Your alls thoughts on.........

[ILC]

Just wondering about your alls thoughts on the Confederate BATTLE flag flying in SC.

Not to offend anyone, but to the people who are crying about it.......will you just drop it, its getting rediculous! Its the freking conferderate battle flag. Not even the flag of the south. And anyways where are people coming up saying the Cival War was fought over slavery? Do some reasearch using some older books, the ones printed before the historians try to make it look like the cival war was fought for slavery.

PS- I am not trying to offend anyone. I apologize if I offend you but I need to tell my POV. About time someone starts to talk back against some of this **** in the news.

ILC

[Warthog]

They should just take it down. People are gonna be complaining about the thing from now onward, so why not? To many (including myself) it is viewed as a symbol of racism in America. I know you said it was the battle flag but that won't change that it is a SYMBOL of racism. Maybe if you were an African American (or maybe you are) that might change your opinion of this issue, but that's just a guess (I'm not trying to make a generalization here).

Don't worry about offending me (just don't get rude about it http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif). We try to have intelligent friendly "discussions" here at Sysopt. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

Warthog

[codybear]

its ya'lls..come on get it right now..as for the flag..fly it with pride..alot of good men died for that flag...both black and white and also the first asian died fighting for america in that bloody war...

[This message has been edited by codybear (edited 05-16-2000).]

[ILC]

Cody bear.... "fly it with pride" cant agree with you more. Warthog, the reason we shouldnt take it down becuase it is history, and it symbolizes the south. One thing about the south is that we have alot of pride (well atleast I do) in the great South. Now im not saying im a racist or believe in slavery but I look at the couragous men of the Confederates and take pride in them. They stood up and died for something they believed in even though they had every thing against them. Take down the flag and those men died in vain and will be forgotten about. The Cival War was not fought over slavery, it was fought over taxes, and the ideas of two different governments. However yes I have to admit that slavery was a side issue also, but if you research the cival war times you will see that the South had promised to abolish slavery within the next 10 years. Neither side wanted the war. Please re think your thoughts on this matter, after all, slaves were in this country under the current flag we have now, not just under the confederacy. Why isnt that viewed as a symbol of racism in America?
I for one think that the flag should fly proud underneath the United States Flag.

[akaBruno]

I don't think that we are going to be able to fight the Civil War, all over again, here on Sysopt. I think that the main point w/ the flag is the fact that it inflames so many sensitivities on both sides of the issue. Being such a volitile issue, I think that it has become quite evident to the political representatives, that it's time to quit flying it over State Houses. BFD, so what, who cares... Fly it in your yard or on your car's antenna, whatever.
What do you think of the German ban on the Nazi swaztika ???

[tantone]

I'm sorry, but saying that the flag is a "symbol of racism" is like saying that blacks are a "symbol of slavery"

It's ridiculous. Just because it may have once been part of something else doesn't mean that it will always carry with it the old ways.

[BBA]

It is NOT A SYMBOL OF RACISM!!!

It is a state flag...
The war was fought because the federal gov't wanted to control the money the south had.

Northern states like Virginia had just as much or more slavery...yet they were not invaded! Think about it: The victors are writing the history books and ommitting an awful lot of information!

Besides, do you really think people would die to keep their slaves? No...it's about property and control of ones property and the gov't wanted it and took it...thats what happened. Just like with the indians.

You racist guys are oblivious to reality!

[akaBruno]

See what I mean?

[reddog4629]

http://members.aol.com/reddog4629/csa.bmp


http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by reddog4629 (edited 05-17-2000).]

[C5John]

BBa
Your history texts do not read the same as ones I learned from.

Virginia was hardly a "northern state". The capitol of the Confederacy was in Virginia, and Robert E. Lee surrendered in Virginia. It was invaded. Most of the history books were written long before people considered revisionism.
Their was "spin doctoring" on both sides.

C5John

[Toadman]

If schools taught American History instead of historical revisionism to suit those oppressed, this would be a non-issue. It's still unbelievable that the Stars and Bars has become a symbol of hate.
Flag History (http://www.icss.com/usflag/toc.flags.html)
People should do a bit of research before emotionally jumping on the PC bandwagon.

