My state was top news today! wow! [Archive]

U-96

01-18-2000, 01:28 AM

The swastika flag is part of German history, but is banned in Germany. Nuff said.
For hundreds of thousands of those descended from slaves, the Confederate battle flag symbolises that portion of American society which was prepared to die to keep the black man enslaved.
If the civil Confederate flag is an alterative without such association, I think it would be a suitable compromise. After all, flying swastikas over the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem wouldn't be well received. Symbols can provoke very strong emotions, especially when such despicable events are associated with them.

U-96

PS Dave_H - good point about candidates steering clear of the issue... I'm surprised as Bradley seems to enjoy pushing his "racial harmony" policy otherwise...

jad1097

01-18-2000, 01:35 AM

If you are proud,fly it. I am a yankee and it does not bother me a bit.Of course we won the war. Here in Tennesse there has been a real big deal about the rebal flag. Even a school name was changed from the rebels or something a while back. narayan is correct it is a very impotant part of our history.
I have lerned many things about the cival war since I moved here.
I can not understand why some people take offence of this. They should just get over it. It is a part of history after all and some people are very proud of their heritage.

U96 very well said I did not even consider it from that veiw.

[This message has been edited by jad1097 (edited 01-18-2000).]

welsh wizard

01-18-2000, 04:07 AM

jad1097 do you reckon your state willbe the wild card and win the super bowl, as for flags they are aprt of history, and history teaches us all.
WW

Chaostician

01-18-2000, 05:13 AM

Hey WW...

The Titans will be there!!!

As for the flag... I live here in Tennessee and I don't like the rebel flag! It reminds me of wars long ago over things most of us are ashamed of. I was raised all over the world and nowhere but the US southern states do we allow such disrespect to be shown to our fellow human beings. As for the German WWII flag, I'm part German... and I am not proud to say that c. 1900-1990 are part of my history. I'm glad its illegal to wave a flag that stands for carniage, rape, tourture, destruction and hate!

All in all I think the same should be done here in the US. History is great to learn from but keep it in the books where it can be taught to kids, young and old. We all know that history is doomed to repeat it's self.

-Just my thoughts-
-Chaostician (P.S. - I'm part Irish, German, Spanish a little French and Moroccan. But I'm all American)

Serge

01-18-2000, 06:33 AM

U-96 said it best.. people have to understand that the confederate flag represents the black holocost in this country. When a black person sees it its the same when a Jewish person sees a swastika. Are people really so dumb that they don't understand this?? I think they are just really racist.. and in case of politicians that's uncertain.. but what's certain is that if the politicials (especially southern Republicans) ARE NOT racist then they just don't have the backbone to speak out against it. That brings up a question whether you want such individuals as your leaders. But once again.. population doesn't serve it's leaders.. the elected leaders serve the population and so if they truly reflect the SC people feelings I say fine.. let NAACP boycott them for a few years.. let the state become known as "the hate" state (or such) and we'll see how willing the people of SC will be then.. to think and end their racist ways.

reddog4629

01-18-2000, 07:44 AM

Anybody from Connecticut? This SH!*&#T REALLY upsets decent people in this country. http://www.frc.org/culture/cu99c4.html
Scroll down near the bottom of the page.

Serge

01-18-2000, 08:20 AM

First we name homosexuals INDECENT... then atheists.. then.. non-Christians then.. anyone else we might not like.. and ofcourse we can't have INDECENT people exercise the same rights as us. Today we deny them a right to fly a flag, tomorow a right to teach in schools and serve their country in the military.. day after tomorow we justify their murder on grounds that their were INDECENT.

I sure like to hear your explanation of "decent person" reddog4629.

I've done a study on "Christianity and homophobia (in U.S.)" for a college paper last semester... and horrid limitation of homosexual idividuals rights that go on in this country were almost too overwhelming to "uncover".

jad1097

01-18-2000, 09:04 AM

WW,
They are going. They have a new name,new stadium and now they need some new rings.
Chaostician, Ever been to the Stones river battlefeild? My wife made me take the tour over there once and I learned allot about the cival war. They had one hell of a fight here in Murfreesboro.

reddog4629

01-18-2000, 09:10 AM

U think it's "decent" for homosexuals to marry and raise kids? Who's the "daddy"?
What's the definition of good human morality? And when gay pride day is at Disneyworld how do u explain that to your 5 year old? "and horrid limitation of homosexual individual rights"? Why do they try to FORCE their un-natural style on the public? Tell ya one thing-they stay the hell away from MY kids.

