knowing that much of it is bug fixes for what M$ can't get right the first time around(W95).

The only reason I stick with M$ is because of the software base it has available. True, Linux has a wonderful following, but its messy, installing programs can be a pig(I know its getting better but having to recompile the program when you can't even do a dir properly is awkward), and M$ has it quite slick now.

I have mixed opinions on piracy, on a whole. If you use something regularly, or use it for business use, then in my opinion you should buy a legal copy. I don't think I have a pirate copy of anything anymore, a lot of what I use is freeware so that will count for a lot. Magazines give away some pretty good stuff on Cover CD's nowadays, and I get a lot of stuff off that.

I can understand anyones point over Microsoft pricing - I couldn't afford a three figure sum for a copy of office! However, if it came with free updates to the next version, and bug fixes through the post, and a decent manual(none of those dummies books) then I would consider it. Microsoft needs to bundle their OS, and a proper manual detailing pretty much everything for the prices they are selling at now. That would be proper value for money

I do have a few copies around, but it is mostly obselete. Like Windows 1.01 http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif, I also have WFW 3.11. But if anyone knocked at the door, I'm sure I could find another license for WFW3.11.

Just my non cents....geddit? http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

nonsense? Never mind, I found it amusing http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by richamies (edited 01-29-2000).]

[BBA]

Hmmmm....

I have been known to pay for software but I seem to be getting my OS software of late from MS eval shipments or from Select versions from MS. Some also from OEM shipments with PC's that will never be used with the software shipped with them (for example, a copy of NT4 is included with every PC we buy at work, but we have enterprise/corporate NT licensing for each PC, along with the individual license sent with the PC) (which is like 2 licenses for the same PC). Only thing is, a single user license is not allowed in this environment.

The truth is that MS does not make money on it's software, it's makes it's money on licensing the software out.

PS: cmonster....about BG and corporate exec's with all that money...life never has been fair and never will be! Just be glad you live in a country that lets a person decide his own destiny, instead of being locked in a "Class" system by birth!

[hai]

The reason why bill gates becomes the richest man in the world and probably will remain for 2 decades is too many stupid people have been paying M$ buggy OS from time to time with whatever price M$ wants to charge them. From win95a to win95b to win95 OSR2 to win98 to win98SE to Millennium. M$ made very little progress among different builds. Nonetheless some people blindly paid M$ $90 for each "bug fix". If I were bill, I would be really appreciated to **** you all off.

Software is far different with car. Once software company finishes one software, they cost very tiny to duplicate more copies for sales.

[AuraEdge]

I borrowed Win98, and paid for a used OEM Win98 -> Win98SE upgrade...does that count?
http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
..I have 2 win95 OEM Liscences and 1 Win98SE update liscence...so thats kinda legal right?

All my friends n stuff do warez, and It really gets to me sometimes, when I pay 40 bucks for a game (which was worth every penny) and they have it on a CompUSA CD-r in school a week later.

He has the final copy of Win2k, but Im a bit scared of it...hes still being wowed at how the start menu materializes...

Knowing me, Win2k wont touch my system til I get a dual system.

[alpha]

I suppose I'm kind of all right with my copy of Win98 because I have a fully leagal Win95 license.
I still have limited funds and even if an os was £50, I'd have to make a choice betweem a leagal os and more ram.

Who's with the ram idea? http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

[Groo]

You know, it's a darn shame that people don't realize this one:

Lower the prices to something reasonable=less piracy.

Duh!

Of course there are thousands of pirated Windows OS's out there because nobody can afford to pay ~$200 for an operating system.

Think about it, if it was like $80, would you buy? Yes.

Office 97/2000 - yeah.. I'm going to pay $900 cdn for that??? Whatever... instead I bought Corel Office 2000 for $50.

Am I going to spend $60 on games that suck? No. Like Driver for instance, I "borrowed" the game to check out - I loved the demo, but before I blew $60 for it I wanted to know what it was really like. I'm glad I didn't buy it.

There used to be a time, when I was young and naive, that I didn't own one single piece of software. It's the opposite now. It's not cool, and it is illegal with punishment (fines and jail). And being a programmer (ex), I know the feeling of people "stealing" your software you worked so hard on. It's a ****-off.

Now companies do have to get reasonable with prices. It's ridiculous. And if I can't afford or choose not to pay a lot of money for their software, too bad for them. I'll find an alternative and they lose out.

