People Seem To Get Very Hostile On This Very Opinionated Subject, Please Stay Cool And Simply Join The Discussion! All I Ask For Is Information And Information On Others Experiences! Please Feel Free To Talk Good Or Bad About Any Manufacture, Just Please Be Open And Respect Others Opinons! Part Of This Is From A Debate Between Myself And Other Technicians And Storage Experts.
There is nothing wrong with JTS or Samsung or Quantum Bigfoot drives! They are just low budjet, lower quality, low cost drives! In some cases I would rather use a JTS, Samsung or Quantum Bigfoot over a Conner or Seagate. I have delt with these kinds of drives for a long time as or every other brand. Any drive with defects is total ****! I have seen many low budget drives outlive Designer Drives such as Seagate, Maxtor, Digital, Conner, Older Western Digital & IBM drives. I have seen plenty of Garbage Western Digital, Conner, Seagate, Digital an IBM drives. For example: I have a lot of 40 Seagate 6.4GB IDE/UDMA drives that are totally defective. Some of the drives are just as little as 2 months old! It's Rediculous!
Some Technicians moved from Conner and Seagate and worked at JTS to design JTS drives. The guy who invented the Seagate ST-225 (Seagates most successful drive) was from Kalok and worked and engineered for JTS. Conner's former CEO moved to JTS after the Conner buyout from Seagate. JTS's manufacturing facility in India was quickly awarded ISO 9002 certification for proper manufacturing facilities. Samsung is just very big and spread out! Samsung is just too spead out! They even perform jet and helecopter overhauls and design aviation systems on top of manufacturing TV's, Stereo's, electronic componets and other electronics. The big problem with JTS and what mostly brought them down was User Error and Atariıs dragged along problems!! JTS sold alot of their drives to distributors and encouraged user intallation. Most of the JTS drives I have worked with have failed because of improper installation or handling! It is obvious after opening the drives that the drives have sustained harsh handling or shock. Sensitve maybe? I would just like to see more of an open opinion from people! For more info on JTS Corporation or to see info on Micropolis: (Click On The JTS Logo For The JTS Website) www.gowiththebest.com/warranty.htm
Conner drives are still Conner drives! Seagate just slapped their logo on existing Conner Peripherals hard drives and continued production of Conner drives but with Seagate logos after the takeover! Most of the Seagate Medalist, Cabo Stingray and Cayman series really suck! Example: ST31081A, 31275A, 31276A, 31625A, 31060S, 31080S, 36540A and more! These drives are all Conner or Conner basedn drives! Low performance capabilities and sometimes unstable! I have delt with over well over 1000 Conner drives and know! Seagate has always sucked! The purchase of companies like CDC (Control Data Corporation), Impimis & Magnetic Peripherals gave Seagate their Quality name because Seagate put their logo on these quality products! I still have CDC, Imprimis, Honywell (Magnetic Peripherals) & Magnetic Peripheral drives kickin around from the 80's that still function perfectly with 0 defects! The only bad part is that the drives are obsolete! The Conner buyout just gave Seagate Technologies the expansion they wanted and made them well known, huge and gave them several more manufacturing facilities! Don't get me wrong, Conner did manufacture some OK drives not to mention pretty much inventing and designing the ATA/IDE interface with Compaq.
I have worked with Conner drives for many years! Most all of the Seagate Medalist series is based on Conner technology and engineering! Those Seagate Medalist 6.4's I had mentioned are really Conner! Conner Peripherals manufactured cheap drives with the lowest performance and stability during operation Most Conner/Seagtate IDE/ATA drives 64K Buffer/3600RPM - 128K Buffer/4500RPM. The reason you don't here about problems with other drives is because other companies are still around to support them. Most people don't even know how to send a Samsung drive in that is under warranty. I know people who worked at JTS and I work with JTS and Samsung drives both data recovery and diagnostic services. I just to hear people totally bad mouth those brands. A lot of people seem to talk who have had no experience working with more that just a couple drives and haven't heard ti from the people who were actually involved. Another thing that contributed to the downfall of JTS was when Atari merged with the company. JTS thought that Atari would bring the company plenty of funding for expansion but they just brought along tons of lawsuits and legal troubles. I do not favor JTS or Samsung at all! The only company that I think manufactures good quality hard drives is Western Digital even though they got their start from JTS back when they were Tandon Systems. Older Western Digital drives were just OK but their new Expert-(IBM designed) (7200RPM, 2MB Buffer, 7.5MS Seek, UDMA/66), Caviar and Enterprise drives are great and hold up really well! Conner Peripherals is Making a comeback into the computer storage industry as Conner Technology (www.connertech.com) and will be selling to ONLY OEM's because they aware of all the problems with selling to distributors and retailers who sell to the general public and end users. User error is a huge problem! I have had customers come to me with old 486's or lower level Pentiums for other service that have JTS drives that are still working flawlessly! I would never sell a system with a JTS drive unless it was a really cheap system only because the level of support, no support with JTS and the name everyone is always hatin' on. Samsung drives are OK for chaper systems just because of the name, nothing else. Anyway, I'm not trying to stirr things up, just trying to make a point and a discussion!
Someone Had Told Me: JTS Corporation tried to make a deal with Compaq but were disqualified because Of an 86% failure rate after a 24 hour burn in test. 94% for Dell Corporation. I will be contacting several companies starting with Gateway 2000 to research dealings between JTS Corporation and other manufactures. I will post this information as soon as possible. I find this extremely hard to believe!
