Compilation of lies taught in public school

[madthumbs]

*evolution is possible
*free speech in constitution but forced to say pledge to an idol (flag)
*life in the real world is harder than school
*milk is good for you

-please add any lies that you were taught in this place of learning

[Warthog]

*Discipline
----I got an hour after school detention for throwing a dime that didn't hit anyone (wasn't trying to). http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

I hate high school.

Warthog

[jadison]

I better leave this one alone http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

-jd-

[hd581]

Here's my favorite

*effort is more important than output

I agree that life in the real world is so much easier.

About evolution though, last I heard that was still a heavily debated topic. That makes it far from being factual which means it couldn't possibly be a lie.

[This message has been edited by hd581 (edited 05-25-2000).]

[chipbgt]

maybe you shouldnt have a thrown a dime in the first place, ever wonder about that? http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

[narayan]

I would add some things, but I am afraid that some may have been taught the lies and still believe them. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif
Ok, here we go...
Communism isn't all that bad.(yeah, right)
The real reason for Thanksgiving was a religious ceremony, not to thank the Indians.

The Mayflower Compact "In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord, King James, by the Grace of God, of England, France and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, e&.Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia...
And that America was not founded upon religious beliefs, which it was.

That's enough to get me in trouble (for now http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif)


[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 05-25-2000).]

[Warthog]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.... http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

It was my first ever detention (age 16) and I get one for throwing a dime. I suppose you're right, but I threw it 15ft. (not kidding) to a friend.

whatever...

Warthog

[narayan]

You could get suspended for something like that nowadays. CRIMINAL! http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

[daveleau]

Me being a Christian and a scientist (contradiction in terms in many circles) I could begin a debate on evolution...but I won't because this is not the time nor the place. I will say that I disagree with many ideas here though... http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif
Dave

[alondra]

education has given way to indoctronation, hmm misspelled, but I assure you when I left school 55 years ago I could spell it. back then we learned , spelling, writing, reading,arithmatic, and unlike a recent contestant on TV we knew that a compass needle pointed north. and without calculators.and computers. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[Missing the point]

ROFL ALONDRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[thekingofpain]

Ive heard its more healthy to throw a dime then "drop a dime"...

[Wiz]

students dont learn nearly enough nowadays, because its so much easier to plug it into a calculator. I cannto, fo rthe lif of me, get Gauss-Jordan's rule on Martix inverses, but i understand and can go thru calc 3 stuff in a breeze, ah well.

i hate matrices!

[narayan]

Personally, I wish that grade school was tougher than it was. I flew through it, like many of us do, with little challenge. I think the challenge is the most important thing in a young life to grow character and strength later on in life.

[codybear]

wanna know where all the **** started-at least in the usa...in 60 when they took God out of the classroom...look at what we have in our white house now..a thing that is incapable of keeping his zipper in check and the most ungodly man ever to hold office..our founding fathers were Godly men and never started anything just as it once was in our schools and now to wear a cross in the open can get you expelled but let some a##hole shoot our kids and what do all the power people want to do?? pray for them..sick society with almost no morals or values left and if the usa continues on the path we are on then we will only fulfill what has already been written and so it is our destiny to lead the world into moral degradation....we got queers in the white house and they have thier own national holiday now!!!....I do think I have stepped a little too far now but it is the truth and whatever you care to call them they are still the same thing..sick!!

as for education...the test that was taken to pass the 8th grade in the late 1800's was failed by over 75% of college freshmen in 1992...sad..

I am not prejudice but 'I do know' right from wrong and much of what is taught in our schools is wrong....

I'm gone now

one more fact and I am gone

if a woman aborts a baby and that baby happens to live for more than 2 hours outside the womb then by law she can claim the 'baby' on her income tax but when that same baby dies then she is not a murderer and has done no wrong....somebody argue that that is right....these are the things our children learn and see and read about and accept as normal

Alondra..you are correct it is indoctrination but now days it is called education..I am in enough trouble so....

[narayan]

Well stated, codybear.

[tonym]

Without trying to sound corny:

The purpose of education is to change empty minds into open ones!

