yaroa
04-22-2000, 08:22 AM
At last, the Justice Dpt. grew some b***s and rescued this poor boy from its kidnapers.
Click to See Complete Forum and Search --> : Elian
chipbgt
04-22-2000, 08:29 AM
kidnappers? rescued?
http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/late/22cuba-boy-pix.1.html
So the idea is to take him away form relatives and place him back with his father, a puppet of Castro, in CUBA.
This was a quote I read somewhere: "If 15 years ago a mother was shot dead carrying her son across the berlin wall, you can bet they wouldn't have sent the boy back over."
http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/late/22cuba-boy-pix.1.html
So the idea is to take him away form relatives and place him back with his father, a puppet of Castro, in CUBA.
This was a quote I read somewhere: "If 15 years ago a mother was shot dead carrying her son across the berlin wall, you can bet they wouldn't have sent the boy back over."
jad1097
04-22-2000, 08:43 AM
They had no choice but to go about it this way! The family of this boy would not give up custody of this boy for over three months now.
I think our goverment has been too patient as it is. The boy is with his father now and that is what the goal was.
Were they supposed to just walk in and take custody without force? I seem to remember the family saying they would not give up custody willfully.
They were just enforcing the law the only way possible. There was no peacefull way to do this.
Looks like riots are starting in Miami now. Fires in the streets and intersetions blocked. Just freaking pathetic!
I think our goverment has been too patient as it is. The boy is with his father now and that is what the goal was.
Were they supposed to just walk in and take custody without force? I seem to remember the family saying they would not give up custody willfully.
They were just enforcing the law the only way possible. There was no peacefull way to do this.
Looks like riots are starting in Miami now. Fires in the streets and intersetions blocked. Just freaking pathetic!
akaBruno
04-22-2000, 08:48 AM
posted 04-22-2000 08:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While I don't support the Castro regime,I do believe that Elien belongs w/ his Father. After all the man's ex-wife did kidnap the child and put his life in great danger, coming to this country.
I just don't understand the obstinacy of the family in Miami. This could have been avoided, had they been reasonable.
Now, let's hope the courts get this thing moving, and off the front pages.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While I don't support the Castro regime,I do believe that Elien belongs w/ his Father. After all the man's ex-wife did kidnap the child and put his life in great danger, coming to this country.
I just don't understand the obstinacy of the family in Miami. This could have been avoided, had they been reasonable.
Now, let's hope the courts get this thing moving, and off the front pages.
yaroa
04-22-2000, 08:59 AM
There goes the movies rights to his story http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
wtf
04-22-2000, 10:24 AM
send the mother ****** (sorry socalgal, i just have to express my feelings) back to cuba! hes wasting all our tax money and why couldnt the united states coast guard just pick up the boy from the ocean and fly to cuba and drop him off (who cares if hes hurt)rather then have all these court issues and ****.......
narayan
04-22-2000, 10:54 AM
It saddens me that people think that a 6-year old boy should be sent back to Cuba. He will not be with his father, the Cuban Gov itself said the kid would be in a psych-ward for deprogramming. Elian will be a slave in the sugar and tobacco fields, and will only see his father once a month, if the state approves. Elian does not belong with his father, his father belongs here with him. Political asylum is available to all regardless of age, and parental consent is not needed. There is another way. Poor kid. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif
Our own Government staged this gestapo-type raid. MAKES ME SICK
AMERICA NO LONGER REPRESENTS FREEDOM FOR ALL
[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 04-22-2000).]
Our own Government staged this gestapo-type raid. MAKES ME SICK
AMERICA NO LONGER REPRESENTS FREEDOM FOR ALL
[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 04-22-2000).]
wtf
04-22-2000, 11:17 AM
youre a **** (sorry socalgal again, i still have to express my feelings) you know that immigrants have to pay money if they want to become a us citizen, almost a million dollars, if youre not married to a us citizen, and this son of a *****(sorry again) gets in for free?
wtf - expressing yourself is fine - but don't call anyone "dumbass" in these forums. Everyone has a right to their opinions without getting dissed for it. -socalgal
[This message has been edited by socalgal (edited 04-23-2000).]
wtf - expressing yourself is fine - but don't call anyone "dumbass" in these forums. Everyone has a right to their opinions without getting dissed for it. -socalgal
[This message has been edited by socalgal (edited 04-23-2000).]
noresull
04-22-2000, 11:53 AM
First of all he's an Illelgal immigrant, and, if I remember correctly, while living in San Diego CA. Illegal immigrants are sent back to Mexico as soon as they are caught.
He should be deported just like any other Illegal immigrant.
Secondly, his Father should get custody due to the fact he is a living parent.
His Mom was killed during an Illegal crossing of the border, and if she was caught, she would have been sent back to Cuba.
I think this has gone on way too long, and that now since He is back with his Father, it is time for the INS to get going with the deportation process.
I don't want to sound cold, but that is the law!
I also don't think it is neccessary to swear at people's responses, WTF!
Just my nickels worth!
John
He should be deported just like any other Illegal immigrant.
Secondly, his Father should get custody due to the fact he is a living parent.
His Mom was killed during an Illegal crossing of the border, and if she was caught, she would have been sent back to Cuba.
I think this has gone on way too long, and that now since He is back with his Father, it is time for the INS to get going with the deportation process.
I don't want to sound cold, but that is the law!
I also don't think it is neccessary to swear at people's responses, WTF!
Just my nickels worth!
John
raider rick
04-22-2000, 02:19 PM
Just thought I'd run this one up the "flag pole". Anyone think,
it might...be a conflict of interest, that Elian's father, is represented by Greg Kraig, Our Liar in Chief's(Bill Clinton), personal lawyer? It's really simple to figure. Bet Bill gets a lifetime supply of stogies out of this one! God Bless that little boy. Happy Easter!
it might...be a conflict of interest, that Elian's father, is represented by Greg Kraig, Our Liar in Chief's(Bill Clinton), personal lawyer? It's really simple to figure. Bet Bill gets a lifetime supply of stogies out of this one! God Bless that little boy. Happy Easter!
happyhamster
04-22-2000, 04:18 PM
I already said earlier that both sides should give more consideration to the child, leaving all the "big politics" aside. Also, I do not approve of the relatives, they might have been more cooperative. But predawn armed raid??? Broken doors??? This is normal? This is simply crazy! Someone up there needs a good shrink.
http://personal.paclink.net/~oleg/22cuba-boy-pix.jpg
"Gimme the boy! Gimme the boy or I'll shoot! Gimme the f@#$ing boy!"
