Experience vs Certification....

[theninja]

This should get all you MCSE's going....

Which is more desirable, a person with say at least 3 years experience, or someone who has passed a test to become Certified?

In my opinion, If I needed to hire, say a NT or UNIX Admin, I would rather have someone with experience in a large corporate environment than someone with a cert and no experience.

Don't get me wrong, I do think that having a cert is a good thing. It's another feather in your cap and it sure makes those resume's look perty. I was just wondering which you would prefer, experience or cert.

theninja

[alan]

i have over 10 years exp with pc's but no paperwork i have the ability to pass them but have no desire to. experience i think goes along way towards knowing about novell, unix, dos,win3x-9x, builds, networking, hardware diags and all things software. if someone gets given a job who has just passed his mcse but has little if no time hands on where do they start from all they know is what they have read in a book but someone who has spent time learning actual hands on then in my book they should get it.
alan http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[mrdisco]

This is a no-brainer.

Tests do not test actual ability to do a job. They only test your aptitude to do well in that job.

Experience, on the other hand, is factual proof that you can do a job, because you've already done it.

There's a lot more to being an IT proffessional than mere book knowledge and memorization of facts. You have to show that you can actually use what you know. Certification is certainly helpful, in that it shows you know a great deal about how a system works -- not to mention studying for it can be a great learning experience. However, it's no substitute for experience.

Since you mentioned the MCSE, I may as well stick my comment about that. MCSE is such a popular certification that the job market has become flooded with them. MCSE's have become a commodity in the job market. You'd be better off showing your skills in experience, since mere supply has weakened the value of the certification. The return on your investment is probably not worth what you'd spend on it.

[wyvrn]

I disagree. Study for your MCSE and walk into a helpdesk job. Graduate to a desktop position in 6 months to 1 year. You are now making 40-50k a year. How many years does it take to get a college degree? If a corp is willing to give you experience and does not care about an degree or certifications (not likely), then you are fine. But most corps want these "feathers in your hat" to advance past a certain level, or they will not promote you. I also think that by studying the mcse track, I have learned much much more about networking than I did before. This alone has enhanced my life worth the cost of time spent getting here. Plus I make more money now http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif , certainly enough to have paid for my certifications 5x over at least.

Experience vs. Certifications?
Eventually, you will need both.

[This message has been edited by wyvrn (edited 03-29-2000).]

[This message has been edited by wyvrn (edited 03-29-2000).]

[Mntsnow]

I will throw my vote in with Wyvrn. For my own actual job it was "someone I knew" that got me thru the "door" as they "knew" I could do the job. The director wanted someone with a cerification. If it had not been for my boss I would NOT have gotten the job since I didnt have the piece of paper even though I could DO the job! I would say having a piece of paper is just as important and knowing how to do the job. The paper just gives the hireing person proof per se' that you know HOW to do the job.

short version:
Get atleast some sort of cert (even if it's just an A+ ) as that will open more doors for you than just saying "give me a chance" http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

ps. I have several certification now...I just didnt for my first job!

Mntsnow

[mrdisco]

You both made valid points. However, I think we're talking about two different things here.

You're talking about certification as a means to get your foot in the door. Obviously, for two people with no experience between them, the one with certification is going to get the job.

However, when you have someone with just an MCSE versus someone with 3 years of experience who hasn't taken any tests, things get interesting. Being a member of an IT middle management team, I know who I would choose.

A lot of people, though, don't realize this, and think that a certification is worth more than it is, only to be disappointed later. I know because I've seen it. Some people take a 2 week cram course at the local tech school, get their certification, and think this entitles them to a high-paying job.

I agree that certification can certainly be helpful in getting a job, especially if you have little experience. If you have two people with equal experience, the one with certification is more likely, and probably more deserving of getting the job. However, it's not a substitute for experience. Once you've worked long enough, your years start to speak for themselves much louder than any tests can for you.

I guess it also depends on what field you're in. If you're working with NT-based networks, an MCSE is probably a requirement to enter the field at some places. I, on the other hand, have a somewhat comfortable job working with Unix, and I haven't taken a single test.