*****ing and moaning about your schooling is only going to lead you to frustration. Whether you think so or not, there is knowledge and there are facts that you need to know to enmesh with the remainder of society to lead a productive life. Oh yeah, at one time we're all "Rebels Without A Clue", but when you start making committments like marriage and a career, then you'll appreciate some of the discipline that your education has imparted to you.

And don't forget the biggest lie of all: Computers are a great learning tool. No. Incorrect! That mushy grey stuff between your ears is a great learning tool. Computers and television are diversions and distractions: They are a tool, like a shovel. Take it from someone who's been a computer hardware designer since the late '80's. When the lights go out and there's no AC power, you'll be **** glad that you have the visceral skills necessary to learn and think and do!

Some of the school party line is indeed ****...the schooling process needs to treat students like Swiss Army Knives (SAK)-- they need to start with an empty handle and add more blades and tools and functions as they mature. Hopefully as an adult, they're loaded for bear for a rewarding career and future. Again, sounds corny, but if you take the SAK approach, in a pinch you'll never be left without a resource -- you!

The bottom line is enjoy school while you have it. Don't get so sophisticated that you attempt to grow up way too soon. School is there for you to make mistakes and socialize...it truly is a safety net. And for God's sake (and in all deference to alondra), learn (really, really learn) spelling, grammar, mathematics and some social skills. And listen to narayan, concentrate on your character...stand for something but also try to be diplomatic and gracious. People appreciate someone who is strong or someone who is wrong, but they rarely suffer someone who's both wrong and strong!

If you want to survive in the future, your prospective employer is going to want a minimum level of skill and knowledge from you. And if you want to put food in your mouth a few years and a couple of recessions down the road from now, learn as much as you can...and sweat the stuff that you don't get on the first try. A whole lot can be said for hard work and persistence!

Good luck...


Tony

[alondra]

tonyn, may I make a statement on one of your points "learn, really learn' an excellent point, but I dont blame the students as much as the school system, at least not here in California, here we have watched the experiments with "new math" and "sight reading" (we hired a tutor for phonics for our kids) and social engineering. promotion if they have learned or not, then they go to college and have to take remedial reading and math classes, also many of the teachers are not qualified to teach. there is a shortage, in the business world of people with a reasonable education. I recently had change coming of $2.24 I gave the clerk a penny and she had no clue what to do.

[hd581]

Well said Tonym!

You made a good point about enjoying it while it lasts. I remember complaining about how much fun school was when I was working. Now that I'm in school, I complain about how easy work was. We'll never be happy if we don't realize the good things that we do have.

[tonym]

alondra,

How well I know the lunacy of the education system in America! My wife and I are childless, but we're very involved in the community and with the "education" of kids.

My wife was a teacher about 15 years ago. Grades 1-3. She was constantly frustrated by a clueless administration with arcane rules and puzzling curricula. Kids phonetically sounding out words and being told that KAT (cat) or dawg (dog) was close enough! And even worse, the following grades never corrected many of these misconceptions and in fact it was wholly discouraged. And there is no enforcable discipling. Third graders telling her to go BLANK herself! Parents that decry "What am I going to do about him/her??".

After 5 years of this she went on to be a Children's Librarian. She gets to work with kids in a developmental way, but without the curriculum restrictions!

I get to see the fallout from our wonderful education system as I tutor kids in math, science and history (at the library). The kids that fall behind aren't stupid or inept...they're trapped in a system that favors the "special" and concentrates on the trouble makers. Most kids that are having some troubles grasping a subject just need a different spin on the explanation and reassurance!

And most schools are falling over each other to be politically correct. Revising history as necessary and omitting vast periods and important in the history of the world and our country. Most kids think Pearl Harbor is in Maine! If we don't study the past, we're doomed to repeat it!!! At the expense of the kids.

I could go on, but there's no sense in it. The system won't change. If I had kids, I would either send them to parochial school or home-school them. Period. We're all pouring a lot of money down the education rat-hole and yielding very little to the kids that pass through. It's short-changing them and potentially putting them at a competitive disadvantage with the rest of the world. We build impressive structures, architecural marvels, with better computer systems than most businesses and air conditioning and sports fields that would make colleges envious. We feel good because we have good schools. But the kids don't really want or need the frills...they need the facts! I think we (as a society) do this out of guilt because we know that our society has changed to the determent of children (in general) and that the content of school is deficient (as compared to the "container").

