Moralities and Society?!????

[buddmann]

As the title states,
I don't proffess to be the most sophisticated person around but I am deeply disturbed by what I've been seeing on television lately. As I've read most of the forums on this BB I know that some people let thier thoughts be known to the public so here are some of my thoughts.
First I saw and heard a man come out and say that he was in love with his sister and that they were intimate together and having a relationship which is still on going and they intend to continue with.
Next,a young man who is living with a woman for 3 years is told by him that he has been sleeping with his gay brother for the past year.
One more instance,a young man has been going out with a young lady for 3 years whom was still living with her mother. The boyfriend has been sleeping with the mother for 1 year.Now the mother and boyfriend are in a relationship and the mother does not see any err in her ways.
My questions,
What has happened to let these type of things progress in our society?
What has happened to our Morals?
Where does it go from here?
How do we respond to these issues?
Can anyone help me with these issues as they have really disturbed my frame of mind as to where our society is heading.
I know that society has progressed but where are we heading?
Thank You in advance for hearing me out on this.
Respectfully,
Roger aka buddmann

[ram]

It is a sad deal for sure http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif
Its the result of 20 or so years of if it feels good do it policy.My Bible tells me it will get worse also("In the last days good will be called evil and evil will be called good").We can only turn away from it and pray
that they will come to there senses.
Oh and dont watch Jerry Springer or those other garbage talk shows,there are still millons of good honest folks out there but you wont see them on those shows. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[El_Brio]

The current state of moral decay in this country is due to the politic of acceptance.

In an effort not to offend anybody, the politicians of this country are increasingly relectant to take moral stands on anything.
No one can speak out against any questionable moral practice anymore for fear of being branded a "radical right wing conservative" or worse yet a bigot/racist/hater

When we stop seting a clear example of what is RIGHT and what is WRONG for our children, the current state of affairs is the result.

This really isn't the place for a political discussion though, so please take your concerns to your local congressman.

Help stem the evil tide of moral ambiguity!
VOTE REPUBLICAN

[Apostle 83]

Buddman,

As ram said, it will get worse. It doesn't have to now, and it can get better for the time. But there will come a day when societies moral decadence will cause those who have standards to plug their moral noses and become "unaccepting of others," "condemning," and other terms (viewed more as conditions by some) thought up by those who have not the backbone to stand up for what is right.

If you are seriously looking at this subject, there is one book that I would really recommend you. Its by Josh McDowell- I can't remember everything, but the Main part of the title is, "The New Tolerance-!#@$!$^!#^$^!#$(the !@#%! being the part I can't remember)."

I highly recommend it if you are looking into what is going on and why in todays society.

________Add on

In my opinion, politics has little to do with the shape of the country, as it is morals that shape politics and not the other way around.



[This message has been edited by Apostle 83 (edited 02-23-2000).]

[Vincent22]

Agreed that we are in the decline of the Great American Empire. What caused it?
Although this is a representative Republic, it is founded on Democratic Principals, as a means of choosing those who are sent to Washington to SERVE. The laws through which we conceed to be GOVERNED, not ruled, however are based on moral principals derived from Theology. It originally was a small, neat, streamlined package, easily managed and maintained without too much hands on involvement from the public. Over the years this lack of involvemnt on our part has caused the Governing to believe they RULE, has caused the basis of new legislation to be focused on the concerns of the few rather than the majority, and the laws themselves have become immoral. Do I believe there is some force behind the scenes pulling the strings? Yes. We have become numb by the constant bombardment of language that is diametrically opposed to the principals that most of us adhere to in our hearts, and live by. Each time where it is stated in the news that, "The Government said today..." or "The President has ordered Congress..." , and we allow it to sink in, we fall from a position of empowerment to that of sheep. We beat our chests with pride and declare, "after all I am a TAXPAYER!!!", and never see the irony that once you were a CITIZEN endued with real power, unassailable, uninfringable, inailienable. But I digress.
Are there any married male sysopt members that could with a straight face explain to his wife or partner that BJ'S don't count as long as you are "bringin home the bacon"? Well that's exactly what happened to all of us. His job performance was high...so it doesn't matter. We are selling out every day.
Giving ground to politiacally correct speech, sensitivity, and tolerance. So to sum up...yes we are on a slide. there is no moral authority in our laws or leadership.
Robin Hood was a Marxsist http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
The person who develops the cure for Aids and Cancer is about to be legally aborted.
An the real reason for the Fall of Man isn't just disobedience, Adam and Eve were both defiled in that they believed a LIE. Their perception of truth, and subsequentlly our own, has been impaired.