I can't believe that any company would or could actually, there would not be any company if equipment was really manufactured to work like that! It's just hard to believe that the company would even last an hour if they had really manufactured drives like that! I do know from a former tech from JTS that there was a flaw in the platter coating in some of the drives. The company did not know about this but the lube they were using would not hold up in some cases! I had just looked up an article regarding what you said and apperantly they did purchase and use drives from JTS. They just wanted to work with several companies not just one and JTS wanted Compaq to purchase only JTS drives. I never knew JTS tried to make a deal with Dell Corporation. That would be extremely rediculous and totally contradictory that the company gave all their drives 3 Year warranties if they would not hold up for 1 day! If the drives would not hold up for a day I think the company would never of been awarded any certification or met any other standards.
JTS was honoring warranties on every single drive for 3 years until the fallout started. They had a 2nd day express return service and would even send you the packaging materials for free and pay shipping! The company was in business since 1994 and started shipping drives in 1995 to OEM's and distributors. Again It does not sound possible that any large company could manufacture products that became unstable within 24 hours or couldn't withstand any resonable burn in testing! Jugi Tandon had a lot experience with the computer storage industry and JTS employed technicians and specialists from Seagate and former Conner Peripherals. One of the guys from JTS who owned Kalok Corporation (Storage) holds over 13 Technical patents mostly regarding hard drives. If they used some of Conner's poor design methods then I could see why they went down. I have worked with over several thousand JTS hard drives! I was never exited about working with JTS drives but I get them cheap! I have a huge lot of JTS Palladium 540's & 850's that look like they have been through World War III and I get about a 40% turn out beleive it or not! These drives were manufactured in 1995! 4 Years Old! A working drive to me is one with 0 Bad Sectors. I also buy rerurn lots of supposed to be "Defective Drives" and I get a way better working turnout on JTS drive then any other manufacture! I even purchased a load of JTS "RMA" drives directly from JTS in San Jose and several drives out of the lot worked perfectly, which proves customer stupidity, No Repair Attempts! I am not in anyway trying to say that JTS drives are that great but I am trying to point out that there is much more **** from other brands out there and everyone always bad mouths JTS, Samsung & Quantum Bigfootıs usually people who don't have any experience with these drives or maybe haven't even seen one talk a lot of ****! I just would like to
see more open opinions. Almost Every Hard Disk Manufacture Produces And Has Produced A Lot Of Garbage!
What Are Your Opinions On Micropolis And Other Brands? Please Contribute Any More Information!
Any Information Or Opinions On Rodime Systems, Miniscribe Or Priam? Yes Thatıs Old Stuff!
I Have Heard From Sources That JTS Limited India (JTS Corporation) Is Still Manufacturing Drives In Madras, India For Sale Without Warranties To Middle Eastern Countries. Do You Think This Is True? What Do You Think?
[This message has been edited by Helly Hansen (edited 05-10-99).]
[This message has been edited by Helly Hansen (edited 05-10-99).]
Nathan
05-10-1999, 05:44 PM
So what are you trying to state? You covered most of the subject. There is little to add about it. I always look at the bottom line. And that is what drive is going to give me the least failure rate of all of them? And to that their is no answer because it changes so much, just as you stated. The only thing that upsets me about it is having to reload everything on a customers computer when it crashes because of a hard drive failure. And that can take hours without being paid for it.
Helly Hansen
05-10-1999, 06:14 PM
Thank You For Your Reply,
As I Clearly Stated! I am simply trying to start a discussion and find out information from others. I would like to others to share their opinions, ideas and experiences with different manufactures. I am in the disk storage business and this information will be very useful!
Not Trying To Be Rude Or Make Trouble!
But Don't Be Such A Discussion Crasher!
ANTONIO E GUERRA
05-10-1999, 06:45 PM
I would rather stay away from Western Digitals in general. I only would recommend the ones made with I.BM. but I am very much in favor of I.B.M. It pays to pay a little extra for the good quality of their hard drives.
My second choice is Maxtor. The quality is good and very reliable.
I have used Samsung without any problems.
Avoid:
JTs (Thanks for all the inside details about the company. I owned one and it only lasts one year. It was noisy and I was glad when it passed away.
Fujitsu: It is very unrealiable. Don't want to touch them.
Helly Hansen
05-10-1999, 07:14 PM
Thanks For The Reply!
Actually the whole Western Digital Expert family is really IBM! There good drives too! Like I said, every company has made **** drives even IBM though IBM's lookin pretty good in the storage industry. Western Digital is going to be workin with SONY on one of the worlds most fastest A/V drives. (4MB Buffer & 6.5MS access time I hear!) Fujitsu and Maxtor drives are OK but I have not been very impressed with Maxtor though everyone else is. (Check out my reply to Maxtor or Western Digital in General Discussion) Well JTS's are OK when they work properly but seem to have a short lifetime (1.5-2 Years Average From My Experience) but thats the same with a lot of drives!
Thanks For Sharing!
Take Care!
Brandon Sandifer
Sandifer Peripherals
www.gowiththebest.com
DavidX
05-10-1999, 08:37 PM
Well, you're probably all sick and tired of hearing about my JTS drive (at least 2 posts about it so far). It has 2Mb of bad sectors but they seem to have stabilised - not a single bad byte more since I got it second-hand (with the bad sectors already on it) months ago. And, in direct contrast to Antonio's one, it is one of the quietest drives I've ever had. It takes a conscious effort to actually hear it even with the PC cover off.