.....

[neil_mck]

I have never bought ANYTHING off microsoft and never recieved any microsoft software in a package or with a computer.

I'm a student with no money and i think microsoft are rich enough as it is.

I believe that businesses should have legit copies though.

[UncaDanno]

This thread is starting to remind me of debates I used to hear all the time where I used to work.

Think about some of the opinions stated here:

"I can't afford to buy an OS, so it is perfectly alright for me to steal it."
Stealing is stealing. Regardless the rationale. By the same token, and employer could claim, "You worked hard, did your job, but I can't afford to pay you. Get lost." Or a passerby could say, "I really like that Maserati, but I can't afford it, so it's alright for me to hot-wire it."

"The mobo should come with an OS." Really? To take another slant on the "I wouldn't buy a car if I had to pay extra for the steering wheel" bit, are you just buying a mobo, or are you building a system? OK, you get a mobo with the OS included: what do you use for, say, the PS, keyboard, mouse, monitor, interfaces, cables, etc? Oh, they should be included, too? That's called "buying a system" and the OS is usually included. Or why not buy a mobo (with OS) and steal everything else?

As far as "M$ has plenty of money, my pittance won't drive them into bankruptcy", think about this: Everything I write, I either give away (free to everyone) or I sell it (everybody is expected to pay). I buy all the not-for-free software I use. Including OS. I ask anyone who steals ANYTHING, "just what elevates you so far above everyone else that you can STEAL and feel justified in so doing?"

I guess that is the point of this ramble: If it's for sale, you're expected to pay. If you don't, you are a thief.

Besides, who is FORCING you to use Windoze, OS/2, Linux, BeOS, or anything else?

Sorry about the length and vitriol, but I have experienced too many people with the arrogance to lie and steal when so many others work their asses off to obtain the things they want (NOT require for survival).

[mrdisco]

I feel justified in stealing Microsoft software, because I see what they do as being just as unethical.

Anyway, it's a moot point, because you're absolutely right. Nobody is forcing me to use their OS. And now that I have Linux, I don't buy or steal MS stuff anymore for that reason.

I still have Win98 installed on my PC for compatibility with some games and so my wife can use it. Once those obstacles are overcome, though (which should be soon), I'll run nothing but Linux. If my wife doesn't want to migrate, then she can pay for a Windows license with her own money.

[Freakout]

I have a Friend who work's in the Government (Canada), when they got their box of Win98SE she just got me one still sealed, it's been paid for (Government) and I use it. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

Besides she says that out of a whole box usually half just sit there unused, most people in her department just bring them home. Government tax dollars hard at work http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

P.S. I did buy Win98 when it first came out. But use the Win98SE now.

[alpha]

Think of it as payback for the monopoly thing!

[mrdisco]

Sheesh...

All these government agencies are spending our tax dollars on multiple copies of something it probably only needs one of, just so they can be compliant with Microsoft's licensing policy. Yet another way MS is screwing us over.

Gives a new meaning to the term Microsoft tax.

PS- for those who don't know, Microsoft tax = the amount that you pay for the MS operating system that you may or may not want or use whenever you buy a PC.

[hd581]

UncaDanno: You're right, stealing is stealing. I agree that it's always wrong but you make it sound like it's on the scale of murder. People speed on the way to work, copy video tapes, jaywalk and such. This falls in that category.

And don't deny it: many of us have the moral code we have because we can AFFORD it. And what if I take the money I didn't use to buy an OS and give that to the poor? Kinda makes me Robin Hood huh?

[Edit]
(Meanwhile Microsoft strongarms Socalgal and Sysopt into divulging the entire list of logged IP's for this thread.....)

[This message has been edited by hd581 (edited 02-02-2000).]

[hai]

I'm quite sure a few microsoft employees must be here.

Stealing? Who the hell lost anything? They can't get a single penny from anyone who can not afford their buggy, pricey os. At most, that's something like you peering through a window of a threater without paying the tickets. They didn't lose the software after someone pirated it.

Software industry claimed they lost billions of dollars every year for piracy. What a shameless, silly lie! In same way, transportation department can claim they lose
billions of dollars because people don't take their buses. Instead, people use own cars.

"No one forces you using windoze, os2". Yeah, for same theory, no one forces you to pay tax , parking ticket, fine or whatever too. M$ controls the markets of pc os. Majority of people don't have any choice against it unless they don't use computers at all.