MARANATHA

Sincerely

Vincent

[jad1097]

As always very well said George.
And most of the others that posted also.

Help stem the evil tide of moral ambiguity!
VOTE REPUBLICAN
I don't think so.

[This message has been edited by jad1097 (edited 02-23-2000).]

[ram]

See !! Like i said there are still alot of Moral folks out there,and a bunch of em are here on this MB.
Amen and Amen http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[Paul V]

The laws through which we conceed to be GOVERNED, not ruled, however are based on moral principals derived from Theology

I could not disagree more. Laws, in a just society, should not be based on morals, rather by the more pragmatic approach of regulations needed to maintain a stable society.

The point here is freedom. When the government enforces morals, the question is whose morals do they enforce? It creates a dictatorship of the majority, if you use our current system.

Say, for an example, you are in the minority for your sexual orientation (whichever orientation you belong to). Would YOU change your orientation because the majority (who are of the opposite orientation) declared it immoral? I for one am straight, and even if it was a crime to be straight I wouldn't change, because it's who I am and it's what I believe.

And I would never compromise my morals for the sake of a law, nor would I believe in morals because the law mandated it. All in all you'd simply steal people's freedom away if you regulate what consenting adults can do.

If I, an adult, choose to engage in a sexual behavior with any other consenting adult, it is not right to allow the government to say this is wrong. You may find certain permutations on the scenario immoral (as I do), but it is not your right to force your beliefs on others. It's not my right to force my beliefs on others.

Rather, teach morality, don't enforce it. If you believe you have found the correct religion and the correct set of morals, then preach them. Don't make them laws, don't make people follow against their will. If you really have the truth in your hands people will follow for the sake of the morals themselves.

God gave people freedom to choose, and similarly we must give people the freedom to choose as well, so long as they don't threaten harm to others, or force their beliefs upon unwilling people. People can't be forced to be moral or you miss the whole point of moral behavior -- acting good when you have every option NOT to.

There is no greater immorality than to force one's morality on another.

Teach, don't force. The one great thing about democracy as it's implemented in the USA is the freedom citizens are given. If we are told how to think, how to act, the system itself would be inherantly immoral. Rather, tell people how to be good but give them the option to be bad.

[Vincent22]

Paul,

I probably did not state this clearly and that's why there seems to be a rift. The laws of this nation at it's founding relied heavily on tyhe rights assigned to man by God. sorry for the misunderstanding...I am not in favor of a theocracy by any means.

[debbiesue]

Although I agree with most of what you all have said here regarding the decline in the morality of society, I do not, however, agree that we should just turn a blind eye to the depravity we are now being exposed to in society.

Programs such as Jerry Springer and others of his ilk provide a forum and "carte-blanche" for people to debase and humiliate and degrade others while the audience and viewers alike gobble it up with glee to see others so debased.

In my opinion, these forums are garbage who espouse garbage and should be, quite literally, dumped from existence!

Programs that children and adolescents are exposed to should be monitored first and foremost by their parents - unfortunately, it seems that a lot of parents are unconcerned with what their children are being exposed to - not from lack of caring or anything like that - most parents are probably exhausted from working and cannot stem the tide - but it, instilling moral values in our young, must begin at home.

God gave us all commandments to follow - not to toss aside because they no longer suit society's definition of morality - but because they are guidelines for what we must do in order to live according to God's law.

