It's about time

[jad1097]

S&W is going to start shipping guns with locks. http://www.msnbc.com/news/383528.asp?cp1=1

"External locking devices must be included in all Smith & Wesson handguns within 60 days.
There must be internal locking device on the company’s guns within the next two years."

[OuTpaTienT]

Personally I think it's a joke. But hey, if it makes you feel better...

[bdog]

What good are the locks going to do? It is up to parents to keep guns out of the hands of irresponsible kids. You think that these wackos going around shooting people are not going to be able to disable the locks?

[smokin1]

It is so hard to acquire a gun legally in
Canada anymore, and the restrictions once you have one are so great, that only the bad guys have the good ones..
http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif
and gun locks are status quo...

[jad1097]

A lock will keep a 4 or 5 year old from blowing their brother or sisters head off! I had a friend who blew of his brothers head with their father shotgun, if there was a lock on this weapon it would not have happened. Had another friend who shot another frind while playing with her fathers pistol, again a lock would have prevented this! I played with my fathers pistol and could have shot someone by mistake when I was a kid.
An internal lock is a great idea. Since it may be more diffucult to disable than an external lock.

I just feel it is about time this was done. What would make me feel better is a socity with better morals and not the apparent lack of. Or how about teaching children disipline? And these "church going" people who do not live the life they preach, this really gets me going!

I do know there are way to many laws for guns as it is.

And finally this will not keep the wackos from going around shooting people. But it my just may some childs life.

[brandon184]

Its the dirty truth.. But I'm guessing the average 6 or 7 year old could disable one of the locks if they really wanted to.

[brandon184]

Sorry for the double post... But in Canada their gun laws are EXTREMELY strict (as one of the above posts said).. Unless a kid gets a hold of his dad's hunting gun (which most that I know of have locks anyway, and aren't the easiest for a little kid to disable). Thats why there aren't NEARLY as many shootings you hear of in Canada compared to the USA.

- Brandon

[bdog]

I see your point Jad, but people must use these locks for them to work. I don't think that gun makers should have to put them on from government pressure. When I was growing up there were guns in our house. They were locked up in a safe that I did not have access to until I was responsible enough to handle them properly. I sympathize with you on the loss of your friends. It is a true tragedy. I agree a trigerlock would probably have prevented it from happening but proper education in firearm handling and keeping guns away from young kids would have prevented it as well. I look at it like the saying of give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach him how to fish and feed him for a lifetime. A trigger lock might prevent a certain accident from happening, but proper education on firearms will prevent them forever. If we begin to rely on these trigger locks, and forget about teaching kids about guns, then what is going to happen when they come across one of the millions of guns that doesn't have the locks?

[Gene C.]

smoke I saw the deal about the laws in canada. and there are alot of them snicking in. I don't understand that part. about not letting you all have them. just make laws to go by. banning them only make the smugglers more money. and as far as the locks go. a waste of time. I,my father,little brother, uncel"dads brother,uncle son, are all guns collectors and user. we have a lillte over a easy hundred guns. he all have them locked up in "homes"our own two lock style vaule and behind a deadbolt door. I have guns all over my house in every room. and they are always in reach. and the first thing I do is teach my girlfriends how to use them. but, they are all unloaded and locked dowm. with the barrels to the floor. it is not the guns that kill. it is the people that don't know how to use them. and you can go on any street and get a 380 or 9mm for a few dollars here on the island or anywhere else. ""are the sellers going to run you down and tell you gota have a lock for that. he dosen't have any at the time. his buddy is out stealing some now"". if you know where to look. and the locks aren't going to do any good if they are not used. and a unloaded gun or a locked is worse than a loaded one. the whole thing comes down to this. hold the parents libel for the childs doing. I mean put them in jail and charge them to the max. or send them to fl. and we will make toast out of them. don't put dampers on the good gun users. put good gun user on the bad users.
this opinion has been stated by a life long gun user who know how to use them and will use them if needed.
and I could say more but, I won't. and yes I have seen a person get shot. and people get killed from guns.

a little spare reading while there looking for the gunlock key. http://www.gunowners.org/links.htm

[This message has been edited by Gene C. (edited 03-17-2000).]