It's really the time for some stubborns to change mind.

[jad1097]

My turn!
Win95 yes,98 yes Linux mandrake6.5 yes. Everything else no.If I decide to keep everything else I will then purchase them.
I think there should be a 60 day trial period for all O/S's that you are required to pay for.. look at everyone that paid $90 for a windows 98 update. Or did they pay $90 for internet connection sharing? Sorry but I would not waste my money. For that you could go out and download linux and buy BEOS.The only reason I paid for Linux was wanted the extras.

[chipbgt]

I have seen a lot of "Well microsoft is unethical so its ok for me to steal there OS."

No, Its not...we all know two wrongs dont make a right. I just dont see How poeple can justify it. I agree with everything UncaDanno said, he just said it better then I could have.

[jad1097]

Well lets see Bill gates makes about 600,000 an hour! I read that somewere. And he deserves,well some of it.I deserve the rest just for the BSOD! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif
chipbgt
Is it Ok for microsoft to steal code to use in their OS? As they say "what comes around goes around"!


As for the reason people STEAL software is because they feel no wrong(lack of morals) in going click and downloading it. I myself have had things such as Millennium burned for me and Win2000. And I see no wrong in this as they do not offer any kind of trial period.
Do you have any idea how much software I have that I can not return because I do not like or want it( I am sure everyone likes $30 coasters!)? At least 30 cd's! Maybe if the manufaturers offered 30 or 60 day full trials of their software it would be better.I would be willing to pay $3 or$5 for a full demo cd with a time bomb. But to pay $20 or $30 for something because it sounded good on the box is bad for the consumer. Why do you think Warez sites are so populer?
If you go to a wares site you really will not see much Microsoft stuff there.
That being said, I just feel that all soft ware developers should consider the of effects of stealing peoples money because of a well labled box. You do know they do studies on this kind of thing? The rigth colors the stores ,well I won't get into that. Take a syche class or do a lot of reading.

Sorry just my long opion on the matter.I had no idea that such an ignornt ? would get so much response!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please stop posting to this stupid thread! I am tierd of seeing it.



[This message has been edited by jad1097 (edited 02-03-2000).]

[CMonster]

Sorry JAD, I just had to post to it - it's beginning to get interesting again.

I paid for my Windows 3.1, and (2)95 OSs, even (3)Linux & BeOS.. I chose to; I have also sampled copies of Win98, WinNT, and Win2K... I like Win98 and will buy Win98SE in the near future, I think. When Win2K reviews are in and the first revision i.e. Win2K OSR55? come out I will likely buy that or get it in a system.

However, I do not object to people using pirated software - I only object to pirates making money selling copies. I do not believe for one minute that Microsoft would lower their prices if no one used a pirated copy of their OS - nope, not for a minute! I just think that there would be a lot less people using computers.

Speaking of OSs coming with motherboards - it's happening! The other day I saw a motherboard that was packaged with Caldera OpenLinux2.3 - I think it was a SOHO board (I forget) but they're still selling it at Fry's. Funny thing is that I think the board has Ultra-ATA66 disk controler and current Linux kernels do not yet support UATA66......

I know that there is no utopia on earth - and likely there never will be in this dog-eat-dog speck of dust in the universe where every creature down to the lowly microbe is eating everyone else...but imagine a world in which we did not live to make a profit?

[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 02-03-2000).]

[chipbgt]

"what comes around goes around", but does make it right Jad? Your just saying the same thing. Your justifying stealing from Microsoft because they apperently stole from someone else.

You make it sound like you have to walk into a store and blindly pick software. Most games and apps have demo's, you can read reviews on MILLIONS of webstes of people who have used the product already, you can ask friends there opinion....but to say its not wrong because they dont have a trial period for it....Did microsoft (or any company for that matter) say "We will always have a demo for you to try." Not that I remember. In a perfect world , all software would have demos, and those that didnt , no one would buy.

Besides, lets get logical. This isnt a necessity we are talking about here, this is a "want." If bread cost 88 dollars a loaf and milk was 120 dollas a gallon, I might be a little more apt to steal to feed my family or friends. But we are talking abotu OS's and games for a computer here. You dont have to have these things, so please domt make it sound like any company is depriving you of something you need to survive.