[theninja]

I tend to agree with mrdisco.
Just about anyone could "take a 2 week cram course at the local tech school and get their certification". And when they get a job us experienced admins have to re-teach them anyway.

Passing a test does not a Systems Admin make.

mrdisco, Middle management/Unix Admin, isn't that an oxymoron? http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

I've been a UNIX Admin for 8yrs

theninja

[wyvrn]

Ok so if you are a Unix admin, you do not need certs supposedly. If you will be working with NT systems (read: corporate America) then you most definately will want an engineering degree, cisco and /or MCSE certs, some combination of those. So now you have to ask yourself where you are going to work. We have a total of 2 Unix admins, and a few underlings, that work in my company. Compare that to the other thousands of IT folk we have, and you see where I am coming from. Where do you Unix guys work? How did you make your start?

[wyvrn]

I think the reason NT admins are a dime a dozen is because of the demand for them. Who uses a unix-only network anymore? Not any of the fortune 500, that is for sure. When you have 50,000 users with nt on their laptops/desktops and use some NT servers, then you need a bunch of nt admins to run it. I think there is a market for both nt and unix, but I think the need for nt admins is much much higher. The reason colleges do not have a bunch of unix classes is because they could not fill up a class if they offered it, ie: no profit there. See what I mean?

[mrdisco]

I think wyvern grossly underestimates the number of Unix systems out there.

Fortune 500 companies are exactly where you find these systems -- companies that need systems capable of the kind of massive high availability storage and processing capabilities that NT simply can't give.

I work at a decent sized company which is the leading manufacturer of outdoor cooking equipment (gas grills, smokers, etc.). We use NT for our internal mail system as well as some of our departmental servers. Our company-wide file and print servers are Novell. Our mission-critical systems (ERP, warehouse management, HR, EDI) are on AIX and HP-UX boxes. NT simply doesn't have the horsepower or the uptime to handle what we need for these systems.

I don't mean to spark another Unix vs NT war, but I think you should know that Unix is just as important in the enterprise as NT. They both have their place. You're right, there are very few Unix-only networks out there, but a large company would be foolish to have an NT-only network.

Even Microsoft uses Solaris on their big web servers...

[Kronos_22]

Wyvrn...Mrdisco

As of right now I am one of those ppl taking "a cramed course". For one thing they are not wo weeks long. Another is that if my college offered Unix courses I sure as hell would try to be the first registered in it. I am getting A+,MCSE+internet, and CISCO certified. The more I know the more I am worth as far as I can figure. I have been configuring and trouble shooting systems for 6 years now. I have overclocked more machines then I can remember(cooked a couple). But I couldn't get a job with just my experience. They wanted little s**t*y pieces of paper saying that I know what I was doing. I even fixed a guys computer during an interview. The prick still didn't give me the job. And as for NT and UNIX I wish i had a copy of these 2 OS's. If I did I would sure as hell would learn them inside out. Like I have with dos,and win9x. But working as a cook at a crappy golf course dosn't allow me to bye such expensive software. Mrdisco I sure wish I would have sent u one of my resumes if u hire ppl with experience. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif Sorry for being a little seedy but I have not been given "a chance" so in my opinion go get the certifications.

Anyone know were I could get my hands on a cooked copy of unix and NT 4.0?

Kronos_22 gets off of his soap box now. And puts hise nose back into his NT exam book. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[theninja]

I've been in the IT dept for 13 yrs. Started out as a print room operator. Moved up to Comp room oper, then lead comp room oper, the kinda got suckered into running some backups on some HP machines (UNIX). And that's how it all started.
I've worked for AG Edwards (my first IT job), Mcdonnell Douglas/Boeing, the DOD and currently at Monsanto. Do not have any cert's, only a few OS specific classes (SUN).

