IS A+ or any other Cert Worth Having POLL

[welsh wizard]

Hi All
Just recently I have noticed that some think computer certs are worthless or not worth a great deal as they are to easy to obtain.

Do you agree or disagree ,if so why.

I am asking becuase this year I decided that if I took on any employees I would make it that they either had A+ or they would have to pass A+ within a certain time frame.

WW

[Titan]

The company I currently work for is adopting a new policy that all new IS employees obtain their A+ within 90 days of hire, if they are not already. I do believe it is an important cert., it lets a potential employer know that they do at least know their way around a computer. Although, I would take someone with a year or two of experience before someone with no experience and the cert. Just my .02, do I get change with that? /forum/smile.gif

[Nathan]

I probably shouldn't say anything, but hey... There is so much to consider when hiring IT people. As to what you want to do WW, well are you going to be paying for them to take the class and the test? Some good people may slip through your fingers if they find out they have to pay for it all. They may not have the money for it either.

Here is my observation on the whole matter. I really think it comes down to how people are interviewed for the job. Personally I know those who don't have their A+ because they don't have time to take it or study for it. Their IT jobs are 10-12 hours a day. So does that make them less qualified than some who has it? I haven't taken mine yet. I've been going to for more than 6 months now. I've had a very dear person, who helps on this site BTW, help me study for it. And to him I owe a great debt too for it. BTW, he's one of the nicest people you would ever want to talk with. But because of the situation with my lovely bride, I just can't right now. However, here are some considerations to think about when qualifying someone:

1. Attitude. Are they wanting a job or a career? Can or will they protray the image you want your customers to have of your company?

2. Is it someone you can trust with the keys to your business, so to speak?

3. If you think they are serious candidates, then sit them in front of a computer and have them do some basic computer troubleshooting, tasks, whatever. See where they are at with their computer knowledge. Just because some don't know something doesn't mean they are not trainable either. Then there are times when the third step isn't necessary either and is an insult. But I think a balance can be had there too. You can talk to someone for about 10-20 minutes and get an idea where they are at.

So there are some things to chew on for a while. Maybe it might spark another idea. Hopefully I made some sense. lol

[Nathan]

I had a lot more thoughts on this coming home from work, but I'll just mention a couple of them. One thing you might try is give them a real world problem. Say a customer can't get to a C prompt using F8, but can using a boot disk. Seeing the customer is willing to pay to get as much of the data off the hard drive as possible, how would you go about doing this?

Another idea is use this site. Print out some of the threads and ask them how they would handle this problem or this one. Have quite a few of them covering many topics so you can hit on the areas they would know because no one knows it all.

[Mntsnow]

WW,

I personally tend to lean toward the attitude that nathan expressed in his posts. I personally have a couple of different certs (Microsoft, Novell, Cisco and a few others) but dont have the A+ and probably wouldn't have the others if my employers didnt pay for them. I know several people that have positions with in my company as well as others that dont have have a single cert and know how to do everything and 0n the other hand serveral that have every cert under the sun and CANT do a thing right! (I hope they dont read this!). When I first came to the company that I work for now I didnt have any certs but with talking to the Operations manager he could tell I knew what I was doing and I got hired instead of a guy that had his MCSE (I still dont have my MCSE but I am currently working on it). So in a nutshell I would say "Certifications preferred" but NOT REQUIRED.

Mntsnow

[CMonster]

I think that certifications in any industry are a good idea. Obivously they cannot reflect every aspect of practical knowledge, but they serve as a kind of benchmark to measure potential performance.

I only wish that companies would not make such a lucrative business out of selling certification programs and testing.

I'm sure that we would all want our Doctors and Surgeons to have the appropriate credentials - and pilots too... no matter how vast their knowledge and technical prowess.

In addition, there is a "passing score" when you become A+ certified - maybe that score should be posted on the wall along with the certificate.



[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 11-18-1999).]

[welsh wizard]

Hey Guys its not so much about me hireing some one but do you think that the cert are worth while, I know you can get people out there who know their onions without and you can get a feel for them (know if there any good)it's more a question of is it worth putting or any one going through the exam as some views came over as though A+ was worthless. So why spend thousands training any one up for it.
WW

[Mntsnow]

Ohhh...in that case YES a certification WILL OPEN the door more often than not having a certification. More often than not if 2 people are in the SAME position the ONE WITH the cert will be paid more. (that is why I'm working on my MCSE and CNE as I can per say "demand" more money for doing the same job.) It's just that I couldnt afford to pay for my classes UNTIL I got into my position.