Serge

01-18-2000, 09:25 AM

"What's the definition of good human morality?"

If you're suggesting that the Christian Bible is the source for good human morality you're saying that:
1) Everyone non-Christian is immoral.
2) Humans are incapable of determining basic morality by themselves and need some external source such as the Bible.

Would you allow a flag representing alcohol drinking be flown in place of a rainbow flag?.. a sizable portion of population (if not a large majority) drinks (even ocassionaly) and enjoy it. Would you deny them the right of representation by not allowing them to put up such a flag?

The main question is simple.. do we live in democracy or do we give (supposed) majority totalitarian control over minority's rights?

narayan

01-18-2000, 09:50 AM

Slavery has existed under the American flag for much longer than under the Confederate flag. Slavery only existed under the Confederate flag for only 4 years. Removing the Confederate flag may cause some people to forget. We do not want that. U-96, good point about the Nazi flag. Serge, The Bible is a good source for morality. Good morals will not allow one to judge another based on his religion. The lessons in the Bible are lessons everyone can follow, and that can be done without subscribing to the Christian religion. All of this "feel good" talk is getting me down. Do we just remove things in this country that upset certain groups of people? It is impossible to not offend everyone at the same time. The color red may offend retired prostitutes, The word "lawn" may replace "grass" as not to offend the ex-potheads, the words "racism" and "republican" being used in conjunction with each other offends me, but I will not seek legislation to affect that.

Serge

01-18-2000, 10:56 AM

narayan:

Regarding the confederate flag.. I never mention anything about "forcefully" removing it and stated that "fine.. let NAACP boycott them." In the rainbow flag case.. was it not "forcefully" removed?

Chaostician

01-18-2000, 11:23 AM

Jad...

Yes I have... It's a beautiful park. I live about 5 miles from there here in Murfreesboro. (I'm at work in Nashville right now) But I like to have picnic's out there in the summer.

dkozloski

01-18-2000, 11:40 AM

It's too bad that the revisionists of history
have managed to completely cloud the real reasons behind the Civil War which were states rights and Federalism or the strength of the central government. The political correctness wacko's have over the years touted slavery as the big issue but it was not the main issue. Basically the South did not want the North to dictate to them about a number of things all involving the powers of the states v. congress.

narayan

01-18-2000, 01:24 PM

daveleau, only because a group says the flag means one thing that it does not, why should it be removed? How about education? What if one day a group says the American flag representes warmongers? Should it be removed?

pickel

01-18-2000, 01:25 PM

Dave: The civil war was over, guess what, MONEY!!! All the other reasons that have been brought forth are either an excuse or a coverup. The South (I use capitals in respect of the brave soldiers of the Confedercy) was being ripped off big time by the North. They grew all the raw materials shipped them to the industrial states who made a killing on their products.The poor kept getting poorer and the rich richer. Not much has changed has it???? It was the manipulation of southern
"Good Ole Boys" by the land ownwers and politicians that started and sustained this tragic part of our countries history. Their
battle flag should hold the same respect for those who cherish it as the flag that Betsy Ross made for our fledling country.

the pickel

daveleau

01-18-2000, 01:35 PM

I agree that the battle flag should be respected. I do respect it. I think the Stars and Bars should be flown instead. Not the Battle Flag. We're not at war. Unfortunately education has turned on deaf ears. Many have tried and many have failed. Whenever the subject comes up between friends, even, they don't want to hear it (if they are against the flag). I have tried to explain that slavery was a pawn to help win the war. I just want peace. I want the flag flown but on a monument on state grounds dedicated to those who gave their lives in the name of the Confederacy.

cyphen

01-18-2000, 02:17 PM

daveleau, dkoz, i have to interject my disagreement for the reasons behind the start of the Civil War.

The South wasn't being treated unfairly by the North, and they weren't poor, either. The North was largely industrial whereas the South was not. The south needed slavery to survive, because they had become dependent on it as the main source of their workforce. Escaped and freed slaves made their way North, where there was little or no slavery. They were safe there, and protected. As escape and freeing of slaves by abolitionists became more and more an issue, the South complained. This fell on deaf ears, as there was already much legal opposition to slavery - the North would no longer stand for it. When legislation threatened to make slavery illegal, the south wanted out of the union so they could make their own laws about slavery. So for those who say that the civil war was about the right to secede from the union- it was to a point. They only wanted to secede because the north threatened to abolish slavery, which would have all but crippled their production capability. (IMO - god forbid they do the work themselves...)
And that's my 2 cents.