[jeana]

Oh no, here we go again... http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

My uncle was shot clean through the chest by a friend, fifty years ago, when he was 13 years old. My dad was in the army then (wartime) and had brought his gun home... while he was asleep the kids stole his things and started to try them on for size.

Fortunately, my uncle survived to be a grandfather but you can still see the scars on the front and back of his torso!

This story has no point with respect to whether or not guns should have locks, etc. Just showing that kids were messing around where they shouldn't be, even back in the "good old days".


[This message has been edited by jeana (edited 03-17-2000).]

[R[][]FER]

Gene C...
After reading your post, I thought I'd comment on why Canada has some strict laws and some screwy laws.
I think Canada learns from USA problems and then puts in place, our own laws so this doesn't happen to us. (they wish!)
As of now, if we want to buy a 22 rifle, we have to have an FAC (Firearms Aquisition Certificate) to purchase one. You fill out this form and they check you out.
After we get this FAC, we ONLY THEN go and buy the 22 because the stores cannot sell you the gun without it.
That's the easy part for a 22 rifle. Now for the good part.
If we want to buy a pistol, we also need an FAC, NO criminal record, take the 5th. degree and whatever else you have to bend over for. You can only buy it if you are a Trapper, a gun collecter or some other excuse. They only give you 3 choices. If you say you want it for protection, FORGET IT!! When they finally give you the go ahead, you have to bring the pistol down to the police station, in a locked box (briefcase is ok...LOCKED) with a gun lock on it. Then, you leave it with them as they check that it is not stolen or it has been involved in a crime. After a few weeks, they give you a call and say to come and pick it up (bring your briefcase with you) and take it directly to your home.
Now, when you want to use this pistol out at the target range, first you have to go to the police staion and request a permit. You have to let them know where you are taking it, time you are leaving your house and time you are returning to your house. Then if they give you a permit, you can proceed. (but, hey...this is free!!) Now you go home and pick it up. You can not stop at the store for smokes or ? but you must go directly to the range and then return to your resident. But they are very lenient, as they give you a 2 hour window.(in case you have a flat tire..Ha,Ha.)
All our firearms have to be stored in a gun case (steel and bolted to the floor or welded to the rafters. etc.) Do not put your shells in the same cabinet. We can hide them in the toilet tank in a Glad Bag!!
Well, this is how Canada is coping with our gun laws so far. And I won't even get into the registration of all guns etc. That is another story and I don't have enough ink on my keyboard to even start explaining this.
I'm not saying that there should not be gun laws, but if only the people that are sitting behind their desks in their ivory towers with their heads up their you know where, would give their heads a shake...Well, you know the rest.
That is the main reason that rabbit hunting is so good in Canada...Ha,Ha.
Does anyone want to buy a 44 Magnum with original rust including Glad Bag with shells thrown in?..Just give me your FAC please and we'll start from there. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

[jad1097]

I do agree with both of you bdog and gene.
I also have friends who collect guns and some are like you gene they have them everywhere.
However I do feel that including a lock with a gun or buying one with an internal locking device is a good idea.
I do not think the goverment should make it a law or put pressure on manufactures to include them. I do not care for the way our goverment handles gun laws now and do not forsee anything but more laws because of people who are careless.

I also agree with locking up their parents.


As for the average 6 or 7 year old disableing a gun lock. That is not likely a trigger lock in not all that easy to bypass for someone that age and an internal lock would be much more diffucult to disable.

[Mntsnow]

All I can say is S&W is making it easier for themselves to say in business as NOTHING from this will do any good. “Our goal in reaching an accord is to continue to sell to the consumer market,” said Ken Jorgensen, a Smith & Wesson spokesman. “It would have been easy to agree to sell to the law enforcement and military communities only, but that has never been an option.
“The effect of this agreement will mean a change in the way Smith & Wesson does business. It will not sacrifice the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, something we will not do.”