I know I will offend some when I say that homosexuality, incestuous acts, and other forms of depravity are against God's law - but you know what? it is God's Law! and it seems to me a couple of cities (Sodom & Gomorrah) were destroyed because of depravity such as this. Is this what we want to happen again?

[Paul V]

Firstly, the stories of the destructions of wicked cities may just be stories. After all, "for the sake of the one person, I will spare the city"

And if you feel that the way to live a moral life is to follow the traditional Christian way of living, more power to you! Follow your beliefs and be happy in your faith. But remember too, in Christian doctrine it's not the place of man to judge man. "Judge not lest ye be judged, and the measure with which you measure shall be measured back to you."

And don't try to force those of us, like myself (I am religious, I am spiritual, I just don't happen to follow a particular denomination) to follow what you consider God's laws -- because I don't see them as God's laws at all.

I think you can feel free to believe that things like homosexuality, etc. are sins. Those are your beliefs, and if you have cause to believe them, then believe as you will. Just remember, you aren't the only person with beliefs, I too believe, but in different things. Respect my beliefs and my morals, as I respect yours.

[Apostle 83]

Well, I don't care what anybody says, this nation was founded (law wise) on Biblical principles with most of the original code being reworded from biblical law.

Conduct wise, people lived with love for one another... honestly, all generations have struggled with morality issues. My current reading is a wonderful book, "Mormonism and the World Magic View." It has some very in depth research as to the moral state of america at different times, and really the only deal here is different generations struggle with different issues....

[Paul V]

I agree, every generation has its problems, and we're no different. Too many people look to an idyllic past that never really was. It's part of human nature to remember the past better than it was, and see the future worse than it will be. People, quite honestly, like to predict doom for the future.

But looking to the past with longing and to the future with bitterness is no answer at all. The past is gone, it's the future we must look towards. Not with bitterness and dire predictions, but with the realization that tomorrow, anything goes. Any future we can dream can happen, if we make it happen. Look to the future, not with cynicism, but with hope, and with purpose.

Don't judge others harshly, for in doing so you divide yourself from them. Don't categorize people by race or gender or age or creed, because again you divide yourself against them. Realize that everyone is human on the inside, we're really all the same.

"The perception that divides you from him is a lie/For some reason we never ask why/This is not a black and white world/You can't afford to believe in your side" -- Live, The Beauty of Gray


The answer to immorality is morality. Be moral yourselves, and reach out with love to all those around you. If everyone who complained about immorality in America was to actually DO something about it, we'd be as moral a nation as is possible. If everyone who prayed to end world hunger donated $10 to work to end world hunger, it would be gone. I think the real true problem in America is nobody will WORK to end problems. Yes, it's hard, but it is doable. Too many would rather complain about them Too few do anything about them.

I am in no way referring specifically to the people at SysOpt who posted in this thread, or others here, excepting in how their being part of the society I am critiquing. This isn't an attack against anyone who posted here, rather a challenge to all who read this and all they will affect.

So, my challenge to the world as a whole: Do something moral and helpful this week. It's not hard, just one single little act that makes someone else's life better. Light a candle instead of complaining about the darkness. And challenge others to do the same.

And note I don't consider simply avoiding immorality to be itself moral and helpful, rather it is to be expected. Do some little thing above and beyond to help someone at no gain to yourself.

[ram]

Paul:
I see you say government should not be the ones to instill morality?But arent they doing just that? I as a christian (no denomination)
am dead set aginst abortion but my taxs are going to state funded abortion clinics and i have now lost the right to peacefully protest aginst this (it is now aginst the law to protest around an abortion clinic). I belive
a person can do whatever they want in there own bedrooms(reffering to gays)but the govenment would have me accept this life style as normal,and when i speak out aginst this life style i am labeld a right wing gay bashing fanatic.There are many other areas where Government is pushing there morals on us like in our public schools.I agree They should do there job and leave the morals to the people but that wont happen,there is a battle going on for the minds of all people and we can not stand in the middle of the road.I will stand on the side of the Good and fight the good fight.