daveleau

01-18-2000, 02:52 PM

No offense but I have to disagree. Slavery wasn't an issue until 1/2 way throught the war. The French wanted to help so they could continue to reep the benefits of our cotton. The slavery issue detered them and the South lost. No offense but...
Dave

Serge

01-18-2000, 03:11 PM

From CNN:

"South Carolina began flying the flag in 1962 as a gesture of "defiance" of racial desegregation."

jeana

01-18-2000, 05:02 PM

Whatever the true history of the Confederate flag, the fact is that today it has acquired several significances to different people. Let's see how many we can list:
(1) Symbol of pride and history in the hard-fighting ancestors of white Southern people
(2) Symbol of defiance against Northerners
(3) Symbol of defiance against PC people and liberals
(4) Symbol of unity among white Southerners
(5) and therefore symbol of division in the Union
(6) Symbol of fear and hate directed towards black people

Now, who's going to argue with (1) and (4), or maybe even (2) and (3)? However, when you fly a flag like that you've GOT to know that it intimidates or antagonizes a good number of other people. When you're trying to live in peace with people, sometimes you've got to be aware when you're pushing their buttons.

For instance, if you're working in an office with somebody who needs a bit of quiet to concentrate, knowingly humming and tapping your fingers is sometimes tantamount to a declaration of war! Or, if you're living in a city, you don't keep geese and cattle in your back yard because yer neighbors will get pissed.

The point is, when you're doing something small that seems to create great problems, you cut it out.
Of course, some people are offended by everything! Or sometimes there's an issue that you all feel very strongly about and can't agree about: well, these types of conflicts will never end until people make an effort to compromise.

It's a government's job to promote peace and cooperation among its people. Flying a flag of any particular group is bound to please some people and offend others. If, as in the current case with SC, the government identifies itself with any one of these groups, the people not belonging to this group are bound to feel oppressed and threatened. So, I'd be all for Southern Pride week or month or whatever, even celebrated nationwide, but I think that a permanent Confederate battle flag over my state capital would worry me.

Not that it's likely: I'm from CT! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif I have no problem with the gay pride flag being flown periodically. I know others (including my parents) do. I don't equate openly gay people with child molesters. But hey, that's just me.

[This message has been edited by jeana (edited 01-18-2000).]

jeana

01-18-2000, 05:23 PM

Speaking of waving red rags before bulls as I was, will you folks stop posting so many political threads on the forum??? http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif I'm trying to get some work done around here and every time I turn around these days there's another hot issue that I just HAVE to answer as a matter of conscience!

Okay, now if I post another time in the next week you guys have to say, "Stop wasting time, girl, and get back to work!"

Jeana

Vincent22

01-18-2000, 06:43 PM

In actuality "History" has taken great comic liberty when it endeavors to explain the Civil War and the reasons for the action itself.
First off...the war was not fought to free the slaves. The underlying cause was state rights or sovereignty. Granted the freedom of slaves was the central issue that brought states rights to the table so to speak but the split with the Union was a result of a Federal Mandate not being acceptable to those who withdrew.

Let me ask this question. Although Lincoln did institute conscription how many Northeners would have fought a war against other Americans if it were for the purpose of freeing the slaves? For that matter how many working class southerners would have joined up to kill, to fight and possibly die so that an aristocratic element could remain in comfort???
Furthermore John Wilkes Booth was not far from the truth in referring to Lincoln as a Tyrant. He overstepped the bounds of his office and of Congress on many occasions and jailed disenters and those who opposed him under the charge of treason.
Although I understand that there are those who equate that flag as a symbol of a bitter and horrid time I don't think a little light on the subject could hurt. In my view in considering how many federal mandates are burdening the states and how absolutely intrusive the Federal Government has become in our everyday lives, I sometimes wish that John Brown had succeded in rousing the slaves to violently overthrow their masters in pursuit of thier own freedom. As it stands the states rights issue has fallen from the once prominent position it once held and is consistently violated at will by those who would dictate the rate of flow of your showerhead or what curriculmm is acceptable in our schools.
It's not what flag is flying that matters...it's will we ever return to embrace our own National flag and the Republic for which it stands.IMHO http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

BBA

01-18-2000, 07:34 PM

U-96...I read just your first response...you are gravely mislead!

As stated so elequently by Vincent above, it was not at all about keeping the black enslaved...but about the US gov't attempt to gain control over the southern states monetraily and regulatory. NOT BS!