Yes, there are good public schools out there, but until we achieve 99.9999% uniformity then it's meaningless to us as a country.

Tony

[tantone]

I've been laughing through most of the previous posts.

In the end, I FIRMLY believe that it is not the responsibility of the teacher to teach, but of the student to learn. And it is the responsibility of the parents to instill in their children the importance of education.

I got this joke today, and it fit one of the posts above.

It is the year 2000 and Noah lives in the United States. The Lord speaks to Noah and says, "In one year, I am going to make it rain and cover the whole earth with water until all is destroyed. But I want you to save the righteous people and two of every kind of living thing on the earth.

Therefore, I am commanding you to build an Ark." In a flash of lightning, God delivered the specifications for an Ark. Fearful and trembling, Noah took the plans and agreed to build the Ark. "Remember," said the Lord, "You must complete the Ark and bring everything aboard in one year."

Exactly one year later, a fierce storm cloud covered the earth and all the seas
of the earth went into a tumult. The Lord saw Noah sitting in his front yard weeping. "Noah," He shouted, "where is the Ark?" "Lord, please forgive me!" cried Noah. "I did my best, but there were big problems. First, I had to get a permit for construction and your plans did not comply with the codes. I had to hire an engineering firm and redraw the plans. Then I got into a fight with OSHA over whether or not the Ark needed a fire sprinkler system and floatation devices. Then my neighbor objected, claiming I was violating zoning ordinances by building the Ark in my front yard, so I had to get a variance from the city planning commission. I had problems
getting enough wood for the Ark, because there was a ban on cutting tree to protect the Spotted Owl. I finally convinced the U.S. Forest Service that I needed the wood to save the owls. However,the Fish and
Wildlife Service won't let me catch any owls. So,no owls. The carpenters formed
a union and went out on strike. I had to negotiate a settlement with the National Labor Union. Now I have 16 carpenters on the Ark, but still no owls. When I started rounding up the other animals, I got sued by
an animal rights group. They objected to me only taking two of each kind aboard. Just when I got the suit dismissed, the EPA notified me that I could not complete the Ark without filing an environmental impact
statement on your proposed flood. They didn't take very kindly to the idea that
they had no jurisdiction over the conduct of the Creator of the universe.

Then the Army Corps of Engineers demanded a map of the proposed new flood plan. I sent them a globe. Right now, I am trying to resolve a complaint filed with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission that I am practicing discrimination by not taking godless, unbelieving people aboard!

The IRS has seized my assets, claiming that I'm building the Ark in preparation to flee the country to avoid paying taxes. I just got a notice from the state that I owe them some kind of user tax and failed to register the Ark as a "recreational water craft." Finally, the ACLU got the courts to
issue an against further construction of the Ark, saying that since God is flooding the earth, it is a religious event and therefore, unconstitutional.

I really don't think I can finish the Ark for another 5 or 6 years!" Noah wailed.

The sky began to clear, the sun began to shine and the seas began the calm. A rainbow arched across the sky. Noah looked up
hopefully. "You mean you are not going to destroy the earth, Lord." "No," said the Lord
sadly. "I don't have to. The government already has.

[pickel]

Madthumbs, Get a life, boy! If you know there lies and you don't believe them , go on to things you do believe and tryto change things for the better. You're gonna find out that in life mostly nothing is as you perceive it and you have to deal with on a level that keeps your blood presure in a tolerable range.
And as far as the Flag comment goes ,this is our country . There is good and bad but we have to stand up and beleive we have the best of all there is to offer on this planet. Many have died and been maimed for that peice of cloth. It REPRESENTS the ideas we hold and
chresh .it is not an IDOL. To me , in your immature way, you have no respect for the countryman who have gone before and are being misguided thru a complete lack of information
and concern for finding the truth. Buy yourself a book on American history, go see a couple of good ole WW2 movies, like" They were Exspendable" w/ John Wayne. See what others have done so you have the opportunity to be able to Pledge alleigence to our Flag.
But then again , if you like don't the system , you can try to change it or go somewhere else where you have more free speech. Know somewhere off hand??????? Go see a Vet this weekend at the VA hospital and thank him/her for the price they paid for all of us. Find one with an arm blown off or one just this side of reality and tell them why the Flag is an idol. If you stand up for what you seem to beleive, report back and let me know what they had to say. Would have loved to get people with (mis)conceptions of reality aboard ship and shown you the REAL WORLD!!