As for other makes, I've had good experiences with Quantum, Conner (some of these about ten years old and still going strong), Western Digital and even Seagate (maybe I've just been lucky) but I've heard that IBM and Maxtor are top at the moment.
[This message has been edited by DavidX (edited 05-10-99).]
Helly Hansen
05-10-1999, 09:10 PM
No Problem!
Usually all the bad sectors is from failing heads, improper or wearing platter coating but is mostly from improper handling! What model is your JTS drive and what is the date? Some of the earlier Palladium 1/4" Height drives are extremely sensitive! JTS Corporation did have issues with improper platter coating. Most of the defective JTS drives I have worked with are defective because of being exposed to excessive shock.
Take Care!
Nice Talkin To You!
Brandon Sandifer
Sandifer Peripherals
www.gowiththebest.com
800XL
05-11-1999, 02:06 AM
Remember, you asked for comments. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif
Conner: Fairly bad drives. They suffered for a long time from a mechanical design problem or two though. The PCB was far too close to the screw holes. I used to have a stack of these that people put in a slightly long screw and fried. They also used to put a silica gel pack inside the drive that was not mounted solid. I'd see a drive with 20% or more bad sectors. Take off the cover and that gel pack would be wedged against the heads. I've got a stack of newly arrived Conner refurbs at work now (Seagate sticker) and I have yet to have one of them work for me. Between the odd Conner slave detection and just failed drives I'm 0 for 5. This is also the only drive I have ever had literally burn out on me. The drive was working as I copied the last bit of data off of it and then the smell of smoke made me shut the machine down. A chip on the PCB had a burnt spot right in the middle.
Quantum: Fairly good drives. I've used and abused Quantum drives for years. The only bad one I have encountered turned out to be a very nasty boot sector virus that took coding a zero fill program to wipe the boot sector and MBR. All in all good drives. The ESDI 600 MB Quantum HP drive I used for a NetWare server is still in working order. I can't say I care much for Bigfoot drives though. I think quantum had an old plant that could only make 5.25" platters and they decided not to close it. Slow and sloppy, but they work cheap I guess. Moot point with drive prices these days.
Micropolis: Very good drives. My very first hard drive was a Microp. 20MB MFM and it is still going strong in my old IBM PC. I've also used Microp SCSI drives and they have always performed above expectations and I've never seen a dead one.
JTS: Cheap drives. Didn't they go out of business? I've never owned one, but companies that die usually die for a reason.
Samsung: Cheap fairly good drives. I did see one killed by the same screw sysndrome that kills conners, but even with a mangled PCB it still struggled long enough to get the data off of it. I have only had contact with a few of these, but they have performed ok and with few troubles. Nothing speedy, but not unstable either.
Seagate has been in the business a long time, but I've seen plenty of low end drives at their hiked prices. I guess everyone makes good and bad. Every company has their Edsel or Corvair. Seagate's SCSI drives have always been fast as hell, but about the same temperature too. Keep those 'Cudas cool and they scream though.
I'm a fan of WD drives. They have always held up for me. I know others have had their problems with them, but perhaps I just skipped the bad models. I went from a 540 WD drive up to 4.3 gigs without looking at the middle steps. Maybe the bad ones were in there somewhere.
I've had good and bad luck with Maxtors. I used an 850MB Maxtor to carry back and forth to work for a long time. It got kicked around and bashed and is still running. On the other hand, I've talked to their RMA department enough that I was starting to know a couple of them by name. Always good service though, can't fault them there. I've known people who traded up from a 200MB to over 1GB with failing drives and the Maxtor RMA dept.
I think that covers things pretty well. I know there are other drive makers I'm not mentioning. You name it and I probably have something to say about them though. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif
Sorry if the above opinions offend anyone. Most drives are pretty much the same as the others out there. They can all fail you know. There wouldn't be a tape backup market if they didn't...
Helly Hansen
05-11-1999, 03:23 AM
No, Thanks For The Reply! Thanks For Sharing!
Take Care!
Brandon Sandifer
MadMax
05-11-1999, 07:55 AM
They're all garbage and they're all great. It's just a shame that they have all had a black eye from bad runs of products at one time or another. It seems to me that quality control gets neglected at all hdd builders from time to time and that leaves a bad taste in your mouth if you have to clean up the mess. Me? I prefer what ever delivers the best bang for the buck on the high end. Reliability??? Well, you pays your money and you takes your chances.
suzan
05-11-1999, 08:47 AM
Helly-what do you mean by excessive shock?
Giving it a good swift kick when it acts up? http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
MudMan
05-11-1999, 10:28 AM
Hey People,
Thanks for the good discussion. I have been trying to make a good choice for my next HD. I wanted Quantum as I figure it and IBM drives are good simply because so hard to find. Weird logic! Best Buy is out of Quantums and don't know if they will get more. I have had Seagate and WDs that failed. I currently have Maxtors and one Quantum. Seem to be good drives. Insight from these discussions makes me realize that the laws of probability apply. Any drive can fail, however some designs or production runs can be more likely than others to fail. Knowing that not all Seagates are Seagates makes this more understandable.