[hd581]

Look, everyone's on their high horse championing the cause of Microsoft when in reality, if they were strapped for cash, they wouldn't hesitate to push the button marked "Windows NT - Start download"

BTW, Chipbgt, how do you pronounce that name? I keep saying to myself "Chibbagut"...

[This message has been edited by hd581 (edited 02-03-2000).]

[hai]

Don't get me wrong. I paid full price for a legit copy win95 OSR2 and redhat 5.0. I think all softwares should be free for personal, non-commerical usage. If I had a home business, I would like to pay every piece of software since they would be put in my tax deduction afterward. However, for normal usage, most softwares can't generate enough value to pay back their prices. I don't think that's worth. For "shop lifting" talkers, if you walk inside a big store, come out with a $500 camera hidding inside pocket, that's stealing, right? However, what if the camera is still there and you magically duplicate a copy? What does the store lose?

[jad1097]

I did not say it was right I was just stateing a fact.
I am not jokeing about all the software I have sitting here not used.And reveiws do not always do software justice. Not everyone can read a reveiw or read the box and get a firm grasp of what it acutally does and if they will like it or not.

[chipbgt]

hd581,

"Chipb" is short for Chip Bailey, a fake person me and my friends created in high school, we used him for prank calls, I disguised myself slightly and snuck in and made a senior picture for him, for the baby picture also, made up a honors list for him, its my name I use for getting free magazines and to use on the internet instead of giving out my real name. The GT comes because this is what I added for Instant messanger when I was a student at Georgia Tech...I just call it "Chip-b-gt" thanks for asking though =)

I just like owning all my software..I know its mine. I would just feel guilty taking something I know I should have paid for. Pirate if ya want, But I will continue choosing my software wisely and paying for it as well.

[hd581]

Kinda like George P Burdell, eh? http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[wyvrn]

I have bought all of my OS copies and never distruibuted them out either, unitl now. I downloaded win2k from a warez site to try it, and plan on paying for the full version when it is in 2nd revision. I just got dam tired of paying 100 every year for an OS that is simply an upgrade from previous years. Truth be told, I think I am going to make the switch to Redhat permanently and just keep my legally owned win98se on there for games. Microsoft just writes to much bloatware. Just give me something simple, easy and inexpensive to upgrade, controllable, stable, with modest application support and I am happy. For instance, Star office, among others, are free for Linux and you can download practically anything you need for free. Go Linux.

OK deleted the illegal copy of win2k from my machine, going to Linux dualboot for now. Sheesh, my conscience is getting to me ... Now all my software is LEGAL.
[This message has been edited by wyvrn (edited 02-03-2000).]

[This message has been edited by wyvrn (edited 02-08-2000).]

[Wiz]

i'm a bit suprised this thread is still open, but anyways. Yes, i have paid for the ones that cost money, that means win95 and win98. And to anyone who complains about pirated microsoft software, just call their tech support. they get ya there to.

I have had Linux installed, but there just isn't enough software for it.

Now on the computers at school, I have winME(the new codename of millenium, as told by HardOCP.) running now. Quite stable, it is build 2615 i believe, not positive though.

[bdunn]

I work for a university. Is it legal for me to buy academic licenses for software that I use at home so that my documents can travel between work and home.

[hd581]

You're right Wiz, this thread probably belongs in PC Steals and Deals. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

[hai]

heh, it's quite likely that no one here ever doubted "Is piracy really stealing?".

Recently, I have read a few debates around piracy in other web sites. A few points made by them are worth to read.

For example, all softwares use knowledge in a widespread way, especially in Mathematical aspect. Can anyone claim that a new mathematical theory is less important than a new software? Why can't mathematicians apply for patent for their new theoies and force software companies to pay for using mathematical equations? Software companies have been "pirating" mathematical communities over 30 years and no one ever blame their stealing.

Another example is public library. We can treat public libraries as some sort of "piracy sites" against publishing industry. People can find some similarities among pirates and library readers. They are all pertaining to the access and usage of copyrighted materials without pay(or pay very little). The usage of libraries/pirating sites might reduce the sales of software companies/book publishers.

In conclusion, software companies are too smart to protect their benefit. Otherwise, bill gates wouldn't be the richest man.

