Elian, Cuban child [RANT]

[jad1097]

As many of you know I have been following this since this child has arrived here in the states. This entire situation has become out of control IMO. I feel these people have chosen to kidnap this child from his father.

Let me explain why I feel this why. These people refuse to give up this child due to their political beliefs. I think this has blocked their real concern for the child’s best interest. Yes Cuba is a communist country, but the father has parental rights to his son. These people have forced him to come to this country to get his child.
The relatives who have this child will not work with our government by refusing to give the child up when it comes to that and it will. They claim “separating Elian from them could cause serious trauma”. Well how about him seeing his mother die or not being able to see his father or being forced to live in a foreign country with unfamiliar people. ? I would imagine that would cause serious trauma!

What really gets me upset is when they are willing to break the law with a severe disrespect for my country by blocking roads and causing chaos in a large city. They have now decided to a “campaign of civil disobedience” and block roads again! If I were still down there I would run them over and claim I did it being in fear of my life. “Roaming groups of protesters disrupted traffic on major streets during the evening rush hour that day. More than 50 officers in riot gear used tear gas to disperse hundreds of protesters from one intersection. At least 135 people were arrested.”


And what the hell is this? "When they don't leave you an option, you must choose - to stand up upon your dignity or live like a slave, humiliated and on your knees for the rest of your life."

I feel these people have taken over the city I was raised in and they think it is some kind of New Cuba. These people have run from their problems instead of standing up for what they believe and fighting for their rights in their own country. They come running to this country and hide behind our laws and then blatantly disrespect them by causing chaos in the streets. They have their little Cuban-American militia swearing one day they will take down Castro. They go into the Everglades and practice their combat skills with paintball guns with no real hope of ever defeating Castro. They smuggle people out of Cuba to bring them here just to lower our pay scale (fact) in south Florida. Many of them refuse to either learn or speak our language and have even tried to make Florida a bilingual state, if I am correct several years ago they tried to make Spanish the official language of Florida.

What makes it worse is the Mayor of the City of Miami refuses to cooperate with the federal authorities in the return of this child. Just because he is Cuban he refuses to respect our countries decision to return this child to his father.


This is just how I feel and I had to get it of my chest. It is only my opinion and many may disagree with me but I do not care for the choices these people are making. They made me feel as though I was a foreigner in my own country when I lived there. Which was one of the reasons I moved. The sad thing is I may move back because my wife’s parents are very sick and may not live much longer.


Enough said.

Quotes are from http://news.excite.com/news/ap/000407/11/int-cuban-boy-miami

[wyvrn]

I feel these people have taken over the city I was raised in and they think it is some kind of New Cuba. These people have run from their problems instead of standing up for what they believe and fighting for their rights in their own country. They come running to this country and hide behind our laws and then blatantly disrespect them by causing chaos in the streets. They have their little Cuban-American militia swearing one day they will take down Castro. They go into the Everglades and practice their combat skills with paintball guns with no real hope of ever defeating Castro. They smuggle people out of Cuba to bring them here just to lower our pay scale (fact) in south Florida. Many of them refuse to either learn or speak our language and have even tried to make Florida a bilingual state, if I am correct several years ago they tried to make Spanish the official language of Florida.

What makes it worse is the Mayor of the City of Miami refuses to cooperate with the federal authorities in the return of this child. Just because he is Cuban he refuses to respect our countries decision to return this child to his father.

That is what makes me mad. This is a country supposedly for everyone. One culture does not need to dominate an area and disregard laws that apply everywhere else. While I do not mind refugees from other countries (I thank God that my fiance is one http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif ), I do believe there should be regulation about who and when can come. The US govt. needs to take a serious position on immigration in border states, especially those south like CA, NM, TX, and FLA. Border patrols are not stopping mass immigrations, but I do not have a better answer. I recently spent some time in FL and could not believe the difference between parts of that state and every other state I have been in. As is, we might as well annex FL to Cuba and get it over with.

[mgordon99]

Should the boy be with his father? Yes

Will the boy someday understand the magnitude of the sacrifice his mother made for him? Yes

Will the boy someday want to return to the freedom that his mother died to give him? Yes

So, in a nutshell, one way or another he will be back here in the good ol' USA.

