Violence at our schools

[AQR8]

Just watched the 6:00 news and heard yet another disturbing story here in CA. Seems they today arrested a 14 yr old boy at a jr high school with plans to duplicate the Colorado incident. The kids at school turned him in, seems he had elaborate plans for the attack, getaway and evading police. He was in process of securing the guns and "assistants". The frequency of this type of thing is very disturbing. People are being faced with difficult decisions regarding the safety of their children. Move, home school, new school, pray, hope for best, live in denial? Don't know the answer to any of the many aspects of the underlying issues. I'm not even sure if I feel better but I did get it off my chest.

What are your thoughts?

[AuraEdge]

It seems that kids are getting worse and worse at younger n younger ages.

Just today at my CATHOLIC highschool we had half a dozen seniors expelled cuz they were snorting coke in the bathroom.
Can you believe that? Wasting your whole 3 1/2 year highschool career on one day..now those girls probably will never graduate.
Its a real shame they way things are turning out with kids.
We have shootings, bomb threats, and drugs all over our schools.
Really makes you think where the youth are headed, ya know?

[rl]

the problem is nto the violent kids.. it is the kids that harrass them, and verbaly, and phsicly abuse them so much that cause them to be that way, there truley is only so much someone can take, they are just going about it the wrong way. when something happens to me, i will always just confront the person, whether it ends up with one of us leaving in a little pain, or not, in the end nothing to bad has happend, and i feel much better (unless im the one leaving in pain http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif )

[This message has been edited by rl (edited 12-15-1999).]

[jad1097]

It looks like I just may do the home school thing in a few years. These kids are just getting worst every year. I thought I was bad when I was a teenager. But these kids are doing things I never would have done and I did all kinds of things that I will not get into here!
Maybe its all part of some kind of plan to take our weapons away!
From all the subliminal stuff that the average person is not aware of. Just read a few books or do some surfing you will find it. It is extremly scary. I do allot of reasearch on phsycology and things as such. Just an hour of meadatation a day will show allot of this stuf. And no I am not crazy.YES mom I am taking the meds every day!
I was one of those kids always in trouble and stuff.I ended up droping out ur kicked out of HS @ age 15! Well I hit a security guard cause he pushed me.Anyway I am one of those people who beleives that the music and movies etc.. have allot to do with it. I just can't understand why these kids who seem to be "outcast" get so offened these days. Hell most of these kids come from decent familys. I used to hang in the getos of Miami @ 14 and 15 years old. These kids don;t even know what a rough life is like. I was a burnout ,punk and listend to rap before most whites even knew what rap was.

I know what the problem is PARENTS DO NOT CONTROL THERE KIDS ANYMORE!!!!! If I disipline my child in public I risk going to jail. DHS has the right to take your children if they want to and for no real reason. All they have to say is there is the possibility of abuse. The acutal abuse never has to happen. If my house is a mess the have the right to take my children! We are losing more and more of our rights every day because of what a select few think is right. I think I have said enough. I could keep going on for an hour.

[This message has been edited by jad1097 (edited 12-15-1999).]

[AQR8]

AuraEdge - that was your 999th post. Congratulations!

I don't know if the kids are really any worse than when I was a kid, but they sure are exposed to things that I wasn't. I'm not one to blame everything on external circumstances. I am big on taking personal responsibility for your actions. It's too easy to blame this or that. Bottom line is everyone has choices they make, consciously or not. We've just got a whole lot more we need to be aware of and deal with.

[pickel]