(picture from NY Times, quote from CNN story (http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/04/22/family.reax/))
There going to be a hearing regarding asylum on May 11 anyway. Why such unnecessary violence?
http://personal.paclink.net/~oleg/22cuba-boy-pix.jpg
"Gimme the boy! Gimme the boy or I'll shoot! Gimme the f@#$ing boy!"
(picture from NY Times, quote from CNN story (http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/04/22/family.reax/))
There going to be a hearing regarding asylum on May 11 anyway. Why such unnecessary violence?
narayan
04-22-2000, 05:18 PM
Yes, I can back that BS up. UNGA Doc A/RES/44/25 (12 December 1989) with Annex
CONVENTION ON THE RIGHTS OF THE CHILD *
The General Assembly,
...Considering that, in accordance with the principles proclaimed in the
Charter of the United Nations, recognition of the inherent dignity and of
the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the
foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,
...Recognizing that, in all countries in the world, there are children
living in exceptionally difficult conditions, and that such children need
special consideration,
Article 2
1. States Parties shall respect and ensure the rights set forth in the
present Convention to each child within their jurisdiction without
discrimination of any kind, irrespective of the child's or his or her
parent's or legal guardian's race, colour, sex, language, religion,
political or other opinion, national, ethnic or social origin, property,
disability, birth or other status.
2. States Parties shall take all appropriate measures to ensure that the
child is protected against all forms of discrimination or punishment on the
basis of the status, activities, expressed opinions, or beliefs of the
child's parents, legal guardians, or family members I know that's a lot, but the entire document can be read at http://www.tufts.edu/departments/fletcher/multi/texts/BH953.txt
here's another good one...82. Refugee-Escapee Act of September 11, 1957 (71 Statutes-at-Large 639)
f. Gave the Attorney General authority to admit certain aliens formerly excludable from the United States.
[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 04-22-2000).]
CONVENTION ON THE RIGHTS OF THE CHILD *
The General Assembly,
...Considering that, in accordance with the principles proclaimed in the
Charter of the United Nations, recognition of the inherent dignity and of
the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the
foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,
...Recognizing that, in all countries in the world, there are children
living in exceptionally difficult conditions, and that such children need
special consideration,
Article 2
1. States Parties shall respect and ensure the rights set forth in the
present Convention to each child within their jurisdiction without
discrimination of any kind, irrespective of the child's or his or her
parent's or legal guardian's race, colour, sex, language, religion,
political or other opinion, national, ethnic or social origin, property,
disability, birth or other status.
2. States Parties shall take all appropriate measures to ensure that the
child is protected against all forms of discrimination or punishment on the
basis of the status, activities, expressed opinions, or beliefs of the
child's parents, legal guardians, or family members I know that's a lot, but the entire document can be read at http://www.tufts.edu/departments/fletcher/multi/texts/BH953.txt
here's another good one...82. Refugee-Escapee Act of September 11, 1957 (71 Statutes-at-Large 639)
f. Gave the Attorney General authority to admit certain aliens formerly excludable from the United States.
[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 04-22-2000).]
akaBruno
04-22-2000, 05:46 PM
While we all agree and disagree. Let us focus on one point. That being the child and his well-being. It has nothing to do w/ political differences.
Algee7
04-22-2000, 05:52 PM
Those INS agents used the "necesssay force to accomplish their mission" and succeeded in getting the boy out of there without anyone getting killed.
Donato Dalrymple(sp), the guy holding Elian in above photo, later said "If they had just knocked on the door, we would have given Elian to them". Yeah, right! those people would have formed their 'human chain', tempers would flare and protesters would've converged on the scene... There's NO WAY there would not have been serious injuries and possibly loss of life to untold numbers of both civilians and agents.
The picture of Elian with his father shows that the end did, indeed, justify the means.
[This message has been edited by Algee7 (edited 04-22-2000).]
Donato Dalrymple(sp), the guy holding Elian in above photo, later said "If they had just knocked on the door, we would have given Elian to them". Yeah, right! those people would have formed their 'human chain', tempers would flare and protesters would've converged on the scene... There's NO WAY there would not have been serious injuries and possibly loss of life to untold numbers of both civilians and agents.
The picture of Elian with his father shows that the end did, indeed, justify the means.
[This message has been edited by Algee7 (edited 04-22-2000).]
bhess
04-22-2000, 05:57 PM
I'm sick of hearing about this. The boy belongs with his father. period.
Another fishy thing about all of this: we know how the press likes polls, why haven't I seen one poll on the news? because the poll would say that the majority of people in the U.S. would say to send him back! Doesn't make good news then huh? so no poll.
Another fishy thing about all of this: we know how the press likes polls, why haven't I seen one poll on the news? because the poll would say that the majority of people in the U.S. would say to send him back! Doesn't make good news then huh? so no poll.
narayan
04-22-2000, 06:01 PM
www.vote.com (http://www.vote.com) will show you poll results. Click the "archives" tab for more polls about this mess.
[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 04-22-2000).]
[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 04-22-2000).]
barry glisson
04-22-2000, 06:31 PM
i watched it live on tv. they did knock. the inside of the house was not trashed.only locked doors were lawfully broken in accordance with a court order.actually everyone in the house should have been arrested.the only people that were assulted was members of the press beaten by the cubans .the ins followed proper procedure all the way.note the position of the trigger finger in the photo,its right by the book. dont ever walk into a lions cage with only a switch. just my .02 barry
jad1097
04-22-2000, 06:49 PM
Thank you point proven.
But I was refering to "the Cuban Gov itself said the kid would be in a psych-ward for deprogramming".
