Computers are taking over our lives?

[[Neo770]]

I am doing a debate at school. The topic is

"Computers are taking over our lives"

I am on the negitive side. Any help that you could give on this topic would be very helpfull as I have nothing at the moment. any comments, suggestions or websites would be great. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

Thanks.

[hd581]

I never did debate. If you're on the negative I suppose that means you're going to argue the opposite of that (computers are just tools or something). I don't have any real good points but you should try the Soap Box Forum at arstechnica (http://forum.arstechnica.com/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=The+Soap+Box&number=10&DaysPrune=10&LastLogin=). Just post something outlandish like "Do you guys see the alarming trend here? COMPUTERS WILL RUN THE WORLD!" and they'll gladly pick a fight w/ you.

[pickel]

I thought they already have ????? You just don't realize this fact until you two or ... three... No debate here http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by pickel (edited 04-12-2000).]

[Ed_S]

Sounds like you've got the tough side of that argument!

Wish I could help, but the fact is that very little in MY life is not at least somewhat dependent on a computer.

[CMonster]

Please clarify which side of the debate you are on - from my GPOV (geek point of view) arguing that they are taking over (which is true) is the "negative" side.

BTW - "..I can't let you do that Daaaaaaave.."

[hd581]

Actually Ed, I'd say he's got the easy side of the argument.

You're dependent upon your computer but is it taking over your life? I'm very dependent upon my car as are millions of people (not my car, their own), but I wouldn't say my car has taken over my life. If you took it away from me, I'd live closer to work. And bike.

[CMonster]

Okay..one more thought "Guns don't kill, computers do..."

We are on the verge of a digitally administered dictatorship in which every miniscule aspect of our lives will be and is being monitored.

Video survelience and automated ticketing at busy intersections is jsut the beginning. Virtually all automoiles and trucks (of every make) sold in the US today have a system known as OBD2 (onboard diagnostics). In its early days there was much debate over a proposed feature that would have transmitted emissions problems (the good old "check engine" light) directly to the government - kind of like the "On-Star" system. You would have received notice to correct by mail. This feature will be implimented soon.

Also, OBD2, can and does disable the transmission shift on certain vehicles after a certain number of starts, if you do not have the "check engine" trouble code repaired.

More is on the way, welcome to paradise. Line up for soma.

[[Neo770]]

Thanx for all the help everyone. I am on the negative meaning that I argue that computers are NOT taking over our lives. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[mgordon99]

0011 1010 1110 0001 1111 0101 0100 0110, however,

1100 0001 0101 1001 0110 0100 1000 0011.....

http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[hd581]

Originally posted by CMonster:
....OBD2, can and does disable the transmission shift on certain vehicles after a certain number of starts, if you do not have the "check engine" trouble code repaired.

This I assume is implemented for our safety. This would be a good example of how computers are saving our lives and not taking over them.

The traffic lights are run by a computer program (of some sort). They control our actions on the street but only to the point of protecting us.

Neo##, you'll prob end up having to define "taking over our lives". I would interpret that as "controlling our lives to a point where our actions are defined by them". But it could be "taking up more and more of our time". Could go anywhere.

[Ed_S]

hd581 - Actually, I wasn't really refering to my PC, but all the things in life that are comp related or controlled.

My job - sure, years ago we did it w/o them, but could we now? No, that would slow us down so badly we'd loose business. That's if we could even figure out how, since some of the things we must have are not (and more recent stuff never was) available in any other format.

Every company we all do business with is in this same situation.
Could financial institutes function?
Utility companies?
Communications?
Government?
etcetera.

Then there's all the things we all have which include some sort of chip or processor. Almost anything electronic.

And that car you mentioned, unless it's a classic, has a processor (or several).

No, I may be slightly http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif addicted to my system, but we're all getting more and more dependent on computers as a whole!

Ed

[seti]

Computers are enhancing our lives, not dominating them. It's not like electronics have encroached upon the human spirit, we still strive to move forward.