The main trouble with the younger generation
is they don't care if the get caught or not.
A Edge , I went to Catholic school and the nuns would get out a strap and beat your ***
then when you got home with the note that had to be signed by you parents, you got your *** beat again. Theses kids have NO FEAR. With all the technology and no discipline they feel they can do what they want and who really cares until after the fact. They get on the dope which distorts their perceptions.
And being immature with no sense of responsibility, they have no control over their destiny and don't much give a d_mn either. They'll realize these things , but all too often too late to correct their behavior to have a meaningful, productive life. I've been thru this with a member of my immediate family and it took years to get things straight. Luckily, We're still all together , with a bright outlook for the future. I can only see things getting worse. I'm glad my daughter is starting college in a school, I feel and hope will be spared of
these tragic happenings. Like I have said in a previous post. You have to look out for you and yours cause no one else is gonna do it for you. Honesty with your kids is the key. My daughter has done alot of things that I could have rung her neck for, but she doesn't use drugs, goes to work everyday, and I'm proud to say she's mine and she knows it. We **** heads alot, cause she's as stubborn as I am and won't give an inch. But we've learned to cope with that side of our personalities.
No relationship is perfect but I wish these distured troubled kids could find an anchor somewhere and feel that their lives were worth living. What a waste of humanity but that's the product of our society and we are the ones having to deal with it whether we like it or not.

the pickel

[jad1097]

I agree with both AQR8 and pickel. I remember those days of getting my hand smacked with a ruler for acting out in class,paddling etc..
My family could understad what you are talking about pickel because I was the same way as your family member. At the age of 16 I discovered freebase (crack as it is now called) and it took me and my family on a long painfull ride. Well three years long. It ended when the FT. Ladurdale PD got there hands on me. My first laywer said I was looking at 20+ years and I said "YOUR FIRED"!
Someone must have been looking out for me cause I just got two years house arrest.And it cost a hell of allot of money to get that.
I also have to take a pill a day for the rest of my life due to drugs.In some ways I wish I did not have any children cause of what goes on now.But most of it was there when I grew up.I was carrying a 9mm when I was 16 but now they have 9 year olds doing that.
I appoligize for the long posts this is just a bad subject for me. Because I just see it getting worse. ANd it is everywere now not just in the big cities like were I grew up. Its even here in Tennesse.

[medo]

Why put blame on children. They are usually bad replica of their parents and society.

[jokostel]

i think parents oughta bring out a can of whoop-***** on kids who misbehave... it worked a long time ago.... back when teacher gave kids smackdowns for misbehaving in class.. did you see kids bringing guns n etc things with intent to kill at school then NO!!!


they knew they couldn't get by with it...
nowaydays i hate to say it but i think this generation after myne is gonna be undiseplined(spelling...???) and i think parents should take action .....the dang kid misbehaves, give em what they need to be kept in a straight n narrow path.....


its gonna hafta be done so these kids know their parents are the bosses NOT them.


jokostel
(its my .02c)




[This message has been edited by jokostel (edited 12-15-1999).]

[narayan]

rl, it is not a matter of kids being pushed too far that makes them kill. for how long has this problem existed? about 2 years. remember when 2 people could get into a fight and one would win and one would lose and that was that? nowadays the one that loses goes and thinks he needs to get even. we need to establish pride in our children. pride of our country (this is tough right now in our current state of the union). we need strong leaders who will make a clear line between wrong and right. remember when everyone wanted to grow up to be president? not any more. it wasn't that long ago. this affects the kids and the slacker parents. its not just the kids. this is not meant to be a political statement, rather what is truth. we will get over this, as a nation we are all affected and one day our pride will return.

[CMonster]

Ahhhh.. the whole problem started with Doom....

[Wiz]

school violence has actually gone down over the years, and i have heard stories from friends of the family who grew up in major cities have dealt with shootings when they were young. the problem now is copycat murders. publicize the shootings, and reap more shootings

[U-96]

Ain't that the truth.
They just closed down Columbine for 48 hours because some lamer made threats on a chat board. Check out the regular news sites for details...

U-96

[bdunn]

Schools need the involvement of the parents to do better. I can't speak for Catholic Schools but my kids go to a Jewish Day school, as did we once upon a time, we as parents are involved. And I think it is a good school but thats because parents are involved.

It is scary with the authorities can do I do know 2 people who had their kids taken away for stupid things but tats another story.

I wouldn't use the public schools but thats because I feel that the kids education is important and they need more than we or the local public school can give them.