Also the link is dead.
But I was refering to "the Cuban Gov itself said the kid would be in a psych-ward for deprogramming".
Also the link is dead.
narayan
04-22-2000, 07:24 PM
Sorry about the link. I will try to find it. As for the Cuban gov saying the kid would be in a psych ward, I saw that on Fox News.
~edit....Fixed the link
[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 04-22-2000).]
~edit....Fixed the link
[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 04-22-2000).]
jad1097
04-23-2000, 12:19 AM
We have an open policy for all Cubans. WE accept all Cubans with no ?'s asked. Once they are here they are granted asylum.
I don't know how true this is but my Mother in law said that on spanish TV in Miami they are saying that the inside of the house was destroyed. And that the father is being threatined by Castro. If he stays here in the states his family will either be killed or imprisoned. Regardless of that she feels the same as I do and that is the father should have custody of his child.
narayan, can you back that BS up?
I will say it again our goverment was left with no choice but to act in this manner! If these people just gave the kid up like they were told to a long time ago this would not have happened. And a six year old kid does not have the right to make a choice such as this IMHO.
I don't care wether or not they go back to Cuba or stay here as long as the father gets custody of his child regardless of the political BS.
Another thing, do you have any idea how many immigrints come to this country a year? America does represent freedom and will continue to do so for many years to come, just ask about anyone in the world. Just go to Miami and see how many there are down there, beleive me you would think that you left America. Our country has a double standernd when it come to it's immigration policy, we send hashins, chinese, mexicans etc.. back to where they come from, this is a sad fact. If it was as you say a "gestapo-type raid" then I bet there would have been at least one dead!
I don't know how true this is but my Mother in law said that on spanish TV in Miami they are saying that the inside of the house was destroyed. And that the father is being threatined by Castro. If he stays here in the states his family will either be killed or imprisoned. Regardless of that she feels the same as I do and that is the father should have custody of his child.
narayan, can you back that BS up?
I will say it again our goverment was left with no choice but to act in this manner! If these people just gave the kid up like they were told to a long time ago this would not have happened. And a six year old kid does not have the right to make a choice such as this IMHO.
I don't care wether or not they go back to Cuba or stay here as long as the father gets custody of his child regardless of the political BS.
Another thing, do you have any idea how many immigrints come to this country a year? America does represent freedom and will continue to do so for many years to come, just ask about anyone in the world. Just go to Miami and see how many there are down there, beleive me you would think that you left America. Our country has a double standernd when it come to it's immigration policy, we send hashins, chinese, mexicans etc.. back to where they come from, this is a sad fact. If it was as you say a "gestapo-type raid" then I bet there would have been at least one dead!
mgordon99
04-23-2000, 12:23 AM
Hey this pic says it all, Elian and his Father reunited:
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20000422/us/cuban_boy_95q.html
They both look overjoyed. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20000422/us/cuban_boy_95q.html
They both look overjoyed. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
jad1097
04-23-2000, 12:43 AM
http://www.geocities.com/jad1097/images/wx110_full.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/jad1097/images/wx111_full.jpg
Enough said!
http://www.geocities.com/jad1097/images/wx111_full.jpg
Enough said!
yaroa
04-23-2000, 05:29 AM
Narayan, do you believe everything that you see on tv? Consider the source.
narayan
04-23-2000, 06:05 AM
Do you?
jad1097
04-23-2000, 08:30 AM
Never.
alondra
04-23-2000, 10:48 AM
wtf
your language negates your opinion.
your language negates your opinion.
Mntsnow
04-23-2000, 11:02 AM
Donato Dalrymple(sp), the guy holding Elian in above photo, later said "If they had just knocked on the door, we would have given Elian to them".
Then tell me why the heck was he "hiding" in the dang closet?!
It's about time that the boy is back with his RIGHTFUL guardian! and who in the heck to do WE think we are in being the one's to say what happens to the boy when it comes to who/what/were ect when it comes to this boys life? That RIGHT and RESPONSIBLITY belongs to ONLY ONE PERSON! HIS FATHER! Not some "want-a-be" great-uncle!
This should have been done 5 months ago!
Mntsnow
Then tell me why the heck was he "hiding" in the dang closet?!
It's about time that the boy is back with his RIGHTFUL guardian! and who in the heck to do WE think we are in being the one's to say what happens to the boy when it comes to who/what/were ect when it comes to this boys life? That RIGHT and RESPONSIBLITY belongs to ONLY ONE PERSON! HIS FATHER! Not some "want-a-be" great-uncle!
This should have been done 5 months ago!
Mntsnow
alondra
04-23-2000, 11:15 AM
Has anyone seen any reference to what, if any,contact, these "relatives" had with the boy, before he arrived here.?? I suspect all this is not the result of great love for the boy, but rather a chance for the Cubans to poke the eye of Castro.
barry glisson
04-23-2000, 03:41 PM
just in case no one remembers why the cubans left cuba the first ones were the criminal element led by batista,the second was the criminal element chased out by castro.the ones leaving now are the ones looking for employment in the usa. i had a neighbor who was one of castros body guards untill the debacle in n.y. in 1969 i worked with one of batistas body guards at the lodge of the 4 seasons in lake ozark mo. i knew both of these people well.dont ever believe they only come for political freedom.most wouldnt go back unless cuba was made the 51st state. my .02 barry
[This message has been edited by barry glisson (edited 04-23-2000).]
[This message has been edited by barry glisson (edited 04-23-2000).]
medo
04-23-2000, 06:16 PM
Hello,
This story is coming to its end. I really hope, Elian will recover and one day come to USA and visit his relatives.
If anybody wants a list of countries/governments supported by USA with no (proper) democratic elected government in last 20-30 years I will send it to them. This is one of the first right moves (in foreign policy) by this government since it was elected by 36% of USA citizens.
Don't worry in few months time we will have another leading story to boost audience or selling and so on.
Medo
http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
This story is coming to its end. I really hope, Elian will recover and one day come to USA and visit his relatives.