[Futzelman]

I think this way:
Why do we think that we are better off in the US or any other democracy?
I have to stress about work, work my **** off because everything is money money, be scared of rising crime due to "either you have money and are happy or you dont and dont have even healthcare".
Cuba might be communicst, but life is much more relaxed I can imagine. Famly bonds are much stronger and materialism is not given .
So why do we assume that the US is this paradise it once was?

Futzel

[plucky duck]

Poor child loses his mother, loses his father, loses his right to have a say in any of this BS mess, and now is about to lose his FREEDOM.

This has certainly been way blown out of proportions.

This seems more like a Cuban vs. US political warfare more than anything else.

Wherever the child may end up, lets just hope peace and health is with this little boy.


Plucky

[mgordon99]

Hey Futz, it's not paradise, but I'll take it over communism any day of the week. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[wyvrn]

Janet Reno has ordered his return, I just read over on Yahoo. Link right off of the main page. Hope this boy this best.

[narayan]

Before the child washed up on the beach, Juan Miguel (dad) called his relatives in Miami and told them that they were on the way. How dare we send a child to a terrible place ruled by a murderer and dictator. Have we as Americans forgotten how terrible Castro is? Have we as Americans forgotten how terrible Communism is? Do we as Americans truly understand the freedom that we have? It is the dream of many to live in the U.S. I believe in my heart that Juan Miguel wants his child in the States, and that one day, he hopes to have his freedom also. Juan Miguel seems like a good man, from what I've seen on TV. If he truly had his freedom, he would have been given the option to stay in the United States. Castro is telling Juan Miguel what to say. I hope and pray that Elian and his father are able to stay in the United States together.

~edit~ BTW, The United States of America has an "open door" policy towards ALL Cubans.

[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 04-07-2000).]

[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 04-07-2000).]

[Biff]

Yeh theres a BIG political agenda, The USA is one of the best places in the world to live. All I know is, I'll NEVER, ever, ever go back to Cuba NEVER EVER

[seti]

As long as a child is loved and cared for I don't see any excuse for goverment (ANY goverment) to get involved in family matters.

He's one boy that has been yet another victim of the american press. The whole situation has spiraled out of control. This isn't, or shouldn't be about democracy or communism as it is just one boy. This is about family, and the tradjady of loosing a mother.

Last night Jay Leno made a joke....something to the effect of "what are Elian and his father going to do while they're here (like they were on a vacation or something)....I doubt they'll go white water rafting"

I thought it was in very bad taste.

I'm glad Reno came to the desision she did.

[OuTpaTienT]

Obviously none of you, even those who claim to be following the story, have a clue about what's really going on.

First, the father divorced the mother 2 years before Elian was born. Obviously they got together at least once after that. But he has rarely seen the boy. I'm sure he loves him and has feeling for him, but he hasn't been much of a father.

Second, when the Florida relatives initially took custody of Elian, the Father called them and said thank God the boy's alright, he'll have a better life in America. Sprint phone documentation backs this up.

Third, the very first contact demanding us to return the boy did not come from the father, or even from his city...it came from Fidel Castro's residence. (also has been backed up with documentation). Uh,....HELLO?????? Wake the **** up people! There was no word from the father until about 4 days after that. Plenty of time for Fidel's goons to put the thumbscrews on him.

Fourth, don't you think that if the father was truly wanted the child to be with him in Cuba, that he would've been raising holy hell from day ONE? Not 4 months later!!!

Five, didn't any of you hear the father's "speech" he gave when in Washington yesterday? OMG! If you guys really think that's the speil of a father that just loves his son and wants him to return...then I'm just dumbfounded...I know you guys are smarter than this, come'on. That propaganda bullsh** he was speaking was straight of the desk of Fidel.

Six, I'm all for parental rights...but you know what? There are no parental rights in Cuba. NONE! The boy, as all are, will be property of the state. And if you don't believe it, then you need to do some more research before you speak. At 12 years of age or sooner, he will be out in Fidel's sugar fields or tobacco fields just like every other young boy. The parent(s) will have NO SAY in the matter. Again, I say to you people...HELLO? Wake up please.

Seven, If you think Elian should be deported to Cuba, then I'm sure you also agree that all of the 30 million illegal aliens throughout our country should be deported. Even those from places like communist China. "Hey, good going, you escaped from under the tyranny of communist China and made it here to the land of the free. Well, too bad, pack your bags and get the hell out of here. If communism is good enough for Elian then it must be good enough for you too."