[Paul V]

I too believe the government should not allow abortions, because quite frankly I see it as murder, and like any murder I think it should be stopped. And this IS a function of government, because it should protect the rights of all those living within its borders, even those who cannot live on their own yet.

I agree that I do not want my tax dollars funding such an act, and DO think it should be stopped.

But homosexuality/incest/etc is not such an issue. I honestly DON'T think you should protest it. Just live a moral life for yourself, and teach those around you who will listen your ideas. Being anti-homosexual really is not a good way to be. Of course you are free to choose to believe that, but it sems to me that, like any kind of prejudice against people for attributes they are born with, it's a very bad thing to discriminate against.

And, to settle 2 major points of contention before you bring them up:

1) People ARE born homosexual or heterosexual or bisexual. There is lots of research to prove this, from twin studies to brain anatomical differences, this is almost an undoubtable truth. Nobody chooses their orientation. I never decided one day after careful research of my options that I was going to be sexually attracted to women. I just am, I am heterosexual and that's just part of what makes me me, just as I am male, and caucasian. I didn't choose it, it just is who I happened to be born as. And even if I was discriminated against, I would not allow myself to be forced into living homosexually, if that was the norm. Likewise someone born homosexual should not have a heterosexual lifestyle forced upon them, nor should they be discriminated against for how they were made. Let them celebrate their lives as God made them. Support love, any kind of love.

2) Homosexuality is not unnatural, and in fact it is seen in virtually every mammalian species, especially primates. It's part of nature. It IS normal. It has existed since before the human race itself existed.

[This message has been edited by Paul V (edited 02-23-2000).]

[RobRich]

I'm not taking a stand on the gay/lesbian thing (one of my better friends is a lesbian), but I will respond to some of the issues presented above. Our society is a fault of a failing judicial system and lack of interest in the community or even one's self. When a person can receive 40 years for robbing a bank, but a murder can get 10 years, I see a MAJOR problem. Without reform of our current standards, I don't even see our society existing 40 years from now. I mean we will still be here, but it definitely won't be like it is now or ever was.

I think religion is a good first step into seeking the balance that we need to achieve. I'm not going to recommend any particular from of religion or worship, but I beleive that one takes an active role in learning about themselves. When the majority wakes up and realizes that their not sheep that folow the leader, but rational individuals that can take an active role in out society, will we see improvement.

When people remove themselves from their form of complacent acceptance, and learn that a whole world exists, and that to suceed and thrive responsiblity is needed. To believe it, no one is responsible for anything anymore. What happened to the fact that when a murder killed someone, they were tried, found guilty, and proper sentencing was performed. But instead, now you can have a whole panel of supposed "experts" that can explain such things as: temporary mental insanity, genetic malfunctions and disorders, displaced aggression sysdrome, and the rest of the garbage out there. Instead of sending the killer to prision, he'll end up in a mental facility, and probably be out within a few years. Now take a bank robber on the other hand. He will most likely get 40-60 years in a maximum security prision. What has happended to common sense? It seems to have completely dissolved from our everyday thoughts.

It also seems a large percentage of our society has lost he ability to function without someone leading them. Without mass media, and popular culture, some people couldn't even exist. When the massses realize that they can take an active role in not only the society, but in discovering their own selves, I beleive we can rebound from this this.

I don't have a quick fix solution, but I do know that we can not continue at this pace. I'm only 19 years old, so I'm still learning a lot about life in extremely large steps, so I can't proclaim to have all (or any) of the answers. I do think that once people come to the realization that someones else besides thereselves exist we will make significant progress. I hope better for the future, but I have problems just addressing the issues of the present.