Mntsnow

[welsh wizard]

Thanks Mntsnow I might have know you would be first to follow what I am getting at (Happy Days), Sorry to all you out there I not to good at expressing myself at the moment.
But now you all have the idea what do you think.
WW

[CMonster]

Worthwhile?

Being certified, hmmm???????? Before I passed the A+ everyone at my work knew that I was a computer junkie but few ever asked if I would look at their PCs. I made no secret of my study or the fact that I was taking the test, and after they found out that I passed...well, I haven't had a minutes rest... maybe it wasn't worth it after all????

I think some of negative opinions on certification reflect the frustration of people without credentials who all-too-often are not taken seriously when applying for a job; employers typically look for some type of credentials.

BTW; A+ cost me about $400 for 2Books, 2software test sets, and the tests themselves. I passed on Oct 1 of this year, and the extra trust that being certified garnered has already paid for itself.

On another front, I tacked on the A+ Cert to my existing resume and it very much impressed the interview panel for the (non-computer)equipment repair job I just landed with a the local power company.

Certificates look good in the public eye, if it were my shop I would want my techs certified. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

George

P.S. Great to have you back WW!!!



[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 11-19-1999).]

[ZOOTMAN]

I have some questions on this topic. First let me say I am considering getting A+ cert.
1. Is it worth it to take classes or is study on your own then testing the way to go?
2. If classes are worth it where is best place to take them, community college or comp training center?
Good topic WW. /forum/smile.gif

[jman01pa]

I agree with CMONSTER. The A+ or any other certification is worth alot to the public eye. I know the A+ is critisized greatly. I personally believe that having it shows your willing to put the effort and that your more serious than someone without. I also like the idea giving them 90 days to get it. Maybe with paid time to do it if they pass.

[Daniel son of WW]

Dad all right you made your point, I'll do more to study for the A+, but why did you have to do it in such a way that you would get Sysopt frat on line to point it out.
Daniel

[welsh wizard]

Daniel its not just about you, its about the future of the computer industry.

Besides what are you doing still up it's passed 1 in the morning and how come the terminal I disconnected from the net is back online. I'll have words with you in the morning.
Da

[This message has been edited by welsh wizard (edited 11-19-1999).]

[pickel]

Daniel.......................................

[xtant]

Before making anyof my comments, I must say that I have no certs presently.

I have gone through books and tests on A+, networking essentials, win95, win 98, nt workstation and server. I have not taken any of the tests yet.
Maybe it's just the way that I learn, but I get far more from actually doing the work than reading a book or taking practice tests.
I agree that having a standard level of performance is very important, but there are a lot of people who can sit down and study a book until they know everything in it and pass a test and still know essentially nothing about the material.
I believe that experience is more important than any certification, and that part of the interview process for any IT job should include some technical testing to be sure the candidate has the knowledge required.
In theory, it's a great idea. In practice, it won't always be an accurate guideline.

[DrW]

Since this goes along with the preveious question, I'll ask. I am about to graduate with a BS in Computer Science (which really doesn't say a whole lot). Is it worth spending the $250 for the test knowing that I might not pass? I have invested in at least one book and am borrowing two older ones from a friend on the matter. The main reason I ask is that $250 is quite a bit for me, and I don't want to throw money at something that will not be of benefit.

P.S. I do know my stuff for the most part, but I still wonder how much knowledge I really do need to make the test worthwhile.

[This message has been edited by DrW (edited 11-19-1999).]

[Mntsnow]

DrW,

I can say that the A+ was fairly easy for me to pass. as it was "basic" knowledge stuff that most pc techs would know after about 6 month of on the job training. Now the MCSE and CNE full blown certifications are quite a bit more intenisive and demanding of the persons skill and knowledge. Which test were you thinking of taking?

Mntsnow

[rh71]

Let me put this out on the table. At an interview with a very very large international computer corporation, (who shall remain nameless now), the MIS head DID NOT know what A+ was. He pointed to the following words on my resume - "A+ Certified, for hardware" - and simply asked, "what's that?"

How discouraging does that sound? I had to use MCSE to describe certifications to him. Just food for thought.

But to interject another opinion on your question, Welsh Wizard... definitely go for A+. It will not only give you recognition of your knowledge with computer hardware (and Windows 3.1,95/DOS), but will also give you an opportunity to learn those little things you never could have known from playing around.