The first thing that is going to happen when that firearm gets home is the trigger lock will get thrown in a drawer and forgotten about!
S&W is doing this to try and limit the laws that the Anti-gun groups are trying to get imposed on them.
I can tell you ANYTHING with a KEY can be opened by a 4 year old! The ONLY thing that will HELP prevent accidents is TRAINING! but even with training ACCIDENTS WILL HAPPEN. (just like you have seatbelts in a car and took drivers education....You can still have a car ACCIDENT This is just a fact of life http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif) but remember this: GUN CONTROL

Try and figure out the logic in this bit of statistical information (or is
there one?)

Number of physicians in the U.S. 700,000
Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year 120,000
Accidental deaths per physician 0.171

Number of gun owners in the U.S. 80,000,000
Number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) 1,500
Accidental deaths per gun owner 0.0000188

Therefore, a doctor is approximately 9,000 times more likely to kill you
than a gun owner.......

I and PRO gun groups ALL SUPPORT firearm training and usage instruction which would not infringe on my consitutional right to keep and bear arms. One of the great benifits of having a "armed public" is lower crime rates. (I for one can not afford to have a "Armed Guard" with myself or my family 24 hours a day) It has been studied that area's that have a larger population of LEGALLY owned firearms have a LOWER crime rate! As the criminal will go to an area where their chances of being the one with the ADVANTAGE is greater. (They dont want to get shot! but will shoot YOU to get in your house ect ect).

Well I have been on my soapbox long enough... Like the bumper sticker on my blazer says.....Insured by S&W. and I love the bumper sticker that says... They can have my guns when they PRY it out of my dead fingers!

Mntsnow

[This message has been edited by Mntsnow (edited 03-17-2000).]

[narayan]

To own a gun is a right given to us by a power higher than the federal gevernment. The 2nd Amendment just keeps the gov't from taking this right away. The 6-year old who shot the other 6-year old would never had the chance to get that gun if the laws that are in place would have been enforced. The gun was in a freakin' crack-house. Oh yeah, the crackheads are gonna use gun locks when they need to store the guns. I can see where the Clinton Admin would think that crackheads are responsible about guns. It is incrementalism for the goal of repealing the 2nd Amendment. The right to own a gun is given to us by a higher power than the government. (hard to believe for some of you that there is a higher power than the government) The 2nd Amendment only prohibits the Gov from taking this right away.

"This year will go down in history. For the first time a civilized nation has full gun
registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow
our lead into the future" --Adolf Hitler, Berlin Daily, April 15, 1935

"Waiting periods are only a step. Registration is only a step. The prohibition of private
firearms is the goal."~Janet Reno

Sorry to jump in like this, but...

"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans ..." ~Bill
Clinton (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A)

[narayan]

And another thing... If you anti-gun people think this does not affect you, you are wrong. Personal freedom is something that we should all be concerned about. If some freedoms do not appeal to you, do not try to take them away from the rest of us.


IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
January 27, 1993
Mr. Owens of New York introduced the following joint resolution; which was referred to
the Committee on the Judiciary

JOINT RESOLUTION
Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States repealing the Second
Amendment to the Constitution. Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of
the United States of America in Congress assembled (two-thirds of each House concurring
therein), That the following article is proposed as an amendment to the Constitution of the
United States, which shall be valid for all intents and purposes as part of the Constitution
when ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States within seven years
after the date of its submission for ratification:

ARTICLE
The second article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is repealed.

This was actually voted on! Do you believe it? How close are we to losing our freedom? Just because some people were not raised properly by their parents, some think that everyone else must pay the price of freedom. NOT ME!

"They can have my guns when they PRY it out of my dead fingers!" AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




[This message has been edited by narayan (edited 03-17-2000).]

[narayan]

And if that shotgun was not in reach of those children... Children have no business with firearms, so what is the problem? Because a kid gets a gun, do you make the guns safer? NO, guns are not meant to be safe. You do not allow kids to get their little hands on them. COMMON SENSE

[Mntsnow]

Who can't own a gun

Shootings in the workplace. Threats at school. Like it or not, most Americans have the right to carry firearms. Here's a look at those who have lost that right:
• Persons under indictment for, or convicted of, any crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year
• Fugitives from justice
• Persons who are unlawful users of, or addicted to, any controlled substance
• Persons who have been declared by a court as mental defectives or have been committed to a mental institution
• Illegal aliens, or aliens who were admitted to the United States under a non-immigrant visa
• Persons who have been dishonorably discharged from the Armed Forces
• Persons who have renounced their United States citizenship
• Persons subject to certain types of restraining orders
• Persons who have been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence



Just flip'n enforce the LAWS already on the books! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif

Mntsnow

[narayan]

The government does not enforce the law so that they may say that the current laws do not work. This way they can say "Well, we tried this and we tried that, but the fact of the matter is that the American people can not be trusted with firearms, so we MUST come up with new legislation to regulate this and that to make sure that nobody who has no business with guns has the ability to get guns.....BLAH BLAH BLAH It is all a bunch of BS. Those of you who think that gun laws are not strict enough need to realize that in America we are free to make choices for ourselves, unlike every other place on this earth. The freedom we have here is being abused and we know why. It is not guns, it is the failure to enforce existing laws. The day when the Gov takes our guns away is not too far into the future. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif

...And so a lot of people say there's too much personal freedom. When personal freedom is being abused, you have to move to limit it...- President Bill Clinton on MTV's ``Enough is Enough", 3-22-94

[narayan]

Jeana, you understand the problem. You are one who does not like guns, but you understand that guns are not at the root of the problem we have in America. Thank you.

[jad1097]

So a four year old can pick a lock!? I would like to see that. They need the key first! I bet a four year old can put a bullet into a unloaded/unlocked weapon just laying around a house.

I did not mean to start this, I just thought it was about time something like this is done. I really don't care why or how but it is a **** good idea to include locks with guns!

I am in no way anti-gun. I beleive all of us do have the right to own a weapon. Even convited felons if it was only one incedent and five years after they are released!


BTW~
"Persons under indictment for, or convicted of, any crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year"
May be so on the books but that same person can go to a store and buy a shotgun and rifle legaly. I know this from personal experiance.
Also if that was true people with mutiple DUI's would not be able to buy one or for that matter most people convited misdermeanors.



[This message has been edited by jad1097 (edited 03-18-2000).]

[Mntsnow]

NOT in UTAH! We have a Instant background check that is in place and WORKING! It costs buyers 5 bucks to have the background check ran (unless your like me who have a permit that exempts us from the 5 buck cost but they STILL run the check!) The 5 bucks goes to pay for having the databases kept upto date and the additional computer manpower to do it.

I have no problem with this type of "gun safety" as it IS preventing people that have the "bad reps" from getting firearms and NOT taking away the right of LAW abiding people to obtain firearms.

Jad,
READ what I stated http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif I can tell you ANYTHING with a KEY can be opened by a 4 year old! The ONLY thing that will HELP prevent accidents is TRAINING! I said WITH A KEY a 4 year old can open a lock! Most people will end up putting that KEY next to wherever they keep the gun...Thus the ANSWER is NOT trigger locks or "internal safetys" it is EDUCATION! I was raise with guns in the home and had access to them from the time I could hold them....AFTER I had been shown PROPER gun control and instuction on how they work and what they can do. I already have started the training of my 3.5 year old boy on proper gun safety (not that I'm saying he will have one in HIS room...Get real http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif) and have trained my 10 year old daughter and wife to the point that I would not be a bit afraid of having them handle ANY of my firearms. My daughter has be shown what they can do and she knows to leave a firearm alone when an ADULT is not present and to leave immediately if she is at a friends home where firearms are out in the open without the ADULT present.

Again as stated by many others... The only GUN CONTROL needed is COMMON SENSE!

Mntsnow

[OuTpaTienT]

Ok, I can kinda see an arguement for having the locks, but still, people gotta USE them for them to work. I suspect anyone who has a gun for protection will not keep it locked...seemed kinda stupid.

"Ok there Mr. Intruder (rapist, murderer, thug, whatever), you just hold still for a second. When I find my key to this gun...well then you're gonna be in big trouble Mr."

The lock issue should still be hashed out by the voting public, and if that's what everyone wants, then so be it. I'll tell ya what I DO NOT LIKE ONE LITTLE BIT however...I do not like the fact that the government uses blackmail as a tactic to get American companies to do what they want them to. If we vote bills into laws (however stupid some of them may be) at least that's the right way to do things. But to have the government say "do what we want or we're gonna slap you with a billion dollar lawsuit" is not only utter BS, but is a very very scary indicator of where our government is heading.