If anybody wants a list of countries/governments supported by USA with no (proper) democratic elected government in last 20-30 years I will send it to them. This is one of the first right moves (in foreign policy) by this government since it was elected by 36% of USA citizens.
Don't worry in few months time we will have another leading story to boost audience or selling and so on.
Medo
http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
Joel Kleppinger
04-23-2000, 08:37 PM
You know... I was just starting to forget how much Communism sucks until this happened. Thanks for the reminder.
Freedom FOREVER. I'd rather die than not be free.
Freedom FOREVER. I'd rather die than not be free.
narayan
04-23-2000, 09:01 PM
AMEN!
medo
04-23-2000, 10:00 PM
Hello,
As an idea, communism is good (early Christians, kibbutz), but when it came to realization - that's a different story (Do you know what happened between 1917-1923). I was born in a communist country and believe me I know what oppression and one party system means. System in my country wasn't so harsh like in Cuba, USSR and China and it had "some" advantages but it was not democratic system.
Democracy (and media) can produce Hitler, as communism (and media) can produce Mao and Stalin.
What really makes me angry is hypocrisy of American foreign policy and story wasn't much about Elian - it was story about unsettled accounts between Cuba and USA. America is a hostage of it's own politics.
Do you know what happened on 21st August of 1968 and reaction of west countries lead by USA (much ado about nothing).
Before the Berlin wall fell all emigrants from "east countries" were treated as heroes, now because too many want to leave their own country all doors are closed and there are treated like "economic immigrants" and are forcefully returned home. Here in Australia if you ask an average Australian - does he want more immigrants - answer will be NO, simply because it costs (and there are jobs on the stake) and most of them do not care about the harsh reality in the outside world.
Yes, I am an immigrant.
Freedom is a category and some day if you have to choose between freedom and a full stomach (I hope you never will) I am not sure if your statement will be exactly the same (please no offence). Freedom is not a relative category, it's an absolute category.
My grandfather spent 15 years in jail because he had different ideas than officially proclaimed but a vast majority did not care and continued to live a "normal" life. Did he waste his 15 years?
Yes, I like democracy but I prefer full equality, not equality measured by my bank statement.
Medo
http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
As an idea, communism is good (early Christians, kibbutz), but when it came to realization - that's a different story (Do you know what happened between 1917-1923). I was born in a communist country and believe me I know what oppression and one party system means. System in my country wasn't so harsh like in Cuba, USSR and China and it had "some" advantages but it was not democratic system.
Democracy (and media) can produce Hitler, as communism (and media) can produce Mao and Stalin.
What really makes me angry is hypocrisy of American foreign policy and story wasn't much about Elian - it was story about unsettled accounts between Cuba and USA. America is a hostage of it's own politics.
Do you know what happened on 21st August of 1968 and reaction of west countries lead by USA (much ado about nothing).
Before the Berlin wall fell all emigrants from "east countries" were treated as heroes, now because too many want to leave their own country all doors are closed and there are treated like "economic immigrants" and are forcefully returned home. Here in Australia if you ask an average Australian - does he want more immigrants - answer will be NO, simply because it costs (and there are jobs on the stake) and most of them do not care about the harsh reality in the outside world.
Yes, I am an immigrant.
Freedom is a category and some day if you have to choose between freedom and a full stomach (I hope you never will) I am not sure if your statement will be exactly the same (please no offence). Freedom is not a relative category, it's an absolute category.
My grandfather spent 15 years in jail because he had different ideas than officially proclaimed but a vast majority did not care and continued to live a "normal" life. Did he waste his 15 years?
Yes, I like democracy but I prefer full equality, not equality measured by my bank statement.
Medo
http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
Joel Kleppinger
04-24-2000, 10:15 AM
Allow me to elaborate. While I do not have your experience nor your perspective, I still attempt to approach this subject intellectually open in order to ascertain the truth.
First, people incorrectly equate early Christianity with Communism. This definitely is not the case. What early Christianity was economically was a VOLUNTARY giving up of certain necessary possessions to try to help other Christians out in need. However, many Christians did not and were not at all looked down upon. Also, even among Christians who did give to the poor and widows, they did not bring them up to the level of total economic equality. They simply helped meet their needs.
Yes, I know my history. How can we know where we are going if we do not know where we have come from? I'm sure there are some holes in what I know, but I think I have a reasonably accurate understanding of what happened in the overthrow of the Czars and the establishment of the communist state.
I'm not sure I follow your comments about American foreign policy and the hostage part.
Can't say that date means anything to me... was that the Tinneman Square Massacre?
As for immigration, yes, that isn't much to be proud of. I can't say I love US foreign immigration policy, but simple math points out that the entire world population can't fit in the US even if they wanted to (and I'm not so presumptuous to think they do). :-/ My analysis of foreign policy is admittedly weak - perhaps as I mature, I'll understand international relations better. For now, I focus at home.
---Skip to here if you want to get what I really want to say http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif---
Freedom is worth dying for. I'm free to go and do what I want where I want when I want, and I don't have to tell anyone about it if I don't want to. I am in charge of my own person completely and how I react to situations, and I don't have to follow any orders if I don't feel like it. That's freedom.
However, absolute freedom cannot exist. If you can do ANYTHING you want to, then you won't care about your community obligations. So rules do have to be set up to keep a peace between citizens. If those rules are broken, then certain freedoms (as defined in the rules) are revoked temporarily or permanently as justice. Responsibility is a requirement, not an option, of freedom.
This is where Communism fails miserably. It puts the power in the hands of a few who can do what they want with it. Everyone has to comply completely and if they don't, force is used to make sure they do. Perhaps the ideals are ok, but in reality, we live in the real world not the ideal world.
Psychologically, people feel more excited about any organization, product, or whatever if they took part in creating it and if their ideas were at least considered, even if they were not taken in the end. Communism takes the power and thought away from the grass-roots people and gives it to the few at the top. No wonder people don't work as hard - they aren't rewarded for the extra work. It's just like in school... if they relax the grade scale to make A's easier, most A students will then drop their grades to get to the low-A level... minimum work to get the "same" result.