[CMonster]

I just like owning all my software..I know its mine -chipbgt

Woah! If that were true I would buy every copy of Windows regardless of price. And I would be well within my rights to resale copies of it. The truth is that we are only leasing these programs under a very stringent lease agreement.

hai - GREAT point about the public library; I guess when it is in the public interest to have a literate populace, and for the greater good of soceity to educate those who otherwise cannot afford to buy books then a little "piracy" is being justified.

I think you have just opened up a whole new area for litigation against the government!!! Wow, and to think that at one time publishers felt that Libraries would actually cause an increase in book sales...kind of like giveing away a copy of Windows with computer stimulates software sales - - oh, and the demos on the CD are not advertising are they??????????

[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 02-04-2000).]

[CujoRbd]

i have never bought an OS and don't really plan to unless W2K is really good (and the price goes down)... my puter came with W95 and a free upgrade to W98, so i now have W98 on my comp, so i'm somewhat happy.... also, i have a copy of BeOS and am getting the new v5.0 whenever it comes out (for free, of course)...

regarding the pirating of software... i know that it is illegal, and i'm sure that all of you know as well that is illegal... justification of something illegal cannot be done... like someone else had mentioned earlier in the thread, if you "try before you buy" then that i believe is almost justified and sorta OK... it is still not honest, but if you plan to reimburse the company, then you are now legit... also as someone else had mentioned earlier, if you don't use the software much or at all then it is not so much of a crime, but still is dishonest... right now i have a burned copy of StarCraft sitting next to me, but i have registered for it and it is now legit and everything... that is what i'm talking about... if you plan to buy it in the near future, then that is OK, but if not, then it is completely dishonest and wrong... you cannot reason with that as it is what you know to be the actual truth...

i hope i did not offend anyone as i was merely speaking my convictions and personal feelings on the subject of pirating software... please do not feel like this a personal attack against anyone in this forum or anything, but rather as a general charge for honesty in this messed up world...


anywayz...

[chipbgt]

I just wanted to add I will never pay for win2k.....why? Cause I just won a copy of it through microsoft =) Its all about good karma people...they see you defending them, they send you free software....

[jad1097]

I see how it is just kiss a little ***** and win it, right? It was all part of the master plan was'nt it.If I had only known.J/K
That's alright I already have it.

[This message has been edited by jad1097 (edited 02-04-2000).]

[TonyMan]

I'm amazed at the idea that software companies OWE it to deliever demos and stores should take software back if you don't like it. How many CDs do you clowns buy that you take back because you didn't like it? How many cars have you taken back because you didn't like it? How much food do you return to the supermarket because you didn't like it. The problem folks is the snotty little jerks who feel every thing in life comes with a guarantee. look at your birth certificate, there isn't one on it!

Pirating software is no different than walking into a store & shoplifting. Just because someone made some money on it (and it wasn't you) doesn't justify theft. It's called capitalism, and some folks get a little rich along the way. I'd love to see these clowns trying to run a business. I'm sure they would be happy to have everyone steal their product or just bring it back 6 months later for a full refund.

[chipbgt]

TonyMan laying the smacketh down! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

Is this thread still going? I thought the "its wrong to pirate side" had already won http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

[jad1097]

Whatever Tony!
Sorry everyone.

[This message has been edited by jad1097 (edited 02-04-2000).]

[Mntsnow]

Just one simple question...How LONG is "sampling"? 1 day, 1 hour, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year, 1 life? lol I know that several people on this thread feel very strongly about which ever side of the coin they belong too. I for one work VERY hard for my money but I PAY for my software or is given to me from the software company because I'm qualified to receive it. (as in being a REGESTERED AND CERTIFIED OEM Systems Builder). I have had people bring systems to me to work on that is full of nothing but illegal software and they get pi$$ed off at me when I wont fix it. (well I make some of my money SELLING LEGAL software as well as SUPPORTING IT!) I tell them buy the software and I WILL help them. I just bet those that "pinch" the microsoft OS wouldnt dare call Microsoft and ask for help as they are "afraid" they might get BUSTED.

But thats just MY view on it. Personally I think those that use the "trial" excuse are wrong. If you dont like the "refund policy" that Microsoft has DONT BUY IT or TRY IT in the first place.

Mntsnow

Mntsnow

[mrdisco]

You're **** right software companies owe it to us to give us some kind of assurance that we're buying a quality product. It's called good business, and it's my right as a consumer.