[DaveLewis]

Some scary things are going on here.

First off there's the mindset that says "Please pass laws so that bad things won't happen." You can search the wire services and find all sorts of "bad things" that happen every day. Some bad things are the result of crime, some are the results of somebody's negligence, and some are just plain old bad luck. Since we constantly publicize all of the bad things that can and do occur and we have totally removed the concept of individual responsibility from our society, it follows that the only thing that we can do is blame the instruments. This mindset says "if you own firearms BAD THINGS will happen to you." By extension "if you don't own firearms BAD THINGS will NOT happen to you." It is obvious that this has become a moral issue and gun owners have been demonized by a media that feeds on the sensational reports of bad things.

Second, we've got to remember that no law, however well intentioned, will make irresponsible people become responsible. Nor will any law make bad guys automatically start to obey the law. We all know that drunk driving is against the law, and the fatalities caused by drunks far exceed by many orders of magnitude the fatalities caused by firearms. Yet I guarantee you that even as you read this some idiot will have "a couple of beers" which actually means a couple of 12 packs, get in his car, and go off and kill himself and a busload of kids on their way to church. If the idiots would only kill themselves it wouldn't be so bad but its sad when they take innocent people with them. DWI is against the law, in at least some of the cases the penalties are severe and certainly in most circles there is a major social stigma attached to such irresponsible behavior. Yet all of those factors don't stop idiots from doing the bad things that they do.

In the same mindset you can pass a law requiring trigger locks, but the idiots will never use them. Then when some idiot leaves his firearm where some junior idiot can get to it, the discussion will start once again on stopping bad things from happening. The argument would follow "Since the idiots of this world can't be trusted to act in a responsible manner, and since there are so many of them, we'll just have to shut this down entirely."

I'm also sure that all of the criminals are going to rush right out and buy and use their trigger locks. When 19 year old Crip "A" shoots 18 year old Blood "B" over a bad dope deal the anti gun people call it "juvenile violence" and say that children - i.e. anybody under 21 - were injured as a result of a "tragic accident". I'm not sure what I'd call such an incident (civic betterment sort of comes to mind) but it certainly wasn't an accident and I guarantee that a trigger lock wouldn't have stopped it.

I could waste lots more bandwidth on this subject. I'm aware of the other side that says "well if we can save one life ...." but we could save lots more lives (40,000+ per year)by making everybody walk - if saving lives were really the goal.

Folks, just think a little in November.

[Wiz]

Gun locks aren't all good. What about when a burglar is in your house about to slit kill your family? What are you gonna say "excuse me, i have to get the keey to my gun lock, hoold on one second..."

I dont think so for some reason. Gunlocks actually stop guns from doing what they do, protecting you.

[Toadman]

Let's see, with literally hundreds of millions of "lock-less" firearms around and in the hands of criminals and populace alike, what is the gov'ts desired effect with this boondoggle? Average Joe Public with wife/kids/mortgage gets a lock with his registration and waiting period. Hoodlums just swap existing guns for drugs. Looks like somebody closed the barn door after the horse has already left.

[brandon184]

jad.. You seem to think today's kids are stupid. (Some are.. Actually).. If you think its virtually impossible for a 6 or 7 year old to conceieve a way to unlock that gun, whether they do it, or they get someone else to do it.. well.. its possible.

They have the potential to find a way to get the gun unlocked, and their fingers around that trigger, ready to be pulled.

[Billd]

My opinion.The last thing people need is more government controlling our lives.What about the people who fail to put the child locks on their cabinets and their kids get into some poison?I don't know but I would guess there are far more children poisoned every year than shot.Hey if we really want to save lives lets make people wear crash helmets in their cars,this could really save some lives.
My point?The more we let the government control things the more they will want to control and then where does it stop? We don't need to limit peoples freedoms but deal with those who can't handle them.The government can screw up anything,and the less that they're in my house the better I like it.
Billd

[Apostle 83]

Well, I just joined the NRA, as a junior member. I guess I decided talk is cheap, time to put my money (though very little) where my mouth is.

