Pro-gun vs Anti-gun why can we not come to an understanding

[Aqeous]

Who’s views take precedents when equally valid information is submitted by both sides. A great deal of bias and unrealistic information plagues both sides of the arguments. Both sides have very strongly held convictions.. Debates become arguments instead of actual attempts to come to some kind of consensus that could actually make our streets safer.

In support of the anti-gun argument: bullets end up in people one way or the other and hence people die. It seems simple enough doesn’t it. For anti-gun activists there is very little that can sway them from this very simple and obvious opinion. Whoever tires is deemed at best ignorant, or at worst a gun activist “crazy”.

In support of the Pro-gun argument--here is a quote from an unbiased Harvard study of international murder/suicide rates v.s. gun control legislation.

"In the late 1990s, England moved from stringent controls to a complete ban of all handguns and many types of long guns. Hundreds of thousands of guns were confiscated from those owners law-abiding enough to turn them in to authorities. Without suggesting this caused violence, the ban's ineffectiveness was such that by the year 2000 violent crime had so increased that England and Wales had Europe's highest violent crime rate . . . far surpassing even the United States."

When anti-gun supporters quote Europe’s better gun control and hence less rates of violent crime that have no informed basis to make such a comment. They believe that it is true, but it by far is not. Just one example of many that does support pro-gunners assertion that more gun legislation will be ineffective.

It is my opinion that more gun laws or not, the simple fact that right now, according to present day laws, no felons are allowed to be anywhere near firearms of any kind offers both law enforcement and our government ample authority to keep guns out of the hands of violent offenders. SO why aren’t we safer? Can we not come to some kind of consensus of action being that pro-gunners also claim to not want guns in the hands of criminals either? I looked at the statistics, 90% of all violent crimes are committed by individuals that have already committed repeated felonies in their adult lives.

Does anyone have any comments on this line of thinking?

[mireland]

guns don't kill people. people kill people. :t

[BadDriver]

guns don't kill people. people kill people. :t

And sometimes dogs shoot people. :mad: :t

http://www.fox11az.com/news/topstories/stories/KMSB-20080111-khoubp-dogshootsowner.1118bf28.html

[mireland]

And sometimes dogs shoot people. :mad: :t

http://www.fox11az.com/news/topstories/stories/KMSB-20080111-khoubp-dogshootsowner.1118bf28.html


that's one naughty puppy... :eek:

[werz]

guns don't kill people. people kill people. :t
What a moronic statement.

[mireland]

What a moronic statement.


what an asinine reply... :rolleyes:

[Shoreguy]

guns don't kill people. religion kills people. a sudden stop of blood flow to the brain and lack of oxygen from the lungs kills people. governments kill people. ignorance kills people. stupidity kills people. guns don't kill people

[Aqeous]

This is exactly what I was talking about; “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people” or “dog shoots man?”
This is what I was referring to. Its no wonder no one ever gets anywhere with this debate.

---What about the illegal trafficking of guns committed by an estimated 8% of over all individuals who are supposed to be bound by the law to issue background checks (ex.).

--what about the fact of how most people don’t know that England has a huge violent crime rate in spite of the fact most all types of guns are banned. Violent crime by gun shot has actually increased in that country do to illegal trafficking of weapons. The exact same phenomena mind you that is right now allowing felons in our own country to acquire firearms and use them against law enforcement.

--how about internationally: nations with MORE guns per 100,000 people have much LESS overall crime rates in comparison to other countries that have LESS guns per 100,000 people?

Where are the intelligent and informed conversations? Why can’t we listen to each other and understand the facts instead of just mindless here say? This is the question that I am posing in this thread. I have taken the time to research in depth both sides of this argument and have found some very surprising facts. But my question is why can we not debate with real facts, why must people adhere to circumstantial truths that have no basis whatsoever in reality? This forum is dedicated to debate , so I have come here to ask this question . . . Why???





The PDF file at the bottom of this link was originally posted on the Harvard Law Educational Website. It is one of the only independent and unbiased international studies of violent crime and suicide rates world wide. Its observations and conclusions are quite surprising. If you are looking for REAL knowledge outside of urban myths and political agendas this would be a very good place to start. it’s a bit lengthy but all of its sources are sited. If you are interested here its . . .

[j.m@talk]

ITS OBVIOUS TO ALL EXCEPT RETARDS !