the pickel

[KillerBug]

"School lunch is good lunch"
"We do not tolerate racism"
"Seperation of church and state, now repeate after me of get suspended...One nation under GOD..."

How about this...
I had a tape which contained profanity back in like 3rd grade, not like crazy rofanity either, like one word per song average, 3 days suspention of having "Lued materials on school grounds"

When I was 8 I drew a man with a gun in the margin of a paper, just a doodle, I got interigated on weather or not I wanted to kill anyone for 2 hours!

[Titan]

With a name like that, what did you expect? (Just kidding, of course).

[alondra]

Hmmm the spelling in some of these posts?
duh and we are speaking of education. ?

[Faramir]

THANK YOU PICKEL!!!! maybe what needs to be taught in school is the difference between what an idol is and what a symbol is and why this symbol (our Flag) is so important to so many of us

[alondra]

stick around, sooner or later the ACLU will demand the flag be removed from schools on the grounds that it offends some students.

[Wiz]

I dont think having God in schools makes any difference. I think having kids who respect their parents is more important.

THink about it, if kids were had any respect for their parents, nothing would everhappen, because these kids would see that his parents would be hurt if he killed 15 people in a mcdonalds.

I have always been pretty law abiding simply because i know i would disappoint my parents if i were not. I hav too much respect for them.

Just my opinion on this...

[alondra]

tonyn spoke of the kid who told her to blank herself. when I was 18 working a construction job I mouthed off the f. word to an adult, two years later when I went in the Army I was still missing a front tooth. needless to say I never made that error again http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif even to this day neither I or my sons will use this language in the presence of ladies, women, girls. much of the problem is lack of disipline. teachers have to put up with gargage from trash raised by trash. and have no recourse, there is a decline in moral standards, modesty, courtesy, self responcibility, sad. boys were raised to be gentlemen, girls to be ladies. recently Robin Williams, whos acting I admire, used the F word in his show before the President, Vice President their wives and the mixed audience.

[flashngcurser]

Killerbug, "separation of church and state" has never been in the constitution. The idea that the wording "separation of church and state" is in the constitution is pure urban myth. This relates to many other posts claiming that our screwl system is failing our children. However, our government is NOT allowed to create a church, like the Church of England for instance.

BTW: side note, education majors scored worse than engineering majors in lanuage skills. Also, they were 2 to last over all.

PS: My wife is working on her masters in education, so I just love to bring up the above fact. hehe

[tantone]

OK Alondra. I have to say something about that. Do you think that Robin Williams should change his act just because he's in front of the President? And we are talking about the same president now, right? The one who had an intern go to town on his unit in the oval office? If Slick-Willy and his entourage are offended by Robin Williams, they're disillusioned about who they are. Robin's probably more clean than any politician.

In response to Wiz...
We have as many f***ed up parents out there as we do kids. Parents that don't give a rats *** what their kids do, as long as they still qualify for welfare and food stamps. On the other end of the $$ spectrum, we have the parents that don't care what their kids are doing as long as it doesn't interfere with their spa/massage appointment and their tennis lessons at the club.

You have to take a driving test to get a license, you have to have good grades/SAT/ACT and sometimes a good essay on why you should be accepted to a college, and we won't even bring up Med School, but all you have to do get knocked up to have a child.

[Faramir]

The story I read said there were kids in the audience... didn't dear ole Tipper have something to say a while back about bad language in songs? I guess it doesn't matter anyway, not many people care what that bunch has done and are still doing to the Office of the Presidency.

[alondra]

you may have a point, he tailored his show to his audience. I however have respect for the office, unlike the present occupant, inspite of the general moral decline, I find it hard to believe that none of the audience was offended.
I do believe he would have changed his show if before, Harry Truman or Jimmy Carter or Ronald Regan.