[Mntsnow]

Congrats Apostle! The rewards of membership are many http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif I have life memberships in N.R.A. (http://www.nra.org/), N.A.H.C (http://www.cuc.com/ctg/cgi-bin/NAHC/home) (North American Hunting Club) and Life membership in the Utah Hunting Coalition.

Mntsnow
ps. It's never to late or can you be too young to standup and be counted for something you belive in. (whichever "side" your on)

[jeana]

Thanks, narayan. Since my life does not feature guns in any major way (except for worrying that other people who have them will use them to hurt me and my loved ones) I'm not going to force my opinions down someone else's throat. I understand that if you love guns and know how to use them, this all can be upsetting: it's endangering your way of life!

We all know that stupid or criminal people are the real problem, but what can we do to prevent _them_ from getting guns or to prevent them from using guns to hurt others? We all know that education and love are our best ways to reduce the numbers of stupid/bad people, but since evil fools will always be with us what can we do? That's why people want better background checks/licensing, reduction of the numbers and types of guns available, and built-in devices on guns to prevent hasty use. However, these methods are not foolproof because many accidents/crimes are committed by people with clean records, and as has been pointed out, mechanical safety devices are more likely to be disabled by criminals.

The question is: do these measures do what we want them to do, and how can we limit the impact on responsible gunowners? Like I've said before, gunowners should take an active hand in finding and supporting measures that will decrease gun misuse, instead of fighting all regulation. Otherwise, more and more nonowners will begin to support complete bans on firearms.

Haven't read all these messages, but here's an alternative for people concerned about their own safety but unwilling to join in the arms race: I carry a cell phone around with emergency numbers on autodial for safety. Not the immediate oomph of a gun, but could probably call in a bunch of policemen _with_ guns.

Mntsnow!!!! Don't mean to get on your case again (last time didn't mean to twist your stats, just wanted to point out that they don't make you sound good) but to be fair your comparison of doctors/guns might as well compare the number of Americans with doctors to the number of Americans with guns.
Who knows, the stats may still show that guns are safer than doctors but do it right! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

Supporting better training and education _is_ a good move and I hope it proves effective.

[This message has been edited by jeana (edited 03-19-2000).]

[narayan]

I do not agree that any constitutional issue should not be up to the voting public. The majority of people in America do not understand why the 2nd amendment, or any of the items in the Bill of Rights, Constitution, or the Amendments are in place, or why they are more difficult to change. We vote for representatives to take care of constitutional issues for us. We elect the officials that represent what we believe in, and we hope that they will interpret and uphold the letter of the law. We cannot trust the public to make decisions like that. The majority of the public is so easily influenced by politicians and the media that they will vote on issues in the way that they are presented to them. To let the public vote on constitutional issues would not be in the best interest of the country.

[oblivion]

Oh yea great,now irresponsible gun owners get a free lock included with the gun,that they will just put in some corner where it will never get used anyways....because they are irresponsible in the first place,and would not have bought one,or even used one in the first place...


A tiny little lock included with a gun does not help one bit............it takes responsibility,and a responseable person takes good care of his guns in the first place.......its not like including this little lock is gonna make them responsible........duh!!!!!!!!!!!


I was gonna stay outta this one,but I couldnt help myself.

[Mntsnow]

Again Jeana http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif(lol) all the stat is showing is that there is FEWER doctors in the usa accidently killing MORE people compaired to the amount that are accidently killed by gun owners. Seems pretty clear cut to me http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif. I'm sorry that I don't understand what your trying to say http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif

I do and will continue wholeheartly support "reasonable" firearm legislation. I help staff the "hunter education" program (In Utah every one (except thoses that were "grandfather claused)that wants to be able to LEGALLY hunt has to PASS the training course that includes gun safety instruction as well as actual hands on testing) BTW Utah has actually seen a decline personal crime. (including a slight drop in "Home invasion crimes) I and many police agencys feel this is due in part to the fact that Utah made it easier (for a law-abiding citizen) to apply for a "carry permit" (We have to go thru a training course and VERY intense full blown background check).