Do I even need to state my opinion? I think the boy should stay with his relatives that obviously love and care for him a great deal.

[narayan]

Biff, tell me about Cuba, and how you came to live in Canada. I would be interested. E-mail me if you wish. Thanks. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[OuTpaTienT]

Biff, don't just email, please tell us all your story. Obviously almost everyone here is completely ignorant to the subject and could use a lesson.

Be honest, is Cuba really "not all that bad"? Is there any freedom to say whatever you want? Is there really opportunity to be anything more than a peasant? What do Cuban's generally think of America(ns)?

Please do share some of your insight with us.

[barry glisson]

if Elian was any nationality other than cuban he would have been deported immediately. remember the chinese that jumped ship in N.Y. or the ones in Calif. or the hatians every week or so here in fla. im sorry these people are not fleeing comunism they are racing to the american dollar.in south fla. if you dont speak spanish you cant do business. i owned a business is south fla. and had to order supplies from another district because no one in the sales department in miami spoke english. this cost me extra in time and shipping charges.it was not a small company either. nationally known company and the best in their field. in miami the cuban shop owners have two prices one for cubans and another for everyone else. i have lived there i have worked there. when i return i feel like i am unwelcome in the state i was born in the state my parents were born in and there parents and grand parents as well. sorry to get so wound up . barry

[jad1097]

That is very true Barry. That is one of the reasons I left. They have very little respect for americans or our country.

My mother-in-law is Cuban and you should see the deals she can get, it is a shame these people are this way. Many of them are very talented and good workers.

I was raised in Miami Carol City and lived in N. Miami until I moved here almost five years ago. Now my wife wants to go back indefinitly because both her parents are seriously ill and need our help, but this is a very diffucult decission for me to make. Like you I do not feel welcome because I feel as though I am the immigrant.

They should be treated like all other immigrants.

Also Biff I would also be intrested in hearing your opinion on this.

[seti]

The law is very clear, A child who's lost his mother belongs with the sole surviving parent.

I understand and respect with all my heart the deep-seated beliefs which the Cuban exile community feels on this subject, I wholeheartedly reject Cuba's system of government. Mr. Gonzalez and I do not share the same political beliefs. But it is not our place to punish a father for his political beliefs or where he wants to raise his child, If we were to start judging parents on the basis of their political beliefs, we would change the concept of family for the rest of time.
Janet Reno

You may disagree, but she's not "completely ignorant".

Five, didn't any of you hear the father's "speech" he gave when in Washington yesterday? OMG! If you guys really think that's the speil of a father that just loves his son and wants him to return...then I'm just dumbfounded...I know you guys are smarter than this, come'on. That propaganda bullsh** he was speaking was straight of the desk of Fidel.
OuTpaTienT

All you had to do was listen to him and look at him and see how much he obviously loves this little boy,
Janet Reno

I don't presume to know how he feels.

I thinking assumtion is more dangerous than ignorence. All we really have is american television to provide us with "fact". All I know is that if a son and loveing father can be together it's a good thing regardless of politics and boarders.

[Stogie]

screw this little sh**! send him and his dad back to cuba so i dont have to read or hear about it anymore dammit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



[This message has been edited by socalgal (edited 04-07-2000).]

[OuTpaTienT]

Oh yeah, Janet Reno. LOL. Let's leave it up to her, she's a great descision maker. (cough...bull-dyke...cough) Can you say, Waco? how 'bout Ruby Ridge? Yeah Miss Reno is a pillar of good judgement...excuse me I have to puke.

Well, I don't have much more to say on the subject. I know there ain't much chance of changing anyone's personal prejudices. If you don't like Cubans or maybe just don't like'em in our country then that's your own issue to deal with. I don't think Elian should have to pay because just because you have had bad experiences.

[seti]

I thought we all loved Reno, that's why I quoted her.

The law is the law regardless of yours, mine, or reno's opinions.

It's not like she isn't adviced by the 100's of people under her that are all in positions of knowing the facts better than anybody with a tv remote.

I presented the quotes as the goverments position.


Stogie.....you're cool.