That’s my 3 cents. (Canadian http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif)

[CMonster]

I too think computers are enhancing our lives - and like any other tool, they can be used to help or hurt. What I am tired of is the increased use of these devices by well-meaning bureaucrats to micro manage every aspect of our lives.

"This I assume is implemented for our safety"

Actually, causing the transmission to stay in 1st or 2nd gear was done to enhance the environment (edit~ what I meant by that is my sarcastic way of saying that it forces you to go in for service so that you will not keep on ignoring a fault that might be causing the vehicle to exceed emissions standards); It also "enhances" a qualified repair station's "bottom $$ line," and insures the survival and retirement of another group of dedicated government employees in an obsucre branch of the EPA.

For example, if you "gas-up" your car and forget to tighten the fill cap adequately, the vapor recovery system of your OBD2 vehicle will set a code and activate a trouble light. This light will not go out and the code will not clear until you have the problem checked at your expense at a local dealer or certified, and properly equiped, emmisions repair center. Tightening the filler cap after the code is already set will not correct the problem and if you keep driving it after 250 starts the vehicle's automatic transmission will be disabled - possibly on the day that you are rushing your wife to the hospital for the birth of your first child.

~edit: gee - we have to be so careful how we say things...



[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 04-14-2000).]

[welsh wizard]

depends on what you consider the neg side,

computers mean I don't talk to my wife, because I am on the net all day,
or
my wife is on the net all day,
bad "I want to talk to her,"
bad "Great it means she can't nag me!"
good " being on the net she sold 8 system today, that means the bank account is no longer in the Red"
Good " as I am away from home I can e-mail her, or goto Yahoo chat and speek to even when she has the phone line tied up"
just depends how you look at it, one thing positive to one person can be made negitive to another.
http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif
WW

[seti]

CMonster, can you give me examples of "increased use of these devices by well-meaning bureaucrats to micro manage every aspect of our lives." I'm not testing you or anything like that. I just can't think of any goverment controlled systems that have an illogical infusion of modern technology. I'm very curious now, because I had not heard about that transmission lockout untill now, and I don't like that...even though it comes from the private sector.

[Morpheus1964]

CMonster... I have a degree in Automotive Technology, and have never heard anything about transmissions being disabled by the CEL. and you're wrong about code set - All domestic and foreign manufacturers are required to follow the OBDII standard since 1996, which includes an instruction set that checks for codes at every startup, and if a fault code was noted once, but has not been for 50 or 100 starts (depending on severity), it will clear that code from memory.

Also, setting the transmission not to shift up would be more detrimental to the environemt than letting it go, because lower gears require the engine to work harder (thus makin gmore pollution) in order to maintain a certain speed.

[Hoopla]

Should be able to gleen something from this
extensive article on related topic... http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy.html

[Jinx67]

Okay here is the negetives of the computer revolution. Lack of true independent thought, true independant thought comes from solitude not patched to others thoughts via the W.W.W..

Point 2 dissassociation between personal and web life . Some people Begin to envision themselves as 2 completly seperate personas their reality persona and their web persona.

Ive met people who spend allmost all of thier free time on the web disregarding all the things that are happening around them..

Point 3 A ongoing trend towards a totally obeese society in north america "not downing anyone " But the fact remains that people are ever increasingly becoming obeese in north america " Per capita percentage".

Point 4 A lack of interaction with the natural environment. You can spend all the time you want online researhing animals plants etc.. But you still wont get the full effect you would being able to, to see them in reality.

Case in point I took my stepson on a fishing trip with me last August. Anyway we parked the car and were walking when a sandhill crane flew up in the air. I swear my stepson allmost whizzed in his pants. Becuase allthough he knew what a sandhill crane was.

The net gave him no perspective as to how large this bird is, and when one took off 20 feet away it damnn near terrified him http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif.

Case in point, we as human beings still percieve the world around us. Its the very reason we have come as far as we have intellect wise. So why should we rob ourselves of the oppurtunity we have been given by closing ourselves behind a keyboard.