Mntsnow

[smurfin]

I don't know how to feel about this topic. I despise guns. Do not think less of me for this attitude. If you knew what I knew, had the experiences in life I have had you would most likely feel the same. And do not think for one moment that because of my dislike for them that I do not know how to use them. The military made me extremely efficient with them. Very, Very efficient. I have in my past used them to such a great extent that I could load and fire any man portable weapons system in existance with great accuracy. But after a while you grow weary of such a life and you must move on and become a responsible cog in the machine. You must care for your family. You must be respectable. In my experience the so called "gun nuts" who are the most vocal have never killed anyone, they are used to paper targets. Those that have and are still gun nuts are generally psychotic. Those that have done any traffic with death know one feeling for weapons. Respect. There is no love, no gratitude and certainly to happiness at their existance. It is a necessity, not a gift to mankind. It is necessary because at the most basic level we are mad, we are animals and too territorial to live in peaceful coexistance with each other. The rage that sits there under the surface must not be given over to. It must be managed.

That being said, I think that there are already too many weapons in circulation to do anything law wise to prevent criminals from obtaining them. I think I read one time that there are more weapons than people in america. But these laws might prevent a childs death. I hold childrens lives to be sacred having lost a son. I hold family sacred, so I can not say..Do not allow weapons! Because you cannot control criminals. I cannot say locks will work, because you do need access to a weapon quickly if your house is being invaded. I think responsible and common sense reasoning would be the best protection of our young. But then reality sets in and I KNOW that most people do not think reasonably or rationally. Maybe we are just doomed. My children will learn weapons responsibly, they will know how to kill when necessary as my wife has learned. But as a whole we abhor violence and are peaceful people. You have to learn to curb the instinct for killing, but you cannot ignore the danger that is ever present in our very neighborhoods.

[narayan]

smurfin, very well put. I have not killed anyone and if I ever do, it would be an event that would be a part of me forever that I do not want. Such an event would haunt me until I die. I have the confidence, however, that I would make the right decision if faced with that choice. Here are some stats that I got in the Email today:

The study was conducted from 1993-1995 by the U.S. Department of Justice's Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention.
In an attempt to determine the relationship between "problem behaviors" like drug use, teen pregnancy, and crime, child psychologists tracked 4,000 boys and girls aged 6 to 15 in Denver, Pittsburgh, and Rochester, NY.

According to the study:

* Children who get guns from their parents don't commit gun crimes (0%), while children who get illegal guns are very likely to do so
(21%).

* Children who get guns from parents are less likely to commit any kind of street crime (14%) than children who have no gun in the house
(24%)
-- and are dramatically less likely to do so than children who acquire an illegal gun (74%).

* Children who get guns from parents are less likely to use drugs (13%)
than children who get illegal guns (41%).

It is stats like these (or ignoring stats like these) that lead me to believe the goal of the government is not to promote safety, but rather to gather "ammo" to use in their crusade to outlaw guns. We never see stuff like this presented when they want to make more laws. .

[Mntsnow]

Narayan, Yes it is amazing that the TV network reports and the legislature very rarely will publize stats such as yours and others that are "pro-gun" in supporting nature. I truely wish that the TV Networks would ACCURATELY show BOTH sides of the issues. (not just on the gun issue either!) and then let people make up their own minds.

Smurfin, I don't think anyless of you for your attitude (as I and my others fought and died for your's and my right to have free speach and the right to keep and bear arms along with everything else).

I do to this day think of when I was in the service and trained to kill, and YES it will live in my memory and heart forever! I hope I will never have to do it again in a "civilian" capacity, But I have a very strong and determined resolve to PROTECT my family and myself from others that choose to inflict harm to those that I love and care about thus I will protect them to the best of my ablity.

I would "classify" myself as a "pro-gun" supporter but not a "gun-NUT" as you put it. I do take a very strong exception to your statement for how you "classify" people. I for one HAVE dealt with "death" in more shapes and sizes than the "average" citizen and I am not psychotic in any way!

I feel that those that choose not to have firearms dont need to be forced to own a gun and those that choose to own a gun (under legal rights) have the right not to be forced to give up their right.

I'm glad you have your views and have expressed them. and I hope that you can see where I am coming from and appricate my feelings on the matter as well http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

To this I end...I do wish for peace on earth and good will toward men.

Mntsnow

[smurfin]

MtnSnow..I love you man. Wouldn't think you were a nut though. You know the people I am referring to. Have killed, like it, can't seem to re socialize. Kill kids in the playground...You know, that kind of ****. If you are one of those, think peaceful thoughts. I got no quarrel but I give no quarter. I learned a lot in the military, discipline, honor, integrity( how to use a barrett .50 to blow a man in half from the better part of a 2000m...you know useful stuff). Etc. I think that it helps, specifically morally ambiguous persons such as myself. I would probably have turned out a scum bag if not for the military. But you will never see training to love thy firearm outside of basic. Respect is what is taught. When you go through the cycles I did, then there is a little more emphasis put on weaponry, but still you are not taught they are good, only necessary. I find very few freaks that are ex military, you rarely see them. But when you do they are the ones who do real serious damage. The military in certain instances(dependant on your designation)teaches one to kill on almost a genocidal level. There are some, don't get me wrong, I served with a couple. To be honest, if criminals ever found out what you could learn they would join. Personally, I know how to rob armored cars, assasination, smuggling, you name it. It goes under the title "counter government tactics"(not to be used on your own of course, but rather funding guerilla actions). But the people who enjoy it I do consider messed up pretty bad. Didn't mean to step on your toes amigo, I was not referring to your commentary actually. Take it for what it's worth.
Bill

[Mntsnow]

Thanks Bill http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif Love ya too man!

Yes there is unfortuantly some "crazys" out among us and I hope that we can find a way to keep them from getting ahold of ANYTHING (including themselves) that they can use to harm the innocent public.

Btw I was a 31V and 11B in the service and was a "dope on a rope" for a quite some time until I was HONORABLY discharged from the service. The BEST part(re: most fun) was standing on the skid of a huey skimming along at 60+ knots at treetop level waiting to drop the ropes for an insertion.

Mntsnow

[Andy_L]

Interesting, since the last S&W I bought (2 yrs ago) before I came overseas had a trigger lock included and came in a lockable case, and Ruger handguns have been sold in a case with lock for quite some time. My trigger lock sits right next to the pistol in the case, which is unlocked, in a gun cabinet which is locked. Of course, they are also 3000 miles away!

[smurfin]

Started out as a dragon man, but i had an affinity for long distance rifle work, so well you know...They waste nothing. Never did get to blow up a tank! Was really looking forward to it. Anyway. Peace.Bill

[tonym]

Way to go Mntsnow!!


I 100% agree. It comes down to this for me:
If I purchase a handgun for personal protection and per chance an armed intruder enters my home and kills either myself or my wife (or both of us) due to the fact that I couldn't defend myself properly as I couldn't activate my gun lock in the dark, then there is definitely something wrong with that picture of "gun control".

Yup. Kids shouldn't have guns. Nor should criminals. Accountability, pure and simple is the solution to the problem. Give, or facilitate the use of, a gun by a minor. Bye-bye. Use a gun in the commission of a crime. Bye-bye. Kill someone with a gun FOR WHATEVER REASON. ZZZZZap! harsh. Very definitely yes. Effective. I don't know, but we've tried everthing else to failure and beyond.

No consequence means no fear of the law, particularly for those humans with true animal tendencies (sociopaths and the like).

Either society and the politicians (notice I didn't say public servants) they elect don't have the will or the collective stomach to do the proper thing. Do the crime, suffer the punishment. it's not inhuman or barbarous for the collective society to protect itself from a very real threat.

Today, we don't need guns to protect ourselves from the government or a government. We do, unfortunately, need them to protect ourselves from each other!

But, guns won't be missed (even by the most virulent anti-gun members of our society) until the day an opressive regieme or junta takes control here and our liberties are snuffed out one-by-one. Couldn't happen here, could it???


Tony

P.S. I don't own a single gun. But that shouldn't abridge my ability as a law-abiding citizen to obtain as many as I can afford and use them in a law-abiding manner.