[yaroa]

1) Take it down.
2) A battle flag?. You lost, get over it.

[ILC]

Bruno where in the world are you getting off that the confederates were like the Nazis??
Anyways BBA I agree with alomst everything you say, but Virginia was the lead state in the confederacy, and it is in the South, according to the Mason Dixon line. The flag needs to stay above the State House. SC has every right to fly it, its there history, im sick of people wanting to "erase" history becuase it hurts one groups feelings in some way. Even though African americans were just as disliked in the North as they were in the South. Is also everyone forgetting that the black chiefs captured there own people and sold them into slavery, or the whites hired other blacks to kidnap other blacks? What about all the other slaves there have been since the begginging of man, and heck what about the slaves right NOW still in Africa? Wanna cry over slavery, then why dont you people actually do something that is happening now, not 150 years ago?

[akaBruno]

I wasn't making that comparison. What I meant was that: No one is calling for the banning of the Stars and Bars such as the swaztika being banned in Germany.
After I wrote that I was worried that someone would take it the wrong way. Sorry, I should have been more clear.

Bruno

[Darvocet]

Hey, You wear your "X" and I'll wear mine. Meaning that if a Holiday can be given to one man who fought for the rights of an oppressed group then a holiday could and should be given to the person who effectively gave that group freedom and also a holiday could and should be given for those who gave their lives for what they believed in (yes the rebels). Most people still hold the misconception that the Civil War was fought over slavery. It was not. Slavery was an important issue but the main reason for the Civil War is the same reason most wars are still fought...MONEY. Coming from a native of the only state NEVER to have rejoined the Union and being an anthropologist by training I believe that even w/o the civil war blacks would now be free. Anyone agree with this or am I just a rambling fool?
BTW:
My wife had a very major knee surgery yesterday so if I AM rambling like a fool I apologize. Between her and my 3 kids I am exhausted.

[ILC]

Bruno my apologies for misunderstanding you. However the NAACP is fighting against it like thy were banning the swatika in Germany. Darvocet I cant agree more with you about slavery issue. The south had promised to ban slaves, heck I bet they would have been gone witin the next 10-15 after the break out of the Cival war had it not occured. May I ask what state your from?

[narayan]

We can't just remove parts of our history because someone doesn't like it. What kind of message is it to say "complain loud enough, and we will do as you say" THAT IS WEAKNESS. The best interests of the country are not always in line with some popular beliefs. The people who complain about that flag are ignorant of what that flag stands for, which is NOT slavery. Does removing a part of history make them feel good? Even if the politicians do bow down to this unreasonable crowd, the Confederate flag will always be a part of our history, one that I am proud of.

[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 05-17-2000).]

[tantone]

When will we see the NAAEE (Everyone Else)???

[Ed_S]

Have to strongly agree with narayan.

And eqully strongly disagree with bruno's reasoning.
Being such a volitile issue, I think that it has become quite evident to the political representatives, that it's time to quit flying it over State Houses.

You CANNOT rewrite history - and one state should not be forced to bow to the union on an internal matter.
What flys over a state building is the business of the voters in that state only.

[This message has been edited by Ed_S (edited 05-17-2000).]

[Wiz]

I'm waiting for the NAAPP, polish people!! =].


I really dont have an opinion on the subject, as i can see arguements for both sides, but i cant see it being banned, as it is freedom of speech, just as a black panther carrying a black panther flag is...

[tantone]

You hit on something there. Have an opinion that doesn't agree with the NAACP or the "African American" (what if you're Jamaican...are you still "African American) community at large and you're in for a fight because you're branded a RACIST.

Is this a coincidence? Or could it be just as bigoted in the reverse direction?

[ILC]

Yaroa Where the heck do you get off saying we lost? Maybe we lost on paper but if you look at the facts, the Union got whooped. Who would have ever thought that the South would stand against absolutely overwhelming odds for 4 LONG years. Those men deserve to be remembered, not forgotten like so many ignorant americans want them to be.

[jad1097]

It is reverse discrimination with out a doubt. I have seen it all my life.