[jad1097]

I am far from being a prejudice person. If you grew up were I did you may understand what I am getting at. I have friends of many races and colors and my wife is Cuban. And her mother being Cuban feels similar to the way I do about returning the child to his father regardless of her personal feelings for Castro.
I am also sure she is ashamed at they way these people acting. She happens to be a great person as are many Cubans but these people who are causing all this BS are real a$$holes. And what Berry and I both said about Miami is true.
I grew up in a unique community, not many people have had that opportunity, I have seen many cultures live in one community and get along without prejudice.

As far as Janet Reno goes every time I see her on TV she has the shakes. Maybe she is sick or is going through the DT's. She did do some good things in Florida and no I don't like her.


Maybe my words are not quite clear or have come out in the wrong way. I don’t care for what they have done to Miami or the way they many of them treat Americans.

I think Elian should not be forced to live without his father.

[OuTpaTienT]

Actually, I apologize for accusing you, jad (and others), of being prejudice. I obviously misinterpeted your post. And seeing how I have never even been to that part of the country I can't speak from any first hand knowledge...whereas you can. So I'll trust your judgement on that aspect of this agrument.

[narayan]

seti, obviously you don't know the law. America has an "open door" policy towards ALL Cubans. As for the way that the Cubans in Miami are acting, all I can say is that if I were in Miami, I would be there with them. THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS NO BUSINESS IN CUSTODY SUITS. I applaud the mayor of Miami. Let the Federal Government bring in the military to send this child to work in the tobacco fields. The government does not have the law on its side, only intimidation. MAKES ME SICK When did we allow the government of the United States so much power to decide custody?

[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 04-08-2000).]

[barry glisson]

as i have said before if he was hatian he would have been deported immediately lets have equal enforcement of the law.jmo barry

[OuTpaTienT]

I, for one, never voted to give the govt this much power. They just take it. A little at a time. And the "sheeple" of the United States are just too ignorant and/or lazy to give a ****.

However, I must admit, I believe the law technically states that if a Cuban refugee reaches our shores then asylum is granted, but if they are rounded up out at sea then they are deported. And I do believe Elian was picked up out at sea.

But I still believe Elian should be allowed to stay. So sue me.

I too applaud the Mayor. If for nothing else, then for having the "kahonees" to stand up for his convictions. Rare to see any politician with this trait now-a-days.


[This message has been edited by OuTpaTienT (edited 04-08-2000).]

[happyhamster]

Leaving aside all political arguments, I simply feel sorry for the poor child. He's too young to understand all that. He's become a center of media, government and public attention for the moment, and may get accustomed to it. In a very short time the story will be over one way or another, and he'll have a very hard time understanding why he suddenly lost all that attention. This might become a psychological trauma for the rest of his life. The selfish relatives seem to be not very nice people, to say the least.

[seti]

narayan, you're right I don't know your laws off hand...I was just quoting those who make the rules (government).

I wasn't even thinking of deportation laws...I was thinking of custodial laws. In which, to the best of my knowledge states that in the event one parent is lost the other assumes duties as long as he/she is fit. His father happens to be Cuban. I don't see what that has to do with an "open door" policy.

Personally I was hoping Juan would stay in the states with his son...but I don't see that happening. In any event...I'm pro-family.


[This message has been edited by seti (edited 04-08-2000).]

[welsh wizard]

I have tried to keep out of this, not being from the USA, but things seem to be going beyond just this child, these so called family members are now using this child as a political pawn just to get their cause in the lime light, it's now time that what's right is put forward, the child has a father, his mother is now dead, as long as the father is not a threat to the child safty or life, being his most important next of kin should give him the right to have his child live with him, also what happened to that international law that meant if there was a custody despute the case had to be held where ever the childs was born, I believe the USA contersind this international law. please correct me if I am wrong.
But the child belongs with his father, even if his father is poor,this does not give the right for any member of a family to take away those rights, how many people in this world would loose rights to there children if being poor allowed others to take away their children,
this is just my 2c worth even if some may think I am sticking my nose in.
WW

[medo]

Hello,


I know I will offend some of you (sorry about that) but I want to express my opinion.

1. It is not about the child it is about bloody politics.
2. Yes, Cuba is a communist country but thanks only to USA.
3. Most of Americans are full of themselves and ignorant so they can’t understand what’s going and why some things happen abroad (includes USA government).
4. Double standards and ignorance is the American way of doing politics.
5. The kid is already so harmed that is almost unimportant were he will go.
6. Yes, he "belong" to his father.