I've never bought a car I didn't test drive. I've never bought a CD without hearing at least a couple of songs from it, whether on the radio or from a friend (unless it's someone I really like and I know is good). I have returned food to the supermarket when I realized it was bad after I bought it. I usually am able to check it for freshness before I buy it, though.

And yes, I have returned software to the store because I didn't agree with the license agreement. However, if I were to open the plastic and install it, and it conflicts with another software package or wasn't compatible with my hardware, I could bring it back to the store and they'd say "Oh well, tough sh*t." There's something inherently wrong with that business model.

Now I know you're probably saying that once I've opened the plastic, I could've made as many copies as I wanted before bringing it back to the store... and you're absolutely right. However, it should be the software distributors' responsibility to find a way around that problem without infringing on my rights.

[socalgal]

*sigh* clowns. snotty jerks. And worse. Real nice. Lovely.

TonyMan - I don't think anyone here is wearing clown makeup or are snotty jerks. If you didn't get a chance to read jad's post before I whacked the hell out of it, and to those who did, this is what happens when "name-calling" happens.

jad, I suggest you get a grip on your anger before you post another like the above. And I don't *think* that TonyMan was referring to you specifically, it sounded more like some generalized name-calling.

And I highly suggest that everyone remembers that this type of disrespect for each other is not going to continue here in these forums.

If you cannot argue intelligently, maturely, and with respect for one another, then don't post at all. This is not tolerated! You guys know better!

This was an interesting thread for various reasons. It's too bad it got out of hand.

And my diatribe is not meant for everyone who posted here, just those who are not willing or able to control themselves.

EDIT: I have re-opened this thread. I didn't want to close it in the first place. Now, PLEASE! Let's not name-call, taunt each other, threaten with mayhem, etc. etc. Or, I'll just whack the whole post next time instead of pecking through it!


[This message has been edited by socalgal (edited 02-05-2000).]

[jad1097]

MTnsnow to answer your question a fair amount of time would be 15-30 days. Just to see if you think it is worth the money.

Socalgal the only thing I can say is I made an ***** of myself. The next time I take my pain meds for my shoulder I will not post. I tend to overreact and act like a child when they kick in. Yes I do know better and it will not happen again.

[CMonster]

Mntsnow - how did you become a registered and certified OEM systems integrator? Maybe I should do the same, it sounds like a good way to get cheap/free software and legitimize my systems integration endeavors.

Did you have to take out a business license and resale permit? And did they make you post bond for tax liability in advance?

This is not a trick question - I am not trying to entrap you - I just was wondering if that might be something I am interested in.

Finally, is it worth the headaches financially - I mean can you make any real money at it?

[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 02-05-2000).]

[Mntsnow]

In short yes I have a Full-blown business. ie: business license, Tax license, ect. Once you get setup you have to contact Microsoft SB and get issued a # then yo have to get setup with one or some of the authorized wholesalers (this was almost the biggest pain of all...all the hoops you have to jump thru) THEN you have to BUY certain amounts of OS/software every quarter to stay active. (this is where my stand and views come into play in this thread) In short you DONT make great money but I do enough systems that I NEEDED to be able to include OS's to be able to compete with the other builders. as for becoming certified you have to take some tests...with you having your A+ you would not have a problem with this part.

Mntsnow

*dang fingers wont type what my mind wanted*

[This message has been edited by Mntsnow (edited 02-05-2000).]

[TonyMan]

Apologies to anyone who took my comments personally. Socogal & Jad are right & I fell into the anger a little to fast.

There's just some difference between test driving a car & sampling software. You don't buy a car for 30-60 days & then say take it back. There are sample CDs out there & reviews. As far as music CDs, sure you can here them on the radio or in the store, but you don't buy it & take it back 30 days later because you didn't like it. besides, with the rush to getting the latest game out, most gamers would have completed a game in 30-60 days and would be eligible for a refund. Eventually no one makes money & fewer new games come out.

I saw an earlier post saying that if the prices dropped, then pirating would stop. I sorta agree to a point. I remember when things like Lotus 123 & Excel were $300-$500. That price has dropped considerably. Most games I see on the shelf are right about $50. That's approximately 3 music CDs and not axactly prohibitive. I think part of the problem is that you can listen to those CDs for years, but once you've finished the game, it's over and the value seems lost. I'd say take it to a used software store & sell it. You could also buy your games from there also and save some bucks.