A computer is simply a tool but not a substitute for reality and thats what we need to keep in perspective.

Hope this helps your cause to one extant or another http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif.. And good luck on your debate..

[medo]

Hello,

A some of negative points:

Alienation: less direct contacts with fellow humans
Decrease of intelligence: some sociology and psychology authors claims that children who spent more than hour a day playing games had decrease in intelligence test result by 10-15% comparing with children who play 1-2 hours weekly.
Lack of imagination: almost like above but negative result in creative tests.

(Well I can imagine the uproar from some of you)

Medo

http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by medo (edited 04-14-2000).]

[welsh wizard]

Nah they not really taking over our lives they are just convenient, yesterday the computer saved me walking from the workshop to the house, just sent Her in doors an e-mail asking her to make a cuppa tea. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
WW

[nk4]

I believe such psychology tests are of little value. You can't just call all computerised entertainment "video games". Is it the same playing a well made adventure game or RPG and playing mortal combat or whatever else they have on the tests? There are computer games that stimulate the brain, as well as those that stimulate reflexes but let the brain go numb, but if the child is exposed to other mental activities(school) I doubt any long term effects. If you locked up a kid in a room for 3 months with nothing but action games, then you could argue its damaging. But then again, I believe 3 months of Ricki Lake on TV would do much more damage than any video game as far as intelligence goes.

I guess you could also do tests to prove that TV reduces intelligence, but most people would understand that the only common thing between say, documentaries and soaps is the delivery device(TV), and they would have different(if indeed any) effect on intelligence. I'm sure many people in the 50s treated TV as many treat computers now, just because they are relatively new and just now becoming popular.

[hd581]

[Neo#] said:
I am on the negative meaning that I argue that computers are NOT taking over our lives.
LOL! You guys are providing arguments for the opposition. Neo#, don't let your opponents see this webpage, or you'll just be giving them ammo!

[MadMatt]

The true test is to ask what would happen if ALL the computers suddenly didn't work? Hate to get morbid, but what if some madman detonated a few nukes in orbit and fried EVERY Integrated circuit on the planet? After the planes crash and a few nuclear plants melt down, what would the long term impact be?

No communication, No lights, Cars made after 1978 won't run, even if you could get gas, etc. Many places, especially in the US Southwest wouldn't even have water. Some places would hardly notice, but the western industrialized world would very quickly find it difficult to even feed it's population: No fertilizer deliveries, no water for irrigation, no way to get the food to the people.

I know it sounds like the plot to a bad movie, but it really could happen.

Of course computers haven't completely taken over, but we are certainly overly dependent on them....

[This message has been edited by MadMatt (edited 04-14-2000).]

[jad1097]

CM
Very intresting I have not heard of this. Could you not just disconnect the battery for a few seconds to reset the computer as on older model cars? I will have to do some research on this and talk to some friends who are still working as mechanics the next time I am in Florida.

As for surveillance it is everywhere you go in one way or another. I was looking at apartments and noticed that some in Florida require drug screening! It seems soon everyone except politicians will be screened on a regular basis.

[CMonster]

Hey Jad,

This feature was specific to a certain model 98-99 Buick that we dealt with at PD (but it was not just a feature implimented on police vehicles), beyond that I do not know what vehicles GM has implimented this on.

And the ECMs now have a lithium battery or something similar onboard - it requires a scan tool to clear the memory - they even hold the mileage, max speed driven, and in the BCM even the antilock brake information is stored - i.e what speed the antilock system was activated etc. - this can come in handy debunking the "my brakes failed" excuse. Also no more disconnecting the speedo cable or setting the odomoter back - you will be busted.

I think that for the most part these types of smart electronics are a good thing, but the potential for abuse is always there.

Newer Fords have a feature that prevents shifting a started vehicle from park into gear if a tail light is burnt out. It is documented in the owner's manual - you have to shift into Neutral then start it then you can shift...