Democracy gives that direct influence to the grass-roots. People can make a difference in how a country is run - keeping the politics from getting too far offline. The fact is... no matter how you feel about how something specific is handled, keep in mind that you had a hand in making it happen. Take some responsibility.
Competition. It's a natural human phenomenom. I want to beat you - whether UT, RC5 stats, or baseball... I don't like to lose. What the capitalistic (and even the US political) system does is try to encourage that competition so people will better themselves to try to get closer to the top. If everyone is trying to improve themselves individually, then society as a whole will usually improve corporately as well since all members of society are improving.
Certainly, people still look for, find, and exploit the loopholes in the system, but that's the point of the checks and balances system - to keep one part or person in government from being allowed to take control of all of the government.
This is the thing that bothers me most about what happened Saturday - one section of government took power into their own hands and forced their way into a private home where there was NO CRIMINAL ACTIVITY and where there were political refugees. I don't care if you think Elian deserves to be with his father or not - this should NEVER have happened and majorly bothers me. I was annoyed by the constant attention this whole thing got the past 5 months until this happened, and now I'm wondering - WHERE'S THE ATTENTION NOW? Does the end justify the means? NO. They violated the freedom that I've lived for and stood for.
I can only hope that our system of checks and balances really works and that Clinton and company will be justly punished for the way that they have so flaunted the rule of law and the life of private citizens throughout the past 8 years. I couldn't even tell the difference between Clinton and Castro in this one...
People have a right to be free. All people everywhere have a right to be free. I may not agree with what everyone thinks or says, but I'll die for them to have the ability to continue to think or say it. That's freedom and that's what I will not continue to take for granted.
First, people incorrectly equate early Christianity with Communism. This definitely is not the case. What early Christianity was economically was a VOLUNTARY giving up of certain necessary possessions to try to help other Christians out in need. However, many Christians did not and were not at all looked down upon. Also, even among Christians who did give to the poor and widows, they did not bring them up to the level of total economic equality. They simply helped meet their needs.
Yes, I know my history. How can we know where we are going if we do not know where we have come from? I'm sure there are some holes in what I know, but I think I have a reasonably accurate understanding of what happened in the overthrow of the Czars and the establishment of the communist state.
I'm not sure I follow your comments about American foreign policy and the hostage part.
Can't say that date means anything to me... was that the Tinneman Square Massacre?
As for immigration, yes, that isn't much to be proud of. I can't say I love US foreign immigration policy, but simple math points out that the entire world population can't fit in the US even if they wanted to (and I'm not so presumptuous to think they do). :-/ My analysis of foreign policy is admittedly weak - perhaps as I mature, I'll understand international relations better. For now, I focus at home.
---Skip to here if you want to get what I really want to say http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif---
Freedom is worth dying for. I'm free to go and do what I want where I want when I want, and I don't have to tell anyone about it if I don't want to. I am in charge of my own person completely and how I react to situations, and I don't have to follow any orders if I don't feel like it. That's freedom.
However, absolute freedom cannot exist. If you can do ANYTHING you want to, then you won't care about your community obligations. So rules do have to be set up to keep a peace between citizens. If those rules are broken, then certain freedoms (as defined in the rules) are revoked temporarily or permanently as justice. Responsibility is a requirement, not an option, of freedom.
This is where Communism fails miserably. It puts the power in the hands of a few who can do what they want with it. Everyone has to comply completely and if they don't, force is used to make sure they do. Perhaps the ideals are ok, but in reality, we live in the real world not the ideal world.
Psychologically, people feel more excited about any organization, product, or whatever if they took part in creating it and if their ideas were at least considered, even if they were not taken in the end. Communism takes the power and thought away from the grass-roots people and gives it to the few at the top. No wonder people don't work as hard - they aren't rewarded for the extra work. It's just like in school... if they relax the grade scale to make A's easier, most A students will then drop their grades to get to the low-A level... minimum work to get the "same" result.
Democracy gives that direct influence to the grass-roots. People can make a difference in how a country is run - keeping the politics from getting too far offline. The fact is... no matter how you feel about how something specific is handled, keep in mind that you had a hand in making it happen. Take some responsibility.
Competition. It's a natural human phenomenom. I want to beat you - whether UT, RC5 stats, or baseball... I don't like to lose. What the capitalistic (and even the US political) system does is try to encourage that competition so people will better themselves to try to get closer to the top. If everyone is trying to improve themselves individually, then society as a whole will usually improve corporately as well since all members of society are improving.
Certainly, people still look for, find, and exploit the loopholes in the system, but that's the point of the checks and balances system - to keep one part or person in government from being allowed to take control of all of the government.
This is the thing that bothers me most about what happened Saturday - one section of government took power into their own hands and forced their way into a private home where there was NO CRIMINAL ACTIVITY and where there were political refugees. I don't care if you think Elian deserves to be with his father or not - this should NEVER have happened and majorly bothers me. I was annoyed by the constant attention this whole thing got the past 5 months until this happened, and now I'm wondering - WHERE'S THE ATTENTION NOW? Does the end justify the means? NO. They violated the freedom that I've lived for and stood for.
I can only hope that our system of checks and balances really works and that Clinton and company will be justly punished for the way that they have so flaunted the rule of law and the life of private citizens throughout the past 8 years. I couldn't even tell the difference between Clinton and Castro in this one...
People have a right to be free. All people everywhere have a right to be free. I may not agree with what everyone thinks or says, but I'll die for them to have the ability to continue to think or say it. That's freedom and that's what I will not continue to take for granted.
Anakhonda
04-24-2000, 11:12 AM
Remember the good ol days? It used to be if your government was not "for the people", citizens under that government would REVOLT.
But the Cubans are cowards, and they would rather run away to the nearest country full of suckers that will let them in.
BTW, isn't that a riot seeing all the people down in florida waving those Cuban flags?! Are they trying to say they like Cuba? Send them back with Elian.
[This message has been edited by Anakhonda (edited 04-24-2000).]
But the Cubans are cowards, and they would rather run away to the nearest country full of suckers that will let them in.