[The Phuz]

Proverbs 13:24 "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes." AND
Proberbs 22:15 "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."
The lack of our society to continue following these scriptures concerning discipline is showing up in horrendous fashion. Even the animal kingdom disciplines their young. And because of that they're young are the better, wiser, and can provide for themselves when it's their turn to leave the nest. We've got to turn this thing around. Some people we just shouldn't be listening to. We've gotten to a point in this country that we don't want to even punish/discipline criminals. And that is coming from the same folks that have gotten laws passed to keep us from disciplining (tough loving) our children. I am a teacher by profession. I watched in horror as one of my former students who did not want to do his homework as his father instructed him simply got up, went up stairs, got his father's gun and shot his father in the head...killing him instantly. The schools and society had taught this child that his parents couldn't make him do anything that he didn't want to do...and, if they tried to discipline him he could have them locked up. This happened 10 years ago. It isn't surprising to see the Columbine's and other horrendous situations across our country. How tragic. "FOOLS dispise wisdom and instruction". Are we as a country dispising "wisdom" and "instruction". Maybe we need to hire/elect some lions, tigers and bears (oh, my)to restore discipline to our children.

[U-96]

There's no need to quote the Bible on this matter, Phuz, because those proverbs express the feelings and responsibilities of many cultures. The "animal discipline" comment is in my view, a very accurate one. I was a very mischievous child, always blaming my little brother when I got caught for doing dumb things. Snapping my mum's old wooden school ruler (ca.1955) and putting glass beads in the bread sauce for Xmas 1979 both got me a damned good hiding from my dad.
I respect and love my parents, and in retrospect, they always did have my best interests at heart, despite my teenage protestations at everything being so unfair!
Truth be told, I never did those things again. Also, despite popular theories, I am not a violent person because of it, and am a great believer in defusing situations rather than inflaming them. I am quite prepared to let things fly over my head - I appreciate that there are far more important things to worry about.
That ability to "let things go" seems to be missing these days, whether it's uptown LA gangs, or outside a pub in Oxford on a Saturday night, or at a Spanish football match.
I think this revenge culture *is* a product of the video culture of the 80s. Arnie's "I'll be back" just about sums it up. But this cultural landscape originates in the moral wasteland created by the Reagan/Thatcher years. Both leaders will go down in history as great leaders of their respective countries, and justifiably so, but what price did society pay at the expense of the "me! me! me!" culture that they encouraged?

U-96

[Dominus]

I went to primary school in a catholic school where if you sneezed the wrong way the teacher would beat you senseless.

I then moved to a larger town, and in the 3 years I have been attending it's high school, there have been close to 30 bomb threats, several cases of ammunution found in the school, and on 2 separate occasions, actual explosives have been found within the building.

Also, during school reforms, 2 schools that have been rivals for close to 50 years were joined together in a campus system. Because of the rival hockey teams, there have been numerous fights, as well as full scale brawls.

Thankfully, over time the lines between the 2 separate schools blurred, and the teams lost their animosity towards one another.

This said, I believe that I have a pretty good grasp on school violence.

During the aftermath of Columbine (which is ongoing to this day) I am feared and avoided like death itself. I am a 6", 220 lbs computer geek with a shaven head. Though I am as gentle and peaceful as people go, and I harbour no bad feelings toward anyone, the average person in my school believes that I am about to commit some sort of massacre.

Recently, I was reading my schedule while walking down the hallway to a class. I rounded a corner and bumped into a girl about 1/3 my size, spilling the books and papers that she was carrying. She looked at me with such a look of dread and overwhelming fear that I don't believe that I'll ever forget it. I politely apolgized and helped collect her books, but she barely mumbled in response, such was the depth of her terror.

Needless to say, this air of fear around me, and other geeks in my school is something that I do not enjoy.

The media, and frightened parents have jumped to so many conclusions, and have put such an air of fear around schools across the nation that I don't think anyone will feel at ease in a school ever again. And that is definately not a means to solve this problem. People can't live in fear of another Columbine, because the animosity of expecting one may actually catalize it instead of averting it.

If people actually learned anything fron this tragedy, then they would simply realize that the old addage about the golden rule is one of the solutions to this epidemic. If people were friendlier, and more considerate to the feelings of others, then monsters such as Klebold and Harris would never have been bred.

Sadly though, those who are accepted into the popular culture of the high school would seem to rather leaving those whom are different out of their lives, and picking up the pieces after every Columbine, than they would embrace us and have no fear in school at all.