BTW; Never call a Jamaican an African American, most will correct you very quickly and consider it an insult.

[Anakhonda]

I find it amazing to see this many people SUPPORTING this obviously offensive flag!

Symbols can have multiple meanings: To those who say "the confederate flag doesn't represent slavery", you are naive. Maybe to YOU and your trailer park buddies it means something else (or maybe nothing at all), but to a large number of people, it DOES represent slavery. Perhaps a burning cross means "nightlight" to you, but not to me.

IMHO, if the confederate flag should be considered a universal symbol of anything, it should be a symbol of TREASON. And anyone who wants to fly a symbol of treason over a GOVERNMENT building is an idiot.

But you know what? I (proudly) don't live in South Carolina. Therefore, it is not for me to decide if it flys or not. That decision lies in the hands of the citizens of SC. So if they want to fly it, I say let 'em. But you won't see me vacation in Myrtle Beach anymore.

[jadison]

When you express your opinions on issues like this, we develop our own opinions of you.

I just don't want us to have a pre-conceived opinion of people like ILC and others that will create a conflict in future posts. We will be pre-judgemental, that wouldn't be fair.

That's all I have to say.

-jd-

[akaBruno]

Ed S.

What you are quoting from my post and disagreeing w/ is not MY reasoning. It's only my observation of the reasoning that's taking place in the South. The real issue now is: How much are states willing to sacrifice in revenues due to boycotts. Add to that, the politician's willingness to sacrifice the black vote.

[BBA]

Look...

I don't know how many votes need to be sacrificed. I don't care. It's not my state, and Virginia never rejoined the union ( they have never ratified the constitution at all and therefore are or have themselves been classified as a 'Commonwealth').

Now, I don't like racism, and most racism I see is not due to white people. That is all I will say.

The flag should fly...the federal gov't should not have authority over a states own decision in symbols.

Some people want the federal gov't to rule everything I think...thats sad.

[daveleau]

I did not read the entire thread since I am at work but thought I'd throw in my .02...

First, I live in and am from South Carolina.

The Confederate Battle Flag (CBF) is NOT a symbol of racism although it has been used as such through the past few decades. It is believed (although debated) that the Civil war was not started over slavery as well. Since the victors write the history, it has been said that it was. Lincoln brought this issue in to keep other European nations from aiding the South, their source of cotton and other goods.

I would like to add that the CBF is not the correct flag to fly in this instance anyway. It is the BATTLE flag and is to be flown during BATTLE. SC is not at war. If one wants to honor our heros of the South (which I do), they should fly the stars and bars (true Confederate flag).

The NAACP just WILL NOT give up! The senate and house are debating over the freaking HEIGHT of the flag pole which the flag will fly on. They are stuck on this issue for a measley 10feet (House wants 20', Senate wants 30', they are trying to compromise on 25') We have decided to remove the flag from the dome and place it next to the state house on the Confederate Memorial. SC even set up a memorial for those oppressed by slavery and racism in SC on the opposite side of the grounds. SC set up both a minority rights day (MLK was not done, since there is no other holiday that bears a single man's name, not even G. Washington day anymore) and a Confederate holiday. The NAACP is still boycotting us b/c they say they want the flag bronzed and put in a museum. I agree that it should have been taken down (and replaced by the CORRECT flag...but NOONE listens to Dave! http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif) but to completely remove it is ridiculous.

What is EVEN MORE ridiculous is the likening of the CBF to the Swastika (or however you spell it). The Swastika represented a regime that killed ~16 million Jews. The CBF represents a libertarian effort that was marred with the ideas of slavery. While slavery was a terrible thing, most slave owners treated their servants with respect and treated them well. It was not an effort to rid the planet of a race of people. If I were Jewish, I would be highly offended by that comparison.

The flag is down. The comprimise is more than fair. Yet the NAACP still boycotts us. I guess it really isn't that bad though because SC has only lost 8 million dollars of its multi-BILLION dollar tourist income. So I say, get off of it NAACP. Go fight a battle worthy of your talents. Go bother somebody else. Hey, go after Geogia, why don't you. The CBF is built right into their state flag! I am truly sick of hearing about this on TV. Our local media already has enough success stirring up racial senitment and feelings as it is.
Dave

[This message has been edited by daveleau (edited 05-18-2000).]