[This message has been edited by alondra (edited 05-27-2000).]

[MadMatt]

I'm not even sure where to begin - there is so much in this thread that is just plain terrifying...

The only thing I'd like to say is please don't try to foist your beliefs on others by trying to present them as fact. We all have a unique perspective that has been shaped by a lifetime of experiences. Closed minded, self righteous proselytizing is a sure way to turn people off to your way of thinking - this is just common sense.

This space was occupied with rebuttals to specific comments made by certain individuals. I have deleted them in the interest of civility and good manners.

[weestro]

*Columbus discovered America*
(1 Ex: the Vikings landed this way 600 yrs prior)

*George Washington was a great leader*
(He was truly militarily weak)

Various 'truths' about historical individuals of influence are biased and fabricated accordingly!

[Ashley Rimmer]

Having read all the posts, and as much as I love the Americans. I'm glad I had a english education.
Best regards
Ash

[U-96]

weestro, I think you'll find the natives probably discovered America. In the same way that the Aboriginies had a pretty good idea that Australia existed http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

"There is one god"
Maybe someone can mathematically prove that 3=1? And if this is the case, why is it necessary to bar us from worshipping others?
And if we are barred from idolatry, who is that guy on the cross in our churches?

"Great Britain" ho ho ho ho

"Capitalism is good" unless you live outside it...

"the streets aren't as safe as they used to be..."
YOU HAD TWO WORLD WARS AND 50 MILLION PEOPLE DIED!!! YOU CALL THAT SAFE!!!!???? Sheesh.

U-96 needs Prozac

PS Haha narayan, your Thanksgiving stuff reminds me of that excellent scene in Addams Family Values when Wednesday protests about the rape of the native homelands and burns Sarah Miller at the stake. I have rarely laughed so much...

[jad1097]

Are you trying to say you are Bypolar or manic depressive? By your prozac comment?

There are many people in this world that require this medication to live a semi-normal life due to a chemical imbalance!

[pickel]

Jad: We all remember Jimi Hendricks , don't we...........

the pickel

[U-96]

haha thanks for your concern jad, but as far as I am aware, I am not clinically depressed. I just have episodes when I am occasionally meaner and more more cynical than usual.
We used to call it "getting out of the wrong side of bed in the morning" http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

It often manifests itself after BSODs, HDD crashes etc....

U-96mg

[Prospero]

As off topic as some of the earlier posts.

I support the theory of evolution, and they can have my opposable thumbs when they cut them from my cold dead hands.

[tantone]

In response to MadMatt...

Of course...what conversation could be without the one person who has to stand up and announce that they are not going to sink as low as the rest and make any comments or retorts.

With your words in mind, in my OPINION, why write just to say that you had written some stuff but that you erased it for reasons of civility. I was under the impression that discussions such as this one were quite civil. I mean, I'm not telling you my opinion then crushing your skull with some medieval weapon when I hear you don't agree. We're all sitting at our computers having a "discussion."

And as far as manners are concerned, I never knew that having manners meant that you couldn't express an opinion. That doesn't sound like manners. That sounds like repression.

If ya got something to say, speak up! Some of us are actually interested to hear other opinions. That's what makes this General Discussion forum so interesting.

[Serge]

Is America a Christian Nation?

The U.S. Constitution is a secular document. It begins, "We the people," and contains no mention of "God" or "Christianity." Its only references to religion are exclusionary, such as, "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust" (Art. VI), and "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (First Amendment). The presidential oath of office, the only oath detailed in the Constitution, does not contain the phrase "so help me God" or any requirement to swear on a bible (Art. II, Sec. 7).

If we are a Christian nation, why doesn't our Constitution say so? In 1797 America made a treaty with Tripoli, declaring that "the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." This reassurance to Islam was written under Washington's presidency, and approved by the Senate under John Adams.

The First Amendment To The U.S. Constitution:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."

What about the Declaration of Independence?

We are not governed by the Declaration. Its purpose was to "dissolve the political bands," not to set up a religious nation. Its authority was based on the idea that "governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed," which is contrary to the biblical concept of rule by divine authority. It deals with laws, taxation, representation, war, immigration, and so on, never discussing religion at all.