The school books have it just a little off and harp on only the most obvious mis-doings that also took place in northern states (bet you didn't know that! Virginia had cotton picking slaves too)

The federalist won and they wrote the history books...end of story!

BTW: Did you know one of the reasons Virginia is still not Officially a "State" of the union is because they have never ratified the US constitution...Partly do to slave owners.... If you want proof...try to look up an official "State" office in Va, you will only find offices of the "Commonwealth of Virginia"

[This message has been edited by BBA (edited 01-18-2000).]

cyphen

01-18-2000, 09:40 PM

daveleau, I'm afraid we're in total diagreeance on this.
If the South didn't secede to preserve slavery ,then why did they secede? True the emancipation proclamation wasn't signed until late 1862, after the war started, but here is evidence that slavery was threatened by the North and the government of the US, which i maintain is why they wanted to secede in the first place.

"Others, the ultimatumists, urges that the Southern states present the Republicans with demands for concessions, and
see what they did, before leaving the Union. These demands, including a federal slave code for the territories and a pledge not to interfere in
the interstate slave trade, were of course met by Republican opposition."

Obviously this happened before the start of the war, because this was in debate before the states tried to secede. So slavery was an issue before the start of the war, which lends support to my statement.

cyphen

01-18-2000, 09:47 PM

one other little piece of evidence to support my claims:
The "New Constitution of the Confederacy" included the following:

"It explicitly guaranteed slavery in both states and territories, but banned the international slave trade."

daveleau

01-18-2000, 10:06 PM

There was fear in the South that slavery would be put to an end. The new states formed in the west were given the choice as to whether or not they wanted slavery. Most chose no. some chose yes. Older states were grandfathered in (ie the South). I would be interested in reading that piece of info that was stated above though. Give me a link if you found it on the web. I must say though, if it is in a history book, then it could be tainted. one of the spoils of victory is getting to write the history that preceded the war. LMK where you got it. Very interesting.

montanafan

01-18-2000, 10:28 PM

Yes, there were many issues dividing the North and South prior to the war, but slavery played a role throughout, and lent the spark to what may have otherwise been extinguished through negotiation:

Triangular Trade
The Industrial Revolution
Louisiana Purchase
Abolitionists
Missouri Compromise
States Rights
Nat Turner
Mexican War
Underground railroad
Compromise of 1850
Fugitive Slave Act
Uncle Tom's Cabin
Dred Scott decision
Lincoln-Douglas debates
Kansas-Nebraska Act
Bleeding Kansas
Harpers Ferry
John Brown
Crittenden Compromise

On the other hand, when someone says that the Confederate flag represents a heritage, history, and culture that goes well beyond the single issue of slavery, they are also correct. The vast majority of Confederate soldiers did not own slaves nor did they belong to families that owned slaves. They were fighting to defend their families and land, for respect, for honor, for the glory that many thought awaited them, and to preserve a way of life that included slavery, but much more as well.

There's passion on both sides. Obviously the flag is viewed by many as a symbol of slavery and a lingering racism. For many southerners though, when they defend that flag they see it as defending their ancestors from being lumped into one despised group labeled as nothing more than hateful, ignorant racists.

Tough topic. I think the best solution is to take the flag down from the capitol, but fly it over Confederate cemeteries and battlegrounds.

There's something inherently dangerous in trying to wipe out all reminders of an historical perspective.

daveleau

01-18-2000, 10:30 PM

Well put montanafan.

pickel

01-19-2000, 12:23 AM

I'm sorry, but this flag thing thing is a big cop out!!! Let them fly their **** flag, no one is stopping anyonme else from flying their own flag. Why don't the people in protest stand up and show thier protest in some manner visible to the world, instead of whining and crying like a bunch of spoiled brats. If you got something to say , show it for all the world to see. If the black folks don't like it , come up with a flag that represents their opinion. Fly it under the nation's flag at their homes, their businesses. front licence plate on their vehicles, bumper stickers!! The Black Panther
flag would more than make their point.
Remember the "peace" sign in the 60's. Had a big part in ending the war where so many of
my friends never came back from or came home in peices, physically and mentally. Put something in someone's face long enough and
you'll get a reaction. Esspecially in this
election year, where the truth is distorted
and honesty takes a backseat to bull****.

I have returned....the pickel

[This message has been edited by pickel (edited 01-18-2000).]

daveleau

01-19-2000, 12:48 AM

Ok guys. I was expecting responses but this many so fast?! Wow.