(maybe that lacked the structure that I would have wanted in a comment, but it's the best I could do without writing an essay on the subject, of which I have done many.)



[This message has been edited by Dominus (edited 12-16-1999).]

[AQR8]

Dominus, I think you stated it well and make some very valid points. I too am the product of a parochial school (not Catholic)through the eigth grade. As imagined it was structured, disciplined and good study habits. Then I was dropped into the public system at just the wrong time in life. I thougt I was on another planet. My life really took a turn, one I wish could have been avoided.

I am just thankful I had the structure at home, although I sure didn't like it at the time. Your point about acceptance from peers and those around you is well taken and clearly a key point in some situations. I also agree with the the many writers about the need for discipline and the effects resulting from it's absence.

U-96 I do agree that the "video culture of the 80's" has something to do with it. It's a part of the puzzle, a piece that makes up the individual. Everyone is value programed through time, circumstance and location. This becomes a basis through which they filter their experiences and view life.

Hopefully the next century will see an awakened social structure that has become more enlightened and once again returns to the basics. A strong family structure that is nurturing and supportive. A return to their belief structure (whatever they call their god). This would certainly be a good start, much of the rest would become self evident.

[Dominus]

One note I should make, AQR8, is that I am an Atheist, and the Catholic school I went to *was* a public school. Until the afore mentioned school reforms, all schools in my province were run by the church. Each denomination had it's own school, which caused endless problems and hatred between schools.

The reforms have removed all church control of schools, and we are better off because of it.

[brandon184]

I am 13 going on 14.. I live in a small town in Canada. Even with all of the laws, if I do something wrong, and get in trouble at school, I know I'll get my *** kicked by my elders. (My older brother, my dad) Because of this, I know better than to do something like that... I was brought up KNOWING the consequences. I get better grades and am a better student because of that.

There are kids I know who are in my school who are the completely opposite of me. They get low marks and are troublesome kids. Their parents don't beat them, and think they are *PERFECT* little angels. If the school phones, the teacher doesn't know what he/she is talking about. If another parent calls to tell them that their kid was harassing theirs, THAT parent and their kids have no idea what they are talking about. The ways these kids were brought up, if their parents DID beat on 'em, they'd be running to social services in an instant.

The way their parents bring them up makes ALL of the difference in the world. I think laws about parents not laying a hand on their kids are completely USELESS. By making these laws, they are damaging the future.

These kids I know, will not grow up to be normal adults, unless their parents have a personality change. I VERY much agree with what pickel said about how they don't care if they get in trouble.

WOW.. A detention. If the schools and governments think these will change their ways, then they are crazy. When the kids go home, their parents don't do anything, because they think that whatever reason they got this punishment for was wrong, and their kid did not do what he/she was accused of doing.

Kids now LOOK FORWARD to detentions! I'll come to school the next day and I'll hear someone talking about how fun detention was yesterday, since the teacher was out of the room for half of the time.

Just my opinion.

[This message has been edited by brandon184 (edited 12-16-1999).]

[Zacko10000]

Mind me if I say so but, what the hell is going on in the minds of kids today? I don't get it, why would they go on a shooting spree? Are the pressures of our 24 hour/7 days a week society getting to them, and breaking them up? Is the social order that develops in school the problem? Are guns the culprit? Is the media? Many questions...

[U-96]

Dominus, you sound so much like my own brother! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
He's 3 years younger than me, and about 12" taller. He shaved his head, became a vegetarian, tee-totaller and non-smoker and went out with an Indian girl (i.e. inter-racial relationship) for three years. He has been a computer geek since age 9 and blows me away with his programming skills (he does ADA and assembler for fun).
I stopped picking on him when he grew bigger than me and took up kick-boxing and Wing Chun three times a week.

U-96

[Dominus]

Heh, yep.

1.) 6 foot
2.) 220lbs
3.) Shaven Head
4.) Hawaiin Shirts
5.) Combat Boots
6.) Straight Edge
7.) Computer Nerd

If I were vegan, I'd be the ultimate freak!

Zacko10000, As for whats going on in our minds today, that could fill volumes. As for why all the violence, I'd say the social classes, the cliques, and lots of sexual frustration.