The references to "Nature's God," "Creator," and "Divine Providence" in the Declaration do not endorse Christianity. Thomas Jefferson, its author, was a Deist, opposed to orthodox Christianity and the supernatural.

What about the Pilgrims and Puritans?

The first colony of English-speaking Europeans was Jamestown, settled in 1609 for trade, not religious freedom. Fewer than half of the 102 Mayflower passengers in 1620 were "Pilgrims" seeking religious freedom. The secular United States of America was formed more than a century and a half later. If tradition requires us to return to the views of a few early settlers, why not adopt the polytheistic and natural beliefs of the Native Americans, the true founders of the continent at least 12,000 years earlier?

Most of the religious colonial governments excluded and persecuted those of the "wrong" faith. The framers of our Constitution in 1787 wanted no part of religious intolerance and bloodshed, wisely establishing the first government in history to separate church and state.

Do the words "separation of church and state" appear in the Constitution?

The phrase, "a wall of separation between church and state," was coined by President Thomas Jefferson in a carefully crafted letter to the Danbury Baptists in 1802, when they had asked him to explain the First Amendment. The Supreme Court, and lower courts, have used Jefferson's phrase repeatedly in major decisions upholding neutrality in matters of religion. The exact words "separation of church and state" do not appear in the Constitution; neither do "separation of powers," "interstate commerce," "right to privacy," and other phrases describing well-established constitutional principles.

What does "separation of church and state" mean?

Thomas Jefferson, explaining the phrase to the Danbury Baptists, said, "the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions." Personal religious views are just that: personal. Our government has no right to promulgate religion or to interfere with private beliefs.

The Supreme Court has forged a three-part "Lemon test" (Lemon v. Kurtzman, 1971) to determine if a law is permissible under the First-Amendment religion clauses.

A law must have a secular purpose.
It must have a primary effect which neither advances nor inhibits religion.
It must avoid excessive entanglement of church and state.
The separation of church and state is a wonderful American principle supported not only by minorities, such as Jews, Moslems, and unbelievers, but applauded by most Protestant churches that recognize that it has allowed religion to flourish in this nation. It keeps the majority from pressuring the minority.

What about majority rule?

America is one nation under a Constitution. Although the Constitution sets up a representative democracy, it specifically was amended with the Bill of Rights in 1791 to uphold individual and minority rights. On constitutional matters we do not have majority rule. For example, when the majority in certain localities voted to segregate blacks, this was declared illegal. The majority has no right to tyrannize the minority on matters such as race, gender, or religion.

Not only is it unAmerican for the government to promote religion, it is rude. Whenever a public official uses the office to advance religion, someone is offended. The wisest policy is one of neutrality.

Isn't removing religion from public places hostile to religion?

No one is deprived of worship in America. Tax-exempt churches and temples abound. The state has no say about private religious beliefs and practices, unless they endanger health or life. Our government represents all of the people, supported by dollars from a plurality of religious and non-religious taxpayers.

Some countries, such as the U.S.S.R., expressed hostility to religion. Others, such as Iran ("one nation under God"), have welded church and state. America wisely has taken the middle course--neither for nor against religion. Neutrality offends no one, and protects everyone.

The First Amendment deals with "Congress." Can't states make their own religious policies?

Under the "due process" clause of the 14th Amendment (ratified in 1868), the entire Bill of Rights applies to the states. No governor, mayor, sheriff, public school employee, or other public official may violate the human rights embodied in the Constitution. The government at all levels must respect the separation of church and state. Most state constitutions, in fact, contain language that is even stricter than the First Amendment, prohibiting the state from setting up a ministry, using tax dollars to promote religion, or interfering with freedom of conscience.

What about "One nation under God" and "In God We Trust?"

The words, "under God," did not appear in the Pledge of Allegiance until 1954, when Congress, under McCarthyism, inserted them. Likewise, "In God We Trust" was absent from paper currency before 1956. It appeared on some coins earlier, as did other sundry phrases, such as "Mind Your Business." The original U.S. motto, chosen by John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson, is E Pluribus Unum ("Of Many, One"), celebrating plurality, not theocracy.