BTW, isn't that a riot seeing all the people down in florida waving those Cuban flags?! Are they trying to say they like Cuba? Send them back with Elian.
[This message has been edited by Anakhonda (edited 04-24-2000).]
pickel
04-24-2000, 11:14 AM
Right On, Joel!!!! That's what I've been trying to say since I joined this forum but don't have eloquence to do so. You 've got to believe in yourself, free in spirit and mind.
You have to protect this freedom at all times from the Blue Meanies and Red Comrades, cause no one else is gona do it for you. I feel all sides were to blame on this one. The government, the people, the parents with the poor kid stuck in the middle. Only time will tell what will become of Elian. At least, he might have some sort of stability even if it isn't the one we all would have choosen. just another saga in the never ending travesties of life. But the world is still turning , and we will be subjected to the next crisis , you can bet your bottom dollar on that. and the next and the next. This is just another fleeting story soon to be replaced by the bigger and better. Like Felix the cat always ened with ...." what's next"
the pickel
[This message has been edited by pickel (edited 04-24-2000).]
You have to protect this freedom at all times from the Blue Meanies and Red Comrades, cause no one else is gona do it for you. I feel all sides were to blame on this one. The government, the people, the parents with the poor kid stuck in the middle. Only time will tell what will become of Elian. At least, he might have some sort of stability even if it isn't the one we all would have choosen. just another saga in the never ending travesties of life. But the world is still turning , and we will be subjected to the next crisis , you can bet your bottom dollar on that. and the next and the next. This is just another fleeting story soon to be replaced by the bigger and better. Like Felix the cat always ened with ...." what's next"
the pickel
[This message has been edited by pickel (edited 04-24-2000).]
Mntsnow
04-24-2000, 11:15 AM
one section of government took power into their own hands and forced their way into a private home where there was NO CRIMINAL ACTIVITY
What the heck to you call defying a order from the justice system? They ORDERED the miami family to surrender the boy to the LEGAL guardian (Father) and they FAILED TO COMPLY! End of story! They did what the miami family left them to do! )btw after the FATHER was declaired the LEGAL guardian of the boy at that point the miami family became KIDNAPPERS when they didnt relinquish control of the boy.
Mntsnow
What the heck to you call defying a order from the justice system? They ORDERED the miami family to surrender the boy to the LEGAL guardian (Father) and they FAILED TO COMPLY! End of story! They did what the miami family left them to do! )btw after the FATHER was declaired the LEGAL guardian of the boy at that point the miami family became KIDNAPPERS when they didnt relinquish control of the boy.
Mntsnow
Brian48
04-24-2000, 11:16 AM
The boy belongs with his father.
You're right. It's all about freedom. Only thing is, these folks (the Gonzales) abused this freedom when they flagrantly disobeyed the court order to surrender the boy. The uncle publicly stated that if the gov't wanted the boy, they'd have to take him by force. Well he got his wish.
I don't care how badly you twist this event into some high level philosophical banter. The bottom line is that this whole unfortunate affair could have avoided if the family didn't put themselves above the law (which NO ONE has freedom to do)
Given the heated tension amongst the community that the boy is located in, it would have been impossible to quietly and politely knock on the door to escort him away. They did what had to be done, and given that no one was hurt, they did it well.
Putting politics aside, which is what everyone should have done to begin with, put yourself in the father's shoes. How the hell would you have gotten the boy back? I also agree that every day that passes, the family is feeding more **** into the child's head. It is common in ANY custody battle.
By the way, I am soon-to-be-father, conservative, and a combat vet with 9 years in the USMC (who HAS put his life on line for this country and everything it stands for). I am by no means a liberal or Clinton/Reno supporter. In fact, I've often gone against these two on most issues, however this one time, I have commend them on having the gonads to stand up to the negative opinion and do what's right.
You're right. It's all about freedom. Only thing is, these folks (the Gonzales) abused this freedom when they flagrantly disobeyed the court order to surrender the boy. The uncle publicly stated that if the gov't wanted the boy, they'd have to take him by force. Well he got his wish.
I don't care how badly you twist this event into some high level philosophical banter. The bottom line is that this whole unfortunate affair could have avoided if the family didn't put themselves above the law (which NO ONE has freedom to do)
Given the heated tension amongst the community that the boy is located in, it would have been impossible to quietly and politely knock on the door to escort him away. They did what had to be done, and given that no one was hurt, they did it well.
Putting politics aside, which is what everyone should have done to begin with, put yourself in the father's shoes. How the hell would you have gotten the boy back? I also agree that every day that passes, the family is feeding more **** into the child's head. It is common in ANY custody battle.
By the way, I am soon-to-be-father, conservative, and a combat vet with 9 years in the USMC (who HAS put his life on line for this country and everything it stands for). I am by no means a liberal or Clinton/Reno supporter. In fact, I've often gone against these two on most issues, however this one time, I have commend them on having the gonads to stand up to the negative opinion and do what's right.
Toadman
04-24-2000, 11:21 AM
"The Cuban-Americans hatred for Castro and his communist regime far exceeds the needs of Elian's well-being." Sums it up nice.Using the child as a defiant "middle-finger" to Fidel, while hiding under the US might while flaunting their rights to free speech. Ingrates, all of em IMHO. When Castro kicks within 10 years or so, the point will be moot, and Havana will become an incredible tourist spot.
[This message has been edited by Toadman (edited 04-24-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Toadman (edited 04-24-2000).]
narayan
04-24-2000, 11:55 AM
On a different perspective, regardless of where we believe the kid to belong, the government violated the 4th amendment of the Constitution. NEVER in the history of the United States has there been a custody case where armed guards stormed in to take a child while negociations were under way. The family has signed an agreement and that agreement was in Janet Reno's hands. Not only that, but Elian has not been allowed to see his lawyers. The lawyers for the family are lawyers signed to Elian, not the family. Elian is not being allowed to see his own lawyers. He is in custody of the other side. The kidnappers here is the federal government. Forget where you think he belongs, forget his age, and think of what has happened this Easter weekend. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 04-24-2000).]