The reason so many ppl get shot in the US is because the place is awash with firearms....... Jeyzerz

Why is the place awash with firearms ??....... Well either the populous believes that deer & bears can shoot back

OR

They are terrified of one & other

OOOOOH YEAH! .......... LOOSE THE FEAR & THE FIREARMS WILL GO BY THEMSELVES

[Aqeous]

"ITS OBVIOUS TO ALL EXCEPT RETARDS !"

This is not a debate . . . a valid statement . . . nor is it a claim of someone who actually took the time to read the PDF file I offered (or anything like it) This is also what I am trying to point out.

Beyond that I am not even sure what he is talking about?

OOOOHHH YA??????????????????????

[mireland]

ITS OBVIOUS TO ALL EXCEPT RETARDS !

which would explain why werz don't get it... :rolleyes:

[RockNRoll]

You never hear on the news... "Today a man was shot and killed by a gun when it broke into his house and confronted him".

Heck, you never even hear "A tragedy occured today when a knive lunged itself at a pedestrian walking late at night, killing the pedestrian."

Kooky liberals are always going after guns... What about knives, forks, plastic bags, and string? All things must be controlled by the user.

[Aqeous]

Aren’t conservatives going after the guns?? The liberals are usually pro-gun.

[j.m@talk]

So not wanting brainless wankers running around with firearms makes you liberal does it ? :-0

[j.m@talk]

This is not a debate . . .

Not even a Mass one ? ;)

[Aqeous]

I think technically speaking not wanting brainless wankers running around with guns makes you a conservative.

[mireland]

people with guns kill other people with or without guns...the end. :rolleyes:

[Train]

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#INFRINGE).
http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am2

Besides, cars kill more people every year than guns do. Ban cars???

[mireland]

Besides, cars kill more people every year than guns do. Ban cars???

nope..just ban JM from driving them... :D

[j.m@talk]

That troo :t

http://www.fancysplace.com/smileys/driving.gif (http://www.fancysplace.com/smileys/driving.gif)

[j.m@talk]

Barack Embalmer will sort it all out :D

[Ankerson]

More people die on the roads every year than are killed by people using guns.

Never hear anyone talking about banning cars do you?

What about Booze and idiots driving drunk, never hear about banning booze either.

Guns are not the problem, people are the problem, there are to many idiots, criminals and other assorted low lives out there.

Guns are a easy political agenda for the do nothing politicians who want ave Joe or Jane to think they are trying to do something.

THE REAL ISSUES NEVER GET ADDRESSED AND NEVER WILL. :rolleyes:

[BadDriver]

Well, the UK is proof of the old saying........................

"If owning guns were a crime, only criminals would own guns."

Imagine that? A country with gun control is having a rise in gun related crimes. That just can't be happening can it? :D :p

[Ankerson]

Well, the UK is proof of the old saying........................

"If owning guns were a crime, only criminals would own guns."

Imagine that? A country with gun control is having a rise in gun related crimes. That just can't be happening can it? :D :p


Oh yeah I think that is really funny...

Kinda shoots down the whole gun control thing huh?

[leprechaun_40]

Guns don't kill people, they just make it easier and quicker.

Good gun control is hitting your target.

[BadDriver]

Oh yeah I think that is really funny...

Kinda shoots down the whole gun control thing huh?

It isn't that hard to figure out really. In the US you don't know if the "honest citizen" is packing or not. In the UK you can be sure he is not armed (at least with a gun and you don't bring a knife to a gunfight). The punk with the gun has a very clear advantage.

Handguns are too easy to conceal to "outlaw" them.

[Ankerson]

It isn't that hard to figure out really. In the US you don't know if the "honest citizen" is packing or not. In the UK you can be sure he is not armed (at least with a gun and you don't bring a knife to a gunfight). The punk with the gun has a very clear advantage.

Handguns are too easy to conceal to "outlaw" them.

Personally I have always preferred edged weapons to guns for self defense.

[BadDriver]

Maybe for close up in your face defense. Unless you can throw a knife like a pro at 10 feet you are dead meat. :(

[Ankerson]

Maybe for close up in your face defense. Unless you can throw a knife like a pro at 10 feet you are dead meat. :(


Don't you believe it..... ;)

Nothing like a good Bowie Knife I can tell you. :x

[mireland]

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/BDX/BDX299/hunting-knife-~-bxp51820.jpg

[Ankerson]

Better than that. :D

[Train]

Now with a few apers rounds.

http://www.books2cd.com/images/jeep/jeep8.jpg

Flechettes work great!

[Ankerson]

We there is always that. LOL :D

[werz]

You boys play with your guns, making it easy for criminals to get them, if you want to have a huge death tolls by shooting, go for it.