Isn't American law based on the Ten Commandments?

Not at all! The first four Commandments are religious edicts having nothing to do with law or ethical behavior. Only three (homicide, theft, and perjury) are relevant to current American law, and have existed in cultures long before Moses. If Americans honored the commandment against "coveting," free enterprise would collapse! The Supreme Court has ruled that posting the Ten Commandments in public schools is unconstitutional.

Our secular laws, based on the human principle of "justice for all," provide protection against crimes, and our civil government enforces them through a secular criminal justice system.

Why be concerned about the separation of church and state?

Ignoring history, law, and fairness, many fanatics are working vigorously to turn America into a Christian nation. Fundamentalist Protestants and right-wing Catholics would impose their narrow morality on the rest of us, resisting women's rights, freedom for religious minorities and unbelievers, gay and lesbian rights, and civil rights for all. History shows us that only harm comes of uniting church and state.

America has never been a Christian nation. We are a free nation. Anne Gaylor, president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, points out: "There can be no religious freedom without the freedom to dissent."

---------------------------------------

Nontract No. 6. Published by the Freedom From Religion Foundation, Inc. (http://www.ffrf.org/), PO Box 750, Madison WI 53701. This nontract may be purchased (http://www.ffrf.org/order.html) for $3.00/doz., or 10¢ apiece for 100 or more.

Please do not distribute (printed) copies of this document in this form.

[This message has been edited by Serge (edited 05-31-2000).]

[narayan]

The Mayflower Compact (part of it)... "In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord, King James, by the Grace of God, of England, France and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, e&.Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia...

~Honor thy father and thy mother
~Thou shalt not kill
~Thou shalt not commit adultery
~Thou shalt not steal
~Thou shalt not bear false witness againt thy neighbor
~Thou shalt not covet anything that is thy neighbors (greed)

These are all-around good guidelines for anyone to follow, regardless of religion. God has been left out of the Constitution for the idea of freedom of religion. However, our nation's belliefs are founded in Christianity. I am not saying that we should have a national religion, but that the founding fathers were God-fearing men. History is not being taught, only revisionism.

[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 05-31-2000).]

[Serge]

narayan: please re-read the part of my previous post titled
What about the Pilgrims and Puritans?

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[This message has been edited by Serge (edited 05-31-2000).]

[MadMatt]

Tantone - I apologize if my comment seemed pompous. I did refrain from posting some comments I had written and I stand by that decision.

What I was going to post were reactionary, poorly thought out and mean spirited responses to posts that were themselves reactionary, poorly thought out and mean spirited. I had a moment of clarity and realized that my post would only help fuel the fire of ignorance and intolerance.

I will post a more reasoned reply in the near future.

Serge - Excellent post! The logic is divine! ;]

[MadMatt]

Narayan - 'God-fearing men' indeed:


Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear. -- Thomas Jefferson

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind. -- Thomas Paine

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved - the Cross. Consider what calamaties that engine of grief has produced! -- John Adams

Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, canot be a true system. -- Thomas Paine

During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorrance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. -- James Madison

When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one. -- Benjamin Franklin

Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law. -- Thomas Paine

It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. -- Thomas Jefferson

[bdunn]

I went to a small town public school thru the 8th grade and then to a private Jewish high school follwed by a state university.

One day in third grade we stopped saying the pledge of alliegance in class. When I asked I was told that the church of Jehovas Witnesses sued the school district over it saying claiming that it was flag worship and unacceptable. The school lost that case.

Later in 8th grade the state allowed a voluntary moment of silence as a result of a compromise in a battle over school prayer. Myself and several others were disciplined for not participating in this voluntary event. It was later discontinued by order of a higher court.

Evolution was never much an issue except for the BIG BRIGHT RED disclaimer stampped inside the front cover of every science book we used throughout grade school.

Then there was a book controversy. Folks wanted to take The Diary of Anne Frank and Huck Finn and a few others for their various reasons.

Private high school was free from that nonesense.

A state university has its own politics to deal with. At a university which was about 90% male at that time anyway title 9 could have been implimented better.