Granted, first-hand experience is better in my opinion than reading/studying from books, but the latter will in a sense solidify your knowledge. If not for recognition (and money), do it for your thirst for computer knowledge. It's not getting me any extra cash at the moment, but I certainly learned a hell of a lot! And now that guy from IBM knows too /forum/wink.gif

[welsh wizard]

In reading some of the earlier answers I notice comment on Training cost, so maybe I should put my thoughts down.
(1)
I think the industry must push for A+ as a starting point, with a higher level of A+ to cover sys eng with say 2 years or 3 years exp.
(2)
Any company that takes on people should either look at A+ as a starting point, and as you can get very good non cert people who haven't bothered to take the exams,with these if the company takes them on, the company should make it policy that they take this exam within 6 months of joining, of course the company should pay the training fees and exam fees, but if they do this once trainee has cert company should have the right to either a min of say 6 month emploment or some form of comp if no sead certified person should decide he or she is leaving now they have the cert.
(3)
I personally think this industry needs to be upgraded so that when a customer goes to a shop he knows there will be a certain standard and service, and the risk of them meeting fly by nights is reduced.

WW
PS sorry for blasting Daniel off on the BBS, I was going to edit it out but most of you have already seen it.

[DrW]

Couldn't agree with you more onthose policies, WW. This might help you find people who can handle the test, but have never taken the time to study the bookwork or don't want to spend the money on it.

Mntsnow, I am considering the A+ right now. I am a naturally nervous person about whether or not I can handle something, so this explains my apprehension. I definitely plan to take the MCSE when I think I can handle it (and possibly get an employer to pay for it), but that is a little further in the future.

[CMonster]

The point has been made over and over about experience being superior to "just sitting down and reading a book;" there is no need to drive that into the ground.

I honestly hope that there are not a lot of people who say, "Gee, I'm 18, gotta stop mowing yards and get a real job - I think I'll get A+ certified....now if I only had a computer."

I personally had a rather intense mechanical and electrical background for the last 22 years (don't know about experience but in 1978 I was working on Pershing Missile systems, what were some of you doing then), in addition I repaired and built PCs as a hobbie for almost 4 years before I ever thought of getting certified. I am A+ certified now, working on Network+ and after that maybe MCSE - if I don't burn out. And then, this "old-dog" is headed back to school - I hope to at least die with a degree of some kind.

The A+ is fairly easy, I would recommend reading a couple of study guides and buying a couple of those online tests that give you 600 - 900 questions in the actual test format. There are three ways to pass: to have a vast amount of general PC/hardware & DOS Windows experience, or to memorize every possible question, or to use a combined method which amounts to augmenting your knowledge with study.

A passing score is 65% hardware and 66% DOS/Win - almost anyone can pass with a little study, but I would personally ahve problems with someone working on my equipment who scored less than 80%

Attending a $999 course for A+ would be a foolish waste of money. Just buy the books with the CDROM, study, buy some tests online and study 1 hour a day. 30 min reading in morning and 30 min practice test in the evening. You will know when you are ready.

Good luck - keep learning

Peace-

etc-

/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 11-19-1999).]

[AuraEdge]

Wow all these posts and no links! Anyone got a link to some info about the A+ Cert stuff?
If im ever gunna take it itll be now, since Im already in the moods with all the SAT's n stuff /forum/smile.gif

[Ravenous Beast]

Here are a few links that I used to study. http://www.cramsession.com http://aplustutor.com

Just to give you an example. I am really new to computers but felt I knew enough to take the test after only 2 weeks of study time. Well I became A+ on 11-08-1999 with scores of 98% in core and 87% in DOS/Win modules.
I had already lined up a job as a network technician before I had A+. Now during the interviews it was mentioned that I'd be taking the test shortly but did not seem to really make a difference to them. Also I had sent out about 20 other resumes after getting A+ to see what the market was demanding. I have not heard from anyone yet. But another thing is I am doing a career change right now and I have absolutely NO experience so that more than anything is probably the biggest factor in my A+ not getting any real attention. Another note the people I have taken this job with were very interested that I was studying for MCSE+I and CNE and even N+ (for Networking, but by the A+ folks)
Well I am sorry for the length I just know it was hard for me to get any response's when I first started asking ?'s


[This message has been edited by Ravenous Beast (edited 11-19-1999).]

[CMonster]

AuraEdge;
http://www.mic-inc.com/Aplus - great but there are about 6 glaring inaccuracies in the practice test questions. But still worth the $50 for the 890 questions.
http://dalidesign.com/prepap/apad.html - another useful test simulator.
http://www.aplusexam.com - also check here
http://www.apluscertification.com - here is another site
http://www.testfree.com - a hoaky little site that might net you some junk mail, but you can try a short practice test here.
http://www.lelogic.com - try the practice test here also.



[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 11-20-1999).]