Wish I had the answers,
Robert Richmond

[CMonster]

Just as the moon is the unseen, and heretofore unimagined, cause of the tides, there is an unseen and unimaginably evil source for these decadent trends in our society. People do not even realize that they are victims, caught in this conflict of spiritual gravity. Furthermore, if your effort to hold back the tide proves impossible - at least on an oceanic scale - so also it is going to prove impossible by human effort alone to hold back the darker side of this mortal veil. Indeed, a little tide sways inside of each one of us.

It has been attributed to the creator to have said, "I repent that I have made man…the imagination of his heart is only evil continually…" and with that He caused a flood - but left a seed alive - so we now are back to the present and former state.

I think the key to controlling the tide is not to curb the waters at all, but to free them from the influence of the moon - which on an earthly scale would stagnate the oceans and kill the world. Likewise, we are told to expect a time when the unseen cause of the amoral human tide will be removed, defeated, and bound, at that time also the life as we knew it will cease to exist but a far better one is to take its place.

In the meantime, there are those of us who believe that we must act as the "control rods" in this nuclear reactor called earth, again it is written, "Ye are salt and ye are light." Let us be careful not to loose our savor.

my 2 cents...George Posten




[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 02-23-2000).]

[Paul V]

I agree that the moral state of affairs is lax, but it is not the job of government to enforce morality!!

Morality, firstly, is by no means something everyone can agree upon. Although there are a few basic moral truths that cannot be doubted without destroying the very fabric of society (things like stealing, killing, rape, etc are wrong), many things that many people consider moral issues are by no means universal.

Secondly, if an act is to be considered moral it has to be done for a moral reason. If I act good because I'm afraid of getting arrested, it's no triumph, if I act good because I believe I should act good even though I am free to act evilly, that is some accomplishment.

Morality has to be taught, and believed from the heart, or it's meaningless. Government should NOT regulate morality. They should provide infrastructure, and make the governed area a place where people have freedom, yet with enough rules to enforce the safety of the populace. It's not the governments job to enforce morality, nor should it be. That is up to the individuals who choose morality or immorality, and to divine justice if you believe in it. No just government should interfere.

These people are adults, and they are old enough to be given the freedom to make their choices. And just because you or society as a whole thinks their choices are bad doesn't give you the right to make their choices for them. As long as everyone involved consents, and as long as they aren't stealing/killing/raping/etc, and they aren't trying to force others to do as they do, let them do what they want, and let them be held accountable for their choices.

When the government starts telling us how to choose, we give up far too much freedom. What governmental control would give us is the morality of a slave -- moral because we'd have no freedome to be immoral.

[Paulgro]

I was going to keep out of this, but I wouldn't feel right in the morning.

The end of the world isn't coming, believe me! Cities arn't going to crumble because someone is Gay!

Everyone talks about how the laws were made when this country first began. I've heard the Bible mentioned Christian beliefs and other things mentioned. Read your history, it wasn't all that great for the Indians when all those moral people got off the boat. Later it wasn't a great time in Salem either! We have a bad habbit of judging people because the don't do things the way we do.

Every generation has talked about moral decay since day one. They have also preached the end of the world. Government, religious beliefs, politics and even Rock music has been blamed for the decline of society, but we're still here.

Maybe if people just do the right thing and keep their noses out of other peoples business we might be here a little longer.

[U-96]

Maybe it all started here:



9:20
And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

9:21
And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

9:22
And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

9:23
And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

9:24
And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.



Morality comes from the bottom, not from the top. It's how I treat my friends, not how I'm told to...
If Noah wants to get tanked-up on fermented grape juice and run around ****-naked, thats fine by me.

Politicians and religious leaders of all denominations are responsible for some of the most heinous crimes, scandals and intolerances in history. Their opinion really is quite redundant as far as I am concerned.

U-96


[This message has been edited by U-96 (edited 02-24-2000).]

[Brangwen]

There is really a very simple solution, and one which you have complete control over. To wit: Do the right thing yourself. Go to sleep at night with a clear conscience. You are only obliged to live with yourself. Stop, check please. That's it.

Brangwen