Mars Polar Lander

[socalgal]

What another devastating blow for JPL here in Pasadena, CA and for the NASA Mars Exploration Program.

The scientists, engineers, and others who worked so hard for so many years... I can't help but feel for them and the disappointment they must be going through.

Looking forward to 2001. Never give up, guys and gals at JPL and NASA.

[welsh wizard]

Hi Socalgal, not heard the news, whats happened, has it crashed or is it just still not com with nasa.
WW
PS if you heard it on the net please post a link

[Apostle 83]

Socalgal,
While the road of failure is painful, and best avoided, sometimes it does better humantity. The tragedies in space our sounctry has seen have always had fuller and riper fruits on an individual basis than safe ones, as far as identifying problems.

Mars, you got our probe, dare ya to come AND TRY TO GET AN APOSTLE! MWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH!

[Pat Kennedy]

That's how many they lost? Think this is going to be another metric-to-english problem?

[Mntsnow]

I think that it is lost for good! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif
You know they will have a long uphill battle to get money and support to further along their research and development!

Mntsnow

IMHO, Marvin the Martian has captured both probes and is currently tweaking them to his configuration and will then send them back to spy on us! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[socalgal]

For background and some current news:

http://marslander.jpl.nasa.gov/

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/reports/mars/lat_mars991207.htm

It just saddens me. I think space exploration is a vital and important endeavor, not only for the country's pride when successful but for clues about the origins of the universe and possibly life that may exist out there, not to mention the resources that may be found.

I hope that funds are not further cut (likely) for our space exploration programs. On the selfish side, I get hopeful and excited about the realms of possibilities of what these missions could accomplish.

[This message has been edited by socalgal (edited 12-07-1999).]

[CMonster]

Socalafragilisticgal,

Failure? What failure? The decoy of the phoney mars polar lander allowed us - er.. I mean them, to use the resources to put yet another stealth satelite in orbit... they are up there ..watching...

This most recent one can put out enough focused EMI to kill all ground communications equipment in an area the size of say "CUBA."

[socalgal]

I think I have met my paranoid match with CMonster and yet he's pulling ahead of me.

[SysOpt]

Personally, I think it landed on some boulder and overturned, burned up in the atmosphere, or the decelerating thrusters failed to fire (or misfired). In any case, it's a major loss if it is lost forever. I was watching some of the NASA TV broadcasts, hoping to here some news of a signal, but alas.

Hopefully this won't set back our space exploration programs to the degree that the Challenger accident, if a comparison can be made respectfully to those who lost their lives, set back our manned space program.

Scott

[Pat Kennedy]

CMonster and Socalgal... you are both off.

The probe really eneded up sending supplies to the US base on the dark side of the moon, duh.

OK that's the best I can do on the conspiracy theory side.

Pat

[chipbgt]

The biggest dissapointment is that it was out there at all.....call me what you will, but that 150 million we just "goofed" on could of had a lot better uses here on earth.......... but thats just my opinion http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[SysOpt]

$150M may seem like a lot to most folks, but to companies, businesses, and the govt., it isn't that much. It's important that we learn more about other worlds so we can understand more about our own.

[welsh wizard]

Three poss. versions.
They are going to arrest BG for windows failure, op sys crash before landing http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif
The martians have it and are fixing Windows os before sending it back, just to to show us how primative we still are, after all imagine what any alien would think of our world if they took Win 98 SE as an example of our tech advancement. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif
There was a screw up sim to Hubble http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif
WW

[scotter]

it was the monolith that stoped it. in 2010 we will have a new star in our solar system the monlith's are coming http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[U-96]

I'm with Scott on this one, all the NASA simulations seem to show the thing landing on a surface like Acapulco beach.
Hitting a rock and ending up with it's antennae buried in the dust is quite realistic, assuming of course that the parachute opened.
Funny thing is, why can Tyco build kid's RC cars that always land the right way up, but NASA can't do it with $150M?
I think they should try for a blunderbuss approach - fire an old MIRV at Mars, packed with dozens of small, simple probes that just do one task. It seems a lot more sensible that putting all your eggs in one basket.
However, I think I'm correct in saying that this mission was on route before the Mars Orbiter burned up, so there may be a real posibility that the metric/imperial cock-up was replicated on this project. I just want to know which scientist these days doesn't work in SI units?

U-96

PS If there is life on Mars, chances are that we put it there with all the **** stuck on probes we've been crashing into the surface for the last 30 years. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
Not that Mars is real of course, it's a hangar in New Mexico.

[bkehoe]

Why culdn't they just send a modified Pathfinder. That was an experiment hat went very well. The air bag system means that it could only land the right way up. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

And my name was on he CD in the Polar Lander. Boohooo. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif

Brendan.

[alpha]

My cousins' names are in that thing! LOOOOOSSSERRS!!! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif (ONly KiddINg)
aLpHA

[U-96]

Red sky, red dirt
Son: "Hey pa, lookee what crashed in tha greenhouse and gone scared tha cattle!"
Pa [adjusting eye-stalk]: "Hell boy, that's the second time this month! How many times must ah tell you not to point the microwave plasma transcender towards Terra?"
Son: "But Pa, it weren't my fault! Wait, this looks like a data device..." [hands shiny disc to Pa.
Pa [slotting disc into data slot on head]: "Go get the sheriff to round up a posse, we know the b*stards what did this, and we know where they live!"

U-96

[M1pilot]

I don't know....I was involved in aircraft flight testing for over twenty years and I saw my fair share of failures. The only thing you can do from it is learn and try to improve the concept. 150 million really is peanuts for a project of this magnitude. The side benefits of the new technologies that get developed usually more than make up for the costs involved. My hat's off to these people, and I hope that they do not consider giving up.

-M1pilot

[SysOpt]

Don't worry bkehoe, your name made it to Mars, it just might be on a melted or frozen CD at this point http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif.

I heard that the reason this project didn't use the airbags was because the lander was designed prior to the Pathfinder project.. Go figure.

[This message has been edited by SysOpt (edited 12-08-1999).]

[Zotzmein]

I personally believe that the majority of the entire Mars mission is an elaborate ruse. The lion shares of the funds are being diverted to Communist China to help them flood American markets with inexpensive products: one step in their master plan to enslave the whole of the global populace.

All those who are receiving Christmas cards from me this year will find a copy of the following letter.

---------------------------------------------
Dear Family and Friends,

Christmas is about the birth of Christ, giving and sharing, yet there are those in this world who know neither of Christ or the joys of Christmas.

These unfortunate souls live in a nation where freedom and liberty are dead and tyranny and slavery reign supreme. Sadly, many Americans act daily to foster the continuation of this evil.

*THE TRUTH*

All those who purchase goods manufactured in communist China contribute to the survival of the current political regime of enslavement, oppression and violence.

Influxes of monies into communist China will not benefit its citizens but help to fund communist China’s growing military machine and its sphere of influence around the globe.

The United States of America’s growing dependency on inexpensive items produced in communist China provides its government with unparalleled access to the economy of it’s principal adversary and therein provides communist China with potential power over the political and financial stability of the primary guardian of the free world.

READ THE LABEL – SAY NO TO MADE IN CHINA!

Remember there is no Christmas in China; the governing body of the Peoples Republic of China has abolished God and denied the existence of Christ.


God Bless!
---------------------------------------------

Please feel free to cut and paste this article; I encourage you to send into to your friends and love ones. It’s important that we think and thereby act for those less fortunate during this time of season.

I believe that reaching for the stars is of vital importance for both the United States and the peoples of this small planet.

Regards to All,

Zotz Mein


[This message has been edited by Zotzmein (edited 12-08-1999).]

[bdunn]

We have to tell the little green men to stop stealing our probes and that we are coming in peace on a scientific exploration mission.

Remind them that we have the capability to send something with a nuclear warhead but are more interested in free trade

[pickel]

Welch Wizard: as we said in the 60's ......
Right On, Right On, Right On

Zotz's: You couldn't be more correct

I believe the monetary figure disclosed to the press is pure B.S. That was probably the
pizza and callgirl money, the rest for the phony film of the event. We need to take care of the problems here as well as explore other endeavors. How many starving and underclothed people, who through no fault of their own are at odds with the world, could have been given a helping hand. I, myself, in my life have been on the receiving end when things were hard, so I know. But there's no end in sight for the amount of waste that goes on and there's not much anyone of us can do about it. The days of accountability are gone. Read the papers and see how our congress spent our money with all the last minute , tack em on, bills and projects no one in their right mind would have voted for if they had time to read them.A really sorry
affair to say the least.Where will it all end?????

the pickel

[MrEd]

I was looking through a Popular Science magazine the other day, and there are 3 Plasma engines being worked on as I type. Some smart guy(s) has figured a way to create a plasma drive, and it's supposedly 10-20 times more efficient than the engines used now. They hope to have one installed and operational by 2005, and send a human crew to the red planet. (with thier current track record, I don't think I want to volunteer for that first voyage...)