I am a born and bread southerner. I have become more and more liberal (I still consider myself a conservative though) as time has gone on. One thing people MUST realize is that the war was not started b/c of slavery. The war was started b/c the south was being treated unfairly and not represented effectively in Washington. France was about to aid the south. Thus Lincoln had to find a way to stop this or the South might actually succeed and split from the Union. Thus, Lincoln made slavery and issue. It was nothing more than a political manuever. Slavery was not the cause of the war. Thus the flag does not signify a 'black holocaust'. I do believe it has its place. I don't think its place is on our state capitol. Since so many are offended (wrongly offended, but that is not the issue), I think it should be removed.

You know it would have been very bad if Lincoln had not stepped in and made this move. It has not come without reprecussions though. It changed the entire view of the war and what people remembered. And, to many, what it stood for.

Just my .02 again. Does that make .04 now? http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
Dave

daveleau

01-19-2000, 12:54 AM

U-96,
I just read throught the posts again and noticed your reply.

I must say that the German mass-murdering and the Civil War have very little in common. Please read my post above as to the cause of the war and where slavery fell into it.

Slavery and racism are by all accounts dead wrong. I hope noone thinks I think any differently. I have said before (and will again) that the flag definately needs to be removed. Not because it signifies our ties to slavery but because many people believe that it does represent that. I must say that it is unfortunate that so many evil groups use this flag. Actually more than unfortunate, it is horrible.
Dave

[This message has been edited by daveleau (edited 01-18-2000).]

U-96

01-19-2000, 02:15 AM

Wow daveleau, you really kicked open a hornets nest here!

There are some excellent points made here, and I have learned a little more about American history. It is quite obvious that the legacy of the Civil War still divides America today.

BBA - you are quite correct.

To clarify, I do not suggest that the Civil War was similar to the Jewish Holocaust - I believe that was Serge's assertion - but merely illustated the fact that what may seem inoffensive, even admired by some can be offensive for others. Also, I am aware of the North's economic and legislative demands on the South, and it is certain that among those, the abolition of slavery would have economically crippled the South, regardless of whether one actually owned slaves or not. It equates to doubling the pay of every manual worker in the modern US - it would lead to massive inflation and unemployment, and no doubt civil unrest.
It is also easy to impose our own current perceptions and attitudes on 1860s America, forgetting that the mindset of those times was vastly different to our current outlook. Slavery may be the most important modern perception of the Civil War, but the legal, social and economic factors are also important to remember, and posts above eloquently expand those themes. In my opinion they still exist today and still have the potential to fragment American society, as does race.
It is in this interest that I maintain the flag should be removed. It serves only to intimidate those who DO associate it with slavery and persecution and enforce their suspicions (however real they may be) that the state legislature is inherently and institutionally racist.

There was great bravery, stupidity, loyalty and cruelty on both sides of the war. Personally, I believe that, in spite of his achievements, Lincoln was an autocratic and egotistical man with a purpose to antagonise the South to justify war. The slavery aspect was blatantly used as moral highground, but that does not justify or endorse the right to keep slaves, even if it was allowed in the Constitution. Heck, they even taxed it (although considered its abolition, though not before 1808 - Article 1, sect 9).

There are parallels with the swastika for Jews, or hammer and sickle for eastern Europeans, fasces for Italians, Star of David for Palestinians, British Union Jack for the Ireland (or Scotland, Wales, India, Pakistan, Canada, Austalia, South Africa, New Zealand, Kenya, Singapore, Hong Kong, Ghana, Tanzania, Rhodesia, and of course, the USA) or any other flag that has symbolised tyranny to a particular group of people.

I don't think I'd be appreciated for flying the Jack from Boston City Hall, so it's fair to assume that a flag associated with racism and slavery (however fair that association is, it exists) will offend people opposed those ideas - an increasingly important element of US society as the population becomes racially more divergent than ever.

U-96

PS The Brits supported the South initially, despite ourselves having abolished slavery in 1834, because the supply of cotton was vital to Britain's cloth industry. Several frigates were ordered from British shipyards, but were confiscated by the govt when we secured assurances from the North and cotton from India. Seems our 'ethical foreign policy' has always been around http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

cyphen

01-19-2000, 09:24 AM

dave - here ya go

http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu:80/vshadow2/outlines/secession.html

Yeah - i'm actually very sensitive to the fact that history is taught inaccurately. In fact - my school (I live in Michigan) taught that the Civil War was about the right to secede from the Union - which i disagreed with and still do. Because they wanted to secede from the Union to preserve slavery. So while the war was fought TO secede from the Union, it was about slavery. It's true that a lot of that was economically based.