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 04-24-2000).]
akaBruno
04-24-2000, 01:06 PM
Tapeworm:
I can see where you got your name. Eat that.
I can see where you got your name. Eat that.
Algee7
04-24-2000, 02:59 PM
"Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Hmmmm... you posted it but did you actually read it? Contrary to your position, this amendment supports the governments action http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Hmmmm... you posted it but did you actually read it? Contrary to your position, this amendment supports the governments action http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif
medo
04-24-2000, 05:38 PM
Hello,
Thank you for your reply, despite it was not addressed to you entirely.
When I wrote – freedom is an absolute category - I meant in the philosophical category.
I agree with you about a set of rules, otherwise there is no freedom.
21.08.1968 was the day of the invasion on Czechoslovakia (by USSR), but I can also point to the Budapest 1956.
Communism has to have two stages (by Marxist) and the first stage is socialism.
We can now speculate what might happen if west did not invade Russia 1918-1921 and force repression. Generally a lot of oppression in those systems are established thankfully to the west.
Hypocrisy of the west is best recognized towards China today (yes we don’t like you but we want your money).
When I wrote and mentioned early Christianity the whole idea was about equality.
Yes, my grandfather did not waste his life. He can walk upwards.
Medo
http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
Thank you for your reply, despite it was not addressed to you entirely.
When I wrote – freedom is an absolute category - I meant in the philosophical category.
I agree with you about a set of rules, otherwise there is no freedom.
21.08.1968 was the day of the invasion on Czechoslovakia (by USSR), but I can also point to the Budapest 1956.
Communism has to have two stages (by Marxist) and the first stage is socialism.
We can now speculate what might happen if west did not invade Russia 1918-1921 and force repression. Generally a lot of oppression in those systems are established thankfully to the west.
Hypocrisy of the west is best recognized towards China today (yes we don’t like you but we want your money).
When I wrote and mentioned early Christianity the whole idea was about equality.
Yes, my grandfather did not waste his life. He can walk upwards.
Medo
http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
narayan
04-24-2000, 06:02 PM
Algee7, yes I did read it. The gov did not have a warrant to raid the house. Negociations were under way and in fact a paper was signed by the family that agreed to a neutral meeting place. Janet Waco Reno had the agreement in her posession. Under that circumstance (custody battle) the raid is unconstitutional.
alondra
04-24-2000, 06:04 PM
I would suggest that at the next potty mouth post by, tapeworm. he be given his walking papers.
Algee7
04-24-2000, 06:53 PM
The family had no right to disobey a lawful court order. The court ruled that they must surrender the boy to his father, PERIOD. They're lucky that they weren't all arrested for contempt of court and/or obstructing governmental administration...
We could go round and round with this forever and neither will convince the other that they are right.
So, in that vein, I agree to disagree with you.
Perhaps, when ALL of the legal arguments are hashed out (and the presidential election is history), one of us will be vindicated.
Until then...
We could go round and round with this forever and neither will convince the other that they are right.
So, in that vein, I agree to disagree with you.
Perhaps, when ALL of the legal arguments are hashed out (and the presidential election is history), one of us will be vindicated.
Until then...
wtf
04-24-2000, 08:14 PM
this post is O.T! get this off here sysopt! nothing to do with computers! just like cupofnoodles!
Mntsnow
04-24-2000, 08:37 PM
Yeah right...."just like a cup of noodles" LMAO
Mntsnow
Mntsnow
hd581
04-24-2000, 08:46 PM
Take it easy, wtf. You've been the Off Topic Policeman ever since Scott locked your noodles thread. Let Scott decide which topics are OT. Besides if you really do have a problem with these politics threads, email him personally and tell him how you feel. I'm sure he can come up with something reasonable.
narayan
04-24-2000, 09:06 PM
Yeah Algee, you're right. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
A concern of mine is that Americans as a whole do not see a government like Castro's as the evil in our world. I feel that Americans should be welcoming anyone (Cuban or whoever) to our country, especially if they are afraid of their government. I also believe that Juan Miguel is not speaking for himself, because of repercussions that Castro may inflict upon him or friends still in Cuba. I will follow this very closely. I want everyone to follow very closely. This, I believe, is a terrible time in our history. The media twists stories and lies to the people who want to know about what is going on in their world. The government lies to the media and the people. We can find it very difficult to try to sift through all the B$ that is being fed to us. Who is not telling it straight when there are 2 points of view? I love this country, and I am tired of being lied to, tired of events like Ruby Ridge and Waco, and now Miami. We can all get along. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 04-24-2000).]
A concern of mine is that Americans as a whole do not see a government like Castro's as the evil in our world. I feel that Americans should be welcoming anyone (Cuban or whoever) to our country, especially if they are afraid of their government. I also believe that Juan Miguel is not speaking for himself, because of repercussions that Castro may inflict upon him or friends still in Cuba. I will follow this very closely. I want everyone to follow very closely. This, I believe, is a terrible time in our history. The media twists stories and lies to the people who want to know about what is going on in their world. The government lies to the media and the people. We can find it very difficult to try to sift through all the B$ that is being fed to us. Who is not telling it straight when there are 2 points of view? I love this country, and I am tired of being lied to, tired of events like Ruby Ridge and Waco, and now Miami. We can all get along. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 04-24-2000).]
jadison
04-24-2000, 09:48 PM
Well I'd also like to be a part of this thread...seems like everyone and their mother practically is!
One basic rule of conversation (or chatting or posting) is not to talk about politics or religion. It seems like you're asking for trouble when you do, cause sooner or later there's going to be a debate. Even though this topic is not necessarily involved deeply in the above I believe like many other political issues this will involve a debate! I would not like to see this thread closed because it gets "too nasty", we all are just stating our opinions or atleast trying to.
Me personally, well I have a few thoughts, but ever since the media went crazy over this (I'm seeing this topic EVERYWHERE!!!!) I haven;t really chose a "side" (I'm playin it safe http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif. All I'd like to say is I hope what happens is what's best for Elian...but I don't think anyone knows FOR SURE what is best for him, when he grows up he'll find out! I just hope that in the future foreign policies and other international issues will be a thing of the past, we all will be united and leave our differences behind. But until that mystical day, I'm for my COUNTRY, I'm proud to be an AMERICAN, and I praise FREEDOM.