But I'm no expert on violence, as I don't commit any.

[This message has been edited by Dominus (edited 12-16-1999).]

[The Phuz]

U-96, I always quote the Bible. Most of what I say is Bibliocentric. Whether another culture or people share the same understanding/wisdom only accentuate it's greatness. I find it very disturbing in this country that most people are tolerant of other views but, when someone quotes the Bible people want them to stop it. I listened in sadness last night to a program that was kind of "Crossfire"ish about George W. Bush's response to "Who was the most influential person in his life?" The panelist were outraged that Bush responded with Jesus Christ. I do find it indeed disturbing that the panelists were outraged or even bothered by his response. Do you see what I'm getting at? One panelist did remark that "If Bush had named the Dali Lama, Budha, or someone other than Jesus Christ, no one in the media would have said a word or certainly would not have been outraged/bothered by his response. We all are rooted in something...for some it is Rap music, for some it's the utterances of Charles Manson, and yet for many others it's something else. If you wanted to, you could have quoted Satan in your post and I would have read it anyway. I wouldn't have bothered to tell you there was no need to quote Satan. I could feel that way personally, but in all honesty, that is your right to do so. My final thought concerning the kids, we the "adults" are their biggest problem. Kids aren't making the laws, rules, or policies. We adults are. And we're abandoning them for (what the Ferengi love)profit. And they are acting out accordingly. If we adults would get our priorities straight, the kids will follow.

[AuraEdge]

Niether of my parents have every slapped or beat me and Im very thankful for that. I dont believe that that is a right way to raise a kid. Consequences shoudlnt be the main reason that someone shouldnt do something bad.
People shouldnt do things because they are unethical or immoral. There is no personality or character built without morals. One day they will do something which they know they will not be caught for. (say they are in the woods with thier friends and someone asks em if they want a drag of pot or something). Im sure I wouldnt be caught with such a thing but I still wouldnt do it because I dont want to corrupt my body like that.

When preventing kids to do bad things, you have to remember that you are RAISING them to become responsible and ethical adults, not someone whos straightedge because he or shes scared of the penal system. It just doesnt come to me as raising children right.

[AQR8]

Discipline in our home has seldome involved something physical like slapping or a whipping. Some folks do go to far with that and kids can then get on the straight edge for fear of the penalty. In the long run that often backfires and can cause one to become rebellious.

It's said that character is what you do when there is no one there to observe your actions. RAISING our children is an awesome responsibility and requires time, careful thought and love.

[Target]

I think that one of the major reasons we see so many outbursts and outrageous acts today is because of one thing......A LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY! This bullsh*t mindset of "Politically Correct" thinking has brainwashed an entire society, and there are far too many parents, leaders, and lawmakers who have bought into it hook-line-& sinker! I'm not talking about the PC mindset for example, where we now call those of low IQ "mentally handi-capped" instead of retarded. That type of PC thinking is simply a courtesy that is perfectly acceptable and the moral thing to do. But this other extreme, the one that refuses to punish or discipline those who behave outside of societal norms, and is perfectly willing to provide an excuse for unacceptable behavior, makes me sick.

There are those after all who would have us believe, "its not little Johnny's fault that he robbed a convenience store, or shot up his school, he has attention deficit disorder and was picked on (or some other lame excuse).

Is it any wonder that we don't have more of these types of problems? What we have been teaching our children, and everyone else in society for the last 15 years, is that you can basically do whatever you want and will not have to face the consequences if you have a good enough excuse.

Denial is a wonderful thing......its easy for parents and leaders to hide behind, and absolves them of the guilt for their own failures to take accountability. Its too bad that the rest of us end up paying the price for them!

[outgolfing]

Went to a seminar about the California Juvenile Court System and learned some interesting things. For example, the precentage of violent crimes commited by juveniles has stayed relativly constant over the last ten or more years. What this means is that violent are no more common among children now than in the last few years. The only difference is where and how these crimes are commited. So whats the problem? Why is there such an increase in incidents involving children? Well my theory lies mainly in the media. Every since Colombine, every little incident, that would not of recieved much attention, is now making headlines. These crimes in schools are becoming just a different outlet for violent children, broadly publicized by the media. What better way can you think of for a taunted, teased and picked on child with low self-esteem to get attention. The ten O'clock.
In the end, hopefully this trend will grow tired, because it makes me sick to read about it, and remember you still have to worry about your child safety getting to school than at school. Just a theory.

[bigslammer]

Yes I used to think it was all about parents and the things they instilled in their children. but parents really help out in the basic codes of conduct such as stealing, honesty, honor etc. but killing people? no I don't care how you are raised anyone with commen sense just does not perform such actions. It doesn't matter if people were raised by their parents and told to kill. it is in everybody's conscience that killing someone(except possibly for self defense) is a horrendous action. No Excuses. so ultimately actions of this magnitude are up to the individuals and no one else. but their seems to be a lot more punk kids, they just seem to be getting worse and worse. funny thing is that I've noticed this from high school kids and I graduated from HS just 3.5 years ago. if I notice a difference then people from other generations must be really annoyed with the actions of kids today vs. their generation.

[AuraEdge]

Forget statistics and what happened in the past
Prevention is what needs to be done.
I really dont know how to react to this, because I dont know what goes through these kids mines, and why I would never fathom to do such a thing myself, yet they do it like its no big deal.
BTW, pickel, I know about when they usta belt kids like that..I hear it all the time from my older friend. That 'belting' wasnt a good system, and either is the present catholic school system.

The catholic school system tends to push beliefs against you more than trying to teach u morals.

Heres a little update on teh coke story...One of the girls involved (actually the possesser of the cocaine) may not get expelled because she ratted out about 20 girls (most of which have never even done coke in thier lives)

That is a STUPID STUPID thing for my school to do. And im sure the only thing the principal cares about is hiding the story so that our enrollment doesnt go down from our school having a bad rep.

I respect those that are catholic, but the school should try and teach morals instead of trying to push a religion against you. (this, among other things, has turned me off to catholism, I am now a born again Christain)

Public schools can very well teach morals without going into religion to keep the seperation between church and state...And if its never too young to go and shoot someone, its never to o young to teach children morals.

As long as children are taught good morals early, they wont turn to violence to solve problems. Any partially strong person can resist or ignore the taunts of the others who make fun of them, etc. If you dont know how to deal with such a situation, violence and other things happen, things that by all means in my opinion can (and must be) be avoided.

The parents and teachers bring up a child, and teach them things, everyone is accountable for thier own actions. If the parents and teachers dont form any kind of pedestal for the kinds, how are the kids going to stand up for themselves and become strong individuals?

And a thing on Doom and quake and games like that. Any child who has a fragile mind can be corrupted and get ideas from these games. I usually play some kind of first person shooter every day. Ive been playing video and computer games with guns since I was..5? ...well Im not sure but you all remember duckhunt? http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif. Other games I used to play, and enjoy to this day are Doom/Quake games, Time crisis, Virtua Cop, Resident evil, and Half-Life.

These games alone do not cause for violence, although I will not discount them as possible agents for ideas for these broken children to let out anger.

It all starts with teaching morals, and continued by letting children become people with thier own thoughts and actions.

btw, I enjoy ranting on this board because there are many mature indivuduals with which have thought thru answers to issues. Rant on guys!

/rant http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[welsh wizard]

Well Jad1097 said it right, so did pickel and AQR8, discipline in schools and at home has gone to H***, why to many liberal wets out there, it's all over the world, I was talking with this subject with my daughter yesterday, the kids are brain washed at school that you can't smack them or discepline them as you are brakeing the law if you do so, It's time we installed some old time values, doesn't the Bible say "spare the rod and spoil the child"
I rememeber the schools I went to,
First one was a Church of England school, if you did wrong you got the slipper,( we behaved)second one was a Convent, misbehaved got the strap, (we behaved) third one was a Church of Wales school, if you saw any one get the cane there once that was enough ( man you behaved) then I went to another school the equive of high school no cane, man when I left there I was into the Bike scene and only getting married to my first wife put me right.
So if you just examine the way we have become it more often or not comes back down to lack of discipline, this is something we learn, we are not born with it.
every one goes through the rebelious teens, one way or another, something has to be there to keep us in check. and it's not saying to Jonney there, there, thats naughty, don't do it again, we have to teach that for every action there is a consequence.
WW

[This message has been edited by welsh wizard (edited 12-16-1999).]

[Banti]

How many here were picked on when they were younger? I'm not trying to be a sob story, but I didn't make any real friends until I went off to college (of course, I went to GA Tech... we all are a little on the nerdy side). I was picked on, beat up (on occasion), and verbally assulted throughout my schooling. The whole time I did not feel the urge to kill, mame or dismember. I knew that they were idiots then, and they are still idiots today. I know sit smuggy in my ergo chair knowing that my salary as a Software Development Engineer is more than they will every make at their crappy jobs.
These kids today do need to be helped. My parents always let me know that I was somebody, and that I mattered. Therefore, I did not feel the need to blow someone away to prove how important I was. I could rant on about this for hours.

Banti

[Dominus]

I disagree with BigSlammer. Conscience is not hard-wired from birth. The only thing hard-wired is an instinct for survival.

The thing that makes us great as humans is the fact that over time we learned that it is better not to kill. We then passed this down to our descendants via religion, although religion is not required to have morals.

[UncaDanno]

I tend to agree with U-96. Keep the tub o' Booty Whup handy. We have fallen into the feel-good rut of "Celebrate the Child", "the Child is King", etc. And we have taught the young 'uns the wrong thing! What they have learned is: "I can do no wrong." "No matter what I do, I get praised." They have no inkling of internalization of the notion of right-vs-wrong. Furthermore, we have taught them, through the hands-off policy, that even if they do wrong, there are no repercussions. For them, at least. Usually, the parents go to bat for the darling offspring and bear the brunt of paying damages and accepting the blame for the kids' behavior.

What I have seen, through experience, is that the sooner a child learns that there are not-too-nice, even painful, repercussions for misbehavior, the sooner the child learns that life is much more comfy if that little nose is kept clean.


Another thing that helps promulgate the violent behavior: Me-tooism and vying for celebrity status (back to "Celebrate the Child"). Years ago, if a kid committed a crime, the kid's identity and every thing else about the case was kept hush-hush. Supposedly to "protect the child and its family."
A secondary, and probably more powerful, result of this policy was that the child in question GOT NO PUBLICITY!!!
The kid was allowed to steep in his/her own little pool of shame (back when kids new what shame was!) and usually resolved never ever to do such a thing again.
Not now. We celebrate the violent ones. So, what's a kid to do? "Hey, I'm not the center of the entire world's attention. I know! I'll off a bunch of other people and, live or die, I'll be world-famous!!!"


Oh, and you think violent kids don't get all-too-much attention?
Just look how long this thread is!

[Target]

Right on the money UncaDanno

[medo]

Hi,
I am not from USA, but violence in school is not only problem in USA, maybe is just more widespread in your country.
I see that thing like pure consequence of couple things and among them: devolution of family, money culture and consumer society and intake of violence trough different media.

[brandon184]

If the kids don't do anything wrong, they don't get a hand layed on them! If you have to be constantly disiplining your child, than there is a problem, and you need to fix it.

One reason kids are doing things like this today, are pressures in their lives. If anyone thinks that their life 20 years ago, was just as stressful as today's kids, they are down right CRAZY! Kids today are under so much pressure, because their extra-curricular activites are becoming more intense meaning they are more important. They are under a *LOT* of pressure to get good grades, and that is not NEARLY as easy as it was even 10 years ago.

My homeroom teacher who is young (in his late 20's) even says he can't believe how less stressful school/life was for him, than it is in today's world.