You are correct, a MCSE would do me no good, there are cert's for UNIX that could boost my salary, maybe a couple g's. But they are VERY expensive, and who's to say it would really help my career or not? I could leave my job today, and have a new one tomorrow. UNIX admins are in high demand right now.
NT admins are a dime a dozen. Cause NT is so easy. Everyone is taking it. Check out the colleges around, they ALL have NT classes. How many you see with UNIX classes?

theninja

[Hellmund]

I reckon it's all experience,I've been o/c, setting up internet,lan,etc since I was 7 and I 'm 17 now and I know more about computers than a fare few techs I know.
People who have certifications and no experience don't have multiple resolutions to problems,they tend to have one fix and if it dosn't work it can't be fixed.I was told once I'd have to replace my modem when all it was I worked out was the plugpack.I'd always opt for experience over certifications.However employers don't work that way so it'd be best to get those sh*t* pieces of paper for now
Hellmund

[This message has been edited by Hellmund (edited 03-31-2000).]

[wyvrn]

I am not going to get into a discussion of which OS is better, because I have never run a Unix box. I think they probably both have their place. However, until I join a company that uses it a lot, I guess I will have to stick with NT and Cisco certs. One note, my brother's company is moving away from Unix and into NT because it is "a more broad-ranged OS" according to his Unix admin. His Unix admin just finished his MCSE. They will run both boxes, but NT will get more dollars from the company as they upgrade. Unix will be phased out except for a couple of servers.

[theninja]

Both os's have their pros and cons. And both have their places on the network. Believe me, Unix servers and workstations are in abundance. At my job we have over 250 Unix servers and workstations. There are about 50 NT boxes (running mail and print services).
The main difference I have seen with Unix and NT is uptime and stability.
For example: We have a SUN E10000 that has been up for 198 days. The best an NT server here has is a uptime of 28 days. (It'll prolly crash soon http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif )

No more from me on the OS holy war!

Back to the experience vs cert thing. OK, if you have a position open for a NT admin and you have 2 candidates. One with only a MCSE, the other with 3 years experience as an NT admin at another company (not at his NT machine at home) with no cert. Experience gets the job.

Getting certified is a great way to get "a chance" but does not compare to experience in my book. And that's all I got to say about that. Thanks for your input all.

Oh yeah,,,,Unix is better than NT!! neener neener. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

theninja

[Konan555]

Not saying this about all certs but,

I've met too many Microsoft certed idiots do this that the qualifications are worth anything (but they may be to employers).

Get a cert - get a job
Get experience - get respect

Hell - get both.

[SDT]

I work in a technical environment and we polled the team that I work with (50 people in very technical jobs) a few years ago about this very subject. The results were not surprising to me but they might surprise some people.
1) Education is important but not overly important.
2) Experience is important but not overly important.
3) ATTITUDE was the most important thing to look for in a prospective employee.

Which ever route that you decide to go, remember that it is your attitude that will get you hired over the next guy. There will always be someone better qualified or experienced than you are (I don't mean you personally). Develop and promote a positive attitude and you will move forward.

[sparki]

I don't know about the US but in the UK lots of the Universities are basing their systems on Linux and Unix. At my Uni (Portsmouth) the Lectures hate Microsoft with a vengence the main network is Unix based with LInux machines connected to it theses Linux machines can run NT when required to. Even though i have used all three OS's and many programmes for each one, i still think that microsoft has managed to develope such a market that ever one will have to use their software eventuly.

My deggre is based more on electronics and computing which is not to my liking. After being a member of this BB for merly a few months the amount of information i have digested from here is so hugge that im fell that i would be better off looking for experience in the feild of networking (installation/management). I can proggamme if i wanted to but i feel (certainly in the UK) that most of this work is going to the far East. But i think that some people will have to maintain the networks between us.

[Andy_L]

I'd have to agree with Konan, the tech with both will be a lot stronger in the job market and the field, but its a lot quicker to get a cert than expirience and a lot easier to quantify into a sentence on a resume.

[Konan555]

What degree are you doing sparki? I'm looking for one a bit like that.

As for the university servers - going between them is virtualy intranet speed. The UK universitys really have come up with somthing special.

Telneting to UNIX servers isn't always fun. It took 'bofin man' five minuits before he worked out how to access his account at the UEA - I've spent hours trying to find another way in.