Thanks people,
MudMan
Ed_S
05-11-1999, 11:05 AM
Have had about same as everybody, some good, some bad. Have had bad WD's & Seagate, mostly, but they warrant quickly & no hassle. Also I've had more WD's than anything else so not too bad failure rate overall. Seagate on the other hand - never yet had one make it out of warranty - not one! I'm done with them!
Have some elderly (and newer) Maxtors that have never had problem. Have one old Conner 420 that has been in daily heavy use since '92! Just won't die. (Of course it'll blow tomorrow...)
Not much mentioned about Fujitsu so far, I've one with no problems so far, kind of a test, picked up extra cheap about 4 months ago.
Bought & sold a bunch of old Quantums a few years ago, quess they were all OK, only one died that I know of. (My sister-in-law's, of course - sold @ cost & no labor TWICE!!)
BTW - Excessive shock? Have seen boxes of bare drives poorly handled & rattling together with no known problems caused. Several of mine are mounted in removeable racks, not exactly getting slammed around but not handled with kid gloves either. No problems.
Helly Hansen
05-11-1999, 03:50 PM
Reply to Suzan - Excessive shock means when I play Football or Karate with them (Mostly Bad Ones) Me and the techicians that work with me at my company do this. It's kinda tight! Just be careful!! Telling people about this does not make me responsible for their injury!! Be careful of Windows and stuff!! I know I shouldn't smoke so much crack though.
Excessive Shock - Most 3.5" hard drives are designed to take a maximum 75G's of shock. 75G's is like being dropped from 7.5" off the ground with the average weight of a drive. Though a lot of drives are real sensitive and seem to only handle about 40G's. When a drive is exposed to excessive shock (dropped, banged and stuff) the heads could make contact with the platter. (Remember the space between the heads and the platter is less than 0.25 of a micron). When the heads make contact with the platter the media and heads can be damaged causing bad sectors, media defects and maybe even a lot of noise from heads making contact with the platter. (The platter is the media). (Usually a soft of loud roaring or scraping sound will occur). A hard drive is a Precision Instrument! By exposing drives to excessive shock it is very easy to throw a drive out of alignment or damage the bearings in the motor. If then bearings in the motor are damaged you will hear normal hear a real loud roaring sound. What I mostly see is damaged voice coil actuators or spindle/servo motors (The device that moves the arm across the media). You can normally hear the spindle clanking back and fourth very rapidly or it will start to initialize then die. Most of this stuff is from experience and the problems I have seen due to misuse.
Hope this clears things up!
Thanks for being part of the discussion!
Take Care!
Brandon Sandifer
Sandifer Peripherals
www.gowiththebest.com
DavidX
05-11-1999, 04:36 PM
Hi Helly
My JTS drive is the JTS Champion C3200-2AS 3.2Gb UDMA, made about one or two years ago. Any experience with that particular model? The fact that it seems to have stabilised at 2Mb bad sectors leads me to suspect that it was due to sudden shock. Presumably if the damage was due to deteriorating platter coatings then the bad sectors would keep multiplying? Any comments?
As to the other manufacturers, personal experiences vary. I've got an old 100Mb Seagate still doing daily service and also a 1.2Gb Seagate which has never had any problems after more than 2.5 years of heavy use. I guess it's partly the luck of the draw. I also have a 20Mb MFM drive which I seem to remember is a Seagate (could be wrong) and still running.
Like Ed_S, I too have a 420Mb Conner in daily use. Not a single bad sector and quiet as a tomb (oops, probably a bad comparison!).
DavidX
Helly Hansen
05-11-1999, 04:58 PM
DavidX-
Information According To JTS: Champion 3.5-inch Hard Disk Drives
Up to 6.4 GB capacity, Access times as fast as 11 msec, Ultra DMA doubles the current
transfer rate to 33 MB/sec* 512 KB cache and 5,400 RPM rotation speed. Remarkably silent operation. Digital PRML read channel
enhances transfer rates and data integrity
Protective sealed PCB reduces damage and improves reliability Highest available
MTBF-500,000 hours Three year warranty
Toll-free technical support Champion disk drives from desktop computers deliver rugged and reliable performance for the most demanding storage-intensive applications, including video-conferencing, digital recording and other high-performance multimedia applications. Featuring capacity points of up to 6.4 GB, Champion drives have achieved superior benchmark scores, resulting in exceptional performance and remarkably silent operation. All Champion drives are MMX TM Multimedia ready for true-to-life video playback, 3-D graphics and games.
MODELS:
C3200-2AF C4300-3AF C3200-2AS C4300-3AS C6400-3AS
Formatted capacity (GB) 3.23 4.31 3.23 4.31 6.44
Interface 40-pin EIDE 40-pin EIDE ULTRAATA ULTRA ATA ULTRA ATA Performance
Average Read/Write Access (msec) 11 11 11 11 11
Average Latency (msec) 5.55 5.55 5.55 5.55 5.55
Rotation Speed (RPM) 5,400 5,400 5,400 5,400 5,400
Data Transfer Rate
PIO Mode 4
(MB/sec) 16.6 16.6 - - - AF
Ultra DMA
(MB/sec) - - 33.3 33.3 33.3 AS
Sustained Data Transfer Rate
Average
(MB/sec) 7.5 7.5 7.5 7.5 7.5
Minimum
(MB/sec) 5 5 5 5 5
Maximum
(MB/sec) 10.5 10.5 10.5 10.5 10.5
[This message has been edited by Helly Hansen (edited 05-11-99).]