I hope you don't take offense to this, as none is meant, i'm just wondering where you got your information. While the victors tend to rewrite history, so does the other side. I was in Germany when Schindler's List came out, and I was a little shocked to discover that watching that movie was the first time many German Youths had heard anything of the Holocost. They simply don't teach it over there. (Or at least didn't - i don't know if they do now...)

I was also a bit shocked to find out that in England, children are taught that England would have been fine in WWII without the Help of the US. My neighbors are from England, and their daughter was adimantly arguing that 'fact'. So yeah, history can take on a lot of perspectives.

U-96, several good points, but while Lincoln was no saint, he can hardly be blamed for antagonising the South to justify the war. The war had all but begun by the time he was elected. He was only in office for a few weeks when the southern states had seceeded. it was an issue before his time - and he didn't even get elected on a platform of abolition, so that didn't play into it either. In fact, i've read that even while in office, Lincoln was basically a white supremist, but as the war went on and the abolition movement grew stronger, he began to sympathise. The south started the war, pure and simple. Otherwise, they would have attended the peace convention in DC. They didn't want peace unless a condition of that peace was to maintain slavery. The US was going to outlaw slavery. The South rebelled. They seceeded and took up arms. The plain truth is that they didn't believe that slavery was wrong. Otherwise, they would have attempted to find another solution to the economic problems instituted by freeing the slaves.
If you disagree with me, just look at the Crittendon "Compromise". This was an attempt by the south to forego war. Some attempt. Baiscally they said - well, what if you just eliminate slavery in the North and make it legal for all time in the South? Hmmm some attempt at compromise....

daveleau

01-19-2000, 01:28 PM

Wow, those are some skewed views. I can understand why Germany didn't teach the Holocaust. Most of the stuff I have learned has been through classes (history in college) (I went to the Citadel. Cadets actually fired the first shots of the Civil War) and through relatives. I don't have any that claim to be decendants of Confederate soldiers.

As a side- When I lived in Toledo Ohio, my brother was in high school and I was beginning Kindergarden. His HS's fight song was Dixie and at the half they ran around with the Battle flag. Very strange for a school in the extreme north. (near Michigan I might add. That's why I'm a Red Wings fan too)

seti

01-19-2000, 02:44 PM

Somewhat related:

Flipping channels I see Maury Povich, the show is about racism....one white racist is wearing a t-shirt with a confederate flag. Next channel.....

daveleau

01-19-2000, 03:12 PM

Like I said before, unfortunatley there are many attrocities done under this flag or that. Very unfortunate.

Serge

01-20-2000, 05:30 AM

If I remember corrently the "Dixie song" was written by a freed slave in the North and "stolen" by Confederacy as their fight song.

welsh wizard

01-20-2000, 06:10 AM

Well something about the Jonney Reb flag from an non American that may not be known, this flag overseas is not always seen as a slavers flag, but quite often seen as a flag portraying a free spirit, an act of defiance against authority, and may of the baby boomers that had their hay day in the 60's think of it that way, " Duke's of Hazzard"
just an example.
This flag seems to creat more agro in the US than overseas, and I have never heard any one compare it to the NAZI flag, maybe time has hiden things that have happened but to compare the Southern flag to the Nazi flag I think is an insult not only to the Americans in the South but also those who the southerners called Yanky, Pickle pointed out some things which I feel were missed, it wasn't a war about slavery it was firstly about economics, slavery was just added after it started, and when did the Non white in the US get his vote as an equal american, was it not in responce to all the cival rights campains through the 60's and 70's
WW

cyphen

01-20-2000, 08:52 AM

welsh, if i'm wrong, plz correct me with some evidence, but from the evidence i've posted above, economics was secondary to the slavery issue, because the attempts by the republicans to free the slaves is what made it an economic issue. The south felt they couldn't survive economically without slavery. And while its true that the slavery issue was used in the war, it was also the root cause of the war. Everything else is just semantics dressing up the cause of the war to make it look nicer.
It's true that most non white americans didn't receive full constitutional rights until much later, but hey, rome wasn't built in a day. Maybe it civil rights could have been implemented faster, maybe not. But I'll tell you that in many places especially in the south, there's still a sentiment of racism in the air. Some of my family lives in Tennessee and they witness it every now and then. But it's not as bad as it used to be. These things just take time.