[codybear]

this is what you will get from a morally bankrupt society that has lost its value system along with them...if you will look at the trend you will see that it began when moms started working outside the home more and more and kids come home to an empty house and had to fend for themselves. I've spent many hours at my 7 yr olds school helping out and it scares me how many parents take NO part in their childrens education. One little boy that sat next to my daughter had the worse desk in class and one day I helped him put things in order. In going through his bookbag I saw homework from the beginning of the year and I ask him why his mom or dad did not make sure he cleaned it out or signed his work...his response was that they have never ask him about his work or even looked in his bookbag and when he has said anything to then they are always too busy so he just stopped trying...ya'll can point fingers wherever you want to but it all comes down to the parents..I dont have help with my daughter and sure dont have all the answers either but I will stay involved and keep the lines of communication open and teach her right from wrong and most of all I WILL BE THERE FOR HER!!....She knows she is loved and respected and a very special person...If ya cant keep it in your pants then take the responsibility with the pleasure..or if ya cant keep um closed ....whatever your gender

that little boy will look for acceptance some where down the road and for him it will not matter much from who, and when he gets it he will do most anything to keep it..

[AQR8]

uncaDanno - I'm in agreement with most of what you said in the context in which it was presented. I feel discipline is fundamental and the child and circumstances should dicatate what is appropriate. The parents need to be responsible enough to determine what is appropriate. It needs to be in balance.

I share your view on the excessive publicity. The length of the thread reflects the complexity of the issue and the passionate feelings of the group.

[jeana]

Stickin' in my oar again...

Agree with many of the things said above, though I personally received little physical punishment (one slap on the hands and a smack on the shins with a ruler in all my life but I don't forget them because it hurt my parents so to give them) and grew up fine.
It's true that you need to draw the line at small things like staying out past nine or being rude, so that the thought of taking drugs or fighting becomes an inconceivable crime in the mind of the child.

But here's an addition...

The "teenager" is one of the worst inventions of the twentieth century, I think... it's a bunch of young people with nothing worthwhile to do, who feel that their actions affect nobody but themselves or don't care if they do.

Beyond personal accountability, it seems to me that young people don't have enough responsibilities or understanding of all the meanings of "love". It seems to me that a person who feels needed doesn't throw away life or opportunities.

Perhaps if some kids felt that their hard work was needed to put food on the table at home, to provide a good example or education to younger siblings, or to care for a sick person, they wouldn't waste so much time on picking on others for their differences or planning revenges. But without worthwhile work to do or nothing to work for, they turn to spite and mischief.

--Jeana

[brandon184]

Jeana,

I agree with you.

But it is still NOT the kids/teenagers fault. Everything that has to do with kids today ALL comes to the parents! There is nothing more to it than that.

These kids just did not decide one day they are going to start a new generation like this, it is how they raised. The way you are is nothing but how you are raised.

[jeana]

By saying that teenagers ought to be given more responsibility, I don't mean to blame them! All I'm saying is that teenagers are caught in this time where they're suddenly not as cute as they used to be, so people don't smile at them or indulge them in the old way, and yet they are thought to lack the training and experience to be allowed real responsibilities or to lead their own lives. Thus they feel unloved and unwanted.

They have begun to possess their full physical and mental strength, and yet they may not understand where their schoolwork is important or relevant. At home, many find themselves in positions of subversion or defiance, rather than support, simply because their families do not show the _need_ for them to be strong and reliable... or because they were not been shown as children how to love, and how to be dependable.

It's the duty of the family, school, and adult community to teach children responsibility and consideration at an early age, and to follow through with this training as the kids transition into adults.

[Brangwen]

Parental involvement in kids lives. Good moral / religious (spiritual, if you prefer) upbringing. I believe the Jews do a fine job with teaching the Torah and so on. Fine phylosophy teaching everyone to focus on real basic issues such as the meaning of life; what goal(s)one wants out to reach in life; how to accomplish that goal, etc. Good stuff. But family is probably the most important. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[Todd Beck]

I work in my county's Superior Court, and while the percentage of violent crime might be staying relatively stable, the amount of property and drug crime HAS risen a good deal the last few years, and the rate of recidivism has risen CONSIDERABLY.

From the vantage point I have from within the criminal justice system, I've seen that almost without exception the one common factor that juvenile deliquents have is, SURPRISE, a dysfunctional family life, in one form or another. This holds true WITHOUT regard for family income level or level of education.

Sure, at some point, the kids are responsible for their behavior and have to be held accountable for it. But kids are wonderfully honest reflections of what they've been taught, and kids from families that are loving and supportive are usually well adjusted and do not break the law.