Helly Hansen
05-11-1999, 06:24 PM
Hey Guys-
To See Some Very Interesting Indipendent Lab Tests & Results For Maxtor, Seagate, JTS, Western Digital & Samsung Go To: http://rightangle.com/jts/press.198.labreport.html
JTS's Old Web Site: http://www.rightangle.com/jts
I Just Think This Information Is Kinda Intersesting.
DavidX - Yes you are probably right. If the heads or platter coating was wearing the defects wouldn't be stabilized.
Helly, Re: Excessive Shock
Well-I asked http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif Thanks, really I didn't know
all that-now I do.
steves
05-12-1999, 10:57 AM
It's a lottery isn't it. Most have had bad patches over the years (maxtor/WD/seagate being the most talked about).
Perhaps the question should be who hasn't had a bad patch? (yet?)
I'm still a bit put off by people (including yourself helly) claiming that certain, relatively recent, drives are reliable. I expect drives to last more than 3 years, so how can you make a judgement on reliability based on 12 months worth of data. A comment about burn in failures - yes.
Of course the problem is then that a manufacturer who was turning out reliable drives 3 years ago may be turning out !"£$ now.
Perhaps 8-Ball could use some of his magic to tell us who to buy at any moment in time.
Helly Hansen
05-12-1999, 01:58 PM
OK Guy, Thanks for sharing your feelings. I am sorry you were a little put off. I would not make any statements whatsoever unless they were completely true! Of course everyone has their own opinions and experiences and I totally respect that! Regarding the new Western Digital drives, These were EVALUATION drives from Western Digtal, yes these are new but EVALUATION product from disk companies means that the drive or drives have been used for massive stress testing, meaning harsh random read and write patterns, shock, voltatge stress & corrosion testing. Obviously these drives survived if I am using them, of course in my own systems, I would never sell evaluation drives to end users. I have been in the storage industry for many years and have plenty experience with storage products. Our company works with tons of drives. I think I know what I'm talking about. Not trying to be rude or anything. Not forcing anyone to believe me either! My beliefs are based on actual experiences & dealings, not opinion! I am a very open person and come at things with a resonable perspective. Everyone Has Their Own Feelings, Even You And I Respect That!
[This message has been edited by Helly Hansen (edited 05-12-99).]
ANTONIO E GUERRA
05-12-1999, 08:37 PM
Hi, Helly Hansen! I believe you have a wrong idea about us. We don't pretend that we know everything (we are not Peter Norton). I think you are using this platform to lecture about hard drives and not to offer advice. Please, I will recommend to share your "knowledge" (which is full of advertisement and info from the manufactures) with the readers of Pc Magazine. I thought you were very informative but you have overstressed your point about one particular brand. I find very rude that you discard other people's ideas because you own the "knowledge". Forgive me, are you the new god of the Pc Hardware?
[This message has been edited by ANTONIO E GUERRA (edited 05-12-99).]
Helly Hansen
05-12-1999, 10:32 PM
Sorry if that was at all offensive to anyone. I am not trying to be rude in anyway! I was a little deffensive regarding what Steves said, saying that he was put off by what I had said. He was acting as though I am making my reccomendations up and that I don't know what I am talking about or something. I just don't like people telling me things like I don't have a clue what's up.
I am extremely offended by what you said but I'm going to keep my cool. My whole life is dedicated to helping & serving people solve problems & find solutions! I am always having people come by our office and continue to provide free consulting and support over the phone and over the internet. I have helped many people that have emailed me simply through this discussion! The only reason I charge anything for some services is because I need to pay bills and take care of my family. I was not trying to brag but rather then telling Steves, Duuhhh! I know what the hell I'm talking about - Sorry you are put off, instead I simply shared the simple fact that I have a long history working with storage peripherals and think I know what I am talking about. I don't feel that I should get shot down for trying to give good, resonable recommedations based on acutual knowledge and experience with certain drives. No one is forcing anyone to believe me. I also clearly stated that I respected his statement and was not trying to be rude. If I did go about it the first way that would of been really rude directly to Steves and he would of took major offense. I am sorry to all sensitive people out there that can't handle this! If you don't like it or don't like what I say then don't read it and save me the trouble of having to explain stupid things. I never disregarded anyones ideas and I am not trying to lecture anyone!! Just trying to provide information and discuss certain issues with storage products. It was clearly stated at the top of this page if you have not read it!! The purpose is for discussion and sharing of personal experiences and helping people. I have anwered replies on this page and have provided support, help and have actually talked back and fourth with people always respecting their ideas and thoughts.
Brandon Sandifer
[This message has been edited by Helly Hansen (edited 05-12-99).]
ANTONIO E GUERRA
05-12-1999, 11:14 PM
By the way, I know steves and he knows a lot about this matter. I am sorry but you 're still lecturing. Since I quit teaching, I don't do that anymore.I guess it is a question of style. Thanks for the free advice, I hope I can pay you back sometime.
Don't worry and be happy!
[This message has been edited by ANTONIO E GUERRA (edited 05-12-99).]
[This message has been edited by ANTONIO E GUERRA (edited 05-12-99).]