[Ankerson]

Doesn't matter if it's easy or hard, they will always get them anyway.

They have the means to get what they want. ;)

Look at Japan, you can't even own a gun in Japan, but the crimminals have them. ;)

[Lgbpop]

That Harvard study referenced above clarifies a lot. Until now, the dubious stats offered by the anti-gun lobby were the only ones I knew of, and they skewed the graph I'd drawn in my mind. However, knowing now that an extremely-regulated society has high rates of deaths caused by people brandishing firearms - instead of fresh fruit, knives, comfy chairs or the like - the graph becomes a straight line, directly-proportional one. The greater regulation of firearms, the greater number of deaths involving them. the reason the USA has any at all is because there is partial regulation. Remove all regulation forbidding them, and deaths should fall to within the statistical expectation.

Funny how NYC and DC are the two US cities with the strictest laws, and the highest rates of death by firearms. Conversely, the few communities in the USA where firearms possession is mandatory have seen no related deaths in recent years. (I checked Morton Grove, IL; Virgin, UT; and Kennesaw, GA, the three communities I could find quickly in a search.)

[j.m@talk]

Well, the UK is proof of the old saying........................

"If owning guns were a crime, only criminals would own guns."

Imagine that? A country with gun control is having a rise in gun related crimes. That just can't be happening can it? :D :p

The likelyhood of getting shot or even Shot at here .......... Not even worth thinking about

Unless ya a illegal imigrant & ya on the tube looking "ifi" ....... Then ya deserve to "Eat Lead" ...........

Keep ya guns on the Silly Side of the Atlantic ..... We don't want em. :t

[Lgbpop]

The likelyhood of getting shot or even Shot at here .......... Not even worth thinking about

Unless ya a illegal imigrant & ya on the tube looking "ifi" ....... Then ya deserve to "Eat Lead" ...........

Keep ya guns on the Silly Side of the Atlantic ..... We don't want em. :tIn support of the Pro-gun argument--here is a quote from an unbiased Harvard study of international murder/suicide rates v.s. gun control legislation.

"In the late 1990s, England moved from stringent controls to a complete ban of all handguns and many types of long guns. Hundreds of thousands of guns were confiscated from those owners law-abiding enough to turn them in to authorities. Without suggesting this caused violence, the ban's ineffectiveness was such that by the year 2000 violent crime had so increased that England and Wales had Europe's highest violent crime rate . . . far surpassing even the United States."
Ivory towers are more credible than JM towers....... :t

[j.m@talk]

Violent crime we may have ..... Lodsa flying HV bullets we don't

Unless ya lives in Gunchester... :eek:

Our major crime issues revolve around drinking too much & having a fight with the cops @ closing time..... "Its the British way" Just invite us all over for a Soccer match ... & watch the Sherrif Run ;)

Footy Song Stylee
We had joy we had fun, we had the yankees on the run,
but the joy didn't last, cos the b@stards ran too fast :t

[Lgbpop]

No wonder you guys lost the war - ya can't tell Yankees from the French.... :t

[RockNRoll]

Aren’t conservatives going after the guns?? The liberals are usually pro-gun.

No sir. Other way round.

Werz. Think of a world where guns are outlawed. The good won't have them, the bad will, therefore, no self defense, and the death toll of the innocent rises. Drugs are illegal aren't they?

[j.m@talk]

I want a Nuke in my back garden then ...... Gonna rig it up so if I get burgled it goes off ..... Gonna have a radio link so if anyone tries to harm me its detonation time .......... Ohh yes I too can talk complete COCK

[RockNRoll]

Might as well just detonate it the moment you get it set up... Since if anyone tries to harm you, you'll end up harming yourself anyways...and a good bit of neighbors as well... :p:rolleyes:

[werz]

Do any of you gun owners know someone who has shot a burglar or other criminal, intent on harming them?
Whats the chances of having a gun around when a violent crime is being committed.
Whats the chances of you shooting someone who has a gun.
It's all very well to think you could do it, but it's highly unlikely you'll ever be in that situation, so you don't know how you'll react.
I have no problem with people owning guns, of any type.
I also think all drugs should be legalized.
I'm tired of govt's telling me what to do.

[RockNRoll]

Do any of you gun owners know someone who has shot a burglar or other criminal, intent on harming them?
Whats the chances of having a gun around when a violent crime is being committed.
Whats the chances of you shooting someone who has a gun.
It's all very well to think you could do it, but it's highly unlikely you'll ever be in that situation, so you don't know how you'll react.