[akaBruno]

I appreciate what you have to say Dave, and if you had read the entire thread (ie. my apology and clarification), you'd see that I'm not making that comparison. I'm not even taking sides on the issue.

This is my fourth or fifth post now defending myself from a neutral position. Everybody is so incensed about the issue that it's no wonder that they can't come to a compromise. Everyone is ready to fight at the drop of a hat.

[daveleau]

Actually, I didn't read your posting until after I posted mine. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif In any event, I did not take it that you were trying to make the comparison. There are many people here that are trying to get the flag removed and are making that comparison though.

Just to let everyone know, My posting was not in response to anyone elses and I am not trying to argue about it. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif Me argue? That's a good one. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif I just feel strongly about it and am really sick of the media and its persistent coverage on this.

Anyway, have a good one, everyone.
Dave

[This message has been edited by daveleau (edited 05-18-2000).]

[Warthog]

Bruno, that is exactly why I haven't added to my opinion further - because everyone is taking this VERY seriously and I don't like to get into huge, heated debates at Sysopt.

I really don't know why I got involved in this. I don't care what happens in SC because I live up north in Vermont. It doesn't affect me (does it affect anyone?).

Warthog

[ILC]

Me again, ROFL when I read anakhonda state that everyone who is supporting this to be trailer park white trash. Actually im the exact opposite and who lives in a upscale community, not a trailer park. I also love how im getting labeled for being a troble maker on these posts. Sorry to those of you who think that, but if thats what I get labeled for speaking out for what I believe in, then hey I cant stop your opinion. Anyways I love seeing both sides of the discussion going on in here. At first it was one sided. Lets just keep it clean and unignorant (If thats a word). Also the history about the Cival War didnt start to get rewritten until it became against the law to offend anyone, even when it is the truth.

[narayan]

I have an idea. Take a poll of the American people and find out EVERYTHING that is offensive to each and every individual. Then ban those things so nobody will ever be offended again. BTW, Anakhonda To equate a proud flag, such as the Confederate flag, with "trailer park buddies" offends me, so let's start there and ban offensive speech.



[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 05-18-2000).]

[Ed_S]

Bruno - point taken. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

Dave - You mean there's a Confederate Memorial on public ground and NO ONE has disputed the right for it's existance???
It'll be next if SC gives in on the flag issue!!!

As to the tourism issue - I for one would NOW consider going there just to see what remains of the South before it's too late...

[rtyp3]

I don't think it matters

[mostly486]

Im not sure if someone already said this but,people these days are a little fanatical about this subject.They say SC is rascit because there flying the flag so there trying to get it down because its "rascit".But what does that say about these fanatics?They must be rascit to say that S.Carolina can't fly something they belive in or something that means alot to them.So before they accuse South Carolina for being rascist,they need to look at themselves first!

[narayan]

Bruno, Like Dave, I did not read the entitre thread either before posting. Being such a volitile issue, I think that it has become quite evident to the political representatives, that it's time to quit flying it over State Houses.
Interesting statement. It says that we are allowing people in government the ability to remove contraversial "things" from the American environment. I found your statement intriguing, in the way that problems are not solved, but removed. A very unhealthy behavior for a society. At least that's what it says to me... http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

[Anakhonda]

Narayan: "let's start there and ban offensive speech."
Uh... If this is what you want, please move to China or Cuba -- you would love it there. Or perhaps you should write to your state representatives and ask them to secede from the Union (again), so you can abolish the Bill of Rights.

Also, be sure to watch the "Dukes of Hazard" movie on TV tomorrow night. They are the "true" American heros, right?

[narayan]

Love the car.

[mostly486]

oh good one narayan a million laughs pal.

[narayan]

Oh ****! I'm sorry http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/redface.gif Seriously my browser froze I did not know I had posted two seperate times http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/redface.gif My bad. (It is kinda funny, though http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif)

[This message has been edited by socalgal (edited 05-18-2000).]