Helly Hansen
05-12-1999, 11:29 PM
Also -
I do not know everthing! I set this discussion up because people who have contributed have helped me learn a whole lot, that is part of the beauty of being able to have these dicussions and meet other experts. I never thought I had to explain this. I never juged Steves but it kinda seems like he judged me somewhat when he mentioned his being put off. You have also made judgements against me on the type of person I am. There are also other good hard disk manufactures out there, not just what I prefer, everyone knows that! I am not forcing anyone to go with what I say. I think the best way to find out what manufacture is right for you is to personally work with drives. I am just trying to honestly share what I have seen in the hard drive industry from personal exereince, give people support and learn a little myself. Nothing Wrong With That!
Hey, lets relax a bit. I'm not offended by anything Helly has said.
My main point was that given the timescale of evaluating (longer term not just burn in) drive reliabilty past performance is no guide to current drives. Which makes it pretty much a lottery (with a bit of judgement thrown in - perhaps more like the horses or football pools).
Helly did say "Older Western Digital drives were just OK but their new Expert-(IBM designed) (7200RPM, 2MB Buffer, 7.5MS Seek, UDMA/66), Caviar and Enterprise drives are great and hold up really well!".
The other point I was trying to make here was that you can't really make a reliability judgement (apart from burn in failures) on drives that have only been around for as short a time as this. The fact that something has lasted for 6 months say very little about reliabity when we expect our drives to last for 3 years plus.
Helly~the '(including yourself Helly)' was aimed far more widely than just youself (and wasn't meant as any kind of slight on you). I've seen lots of cases (e.g. look at the user reviews section of this site) of people say how reliable their new drives are, what do they expect!
Back to the main theme: It's interesting that WD called in IBM to help them through the 'bad patch' they had a couple of years ago. Although I have seen/had failed IBM drives I've never seen anyone slagging them off in the way that some of the other drive manufactures have been when they have hid bad patches. Any experience of a IBM bad patch anyone?
Helly Hansen
05-13-1999, 05:05 PM
Hey Steves,
IBM engineered one of the first 850MB drives and put this **** out on the market. Unfortuanatley I do not remember the exact model, (AS/something I think), not sure but anyways it's been along time working with those drives. The drives would litteraly burn up! I have had plenty of experience with them and have heard many horor stories from other technicians.
The purpose of a factory evaluation is to simulate years of use by extreme physicall and stress testing. This is how they provide MTBF (Meantime Between Failure). You probably already know this. Of course I know this is not like really using a drive for years, I know what you are talking about! (People rave about new drives that have just came out). Sorry if you felt I was doing the same. Part of the raving was regarding performance and just pointing ot that they are IBM designed meaning these drives are the same as IBM's performance series. I know people at Western Digital and know the kind of procedure they use. When Western Digital evaluates a drive it must meet the highest specifications and I am sure IBM has the same quality procedure. Of course there are several different runs of drives and any run could have some unknown engineering defects.
The Western Digital Expert drives we are using at our office have been used as total workhorse drives for several months. First they were put through the evaluation process and then givin to use for independent testing. We had no clue on how they would hold up, the best way to test is to actually use them. We keep most of the systems here on almost all the time for incomming faxes and remote file access from my home. We have never once had a problem with the drives, everything is totally flawless so far. We donated the rest of the lot to a school and explained that they were evaluation drives, we have been totally impressed so far with the performance and reliability we have seen. We call in regularly and check in with the school to see how everything is working. There is nothing wrong with basing a judjment on what I have experienced so far. What are you going to do? Wait 2 or 3 years for the drives to become obsolete? The reason Western Digital called in IBM was because they did not want to fund the design and engineering project of a new IDE/UDMA series: 7200RPM IDE/UDMA drives. Western Digital wanted to focus on their Caviar IDE/UDMA and Enterprise SCSI/ Ultra SCSI family. I just think that Western Digital and IBM are on the right track so far. Time Will Tell....
[This message has been edited by Helly Hansen (edited 05-13-99).]
MadMax
05-13-1999, 05:07 PM
Wow, what long posts you have....
steves
05-14-1999, 04:45 AM
Quote "What are you going to do? Wait 2 or 3 years for the drives to become obsolete?"
Exactly my point about making a judgement call. By the time you have decent reliabilty data the quality of drives from a manufacturer can have changed greatly. 12+ months ago everyone on this forum was slagging of Maxtor reliability, but now the opinions are, on the whole, far more positive.
So you see what the word on the street is (past and present) add your own opinions and predjudices and make your judgement.
I think this means we argee, but differing personalities mean that we approach the discussion from entirely different view points.
Helly Hansen
05-14-1999, 03:44 PM
Maybe drives just are not made like they used to be. I volunteer at a Macintosh computer lab at a high school and all of the Macintosh LC575's (Motorla 68040/33MHz) have always worked great! They work better than those stupid Imac's which I don't care for in most cases, not just looks. I maxed out every system to 36MB RAM and we still have the stock 270MB SCSI hard drives: Conner CFA270S (4400RPM, 256K Buffer) and Quantum Prodrive ELS 270S's (Formerly A Plus Development Drive) (5400RPM, 256K Buffer). We have about 25 of these machines with Mac O.S. 8.1 loaded on each, there pretty quick and work great! None of the drives have any defects or bad sectors and all the machines are in constant use. These machines have been in service since they were purchased in 1993. 6 years going strong! I looked up service records on the systems and none of the drives have been replaced! In most cases if you take care of a drive it will last! Even low budget, cheaper drives such as Conner. I have even seen cheap drives such as JTS still going strong that were manufactured in like 1995 when I check out systems on service calls. Just thought this was interesting and wanted to share this with you guys!