As far as the software not working on a system, I'm not sure how to address that. With the variations in components both installed and replaced by users (not to mention user inflicted problems- I admit I'm real familiar with them) it's amazing that software works on as many machines as it does. I cannot fathom how a software vendor can be respobsible for every possible configuration of machine out there. I would even cut Microsoft some slack here. It's got to be almost impossible to keep up with new hardware and have the oS work with it.

Anyway, I guess this subject has been beaten to death.

[Joel Kleppinger]

Just a few selected remarks:

First things first. Actually, Tony, I was about to buy a used car from a dealer in November. They gave me a week (7 days) to make sure I liked it - if not, they'd take it back and see if I liked another. In fact, when I decided I wasn't going to buy from a dealer, that dealer went ahead and practically gave me the keys to the car for a day... I felt like I couldn't ethically because I knew without doubt I wasn't buying from them. So even some used car dealers have ethics. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

Secondly, I agree with you on the gaming aspect - anyone who pirates any games (other than to try them out for a day or two) at all is a definite low-life. Between buying online, etc., I try never to pay more than $35 for a game - the best value ever being Need For Speed: High Stakes that I got for that price.

But think about this - I have several testbeds, and I occassionally set up one more for a day or so just for some different testing... am I supposed to buy a full Win9x license just for that? Not to mention that in these next two months, my planned cash outlay for software is about a thousand bucks between SoundForge 4.5, Cakewalk Pro Audio 9, Photoshop 5.5, and Windows 2000. (I'm still a student and I know how to work upgrade deals http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif).

There are a lot of gray areas out there and I think the software industry would do well to promote leniancy (and I think they have done that) in order to propogate use and knowledge of their software. Still, AT LEAST buy one copy of software... don't be a leech, but give something back.

Oh, and the price of music CDs should be cheaper. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif My price point is $9.99. They'd see sales go through the roof.

[hai]

Yeah, as someone mentioned before, this debate won't have a result. If people keep doing something insistently, there must be some reasons for them. Before those reasons get eliminated in practice, the action won't be stopped. It's not something you can get it fixed by saying "it's bad. You are wrong.".

Many people think death is bad. However, people are still dying every day before someone can adjust our biological clock. heh

[chipbgt]

I just wanted to add, I personally dont have any problem with downloading something to see if you like it, especially if the maker does not offer a demo. But to keep that once you decide you like it, thats stealing.

But now that I think about it, I have been using the shareware version of winzip 7.0 for WAAAAAAY past the 30 trail period...hmmmm. Maybe its time to register. Lord knows I use it everyday.

[jad1097]

chipbgt,
That is the point I was trying to make.I really think a 15-30 day trial period is fair.As I said before I would even be willing to pay a few bucks for a full demo.

BTW: I see you changed you mind since winning Win2K!Or was it when you ran WinZip and it said you have used this sooooo many days after the trial period.J/K

[This message has been edited by jad1097 (edited 02-05-2000).]

[hd581]

The way I see it, if Microsoft is offering source code for Windows NT to students for research purposes, that's a sign from them that playing around w/ it is ok, but running a business w/ it is not.
.
http://research.microsoft.com/programs/ntsrclicinfo.htm



[This message has been edited by hd581 (edited 02-06-2000).]

[chipbgt]

I havent changed my mind. I got my copy of Win2k free, and since my sysopt buddies were the one who pointed me towards the link, I think its only fair to share the spoils. Flimsy theory, maybe, But I am just sharing the free gift I got.

btw, where did you get your copy? http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

[jad1097]

I know I am just being sarcastic.
BTW, I do respect your opinion.
And my copy came from a friend of a friend to be truthful.

[chipbgt]

That post of mine came off a little harsh, but ya know how it is trying to convey subtlety online ..no hard feelings here at all http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[jad1097]

Here either.Yes,I do know how it is.

[hd581]

...and your wallet.

[Wiz]

lol, yes, that too!

[Wiz]

i really dont support an major labels out there music-wise. Napster all the way with that. On the other hand, i will gladly buy 10 copies of a band that i know is good but is unsigned. In fact, i have done that, and then i gave them away to friends, to get them hooked. I paid to help a band. Its the same way with software. I will pay $35 bucks for The Sims(great game), but i will not buy Office 2000 for $300 when i could get it for free.

I guess i just use my own ethics and morals to decide what is correct.