More is sure to come, GPS equiped vehicles will be easier to recover than those with Lojack - and soon a feature may even allow law enforcement to remotely disable your car - no more high speed chases .. er except in the case of older vehicles.

[jad1097]

Thanks CM,
I had no idea that they have put a battery in the ECM. This is good in some ways but very inconvenient for someone like me who works on their own cars. As if it is not bad enough that I have to use a multi-meter on both my cars now since I no longer have access to the proper tools such as a Snap-on scanner etc, man I miss that thing sometimes.

I guess the days of me working on my car may come to an end.

[Ptrper]

Seti, you asked CMonster how well meaning politicians are micromanaging us. Let me answer that with this example.

In the army, we are always trying to improve the odds in our favor. The newest concept for this is Force XXI. Tomorrow's soldier will be better equipped and better trained. OK, as for the equipment. The government has come up with an HUD(Heads Up Disply) that is compact enough to fit on a Kevlar helmet. This HUD will give the soldier information about the battlefield conditions, GPS coordinates, enemy information as to the size and equipment, basically a personal *On-Star system.

Now I don't mind that we get all these new gadgets and widgets, but then arises the question. Why not tag our soldiers with a chip that contains all their pertinent information, like how we do cats and dogs now. The justification for this would be that we would never lose accountability for soldiers, we would know where POWs were being held, etc... And then, maybe, since it worked so well with soldiers, why not civilians? Nobody could get kidnapped, ID cards would no longer be necessary since it is implanted in us... Think this is impossible? Its on the verge of happening. Thought you could stay anonymous forever? Think again. BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU!

Orwell was a genius that was ahead of his time. It sure seems like we are headed into a Orwellian nightmare. Sure, computers are great, they make life easier, but someone will always find ways to abuse it. Are you ready and willing to let the government know everything you do and everywhere you go??...

Morpheus, thats a nice degree and I envy your money saving skill, but think, if you had a degree in Information Technology, you would be rich.

Seriously though, I'm thinking about some kind of vocational school. What kind of job can I expect to get with an AS in automotive technology? And what is the salary range?



[This message has been edited by Ptrper (edited 04-14-2000).]

[CMonster]

Morpheous1964 - I cannot boast of a lofty degree, and you are right about the code clearing if it is not seen again after so many starts - my bad.

In case of hard failure if you keep on ignoring it newer GM vehicles have a feature that cripples the transmission in order to get you to go in for service.

I do have 18 years of hands on experience including 8 years with fleet services of Los Angeles Department of Water and Power and 2 years with the Los Angeles Police Department.

As far as I know, the transmission crippling applies only to certain model newer GM vehicles. As for the trouble light and DTC and the evaporative control systems that one I can vouch for from personal experience - do not forget to tighten the filler cap on a 1997 Geo Prizm - why the code did not clear I do not know but there was nothing wrong with the evap system.

With a screen name of "Morpheous" I thought you would be a little more skeptical of the use of computer technologies (like the kind used to tag pets with a subcutaneous chip) - but then I guess we are all guilty of having our heads at least some degree into the sand. It is not that I do not believe that these automated monitoring systems can help us and enrich our lives, but depending on the current political climate, I may not always be on the "right" side of the powers-that-be.

Yours very truly,

Robert T. Morris http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif - well, not really...




[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 04-14-2000).]

[CMonster]

Furthermore when I said "Guns dont kill, computers do." I was using an NRA slogan to illustrate the idea that it is not computers that dominate our lives (or hold that potential) but the people using them.

As for examples of the government using technology to micromanage our lives; I am refering to the dramatic increase in surveillance on many levels, including but not limited to: mass monitoring of phone, internet, radio, and commerce traffic; not to mention that even excessive use of electricity sets a "red flag" and will result in the reporting of your suspicious use to certain authorities (for those of you who need it spelled out for suspicion of growing pot, grass, weed, marijuana).

[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 04-14-2000).]