Brandon Sandifer
Sandifer Peripherals
www.gowiththebest.com
MadMax
05-14-1999, 03:58 PM
Built like they used to be? No way. Just do a little dollar per megabyte comparison for a brand new 1999 drive versus say a 1990 drive. At least some of that cheap price comes from sacrificing durability and quality control in favor of mass sales. All of the builders try to find that sweet spot where cost per unit (low) and customers satisfaction (high) intersect. All of them have blown it, erring on the cost per unit side, at least once, much to their chagrin. The only company that, to my knowledge, never blew it this way was Micropolis (I love these drives) and unfortunately, they're pushing up daisies. So much for the cream rising to the top.
[This message has been edited by MadMax (edited 05-14-99).]
DavidX
05-14-1999, 05:10 PM
Helly (or anyone else)
You said "In most cases if you take care of a drive it will last". Presumably, a drive is at greatest risk during transport, etc. But how about AFTER it has been properly installed in a system. What is the best way to take care of it then? What are the ways you could damage a drive once it has been properly installed? Turning a PC on or off too frequently? Running defrag too often? I know in the old days you had to park the heads but with modern drives the drive parks automatically when power is cut off. What things should you avoid in order to prolong the life of the drive? What things should you do? I'd just like some other opinions.
Many thanks
[This message has been edited by DavidX (edited 05-14-99).]
Blade Runner
05-15-1999, 06:53 AM
JTS went bankrupt.... Their drives were,are and always will be the worst.
socalgal
05-15-1999, 10:20 AM
WAY back steves asked who hasn't had a bad patch (yet).
The only reliability data I have is my old WD 2.1G - going on strong for 3 years now.
I have cringed when accidentally bumping the tower while system was on, a couple of times. I thought AHH! this is it. But it has been very sound.
I guess they don't make em like they used to...AND I probably did get that "lucky draw".
DavidX
05-16-1999, 06:38 PM
Ahhh yes! Bumping the tower while the system was on would definitely qualify as one way of potentially damaging an already installed hard drive. I'd forgotten that one, though I am guilty of doing it a couple of times. Thanks Socalgal. I guess we've both been lucky!
Nowadays I try to curb my natural inclination to practice karate on a PC which is behaving particularly stupidly - at least while it is still switched on. I've grown wise with age. I'm mature and sensible enough to realise that after all it's only a dumb machine. Now I patiently wait until it is switched off . . . and THEN thump it! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
Helly Hansen
05-17-1999, 02:18 AM
Yes I know JTS went out of business.
Taking care of a drive: I guess your just being smart. I thought it was pretty obvious! It's so simple that I should not have to explain. Defrag and Scandisk is no kind of prevenitive maintanence! I am talking about handling a drive properly, not doing stupid stuff like using screws that are so long that they pierce the PCBA or setting the drive down on the case so the PCBA/controller board can short. Come on now you got to know this elementary stuff! Well I guess a lot of people don't know this stuff.
Brandon Sandifer
DavidX
05-17-1999, 07:27 PM
Helly
No, I was NOT "just being smart". In hindsight, my question was possibly somewhat pointless since I already suspected the answers but nevertheless I was being quite serious. Moreover, if you had read my question properly you would have seen that I was talking about a drive that had already been successfully installed. Your response only addresses the obvious things to avoid BEFORE or DURING installation and therefore misses my point entirely.
I guess the ways of caring for an installed drive are really pretty obvious but I thought perhaps that since you are in the business you might have some fresh suggestions on drive maintenance that I hadn't thought of.
My goodness Helly, you are a little on the touchy side. There's really no need to take nearly every question or comment in this thread as a personal attack.
[This message has been edited by DavidX (edited 05-17-99).]
MadMax
05-17-1999, 09:52 PM
Particularly since you opened with, "People seem to get very hostile..."
Lighten up, man.
StarWatcher
05-21-1999, 08:46 AM
Well I certainly found this thread interesting ,to say the least http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
I am curious though, besides the obvious, defrag, and scandisk-what else is advisable to keep HD in good condition? I have to confess, I have banged my case while the computer was on. ouch!
Dreadnaught
05-25-1999, 02:03 AM
I've got to stick my two cents worth, well maybe its a quarter now. Inflation, what a drag!
I'm a die hard Western Digital user! I've had several ranging from somewhere around 100 Mb to my new 8.4 and have never had an error! Could be lucky, if so, may I stay that way!
Thanx to all... Dreadnaught
Nathan
05-27-1999, 02:25 PM
Your honesty is refreshing. The bottom line is in order to communication effectively with people, you have to listen to not only what people say but also what they mean and feel. Generally people don't expect perfection, but they don't want to be left hanging either. I think your knowledge and experience is very helpful to us. But to excel you need to not take things personally. It's a hard thing to learn, but once you get most of it down, you'll be that much more helpful in your job and when helping others. How do I know this? I had to learn it myself. And boy is it hard sometimes. But you'd be surprised how many friends will come out of it too. You'd like yourself better also. You know, I get the hardest cases. Why? Because it gives me a chance to work with people to solve their problem(s). One of the biggest problems in the computer age today is people really don't care. I see it all the time. You'd be surprised the problems that get handed to me. And they are referrals from someone else who's problems I did or try fixing.
In a word, "service". Always remember this and you'll do fine. You might want to print out that saying below and place it on the wall where the telephone reps or tech support are.