[mostly486]

You know,you could accualy weed me parogaph fo da point **** face.

[This message has been edited by socalgal (edited 05-18-2000).]

[narayan]

Please understand that I did not mean to do that. Let's not ruin an intelligent discussion http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[akaBruno]

Hey Narayan, Narayan, Narayan...
Stuck in a loop there???

I just think that, that's what they call diplomacy.
I mean, I don't care where they fly that flag. But blacks do and they are offended by it. Talk about flying it in their faces.
Now the politicians are scrambling trying to save their own butts because of the presure of boycotts and votes. This is just the kind of thing that will bring out the black vote too. That's how things work in this country. Groups organize and work to bring about the changes that they deem necessary, in a lawful and peaceful manner.

[akaBruno]

Hey Narayan, Narayan, Narayan...
Stuck in a loop there???

I just think that, that's what they call diplomacy.
I mean, I don't care where they fly that flag. But blacks do and they are offended by it. Talk about flying it in their faces.
Now the politicians are scrambling trying to save their own butts because of the presure of boycotts and votes. This is just the kind of thing that will bring out the black vote too. That's how things work in this country. Groups organize and work to bring about the changes that they deem necessary, in a lawful and peaceful manner.

[narayan]

The argument that is used is that the flag stands for slavery and racism, when history tells us differently. One must question why facts are distorted. Seems like nobody pays attention anymore. People just believe everything they see on the news. People are being told that the Confederate flag is a racist device, but it isn't. There are facts in books, why don't more people go straight to the books instead of taking other people's words for it?

We live in a representive republic, which means that there is no "popular opinion" poll that lawmakers use when deciding legislation. If there were laws or restrictions made for everytime some "group" decided they were offended or didn't like a certain thing, our country would not be too free. And don't say that this needs to be done in this instance, because once a precedent is established, it is hard to reverse and means a lot to restricting freedom of speach. On both sides.


BTW http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif
and
Sorry, Socalgal




[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 05-18-2000).]

[akaBruno]

What any symbol stands for is a matter of perspective.
And there is one poll that lawmakers always take into consideration when deciding legislation. That's the voting poll.

[daveleau]

Anakhonda
I will not speak in detail or length about this but I will say that I am a very kind, non-backward scientist that is beginning to take offense to your stabs against the entire population of SC. There are many here (and everywhere else in the nation/ world) that fit your description, but I am not one of them.
Dave

[Nick66]

Origanally Posted by BBA
------------------------

Look...
I don't know how many votes need to be sacrificed. I don't care. It's not my state, and Virginia never rejoined the union ( they have never ratified the constitution at all and therefore are or have themselves been classified as a 'Commonwealth').

Now, I don't like racism, and most racism I see is not due to white people. That is all

I will say.

The flag should fly...the federal gov't should not have authority over a states own decision in symbols.

Some people want the federal gov't to rule everything I think...thats sad.

--------------------

You are right on the money my friend.
http://geocities.com/r337m0nk3y/owen/council.gif

[Gene C.]

it is settled: http://legalnews.findlaw.com/News/s/20000518/confedflag.html

[Anakhonda]

To Daveleau and anyone else:
I apologize if you're offended by my comments. While some comments were meant to ruffle some feathers, none of my comments were meant to show disrespect to any individual members of this forum.

While we all share the love of computing-power, we OBVIOUSLY don't agree on THIS issue. But I think it's cool that we have this meeting place (Sysopt) to dicuss, argue, etc., these issues.

[daveleau]

LOL tantone. Are you serious about the Vietnam memorial?
Dave

[tantone]

Not at all serious about the Vietnam Memorial.

But by asking that you illustrate the point perfectly. This kind of stuff, the flag in SC included, is ridiculous. That joke sounded realistic enough to be something that might actually be going on. Does anyone else find that sad??