-MrEd
http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[Pat Kennedy]

I'd do it.

[chipbgt]

Your right Scott, 150 million is a lot of money to us folks....I just think it coudl be spread out better than on one space probe.........that we lose. but I dont buy that bunk about going to other planets to learn about ours.....If I wanna learn about IMB Computers I wouldnt go to Apple comuters http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif I Know thats simplifying it but hey, thats me. But im nto trying to start anything

[yo2tup]

it's a conspiracy! NASA knows what they'r doing, they're just covering it up. There's something on Mars that they don't want the public to see!

**** you lockness monster!!!

[welsh wizard]

Yes I agree we have starving millions, but the one advantage we have all overlooked with going to outer space is, by the turn of the 22 cent, are we going to be able to feed the world population anywhere in this world,(thats of course if we haven't blow the d**n planet up)the one big hope is that we find a way of utilise space to either feed us here or colonise other worlds to take the strain off this one, think about it some went to the Americas to escape persecution others wanted more space to live in as free people.
Wasn't it Uncle Sam that sead give me your poor your starving ect. now you have quoters as your space is dwindling.
We need to feed this world even if we have to sacrifice now to do it.
WW

[chipbgt]

we will have blown each other up by the 22nd century. I give us about 70 more years, and then the trouble begins.

[SysOpt]

I tend to agree, but where would we be without an economy of some sort? It seems to me that it would be a chaotic existance. There are too many bad apples in this world to live in the level of harmony that you describe. Maybe when our technology progresses to that of energy to matter conversion (i.e.- replicators like those on Star Trek), if ever, and we develop vast renewable energy sources, it would make more sense.

[welsh wizard]

The only way we will progress to the Starship level, is if we invest in our future now, then we will be able to feed the world, some sacrifice now for the benefit of future gens,
WW

[Dave_H]

My dad used to like to say
"Back to the old drawing board"
(A little pre-computer humor)

[cyphen]

Well, we just learn from our mistakes. Next time instead of sending a Mars Probe, NASA will send a Ford Probe. It's airbags always deploy!

On the serious side of things, though, i'm very concerned about the shortsightedness of our elected officials. These prominent figureheads generally only know 1 thing: how to get re-elected. Ok, that's a pessimistic view, but sadly, i think it's the norm.

I believe extraterrestrial exploration (be it intra or extrasolar, radio astronomy, 0G metallurgy, whatever) is essential to the human condition. Throughout history, the pusuit of science and the expansion of knowledge has often been balked at - usually with cries going to the homeless or the underpriveleged. While i'm not insensitive to the subject, i don't think that the human race should be brought to a scientific standstill until every human has had a decent meal. Where would we be if every questionable scientific endeavor was abandoned in history? Let's put it in terms of this particular BBS: how practical is a machine that takes up 3 rooms, weighs 10 tons, cost millions of dollars, and can only add simple numbers? If all we do is sustain our existence and that of others, then what is the purpose of even living?

I hope my point isn't belaboured. In my personal philosophy, there's no reason why anyone should go without - especially scientists. In fact, scientists should have everything they ask for - they are the ones that expand our horizons, and if we remove their bottlenecks, that spurs our growth as a species. Why does NASA have budget restraints? It makes no sense to me. It's not like we as a species don't have what they need. If they need a really big radio antenna, guess what - we can do that - we have the people we have the supplies - we know how. Why? money. So in my reasoning, economy has outlived it's usefulness. At one point economy was beneficial - it spurred growth. Now it restrains it. There is a better solution - but the powers that be would never allow a society that doesn't operate on economy because they could no longer control people. Well, i'm gonna stop now before this qualifies as a novel... (too late!) If anyone needs me I'll be in my imagination driven utopia - which of course, has an open membership policy! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[cyphen]