[socalgal]

A great site for tech books: www.fatbrain.com (http://www.fatbrain.com)

Just type A+ in the Search bar /forum/smile.gif

[AuraEdge]

How do u sign up for this test? and how much would it cost?
Do you think its worth it?
Im not really doing it to prove myself anything or to get a better position in a large company. Im going to get my liscence soon (yet another test...) and I plan to get a comp job after I get a car, and would like some proof that I know quite a bit, instead of being some kid who comes in welding this bag of hot air.

[grandslammer]

Well, I guess it depends on what you're planning on doing, huh? If you're looking for a job in IT, then the "sheepskin" might be worth getting, huh?

[welsh wizard]

Just to add a little spice, there's talk of a Network+ exam being added to the scheme of things.
As for cheapy books that might help try
A+ Fast Track ( http://www.newriders.com )
$34.99 US
or you could even get
A+ for dummies
it comes with a CDRom
WW

[Ravenous Beast]

There are two test, the core and DOS\Win modules and they cost $128.00 USD per test for a total of $256.00. As to wether its worth it I honestly can't say. Also something that I found interesting is during the test I never saw "right-click" it was always referd to as "alternate-click"(just FYI because I never saw it listed that way before) If you are looking for ?'s check out the "A+ certification exam guide", by Michael Meyers, you can get it for around $50.00 USD. It comes with a CD that has 100 questions but you can unlock it another 600 for $50.00 USD and if you buy your test vouchers from them you get a $50.00 discount. In essence you get the additional questions for free. Check out http://www.totalseminars.com. Good luck!!!!

[This message has been edited by Ravenous Beast (edited 11-20-1999).]

[Nathan]

LOL. I have to chuckle CMonster. I see these people who have the Certs coming down their sleeve, yet panic when the PC GPF's, IPF'S, etc. So I go fix it and they say "how'd you do that?" I'd reply, "that's why they pay me the bucks to work here."

[This message has been edited by Nathan (edited 11-22-1999).]

[jad1097]

This has raised some ?'s for me. I am now a union journeyman wireman electrican and would like to get into the computer industry. I have been around computers most of my life. But Last year I got serious about them.YOu know Doing things like fubaring windows and then fixing it. Also have some exp in trouble shooting. I have built a few comps for friends.
Ok to the point How much $$ can I make @ entry level? I have a family to support and now make $42k plus OT a year. What kind of school should I go to. I was thinking a tech school.
My family and friends seem to think that I know what I am doing. They all are amazed at how fast I picked this up after getting a 486 last year. Before that I still used my apple 2c+(built in 1984) green screen and all.
I do enjoy working on computers even though they can be a pain some times. I am going to install BEOS and linux soon just for the fun of it. This is long enough I think.
Thanks for all the help.

[CMonster]

Great to hear about your enthusiasm!

The latest versions of BeOS and Linux really Kick it - I mean they are great. I'm sure it will be a great learning experience for you.

As for money in the computer industry, well that is difficult to say, it depends on what you are doing and for whom. If you go into an entry level job at a company where you will be repairing and upgrading PCs then you will probably be sorely disappointed. Entry level for A+ (entry level tech) is about $10 an hour.

But...if you do that kind of work independently then you can make some pretty good money. And as your ability with computers grows - into say, network administration, consulting, or possibly programing, then the big bucks are really out there. But as with anything else, there is a lot of competition.

My suggestion is to do it on the side at first -little for hobbie - little for money - and see where it takes you.

With your skills and experience, I would recommend that you come out here to Los Angeles, and take the Electrical distribution Mechanic's test. the Los Angeles Dept of Water and Power is ALWAYS hiring for these, and the starting pay is about 50K + overtime (lots available)+ 100% medical, excelent dental, retirement, and other super benefits available. Last year some EDMs were in the 80K range.

If you guessed that I am a "city-dog" you are correct. Hope to see you here.

George.

[welsh wizard]

CMonster
with those sort of perks if I had been 25 years younger I would say stuff working on my company, go try for work in your neck of the woods, every thing found and good pay for no probs.
WW

[DHatAVI]

Thanks CM, with the exception the type of industry that I'm currently employed in, I could relate almost word for word with jad1097. I work in the genaral aviation maintenence industry as a mechanic / inspector (18 yrs), and though I could move and make more than I do now, I'm also exploring a career change. I have enjoyed working with computers since my TRS-80 day's.
I have been reading Michael Meyers book and working with some of the online tests, and hopefully will take the real thing soon. Even if it's not worth it, it can't hurt.
I've been doing some repair work and upgrading in the evening, but not enough to survive on yet. But at this point, it's not so much the money, but the experience that I am gaining that I consider my reward.
The money is just the proverbial frosting on the cake.