This whole thing will go in circles, with one side saying it represents slavery and the other side saying it doesn't. Who's to say? Who really cares? IS THE FLAG RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYTHING THAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE PAST? No. The people are. So take down the people. What? They're already dead? You mean slavery isn't still going on? Well then shut the hell up! Why is it such a big issue NOW?? Is the fact that everything in American society is being handed to people without actually having to work for it anymore boring people to the point that they have to come up with **** that isn't even a issue to make an issue of??

America's not happy unless it's divided in some sort of political issue. One side (usually the side that's screaming racism) becomes "right" simply because it says it is. And when the word racism is involved, look out! That word to me is becoming a joke. Anyone remember the boy who cried wolf? That "racism screaming" side plays the part of the sniffling little toddler who acts like they're all torn up inside after intentionally doing what is what told not to do just to keep from getting yelled at...anything to hide the truth.

"Hey Bob, see that guy at the corner wearing the Budweiser shirt? Tell him to take it off. I'm a recovering alcoholic and it offends me. That shirt represents drunks!"

[This message has been edited by tantone (edited 05-19-2000).]

[narayan]

Disappointing.

[pickel]

Those who REALLY care about our gallant warriors which ever side of the conflict,never will forget their sacrificies
whether the flag flies or not. There isn't a day that goes by , for at least a moment , that I donot think of my friends and relatives who gave so much for their country.
It's what 's in your heart and soul, not he flying of a flag that matters. Just more BS in already crowded world of BS. There are more things in life than worrying about an issue that just ties people up in knots and has no purposeful end for either side. Don't forget to visit a VET on Memorial Day...That's what really matters. Give somethinmg back to those who have given so much.!!!

the pickel

[narayan]

AMEN! I can never understand just what the brave men of the United States of America had to go through to secure our freedom. I can watch the History Channel every night, I can read books, I can speak to a vet, but I will never truly understand the sacrafices of those who fought on foreign soil, and those who fought here in America. We owe these people our lives, and I am forever grateful.

~edit~ And another thing, Since it is called the Confederate Battle Flag, perhaps it was flown to show that the state was at battle with the Federal Government. (symbolically, of course!)

[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 05-19-2000).]

[ILC]

*Stands and applaudes pickel and his absolutely fantastic statement about our fantastic warriors. My great uncle was a prartrooper for D-day, grandfather was fighting the Jappenese in the Navy, uncle fought through the hell hole of Vietnam, dad was in reservors during vietnam and lastly my cousin fought in Desert storm. I am to young to enlist and most likely will not just enlist however go on to get my college degree, HOWEVER if there is ever a major war, even with such the horrible commander in chief we have (not trying to start a whole nother arhument on that) I feel it is my duty to enlist and fight. Anyways enough of that.
Secondly I LOVE the dukes of hazard car. I am going to have my self a dodge charger exactly like the one in the show.
Tantone you got me good when I first read about the Vietnamese before I got to the end. I honestly whole heartedly believed that becuase it is so true! Then I got a good laugh after I got done reading it.
For once i dont have anything to say about the flag http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif Ive said almost everything by now. God bless the union, but long live the South!

[akaBruno]

This was not decision of the Federal Government. It is a South Carolina legislative bill.

[daveleau]

No hard feeling Anakhonda. I will agree that we both enjoy computers but agree on some issues involved here and disagree on others. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif
Thanks
Dave

[tantone]

I hear that the people of North Vietnamese descent living in America are rallying and trying to get the government to take down the Vietnam Memorial. They say it's offensive to them because it lists the names of those who were killed trying to kill them.

...and what's with this "Mr. Italy" guy on the Papa John's commercials??? I, being of Italian descent, am offended at the affront to my heritage!!

I also have been led to understand that Granny Smith apples have organized a sick-out in protest to the recent Winn-Dixie newspaper add that, and I quote: "...does not provide for equal representation. The Washington Red apples are, and always have, dominated the advertisements. We demand equality!"

In an attempt to appease the Granny Smith's, the powers-that-be at Winn-Dixie have voted 9-to-1 to mandate that all adds MUST have "...at least one Granny Smith apple, clearly visible upon opening the grocery-store ad section of the paper." The Board Member that voted against the other nine was forced into early retirement and, as of last week, has been replaced with a Granny Smith apple.