I've had many many hours of discussion with my friends on my philosphy. I'm not sure that this forum would be good grounds for a debate - just a little clunky, but the ideas are the same - it's just harder to argue them. Oops! running late! anyway, briefly, my point simply is that it is possible, and possible within our lifetimes. I know many people who rest on the laurels of, for instance, America being the greatest country to live in. (of which i'm not really convinced - sounds like propoganda to me) My point to them is - even if it is the best place - it's not perfect, and it can get better, but not without us making it better. They argue, but it can always get better, to which i reply... exactly. I think it's a great thing that perfection is (mortally) unattainable, because no matter how great things are, they can still get better!

[Todd Beck]

*

[This message has been edited by Todd Beck (edited 02-28-2000).]

[Pat Kennedy]

WW I didn't catch this earlier. The "Give me you poor..." quote was actually Emma Lazarus. I think it is inscribed on the Statue of Liberty. I'll see if I can dig up more info on it later.

Pat

[Pat Kennedy]

History lesson on the origin of that quote...
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~CAP/LIBERTY/lazarus.html

[Zotzmein]

Todd,

Religious celebrations are nothing more than a focal point for faith and the energy derived from such belief. Rather or not their dates correspond with factual history is irrelevant.

The history of the symbolism used in the celebration is unimportant, it’s that fact that once a year Christians come together and celebrate the birth of Christ.

The tree, bunny, the time of the year, immaterial; faith transcends these things.

Regards to All,

Zotz Mein


[This message has been edited by Zotzmein (edited 12-11-1999).]

[Axel]

Cyphon - you sound really interesting -

How did this go from the MARS lander to Christmas??

Anyway - The Space program has been responsible for more pure research on this planet than any other cause or program. It's benefits are possibly only out-weighed by the inventions of the wheel and/or the transistor.

I'm all for developing and supplying the means for man-kind to spread among the stars as there is too much DAMNED traffic down here already and we are slowly sinking in our own greed & convenience generated filth.

I'm all for moving all of heavy industry out of our gravity well where it's wastes can easily be ejected towards the sun.

I can see a future economy based on clean air and clean water resources as those are coming in increasingly short supply.

Check out "Green Mars", sorry, author slips my mind, and "Bio of a Space Tyrant" parts 2-5 by Piers Anthony.

Should we find water out there, power, food, and air are of little concern as we can make those easily enough wit current technology.

I guess that's part of why I'm so committed to SETI as well, - just hoping someone out there can stop us from blowing each other to pieces as do too many rats in a cage, or politicians ( okay , mostly the same thing http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif)

When the gov stopped the super colider project here in Texas, that was a really bad blow to pure research and a better future.

I just hope they aren't stupid and cut NASA or JPL funding any further. I'd much rather see foreign aid cut back. Let a few countries start supporting themselves. I'd also say stop subsidizing farmers as well, Get the Gov to buy any excess at fair market price and give that to countries in place of money, arms, and advisors.

[U-96]

The super-collider? Was that the experiment where they needed an inquiry as to whether they would accidentally create enough anti-matter to destroy the planet? Bet the test was scheduled for 31 Dec 1999. Oops.

$150 million. Banks make and lose that much every hour of every day. As for global poverty, it's a political and distribution problem, not one of production. We could feed the world twice over if we pulled our finger out.
The main drawback with plantary settlement is that all the **** that happens on Earth would just happen everywhere else unless we get it right here first. I'm not a big STNG fan, but the global governmental and economic model portrayed there seems the only viable option to ensure ethical colonisation.

Oh, and the way I understand it, the Christian celebration of the birth of Christ was timed to coincide with the Roman festival of Saturnalia, in order that the persecuted Christians could celebrate at the same time as everyone else without attracting attention.

U-96

PS Arianne worked. Nana nananah! Go Europe! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif


[This message has been edited by U-96 (edited 12-11-1999).]

[welsh wizard]

Hi Pat K,
thanks for the link, I found it very informative, as most people outside the US who hear it think of it as meaning a country that will give hope and protection to the downtroden, gives it a new light when it turns out to be from a poem. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/biggrin.gif
WW

[Pat Kennedy]

NP WW. I don't know how I ever remembered that. Sorry for going off topic everybody.

Pat