RED***WHITE***BLUE
-jd-
PS. I hope that in no way was what I said misleading or had a negative effect/result on anyone reading it. If so, I apologize.
One basic rule of conversation (or chatting or posting) is not to talk about politics or religion. It seems like you're asking for trouble when you do, cause sooner or later there's going to be a debate. Even though this topic is not necessarily involved deeply in the above I believe like many other political issues this will involve a debate! I would not like to see this thread closed because it gets "too nasty", we all are just stating our opinions or atleast trying to.
Me personally, well I have a few thoughts, but ever since the media went crazy over this (I'm seeing this topic EVERYWHERE!!!!) I haven;t really chose a "side" (I'm playin it safe http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif. All I'd like to say is I hope what happens is what's best for Elian...but I don't think anyone knows FOR SURE what is best for him, when he grows up he'll find out! I just hope that in the future foreign policies and other international issues will be a thing of the past, we all will be united and leave our differences behind. But until that mystical day, I'm for my COUNTRY, I'm proud to be an AMERICAN, and I praise FREEDOM.
RED***WHITE***BLUE
-jd-
PS. I hope that in no way was what I said misleading or had a negative effect/result on anyone reading it. If so, I apologize.
narayan
04-24-2000, 10:00 PM
You totally ruined the negative atmosphere! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif I will say that I like debating and "arguing" with everyone, and I hope that no one takes any offense to my tone. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
medo
04-24-2000, 11:43 PM
Hello,
Life could be boring without a different opinions.
Medo
http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
Life could be boring without a different opinions.
Medo
http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
tkray
04-24-2000, 11:44 PM
I'll keep this short.
First of all immigration laws being what they are, if you are caught in the water off the US coastline, you get sent back. If you make it on land, you can ask for asylum. If they see you swim ashore, you get sent back.
If they save you from a sinking ship a 100 feet from shore, you get sent back.
Also, according to international law, the boy should have been sent back a long time ago. I'm just stating the law, I don't really agree with this in all cases.
It really boils down to following the law. We follow laws every day we don't like, thats the way it works. This situation is politics.
Does anyone remember when Castro's ex-wife fled to America with his son? How old was he? About 6? Did Castro get him back? Think maybe thats why Castro is in an uproar about this?
I feel for the kid, I wish he could stay, but the law is the law.
First of all immigration laws being what they are, if you are caught in the water off the US coastline, you get sent back. If you make it on land, you can ask for asylum. If they see you swim ashore, you get sent back.
If they save you from a sinking ship a 100 feet from shore, you get sent back.
Also, according to international law, the boy should have been sent back a long time ago. I'm just stating the law, I don't really agree with this in all cases.
It really boils down to following the law. We follow laws every day we don't like, thats the way it works. This situation is politics.
Does anyone remember when Castro's ex-wife fled to America with his son? How old was he? About 6? Did Castro get him back? Think maybe thats why Castro is in an uproar about this?
I feel for the kid, I wish he could stay, but the law is the law.
jad1097
04-25-2000, 12:33 AM
The fourth amendment went out the door when they disobeyed a court to give custody to the father. The government had the legal right to do what they did.
However, absolute freedom cannot exist. If you can do ANYTHING you want to, then you won't care about your community obligations. So rules do have to be set up to keep a peace between citizens. If those rules are broken, then certain freedoms (as defined in the rules) are revoked temporarily or permanently as justice. Responsibility is a requirement, not an option, of freedom.
Absolute freedom = anarchy
These people don’t care about there community that was obvious when they started all the fires and etc. This is not the first time Cuban Americans have done something such as this (blocking streets to get what they want) and I am sure it is not the last either.
They are lucky they were not brought up on kidnapping charges, just one among several they could be brought up on. Had this been an American child with an American father and the uncle refused to give the child to the father after a direct order by the court they would not have let this go one for this long and the uncle would be in jail!
I think the fax with the agreement is BS. Negotiations went on for months not a few hours or days. The uncle did say publicly that they would have to take the child by force and they did what he asked for.
And a good thing did happen this Easter weekend A FATHER AND SON WERE REUNITED!
However, absolute freedom cannot exist. If you can do ANYTHING you want to, then you won't care about your community obligations. So rules do have to be set up to keep a peace between citizens. If those rules are broken, then certain freedoms (as defined in the rules) are revoked temporarily or permanently as justice. Responsibility is a requirement, not an option, of freedom.
Absolute freedom = anarchy
These people don’t care about there community that was obvious when they started all the fires and etc. This is not the first time Cuban Americans have done something such as this (blocking streets to get what they want) and I am sure it is not the last either.
They are lucky they were not brought up on kidnapping charges, just one among several they could be brought up on. Had this been an American child with an American father and the uncle refused to give the child to the father after a direct order by the court they would not have let this go one for this long and the uncle would be in jail!
I think the fax with the agreement is BS. Negotiations went on for months not a few hours or days. The uncle did say publicly that they would have to take the child by force and they did what he asked for.
And a good thing did happen this Easter weekend A FATHER AND SON WERE REUNITED!
jad1097
04-25-2000, 12:41 AM
Tapeworm that is not called for!
Has the child asked to speak to his so called lawyers? I don't think so. The lawyers do not have the right to see him just because they want to, unless they get a court order. The father has custody and has the right hire his and his sons lawyers if he wishes to. They are the uncles lawyers not the childs.
Has the child asked to speak to his so called lawyers? I don't think so. The lawyers do not have the right to see him just because they want to, unless they get a court order. The father has custody and has the right hire his and his sons lawyers if he wishes to. They are the uncles lawyers not the childs.
narayan
04-25-2000, 06:48 AM
The way I understand that law, and I do not know for sure, but I think the government must find the person on the shore or at sea for that law to take effect. Therefore one can be brought in by a private citizen. I will research this tonight.
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