Should I pay for software ? (answer to Scott )

[^EvilDragon^]

I guess such kind of topic had numerous discussions, but it's never too much http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

In recent discussion on trial versions of software Scott wrote: "Cracks can be had, but shareware authors work hard and deserve to be paid. Shareware is cheap too, buy it."

Well ... there're few considerations that can be put against this.

1. We all know what's going on in the industry and software developers are last ones who I feel sorry about for being underpaid. Just look at the statistics. Microsoft for instance earned more than 600000$ per developer last year (I bet they was paid in accordance). If you see an underpaid programmer, publish his picture on CNN - it will be world wide sensation. The case is opposite. Many quite low professional level programmers are paid better than much higher level professionals in other industries ... well ... i know ... market is market.

2. There're various business models for software distribution. For my opinion, the most decent is to allow free personal use of the software, while demanding a pay for commercial use.

3. Just look at the picture. The software situation is quite an absurd one. Why, the hell, whould I pay 900$ for MS Office, if I just occasionally use it at home and mostly for reading. Many comanies have the following approach: They release reader application as a freeware, while editing application costs money.
For instance, Adobe (acrobat, frame maker). If you have paid for every shareware proggy installed on your computer and used couple of times in a lifetime, you would shell off thousands bucks. I wonder if shareware authors would prefer that their programs would be purhcased, but used by some 20 people in the world.

4. It's cheap ? Well, some of the sharewar titles cost more than 100 bucks. Even a "cheap" 30$ shareware is not chip all over the world. It's not my case, but I've seen things. This "cheap" software is one-month salary worth in China and Thailand for instance (at least of the same order).

I myself belong to the industry, so I can't be blamed for being biased.

Thanks for your time.
Wow. It's the longest post I've ever put here http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[CMonster]

"Walking through forest of concrete apartments.. laugh at the monkies who live in their dark tents...eating their nuts saving their raisins for Sunday.."

The majority of my country's population are poor - I say it's time for a revolution! ((said in jest - Oh Internet monitoring NSA/CIA/FBI)) Come comrads, let us tear down the estates of the rich opressors and divide the spoils amoung us!! It is time that the doctor, scientist, software engineer, plumber, mechanic, and ditch digger all are paid equally for their contribution. "Profit" is a dirty word, and with a little effort we can purge the scourge from our midst.

..Of course we must impose "state" ownership of all resources and establish a strong millitary government in order to make sure everyone follows our lofty ideals and keeps the rules. .. and 'Ve must proteckt from outside invaders who seek to reinfeckt us with evil capitalism and profit driven economy.

We must also suffer a little now in order to defeat this demonic foe, untill at last we subdue the world and make everywhere exactly like us. Then at last we will have a true worker's paradise, everyone will be poor, everyone will have health care (but there will be severe shortages of medicine) with liberty and justice for all.

In the meantime, get back in line comrad, and toilet paper will be issued according to your ration cards...

[SoopaStar]

This has got to be the most ignorant thing I have ever heard of!! Where do you work? McDonalds??
1) Microsoft may make that much money, but they still loose money to people pirating. And I don't mean the people in groups like PWA or CLASS or other 'Warez' groups. Say Jimmy buys Windows 2000 Pro, well, what if Billy wants it? Jimmy just gives him his--oops! Thats $179 M$ just did not make. Underpaid programmers? Hell yeah! there are TONS of them! Do you knwo that people in the IT Industry frequently work 60-80 hours a week? do you think that is worth $60,000 a year? I sure as hell don't. In Washington State and The Silicon valeey there is a plethora of single, rich men. Wierd huh? No, actually its not. That is because these guys don't have TIME to date!! Don't believe me? I can give you NUMEROUS magazine articles about it. They are paid so well because they are in such shortage!
2) Yeah, that sounds like a **** good idea for you doesn't it? I'm sure not too many home-owners would argue against free software. But seeing as how 90% of business have some form of pirated software on their computer systems, I think that would be awefully hard to do. Reduced price to home users maybe, but what about those home users who use teh software (such as MS office) for working at home? hrmmmmm

3) Why would you pay $900 for MS office? Obviously it may have features you don't need--thats why you get MS Works! OR just get the standard edition of Office! If al you are using it for is reading documents or typing letters to your friends, then use wordpad for gawd sakes! All because Joe, Tim and Larry have Office 2000 Professional, doesn't mean that you need it.
Adobe Acrobat reader is Freeware. Shareware is software that you can use for a trial-period and then are required to register it or erase it. Adobe gives out acrobat reader for free--not only because it is conveient--but because it promotes their format of docs and makes you demand that other people use it. Its not because they like you as a person.
4) the majority of shareware is cheap. You pay for features and what the author feels he put into the work. The majority of shareware you find at shareware.com or other sites is done by one or a small group of programmers, not by some huge company. Or, you find shareware-demo versions of more expensive packages--did you ever think of WHY they give otu demo software? Its so when you shell out the $100+ dollars you know exactly what you are getting. Then you can't say "Oh ****, This is not what I thought it was..I wonder if I can return it".
If a $30 software package is a whole months salary for a person, then maybe they shouldn't have a computer--or, how did they get one in the first place?

I have recently purchased two great software (shareware) packages from www.famatech.com (http://www.famatech.com) and another one called Essential Net Tools. Bother are excellent and I was impressed by the program. I even told that to the programmer as I paid for it with my credit card.
Cause, ya know, a pat on teh back gives a good feeling, but it sure doesn't pay the bills.
I am not typing this as a 'flame' message, but ****, that emssage sounded ignorant.

Paul C.
Veterinary Software Publishing, Inc.

[SoopaStar]

LOL! http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif Cmonster! that was great! Let us raise our glasses of Vodka and cheer for Stallin! Communism shall rise again!

(NOT)

Paul

[^EvilDragon^]

wow ... soopaStar ... wait I'll get a tissue to dry my tears.
it's 12:30 AM and i'm still at work, so don't tell me how hard hi-tech people work.
I have a friend who works for Microsoft. Yeah, poor guy earns 60000 $ a year (aside to 125000$ a year with stock options ). POOR GUY!!! I'm not envous, cuz i have no reason to complain myself.
Let me tell you something ... programmers who earn 60000$ a year ...hmm ... Really good guys earn a lot more (sorry if I have offended someone, but ask people who know what's goin' on in the industry), either in salary or having a stock options.
The ignorant thing to say was that people who earn 30$ a month should not have a computer. I would say in return, programmers who complain on the small salary should consider another carrier, and that would be more politically correct (if we have got to this opoint).
I myself pay for most of the software i use. The MS Office I have at work (perfectly legally purchased as well as frame maker and lot of other shareware) so I dont really need it at home. But what about people who don't ? To write document you can use Wordpad, but if you want to read Office 2000 document ? Should someone pay that huge money for couple of such an occasions ?
gimme a break!
most of the software companies will earn enough just selling to commercial customers (except for leisure software, as games), if their software products are GOOD !!! Do you expect software comanies producing **** to earn a lot, because "that's the way it should be" ? As i said, at work i have a computer loaded with quite a bunch of all kind of GOOD software, which is legally purchased. As i said I don't feel sorry for fat guys who want to get fatter.

[oxOGradiusOxo]

Once again I remind, why do some people just ACHE for conflict?

[brandon184]

Your exactly right.. Programmers do not earn a lot. My dad only works 45 - 55 hours a week and earns $600,000 a year. But guess why programmers do not make that MUCH money? Well, a major factor that comes into play is PIRACY.. You seem to forget that.

Yes, and if you do need that feature packed everything of everything $900 version of Office, then you SHOULD pay that much. Because everything of everything thats in it, was created by programmers.

And, if piracy wasn't holding these companies back from lowering their prices, that ultra version of MS Office you want, wouldn't cost $900. But MS has to make up from pirated software somehow, now don't they?

Also - Who says programming/working for these tech companies is easy? I could work 4 hours a week and still have a really tough job, where I have to bust my @ss, to make a living!

As for the "poor people shouldn't have a computer in the first place." comment - I partly agree with that. When you a buy a computer, you have to be prepared to PAY for all the software that it needs.

I NEVER hand a cd over to a friend, so they can put a copy on their system. If you paid $400 for it, then you just gave your friend a $400 program... for free!

My 2 cents.

- Brandon

[^EvilDragon^]

You're nice guy oxOGradiusOxo http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif but you're graphics designer ... you don't understand it ... ask soopaStar, he will explain you, that you're loosing a lot of money letting people to surf web-sites you have designed without paying for it http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

[ghostface]

not that i support piracy or anything, but i doubt that if we eradicated it MS would be dropping the $$$ they charge for the apps. poor programmers or not (btw, i envy the starting salaries of my IT friends so someone's getting the loot), i doubt billy gankin' bobbie's super elite word 2001 rev 4 is taking food off of anyone's table.

[oxOGradiusOxo]

I'm sure there are a lot of sides to the conflict that I don't understand.
I'd hate to have someone rip off my artwork and claim it's their own. I actually had that happen once. The guy took a photo I did for a contest, copied it, entered it, and won (3rd place, but anwyay) I was so mad, I could have spit fire. I could almost feel the same for programmers, but I'm just a poor individual. For example:
Mircosoft Midtown Madness - Sold 100,805 copies in 1999
(100,805) * $39.99 = $4,031,191.95
Think of what they make on $300 a copy for Win2k (then for yearly updates)
Hasbro RollerCoaster Tycoon - Sold 719,535 copies in 1999
(719,535) * $39.99 = $28,774,204.65

I know in perspective for a company, this might not be alot of money, but it's just ONE game, ONE product.
Piracy will ALWAYS be here. Companies will come up with new ways to combat it, and people will come up with new ways around it.

Especially as of late with the deal with Napster (please, not another Napster thread) artists/programmers/whoever claim it's all about protecting their "rights" but IT'S ALL ABOUT THE ALLMIGHTY DOLLAR!

[SoopaStar]

I did not mean that people who are less fortunate than others do not deserve computers; what I simply ment to say is, how did they afford it (hypothetically). If someone is earning $30 a month over-seas (as in NON-USA), where the price of a cheap-sub $1000 PC in US can exceed 3 times in their country, what are they doing buying that computer?
I personally feel that everyone int eh world should have a computer. Hell, I have 3 in my room alone, and there are 9 or 10 others in my house!
And, as for gradius not worrying about that, hell, copyright infringment online for graphics is as common as software now-a-days. When you can right click on a picture and save it--thats easier than pointing your FTP application to a warez ftp site.
When I was refering to the $60k a year, it was for entry-level.

Paul

[davey]

dragon arent you contradicting yourself slightly with your reply to oxo??
I kind of agreed with your origonal post now im all confused!!(I liked the bit in oxo's profile,running with scissors though..tee hee)as for the communism skit and reply....whooaah...rattle..rattle that's the ghost of Mcarthy risin again

[oxOGradiusOxo]

I also just wanted to say, that just b/c these companies are making a fortune selling software DOES NOT give you the right to rip them off.
Just because my neighbor two streets down owns a silver corvette and a new shiny blue boxster, DOESN'T mean I can just hotwire his car, drive it around town, and tell everyone it's mine. Stealing is stealing and wrong is wrong. At least from my limited point of view.

I buy software from companies I feel have earned my $. For the rest, well... there's always Flea-Bay http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[davey]

oh and soopastar...us poor folk afford our computers by working our b*****ks off for them thanks.

[ghostface]

your neighbor wouldn't be a programmer would he? http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[SoopaStar]

That is not my point Davey. Yeah, I work for a software company. No, I do not program, no I don't even make clost to $60k a year. I could only dream of that. In fact, right now I have two jobs. Used to be three, but working 7 days a week 60+ hours and trying to goto college just didn't work out like how I wanted it to. In fact, Last year I only grossed $15,000 last year.
I have to sponge off my parents until I graduate college in a year. Don't whine to me about working hard.

Paul

[jad1097]

Hmm lets see I am a mear construction worker(electrician) and my base salary is approx. $42,000 a year. Now add in OT and I will gross $55,000+. The people who work 60+ hrs a week and are on a fixed salary are not the smartest people IMO because they end up screwing themselves because an employer will take advantage of them. Now if they were paid by the hour the employer would hire another person for every two or three employees because he would not have to pay the OT @1.5X's. .

I just thought I would clarify that a bit because I feel that way to many people screw themselves and others by accepting those terms of employment.

Well said CM.

[ghostface]

true, but some people aspire to be in management and that's all about dealing with salary. for better or worse.

[This message has been edited by ghostface (edited 05-23-2000).]

[brandon184]

Whether you are a programmer or you aren't a programmer. Whether you work for a computer company or whether you don't.. Or even whether you don't have a computer at all.. Piracy is still an illgeal and immoral thing.

Thats all there is to it.

[customride]

not that I'm for piracy...but dont you hate it when you pay for a game or program and then it totally sucks or wont work, or just doesnt do what you wanted it too.... how can we protect ourselves from wasting that hard earned money?

[narayan]

Not to mention that it is illegal. Make excuses as you will.....


What other people make in a year is none of our business or concern.

How would you like it if someone said that you make too much money and that is the reason they don't pay for your service?



[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 05-23-2000).]

[SoopaStar]

That is where the whole discussion came from. Shareware. That is part of its purpose. You try it out, if you like it, you buy it. Don't like it, delete it and send the programmer a nasty email (just kidding on that part http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif ). You can even demo many of the games that are popular now. Also, many companies do offer a money back guarentee on their software. Look on the box. Microsoft does as do many other companies. Save your reciept. Alot of stores won't take it back--so either contact the company, or talk to a store manager and point out the lil message on the side that says "Satisfaction guarneteed". Wal-Mart and Sam's Clubs are okay places to return stuff.
Paul

[FrozenLiquidity]

I am in full agreement with narayan, put yourself in their shoes and see how they feel.

For more, check this post out http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/006469.html

FrozenLiquidity