Medo

http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[barry glisson]

fact us courts made a decision now enforce that decision get the d@#$ press out of it. cnn has caused enough amaericans to be killed already.somalia for example.

[OuTpaTienT]

How come no one will address these issues???


when the Florida relatives initially took custody of Elian, the Father called them and said thank God the boy's alright, he'll have a better life in America. Sprint phone documentation backs this up.

the very first contact demanding us to return the boy did not come from the father, or even from his city...it came from Fidel Castro's residence. (also has been backed up with documentation).

don't you think that if the father was truly wanted the child to be with him in Cuba, that he would've been raising holy hell from day ONE? Not 4 months later!!!

I'm all for parental rights...but you know what? There are no parental rights in Cuba. NONE! The boy, as all are, will be property of the state. And if you don't believe it, then you need to do some more research before you speak. At 12 years of age or sooner, he will be out in Fidel's sugar fields or tobacco fields just like every other young boy. The parent(s) will have NO SAY in the matter.

If you think Elian should be deported to Cuba, then I'm sure you also agree that all of the 30 million illegal aliens throughout our country should be deported. Even those from places like communist China. "Hey, good going, you escaped from under the tyranny of communist China and made it here to the land of the free. Well, too bad, pack your bags and get the hell out of here. If communism is good enough for Elian then it must be good enough for you too."

[Steve R Jones]

If I were Elian's father, Id love to stand in front on the "keep him here supports"(mob) and say: "You can keep him, just give me one of your children."

[seti]

While I don't assume to know all the facts...here are some things to think about outpatient.


* Sprint phone documentation? That sort of invasion of privacy is scary don't you think? Or is ok because he's a "commie" or something? Anyways people can change their minds, perhaps the father's eye's were opened to the fact that he should look after the son. Do I know this to be true? Of course not, but I can't know otherwise either.

* Who would you call if you're x-wife died when a boat capsized trying to reach the shores of america? And how exactly would you know? It's likely "Fidel Castro's residence" learned about the incident before the father did. It ended up being an international issue, and Juan when through official channels, this seams to make sense.

* Once again, maybe he didn't want the child back...but surely you can concede that an event this large can change many veiws and lifes. Not to mention he already had the support of the whole country raiseing holy hell for him.

* I see the irony of a father haveing international parental rights but not national...but none-the-less in Cuba the father will raise his son, and that's how it should be. I don't think you'd want to say they love there children any less in Cuba because of communism. As for Elian working in Fidel's sugar feilds, he'll be the recipient of national praise and adoreation upon return to Cuba...not to mention an on going source of PR for Fidel Castro( http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif)...this one boy will likely recive special attention. As for all the other children in the feilds...well know one is really talking about them are they? http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif

* This really isn't an imagration/deportation issue. It's not about communism either, as it is just one boy.


I know of course all of these can be dissmissed as speculation and the debate will go on. We can't know what the father is really feeling, or what true motivation he has, none of know him. However I'd like to belive that whatever his feelings were when it all started, he now truely wants to be part of Elian's life.

Anyway, I hope you all have a good day.

[narayan]

4. Double standards and ignorance is the American way of doing politics.
I could have not said it better myself.

If anyone here knew that a child of thiers had the oppertunity to escape slavery for a better life, would you not want that for your child? ...but none-the-less in Cuba the father will raise his son, and that's how it should be. I do not disagree that is how it should be, but Juan will not be the one raising his child.
seti, I will have a good day. You do the same http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 04-08-2000).]

[OuTpaTienT]

Just to clear up one thing: The documentation provided by Sprint simply shows that the call did indeed take place at the exact time the Florida relatives said it did. As for what was precisely said, that is spectulation.

[medo]

Hello,

Elian is so hurt with the situation and there is no way he will grow up like a normal youth. He is used as an instrument for both sides.
According to the main Australian newspapers his mother went on the trip persuaded by her lover not with genuine desire to "help" Elian.
The 6 year old is not capable of real perception and according to that he is not capable of making any decision about his future.
Most of American will forget Elian in a few months as soon as they find new headline banners to boost audience.
Do you know what's going on Kosovo now?
I grow up in communist ex Yugoslavia supported all the time by USA so I do not need lessons about communist countries.


Medo

http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif