What are we doing? again a little off topic...

[plucky duck]

Dave, we're living in very strange and interesting times indeed.

Just yesterday, a 9-months pregnant women standing @ the sidewalk got struck by the vehicle whose driver was drunk. The vehicle was making a left turn at the intersection and an oncoming transit bus struck it, thus the vehicle went flyin' into the sidewalk and hit this lady.

Sad part was because the judge can't confidently determine whether it was the vehicle or the bus' fault, the drunk driver only got 2 years probation and licence suspended. What the hell was that judge thinkin'???

The baby's life is saved but he/she's gonna be mentally disabled for the rest of her life.

An appeal is coming up, lets hope it'll get that guy's ***** in jail for life.

Too bad no matter how the guy's tried the mother will never come back.

Just so sad....

These people just don't get it do they?
If you drink DONT DRIVE!!! Its very simple.
How stupid can you get??? Aargh!!!

Plucky

[PCnerd]

I really love animals and hate people who do bad things to them. Tell you a story, in July of '98 we went to my father's coworker's farm. When we came there, we found out that one of his neighbors was starving his two kittens. He wanted to get rid of them, but did not want to kill them. By the time we got there, they were really weak, they could not even move, remember this is happening on a huge farm with cows on it!!! We took one kitten, it was a female. Somehow we raised her from the dead, and in a few month she brought 4 orange and 1 black kitten. This happed on Sunday. Later in the evening, she ran outside... When my brother woke up he found her lying on the sidewalk, she was dead. Some idiot ran her over on a side walk!!! We left with 1 day old kittens. We could not raise them all, 2 of them died and we left with 3 orange ones. Later, we gave one of the kittens away. One day one of our cats ran away and came home later in the week, she could bearly walk, had a hole in her back and her neck. We did not sleep a few night and brought her back to life (literaly). Another night the other cat ran away and we haven't seen him since. Now we only have one poor kitty who can bearly walk and doesn't pur, because his throat hurts. He is afraid of any noise, street...

Well, I think you understand how I feel about animals. To me(us) they are like our family members. I think that punishment for animals and humans should be almost the same!!!!

Note: I am sorry for my long post, but thanks for reading. If you need any clarification, than leave a message or send me an e-mail. I've got 4 minutes of work left so I am in a hurry http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[plucky duck]

yeah, poor little doggy.

These people are insane I tell ya.

What the hell, do they have somethin' against animals or what? If so, don't own one. Very simple.

I remember this one time on the news were a dog was tied to the back of a truck via a rope and was dragged a mile long thru rubble road before anybody noticed and actually did somethin'. The dog's body and face and skin was all torn up and everythin', luckily the dog survived and the owner had to do some major jail time.

What is society coming to these days???
These sorts of things shouldn't be happening.

Plucky

[BBA]

What would I do if I came across someone hurting a dog or cat...

It would not be pretty.

[Wiz]

As of yesterday morning, this woman received somewhere in the vicinity of 70 grand in donations. 70000 dollars!!!! C'mon, i feel bad for the lady, and the dog, but i am just digusted that people refuse to give to those who really need money. For instance, our countries homeless...

[Chef Mark]

Wiz, I somewhat agree with you, but the people making the donations are probably also the same ones that are supporting good causes around the world.

About the human rights v. animal rights issue: I tend to lean toward stiffer penalties on the people who abuse animals because of the lack of advocates and the inability of the animals to make use of the few remedies that are in place to protect them. People tend to notice when kids or adults have the appearance of being abused and will try to help.

Animals on the other hand are approached warily (and rightly so) if they appear to be hurt or wild. They obviously can't speak up on their own behalf and let someone know that their present physical condition is the result of neglect or abuse.

Our family rescued a wonderful beagle from the ASPCA that was around 5 years old who had been roaming for at least 6 months. They told us that when she was picked up she was emaciated, had just had puppies and weighed less than 75% of what she should have. Just so happens that someone who lived next door to the family came in looking for a dog and recognized the dog and called her by name which the of course the dog recognized. When the family was notified that their dog had been found they denied it and said their dog was dead.

Why not just take the dog to the ASPCA rather then do what this family did? Who knows, but this is one reason that I believe animals need protection from us!

Chef

[daveleau]

Oh I agree that hurting animals is a horrible thing. I would love to get my hands on the ones who did stuff like that. I have a cat myself and protect her with all that I can. The jerk tht had her before abused her but now she is doing great and is suprisingly well adjusted. I am just saying that many put more of a price on animal life than humans.

For example:
A guy here got 5 yrs in jail for killing his dog. I was all for it! Throw away the key!

A month later, a guy was caught molesting children (convicted on 12 counts) and he got 2 yrs of probation and had to go to counseling.

Same judge. One guy kills an animal and another guy scars 12 children for life. Which should be punished more severely.

As a side note, this IS South Carolina we are talking about int his example. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif
Dave

[Missing the point]

If I ever got my hands on a child molester or animal killer....


buy, you better have some hovels, to scrape them off the pavement, because I would beat them INTO the ground

[daveleau]

I am beginning to see your points PCNerd and Chef Mark.
Dave

[Ed_S]

The disturbing part is that when this guy is caught, he'll probably be punished more severly than he would have been had he killed the woman instead.

This happened 2/11. Over 3 weeks ago. How many human killings have happened and recieved little or no attention in that time?

[Axel]

One of the themes in one of Dean Koontz's books has to do with environmental law offenders getting harsher penalties than some other violent crimes.....

The system is skewed back and forth by public opinion which is held by the media and what they choose to display.....

Thing is - in road rage attacks, all semblance of civilization and intellectual evolution go right out the window......

We have become the tightly packed rats we used to study in the lab and it's getting worse.....

In one of David Brin's 'uplift' novels, this concept is introduced as an attack of "reduced sapience" - an interesting euphamism for "Crazy"......

I've experienced a great desire to find a quick means of getting rid of all the traffic in front of me..... I've even thought about starting a class-action suit against the company owning a cement truck which flipped and caused about 400 people to sit in a 3 hour traffic jam one day, but the urge passed as I have no time to do so.....

too many people..... BTW - I support zero population growth and have little love for the pro-lifers who aren't avidly adopting anyone orphaned or otherwise rejected by the world..... Cruel & unusual punishment is an unloved and uncared for child. Adding more obviously isn't working out.

[This message has been edited by Axel (edited 03-08-2000).]

[JeffD78]

If anyone ever hurt somebody I loved, be it my dog, cat, bird, fish, (jeeze, got my own little zoo!) or my wife (not to be confused with the zoo). I'd, I'd, I'd.... Well, let's just suffice it to say I'd go to jail for a very long time, but only if they found the body(s). Nobody places any value on anything but what's currently popular or will make them look good. Oh yeah, we've gotta watch out for our environment, we're killing our planet. Let's make punishment for crimes against the environment more harsh than if you murdered a fellow human being!!! After all you can always have more people.... It makes me SICK!!! Sometimes I think we'd all be a LOT better off if we'd never come down out of the trees...

On a lighter note:
Axel, I just got done reading both of Brin's Uplift Trilogies last week. Here's an idea: Maybe someone should come along and "adopt" us.

***puts the soap box away***
Later...

[Axel]

Jeff - what was that saying from hitchhiker's guide - leaving the water was a bad idea as well...... To live a day as a dolphin.... if it just weren't for the tuna nets.....

[Paul V]

What I found disturbing was the fact that (and I can't find this story anymore, I think it was on apbnews.com or some site like that) some man, over 90 years old, was convicted for child molestation. He's been in and out of prison since the 1920s for this, I believe this is something like his 6th-8th prison sentence being given him for child molestation. Why on earth do they EVER let people like this out? Like after his FIFTH conviction and his FIFTH prison sentence they don't know what he's gonna do if he gets out??

I favor my own idea -- a "two strike law". If you commit a violent crime (and I'd count molestation as a violent crime), serve time, and you are ever convicted of the same or similar crime again, you should get life in prison with no possibility for parole, no options for release unless new evidence proves you're innocent, or you die. You get one chance to reform, if you blow it, you never get out into normal society again.

There should never BE a case like this in which a guy is sent to prison for a sixth time for repeating the same crime. It's obvious that the guy is a danger to society, it's obvious to anyone with more than one brain cell that if this guy goes on the streets he's gonna commit another crime. IMO there is no excuse for releasing him. Think of how many peoples' lives would be better if people like this man, who are obviously predators and WILL not change, had been kept in prison.

I say, you get one chance to do right starting when you're born. If you screw up, you do your time and are given one more chance. If you screw up again then, reform or no, regardless of whether you find God or Allah or have become a "much better person", you sit in prison, until you are dead. Harsh? Perhaps. But I see no reason to be lenient to people who prey on others.

The purpose of our prison systems is not just to punish or reform, but also serves the greater cause of protecting our society. I think it is very irresponsible and immoral to release people who are known repeat offenders into society. Just as if you released an animal who had a history of harming humans into a crowd, you are committing an irresponsible and immoral act, you are equally immoral and irresponsible for releasing a more human predator.

Just yesterday a person was stabbed in the early evening not 3/4 of a mile from my dorm, for $50 and a discman. I bet when they catch the guy, mark my words, this guy will probably have a history of violent crimes. Why, then, is he on the streets? Why does an innocent college student my age have to go through getting robbed, stabbed, and have the surgeries necessary to repair the damage, to allow violent offenders to have as many chances as they want? This person will probably have to withdraw from college for the semester because he'll be missing weeks of midterms and classes. It sounds like he was hurt pretty bad. Had he not been found quickly he may have bled to death. All this happening on a path I routinely walk on an almost daily basis. Why do people like me have to suffer to keep giving violent attackers more chances to "reform"? That could easily have been me in an operating room last night having emergency surgery.

I think human rights are very important, but allowing people who have shown a history of violence to return to the streets isn't upholding their human rights, it's infringing upon my and everyone else's human right to safety. If you are a repeat offender, you do not deserve freedom. I'm not in favor of harming, torturing, etc. these people -- such cruelty is uncalled for. I'm simply in favor of never allowing them to be free again.

Sorry this rant is long...

[Daizie]

PaulV, I totally see what you are saying. What I think is really stupid is that rapists and burglars are set free to ensure room for the guy/girl that is caught with a little bit of pot. Who do think is better off in jail?

The death penalty should be enforced if a person was to ecscape after being prisoned for the second time, or if they commited violent crimes at leat two more times before being caught.

As far as human vs. animal rights, I feel strongly about both. Animal abusers and rapists, murderers, etc., I think, should be taken from society by lethal injection.

It is very important that people realize our role as keepers of the earth and treat it with respect. I stress conservation, not preservation. The same goes for animals. Pets are helpless victims of our society when they are abused. I don't think there is any such thing as a bad dog/cat, there are just bad people. All pets want is your love and time, not materialistic things like we do.
I have two cats, and my parents/brother have two dogs and a couple cats. We also have two horses, which are completely useless, fat, and lazy. I love them all and could spend all day playing with every one of them. If anyone wanted to harm or frighten any of them, I would have to open a can of WHOOP A--.

[daveleau]

Ok, I am sure you guys are familiar with the incident where the road-rage driver threw the dog into oncoming traffic, killing it and then speeding away. If not, here:

http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/03/08/road.rage.dog/index.html
http://interstice.com/leo/

In our news in my state, offenders against animals regularly get larger sentences than repeated drug offenders, rapists and murderers. For example, a man was sentenced to 2yrs of rehab in a MI institution for molesting 12 young boys instead of getting the recommended 20yrs in prison. What are your thoughts on animal rights v/s human rights and how they compare?
Dave

[U-96]

talking of screwed-up justice, there is a case in the UK where two workers in a homeless hostel refused to disclose to police the names of people they suspected of dealing drugs, stating that their position was one of trust.
This couple are now serving 3-5 years in prison, more than the average drug dealer gets....

U-96

[welsh wizard]

U 96 UK justice has been screwed up for years, some b*****d brakes into your house and is rapeing your wife and all you allowed to do is ask him to refrain from doing it, if you hit him with a cricket bat, he then get compo from you for any injury you do to him, and the UK police charge you with GBH, if you shoot him, depending on if you kill him they either charge you with attempted murder or murder, long gone the old statement an English mans home is his castle. ( just a thought you might have a job shooting him, these days because of the gun controls, so if you had a gun they would also charge with illegal possesion of a firearm http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif )
It's time the people were given some rights back.
WW


[This message has been edited by welsh wizard (edited 03-09-2000).]

[Roraycr]

I have learned that a person who would deliberately hurt an animal for no reason except meanness, wouldn't hesitate to hurt a human for the same reason. Also, the way a man treats his mother is exactly the way he will treat his wife.

[smurfin]

Welsh, if you catch some guy raping your wife, kill him. Then don't call the police, email me. There are many, many ways of disposing of a human body.;-) Just kidding. OR AM I? p.s. Got a welder, and a 50 gallon steel drum lying around. Cut 3inch holes in a few places, weld the body inside, drop it off a bridge(don't get caught,duh) fish will take care of most of the problem, and unlike plastic bags(can you believe anyone is that stupid) gas will not cause the corpus delecti to rise to the surface because holes will also allow the gases to escape. Where I come from we learn how to protect our familys with extreme prejudice. You do not want to break into my house. You will die. I may be a happy kind of guy, but there are limits to everyone's civility. Nuff said. Bill

[Underclocked]

Most everyone says similar things in all the posts I read, in all the conversations I have with others, and in most of the opinions I read in the news media. Given that, what/who are these idiots that create such a BS situation in our legal system? Not justice system as we do not have one any longer.
FUBAR!!!
Maybe the old colony of Massachusetts was right about lawyers. If memory serves, they banned barristers and other undesireables.

[tonym]

Dave,

For some folks their pets ARE their kids! That's the situation for me and my wife. Childless for 18 years, but we've always had "kids", our dogs. Right now we have three and except for the occasional pooping on the floor, they act like kids. No, they're not human and not recognized or accorded human rights by society. But in our house and in our "space", they are! But they can't fend for themselves -- domesticated as they are they need my (our) "custodianship".

The question here isn't the species of the victim, it's the emotion that that accompanies the loss. I'm physically a big guy, but I've wept like a baby at the loss of a beloved pet. It's easy to throw this emotionalism off if you've never been attached or never had a pet. But you can't deny that it exists. Just as "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", the loss is in the heart of the affected.

As for the moron who did this awful thing to "Leo the dog", a human who would prey on a harmless creature is a sociopath -- his/her set of life-rules are skewed. I for one wouldn't trust this individual near my wife and extended family. Or your kids! This person shows the unpredictability in a stressful situation that you would expect from an animal. Reaction, not logic or thought.

In the end, I think a society IS judged by the way it treats even the lesser creatures because we are at the top of the food- and thought-chain here on the planet. Actions like those that happened in the Leo case defy and lessen our moral compact with one-another, and I for one think we are all diminished by this occurrence.

Tony
Asta, Angus and Daisy's "dad"

[smurfin]

Forgot to mention..Take a bat and break out all of the teeth. If you shot the perp, and cannot locate the slug for easy removal, you MUST ALSO DESTROY THE WEAPON, remove the ammunition, take a welder(torch) and totally destroy the weapon. If you did the job in the states where guns are legal, try to use a semi automatic, that way you can replace the barrell(you don't want them finding the body and slug only to trace it to your barrell. If you cannot replace the barrel destroy it, wait two days and report it stolen(the perp probably even provided you with the b&e evidence. I cannot remember the appropriate method of blood stain removal, but I think it is ammonia, you can probably find out somewhere. Remember to pick up your empties(suprised how many forget) and dump all of the type of ammo you used, buy a new brand and load up. Peace

[chas3rd]

Just a note my wife saw that happen said the guy was toasted that is all

[bdog]

Smurfin, you are starting to scare me.

[Axel]

Welch - is archery still legal in England? - I don't own a gun myself, but do have a sword and a few crossbows.....

That and my dogs make me feel reasonably secure in my own home.....

[smurfin]

Sorry 'bout that Bdog, I just get angry with people who abuse people or animals. I have seen the results of what people can do to children and animals. I am not a turn the other cheek kind of guy. Where I was raised people who rape women or children still disappear never to be heard from again. It only happens with people coming in from outside as most of the locals are well aware of the penalties. It is also rumored we also provide most of the hired killers for the entire southeastern region out of one town. Couldn't tell you for sure, but it would be one messy sight if they were to drain the 300 ft depths beyond the dam of smith lake. If I scare anyone my apologies, add my upbringing with Uncle Sam's training and you get little old me. Bill

[Paul V]

I don't advocate vigilante justice, as a) vigilantes being cruel to or killing criminals doesn't help anything -- all it proves is that the vigilantes are sick folks who enjoy being cruel to or killing people they hate. The distinction between cruel criminals and cruel vigilantes then becomes only a mater of perspective, by stooping to their level you're no better and no less deserving of their fate then they are.

And b) the mobs aren't always right. I prefer trial by jury to trial by lynch mob. At least with a jury there's a hope of justice.

I think we need to increase the penalties of the justice system, but we need to work within the system.

[U-96]

oo duplicate post, haven't had one of those for a while! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by U-96 (edited 03-09-2000).]

[U-96]

Axel, don't mention bows and arrows to WW http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

There are still laws in England (in the border cities of Chester and Hereford) that allow the legal murder of a Welshman using a longbow under particular circumstances...

I can kinda understand why he left... http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

U-96

[welsh wizard]

1.
to smurfin.
I left UK and went Africa, there the cops just said shoot them, as long as they are dead and the body is more than 50% inside the house thats fine if it's more outside than in, drag it back in. as for the barrels and river I have the sea at the back of my section, with one of the most evil chanels around, many a bod has gone missing there and never turned up as the chanel buries most things in the mud flats that no one can get to saftly.

2.
Axel
Don't forget the Welsh were always prized for their longbows, in 1485 the English found that out at Bosworth Field when a Welsh army put a young Henry Tudor who claimed descent from one of the old Royal Houses of Wales, ( the main reason he was able to raise a Welsh army that gathered at Brecon and went on to Bosworth and put an end to English rule of Briton) http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif in fact they ain't had a true English man on the throne since, Scotish, Dutch, and now German orig. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

3.
U96
yeh, they still allow you to kill a Scotsman on site on the Isle Of Man also, if I remember right it must be after dark.
also I believe most English men are considered fair game in most parts of mid Wales, I know Da who was born in 1902 is always getting into agro, because he loads his shootgun with rock salt, and takes pot shots at any one who crosses his farm land, he's feed up with them leaving gates open and letting his stock loose onto the mountain, he's allowed the 12 gauge for use on vermin control, fox's rabbits etc, he get's away with the rock salt trick only because by the time they try to find out what the hicker was shoot with the, the salt has dispersed and all thats left is a rash, so the cops inter that the hicker sat on some thing.( It's was a local Welsh bobby that told him years ago to use rock salt http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif )

As for leaving U.K. I felt that the way they joined the EC was the beginning of the end for the whole place,( they truned there back on all of the commonwealth and left them just out there) and since I been gone I haven't seen any thing to change my mind, in fact it seems to get worse, 17.5% VAT, Noddy man as PM , and if he has his way no real government just area councils that will answer to the EC, you won't even have the pound stirling left. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif

WW



[This message has been edited by welsh wizard (edited 03-10-2000).]

[smurfin]

Paul, paul, paul. Poor misguided human. Have you not read the thread. Justice rarely works, I know better than most, I have worked within the system for a long time. I know the police department staff by name(well probably only about 70 of them, the new ones escape my memory). I have worked in the courts where a mother is given so many opportunities to kill her child and constantly returned when the child is healed enough to withstand a little more abuse. I LEFT that system. I would rather deal with computers than crackheads! As for vigilante justice, who knows? certainly not me. Two jobs back, before my conscience started to gnaw away at me and I changed my heart(obviously not to a sheep)then there was no room for mercy within me for the abusive people that surround our families. When I started to feel like killing a parent who beat their child almost to death(And yes, I have been on the scene when they actually did kill the child!)vs. helping them to deal with their problems, then I knew it was time to get out. It came to my attention that people rarely changed and the state and federal mandate to give them the opportunity to change resulted in MORE lives lost. Go to the hospital and hold the hand of a dying little girl, watch later as the court frees the person, because they did therapy...Uh yeah that really worked...Then watch as their youngest child enters the ER for the 7th time in her life for lacerations and a concussion. YOU hold her hand and tell her that it will be okay the system works and of course you won't go back again. I would myself get no pleasure from killing or injury of such a person who perpetrated these crimes, but I WOULD find relief in their absence...As the dead child would have, and the living child might come to know. Bill