Here's a situation where someone has some trouble with their system and the hard drive should be replaced. Well what's the first thing we do? We call them up and ask "Is there anything on the hard drive you need to save?" We ask it three times to make sure they understand. After the third time they say "Oh yes, I need this and that file(s)". We ask them "Is it important enough to pay us to try and save it?" So while the manufacturers probably can't do that, we can and do offer it.
Keep in touch!
Because The Customer
Because the Customer has a need,
we have a job to do.
Because the Customer has sensibilities,
we must be considerate.
Because the Customer has an urgency,
we must be quick.
Because the Customer is unique,
we must be flexible.
Because the Customer has high expectations,
we must excel.
Because of the Customer,
WE EXIST!
[This message has been edited by Nathan (edited 05-27-99).]
ANTONIO E GUERRA
05-27-1999, 03:09 PM
Hi, Helly!
I am very sorry about the last incident.
[This message has been edited by ANTONIO E GUERRA (edited 05-27-99).]
Helly Hansen
05-27-1999, 03:14 PM
Thank You! That Was Heartrendering!
Regards,
Brandon Sandifer
Helly Hansen
05-27-1999, 03:34 PM
Thanks Guy,
No grudges, just some misunderstanding I guess. I should of just ignored the initial remark from the other dude in the first place or not taken it seriously to prenvent argument. I just got a little worked up in the first place because I know what I know but Steves didn't know what I know about the drives and the engineering methods that Western Digtal & IBM have used. I never guaranteed that the drives will last or that there wouldn't be any defective production runs. Maybe it's better to actually ask questions or have a little discussion before a judgement or statement is made regarding people? Some people can easily take that stuff as a prejudgement or criticism. No one is perfect but the great thing is that people learn even from this. I did not want this to be an arguementitive enviornment, sorry it got that way. Well otherwise I enjoyed reading most of the discussion and appreiciate everyones participation.
Thanks To All,
Brandon Sandifer
www.gowiththebest.com
bsand@gowiththebest.com
Everyone Take Care!
Helly Hansen
05-28-1999, 12:43 AM
Thank You to all who have participated in this discussion. Most of you have helped me learn alot and learn of others experiences. It's great, I Love It!
I hope no one else felt as I was lecturing. I have been providing electronic & mechanical support and service for many years. I am just used to training technicians and have alot of knowledge and personal experiences that I have to share. I admit I am a little defensive when I feel like I'm being criticized. Again no one is being forced to believe any of what was said. It's up to you to be the judge! Unfortunatley this became a sight argument some of the time which I really did not want to happen. Well, I clash with people who criticize me or who I feel are being rude or smart twards myself. This is the same for alot of people. Sorry if anyone had taken me the wrong way. What was stated was my personal and company experiences with certain storage products. How can you be critical to that? We'll maybe it's just me.
Thank You to anyone who participated in this discussion especially those who came at it in a freindly way! Please feel free to contact me for a discussion or to get free technical support. I'm in the business to help others.
Thanks Again!!
Brandon J. Sandifer
Sandifer Peripherals
www.gowiththebest.com
bsand@gowiththebest.com
P.S. Soon we will be carrying a new brand of new UDMA hard disk drives. All drives will include a 3 Year warranty. We just ordered an evaluation lot and are stress testing them to make sure they hold up. Everyone keep in touch with me and take care!
BMI
512K Buffer/Adaptec Chipsets
3.0GB $85, 4.0GB $99, 8.0GB $125
Helly Hansen
05-28-1999, 12:46 AM
Thank You to all who have participated in this discussion. Most of you have helped me learn alot and learn of others experiences. It's great, I Love It!
I hope no one else felt as I was lecturing. I have been providing electronic & mechanical support and service for many years. I am just used to training technicians and have alot of knowledge and personal experiences that I have to share. I admit I am a little defensive when I feel like I'm being criticized. Again no one is being forced to believe any of what was said. It's up to you to be the judge! Unfortunatley this became a sight argument some of the time which I really did not want to happen. Well, I clash with people who criticize me or who I feel are being rude or smart twards myself. This is the same for alot of people. Sorry if anyone had taken me the wrong way. What was stated was my personal and company experiences with certain storage products. How can you be critical to that? We'll maybe it's just me.
Thank You to anyone who participated in this discussion especially those who came at it in a freindly way! Please feel free to contact me for a discussion or to get free technical support. I'm in the business to help others.
Thanks Again!!
Brandon J. Sandifer
Sandifer Peripherals
www.gowiththebest.com
bsand@gowiththebest.com
P.S. Soon we will be carrying a new brand of new UDMA hard disk drives. All drives will include a 3 Year warranty. We just ordered an evaluation lot and are stress testing them to make sure they hold up. Everyone keep in touch with me and take care!
BMI
512K Buffer/Adaptec Chipsets
3.0GB $85, 4.0GB $99, 8.0GB $125
Helly Hansen
05-28-1999, 01:11 AM
Guys,
Any information on Rodime Systems? I heard that there was a lawsuit between Rodime & Quantum regarding the recording methods used. When did Rodime go under? I know their old.
Belfort Memory International: any experience with these drives? Any experiences or information would really help and is greatly appreiciated.
Regards,
Brandon Sandifer
Sandifer Peripherals Inc.
www.gowiththebest.com
bsand@gowiththebest.com
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