Has anyone had any experience with the course offered by Marcraft International? or with the "faulting" programs. Are they worth investing $165. into?

David

[rh71]

What do you guys think of the ...For Dummies line of cert books? I bought the A+ Cert for Dummies simply on others' recommendation over all other books out there. It was hard for me to believe too, but I went for it. Turned out it was not as helpful for the exam itself, but it was helpful in getting you to understand concepts of it all.

What do you guys think of that line of books?!

[welsh wizard]

Did you try the Micro tech program with its tests, Man I bought that program for Daniels 10 months ago cost couple hundred dollors now find it on the dummies as a give away /forum/frown.gif
only diff was that CDRom for Daniels has extra MT2000 on it as for most of dummies books they can get messy if you want ref somthing, but for some your trying to get started they are a light read and can spark a deeper interest.
WW

[mnx]

I'm in my last year of high school now and am planning to attend university for computer engineering, and am going to apply for the co-op program as well. I've been a computer enthusiast since i started school (when i saw my first computer). I thought about a tech school to get a degree and something like an a-plus but i thought I'd rather get into
the R & D of computer hardware instead of putting computers together and troubleshooting them... (ne1 out there who works r&d for a hardware company or are most people who work in the industry IT people??)

MNX

[Steve R Jones]

In yesterdays Dallas Morning Newspaper:

RHI Consulting in Ca. asked 470 high-tech contractors to rate the importance of tech certs as career advancement tools.

39 percent - Very Important
11 - Somewhat UNimportant
5 - Not at all important
1 - Don't know
44 - Somewhat important

And the most valuable certs an IT pro can own:

42 percent - MS System Engineer
13 - Cisco Cert Internetwork Expert
4 - Certified Netware Engineer
4 - MS Cert Solution Developer
3 - Oracle Cert Pro
2 - A+ Cert
17 - Other
15 - Not valuable

[U-96]

I had a browse in the local bookshop through some A+ and N+ books, and was quite surprised how straightforward it was. I'm not knocking anyone who has the A+, but I figured I could answer 30-40% of the questions off the top of my head.
I've been a Windows user since 1990 and built my own system this summer, so I'm no expert. A lot of that percentage has to do with just being a regular visitor to Sysopt.
The N+ looked a little trickier, but I have no experience of networking.
My point is that the exam (as with many others) is nothing more than a memory test. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the books I (briefly) browsed were simply knowledge checks.
Example:
1)Which port is regularly configured for HTTP? A: 23 B: 80 C: 139 d: 1001
2)The __________ utility shows the client IP connection.

While it's great for testing your memory, I'm not sure (if that is the scope of testing) how the application of knowledge is tested. It's also very reliant on interpretation, for example the "right-click=alternate click" thing mentioned above... does anyone on this board "alternate click" their mouse?

I suppose to this end, I commend Sysopt members who seem to toast this test with 90%+, but I feel that the real skills of lateral thinking and practical application (such as Nathan suggested and people demonstrate everyday on this BBS) cannot be measured with such a basic (in concept, not content) test.

I've taken many exams and tests in my life, and this one rates to stuff that I took when I was about 16. My batchelor's degree would not ask "What is the HTTP port", but "The HTTP port is 80. Discuss."
I think that's a subtle but important difference.

I may have gotten the wrong impression from the small sample I looked at, but that's my 0.02c on what I saw. (well more like a dime's worth /forum/smile.gif)

U-96


[~edit]
ROFLMAO. I thought I'd check out that sample test at www.lelogic.com (http://www.lelogic.com)
I got 80% on first pass. I guess either it's an easy test to hook you into the course or I know more than I thought I did. /forum/smile.gif
However, it did demonstrate that I know squat about laser printers, but that's why people get maintenance contracts with HP isn't it? /forum/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by U-96 (edited 11-30-1999).]

[Dkay]

Its funny cuz I am sitting in the room at school that I am working on my A+ in. /forum/smile.gif
I'm on chapter 8.

Later!

[JAYJAY]

As for myself. I think that there are two types of people out there. Number #1 - those who are certifed and Number #2 - those who know what there doing. To put it simply anybody could signup for some classes or read some books and go get certified. I myself am not certified but have met all too many people who don't know #!*$# about computers. There are however a third type of classifcations before all of you blow you head off =) Number #3 - Those who are certifed and know what they are doing. I have myself taken a lot of courses for certification but just have not been motivated to go and take the test. Oh and also in the 7 years that I have been in the industry I have never had a problem getting a job.