Yeah, but I'd rather the assurance incase I manage to find myself into one of those highly unlikely situations. Better safe than sorry. It's kind of like keeping a spare tire in your car. It's not that likely you'll get a flat, but you want to be prepared to avoid getting yourself in a major jam. Only guns may get you out of a more life/death situation.

[Ankerson]

Yeah, but I'd rather the assurance incase I manage to find myself into one of those highly unlikely situations. Better safe than sorry. It's kind of like keeping a spare tire in your car. It's not that likely you'll get a flat, but you want to be prepared to avoid getting yourself in a major jam. Only guns may get you out of a more life/death situation.


There is nothing like a 12 gauge shotgun for home defense. :D :x

[j.m@talk]

There is nothing like a 12 gauge shotgun for home defense. :D :x

Yeah the burglar uses it to shut ya up when ya unexpectedly come home half way thro :t

[Steve R Jones]

I have a Concealed Handgun License (CHL). What I found interesting when going through the training class was the amount of time spent on talking about what and who you Can’t shoot.

You can’t shoot someone for stealing your automobile. If they try to inflict bodily harm by running over you then you can shoot em. BUT, even then, shooting has to be a last resort. If stepping out of the way or going back in the house is an option – do it…

If you shoot and kill someone AND the grand jury lets you off – You could still easily face a civil case brought on by the family of the person you shot. It’ll cost you thousands and thousands of dollars to defend yourself…

[Ankerson]

I have a Concealed Handgun License (CHL). What I found interesting when going through the training class was the amount of time spent on talking about what and who you Can’t shoot.

You can’t shoot someone for stealing your automobile. If they try to inflict bodily harm by running over you then you can shoot em. BUT, even then, shooting has to be a last resort. If stepping out of the way or going back in the house is an option – do it…

If you shoot and kill someone AND the grand jury lets you off – You could still easily face a civil case brought on by the family of the person you shot. It’ll cost you thousands and thousands of dollars to defend yourself…


Not like the old days huh Steve. LOL

Not worth it these days IMO with the courts on the side of the thugs.

[Steve R Jones]

If you do shoot, you want to shoot to kill. Then there's only your side of the story :-@

[Ankerson]

If you do shoot, you want to shoot to kill. Then there's only your side of the story :-@


True.

[Lgbpop]

Do any of you gun owners know someone who has shot a burglar or other criminal, intent on harming them?
Whats the chances of having a gun around when a violent crime is being committed.
Whats the chances of you shooting someone who has a gun.
It's all very well to think you could do it, but it's highly unlikely you'll ever be in that situation, so you don't know how you'll react.
I have no problem with people owning guns, of any type.
I also think all drugs should be legalized.
I'm tired of govt's telling me what to do.You sure sound as if you have a problem with people owning weapons. I own one, and years ago I did shoot a burglar in our home. I don't care what some whining liberal/anti-gun nut says, if the choice is the well-being of my family or the well-being of the burglar you can guess whose welfare I care little for. Most people would react the same if pushed, despite your sentiments to the contrary. ;)

[j.m@talk]

If you shoot and kill someone AND the grand jury lets you off – You could still easily face a civil case brought on by the family of the person you shot. It’ll cost you thousands and thousands of dollars to defend yourself…

Could nip round & shoot the family too :t

[Ankerson]

Other than the obvious (Living with it) the only bad thing about shooting some thug is the BS you have to go through after.

[j.m@talk]

years ago I did shoot a burglar in our home.

Did ya kill im or are ya a carp shot ?

[Ankerson]

Did ya kill im or are ya a carp shot ?


This really isn't the best topic in the world to be talking about you know. There is nothing good about killing someone in the end.

Things do happen unfortunately that might force it to happen but it's still not good.

[j.m@talk]

There is nothing good about killing someone in the end.

W00t!............ Even if theys called William ? ;)

[Lgbpop]

Did ya kill im or are ya a carp shot ?I was a good shot back then (several trophies). If I'd wanted to kill him I could have. I aimed for his knee, harder to run that way. :) (Besides, a 25-20's only a small game rifle.) Mom told me one shot was enough unless he moved before the cops came to the house.

[j.m@talk]

I was a good shot back then

Ahh well ya see, ya needs the right tool fer the job in hand ya see....... A sawn off 12 gauge would of had the desired effect with the most rudimentary of aiming :D

[Lgbpop]

No, the desired result was to not have too much cleanup. No sense in making a mess. :rolleyes:

[j.m@talk]

Its ok ...... Ya can break in ...... But don't make a mess ? :eek: