Border Control

[bushmaster]

I bought a bird feeder. I hung it on my back porch and filled it with bird seed. Within a week we had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the continuous flow of free and easily accessible food. But then the birds started building nests in the boards of the patio, above the table and next to the barbecue.
Then came the poop. It was everywhere, on the patio, tile,chairs,table....everywhere. Then some of the birds turned mean. They would dive bomb me and try to peck me even though I had fed them out of my own pocket. Other birds were boisterous and loud. They sat on the feeder squawked and screamed at all hours of the day and night demanding that I fill it when it got low on food. After awhile I couldn't even sit on my porch anymore. I took down the bird feeder and in three days the birds were gone. I cleaned up their mess and took down the many nests they had built all over the patio. Soon, the back yard was like it used to be....quite, serene and no one demanding their rights to a free meal.
Now lets see...our government gives out free food, housing, free medical care, free education and allows anyone born here to be an automatic citizen. Then the illegals came by tens of thousands. Suddenly our taxes went up to pay for free services; small apartments are housing 5 families: you have to wait 6 hours to be seen by an emergency room doctor: your child's 2nd grade class is behind other schools because over half the class doesn't speak English: Corn Flakes now come in a bilingual box: I have to press "one" to hear my bank talk to me in English and people waving flags other then "Old Glory" are squawking and screaming in the streets, demanding more rights and free liberties. Maybe it's time for the government to take down the bird feeder.


How does illegal immigration cost us?
(1) Identity Theft http://redtape.msnbc.com/2006/03/hidden_cost_of_.html
(2) Tax Burden
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
(3) Death
http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/
(4) More Taxes
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug25.html
(5) THIS IS THE GRAND DADDY OF ALL SITES DEDICATED TO ILLUSTRATING THE COST ILLEGALS HAVE ON THE AMERICAN TAX PAYER.
http://immigrationcounters.com/

[Shoreguy]

Hmm...
I fought for the freedom of this country (ok, so it was oil some now-dead dictator claimed was his).
The country that was founded on the premise, promise and demand of freedom.
The country where a little statue in the middle of a harbor in some small town reads, "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door"
The country where immigrants built a majority of the very foundations you place your soap-box.
The country that allows ignorant, short-sighted buffoons like you to babble on, without fear of persecution or prosecution.
Unless you are majority NATIVE American, might I suggest you take a healthy spoonful of ESTEEFU and figure out a way to keep the welcome wagon in business.

[werz]

Illegal immigration isn't in the communities best interest.
It also discriminates against those who migrate the correct way.

[bushmaster]

"The country where immigrants built a majority of the very foundations"
Right you are. They came here and built something. They as well slaughtered off entire tribes and nations of people, but they built something. We are the descendants of the last group of illegals and times have changed since those days.
You need to check yourself with the name calling as I too fought for this country and had my own blood spilled for it. Any day you want we can meet toe to toe and not hide behind a monitor and talking **** like keyboard warriors wannabe's.

The native Americans are few and far between because of the last group of illegals. Do we end up going the same way ? I think not.

[Lgbpop]

There is a distinction between illegal and legal immigration. To say that those who are against illegal immigration are against immigration completely is illogical. I'm all for increasing the immigration quotas. I'm also 100% in favor of sending the illegals home. If we're going to have laws, enforce them. Otherwise, repeal them. But don't pass laws and then say it's stupid to enforce them. That means our government is wasting taxpayers' time and money.

BTW, illegal immigrant is not even a proper term. In order to immigrate, one needs to go through Customs and Immigration - which no illegal does, obviously. The proper term is still illegal alien.

One last thing - stop using that stupid PC term Native American to refer to American Indians. Whether one's ancestors came by boat from the East or walked across a land bridge from the West, our ancestors' descendants (us) are all native Americans. I'm 11th-generation American myself, but I only know of one Indian ancestor back in the early 1700s on my mom's side. African-American also drives me crazy. We have African-American neighbors in our neighborhood, but black people would say that being white and Algerian doesn't count. They'd be wrong. ;)

[Shoreguy]

I'll keep this one short, as I have to head to work.
1. My calling you an ignorant, short-sighted buffoon is based on the fact that I've seen your original post forwarded to me in spammed email for the past 15 years. Bandwagoners like yourself read and repost without checking into things themselves. I'm suprised you didn't post 'don't buy gas on May 15th'. I hide behind nothing. If you'd like to discuss this in person over a beer or in front of a group of immigrants.
I'd be happy to meet you where I live. It's an Asian-majority neighborhood in Southern California, where we receive the largest national 'hit' of 'illegal aliens'. Just for clarification, I'm of Swedish, English and German decent, tracing back to 1742.
2. Which "last group of illegals" are you referring to? Post-1890, you can pick from: Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, Colombia, Honduras, China, Ecuador, Dominican Republic, Philippines, Brazil, Haiti, India, Peru, Korea, Canada, Austrian, Czech, Hungarian, Slovak, Cuban, Cambodian, Laotian, Vietnamese, or did you have pre-1890 in mind? I can start again with Chinese, and include every other country I missed that had mass immigrations (legal and illegal).
3. Yes, we've got legitimate problems with resident aliens in the US. No doubt putting more control of immigration into law would curb future migrants. However, your stated issues are with the legal and illegals already here. Do you think the guy in the car booming loud non-English music in your neighborhood just drove here two days ago from Acapulco?
4. I wonder how many items, food or otherwise, you're currently using or eating have had an illegal alien make or pick or package? How much do we save in having below-minimum wage workers employed? Would inflation balloon if all our products were made by union workers?
Your post has legitimate grounds. Your arguement for is weak and has incredible holes and flaws. Do your research and post your own facts, rather than copy/pasting spammed emails.

[Lgbpop]

3. Yes, we've got legitimate problems with resident aliens in the US. No doubt putting more control of immigration into law would curb future migrants. However, your stated issues are with the legal and illegals already here. Do you think the guy in the car booming loud non-English music in your neighborhood just drove here two days ago from Acapulco?We don't have any problem with resident aliens here, We have a problem with illegal aliens here. The only person here who's lumping all the aliens into one group is you. Also, no one's complaining about immigration - they're complaining about the lack of border enforcement that allows aliens to sneak across the border illegally.

I guess I find myself not agreeing with your argument. It's specious reasoning. The cost of goods here is not the topic of argument. Besides, if you want to talk about the money saved in the economy by the illegals, you have to subtract what the presence of the illegals is costing society. Here in southwest Florida, medical centers with emergency rooms are going bankrupt because so many illegals use the facilities and either don't pay for the services or provide false billing adresses. Schools are hard-pressed to provide learning materials for all the extra students who didn't legally belong here. Florida paid almost $1 billion in fiscal year 2006 for services for illegal aliens! Clearly, this is not an insignificant issue.

[mobo57]

There are strong arguments on all aspects of immigration in the U.S. It is not a “one side or the other” issue, it is much more complex then that. It is an issue of balance that some how must be achieved.
Certain facts are indisputable. First, most immigrants are not highly educated. Second, they are willing to work for less than what many “citizens” want to work for. Third, we all benefit from a low cost labor pool.
Those of us that live here appreciate our lifestyle. While we all have some complaints, generally we are satisfied, otherwise we would seek to live somewhere else. It is this lifestyle that attracts immigrants. Whether they wish to remain in the U.S., or support their families in their own country, it is the rewards from better opportunities that most seek, that is, better paying jobs than what they can obtain in their home country are their first and foremost priority. In short, they generally want our lifestyle.
As a wealthy country with a quality of lifestyle above much of the rest of the world, the U.S. can afford and does benefit from these immigrants and they benefit from us. Example, Mexico’s second biggest revenue source is money sent home from migrants in the U.S. We benefit from lower labor costs for everything from our food to the cost of a car wash. Yet there is a “but” to this equation. That “but” is how much can we absorb before it becomes a burden on us and impacts our lifestyle.
The reality is there is a limit as to how many lower skilled workers the U.S. economy can use. And there is a limit on how many people we can absorb into our other systems before a negative impact is felt. We have a finite amount of resources and needs that at some point, either are, or will be taxed to the breaking point. While we may be that rich uncle that is willing to pay the nephew a good wage for mowing our lawn, we have only so much lawn to mow and don’t need to have a bunch of kids hanging around the house eating our food, making a mess and not contributing.
Every year limits are set by our government as to the number and type of immigrants from each country. While these numbers are not exactly based on what some would consider the best criteria, they are nonetheless determined in such a way as to allow a structured and organized process that benefits both sides by allowing people from the laborer to the highest skilled worker an opportunity to come and contribute and benefit. The process could and needs to be better, but it’s better than nothing.
By not abiding by the process, and allowing unfettered immigration to the U.S., no one benefits. It taxes the labor pool, driving down wages, most particularly in the unskilled or limited skilled market. It taxes the public, as many of these in the lower end of the wage scale need and obtain some sort of public assistance. And it taxes our lifestyle, as we have to divert more of our limited resources from other things, such as good roads, parks, and better schools, to providing for those with limited resources.
Certain arguments on these issues are irresponsible. First, the U.S. has a responsibility to these people for various reasons, usually based upon some argument that our wealth was made at the cost of their sweat. Maybe this was true, 100 years ago, but not today. Most if not all countries protect their resources for their own benefit in some way, whether through tariffs, taxes or out in out nationalization. True, in many countries those that benefit are the upper class, but this is not a problem for the U.S. to address. It is the responsibility of the citizens of those countries, like the British living on this continent did over 200 years ago.
As to the arguments involving the indigenous people, history. Argument as to what happened in the past obtains nothing but intellectual self fulfillment. It is the present and the future that needs to be debated and addressed.
Our lifestyle is being impacted by immigration and there is little we can do about that. What we can do is control how it is impacted. I personally like my lifestyle and appreciate what these immigrants provide for me. I have little trouble with some of my taxes going to fund public services to those that need them. What I do not wish is for my lifestyle to change dramatically. I live in Orange County California for a reason. I appreciate the diversity of the lifestyles and people living here. But I do not live in Mexico City, or Cairo or Seoul, and as such do not wish to see wholesale changes that way.
This is my issue: many of these immigrants want our lifestyle and benefits. They come because they want what we have and what they can get. But many, once here, want us to change, they do not want to assimilate, they want to maintain their culture. It is our systems, beliefs, ethics and culture that made our lifestyle the envy of most of the world. And now they want to change that?

[Shoreguy]

No, it's not an insignificant issue. It's the exact issue. It's the issue we should be debating, not bird feeders and 'I was here first'-ism.
Propose a solution. We could build a 2000ft high electric wall around the US, and it still wouldn't solve the issue of what we do with the humans here already. Last I checked, residents of California have four times the amount of illegals here than the next highest state (Texas). Yet, we have the 7th largest economy in the world.
We have the same problems you have; overcrowding, stressed school systems, etc., yet I fail to see where upping the immigration quota will solve a problem of people who are handed a bill for a $30K hospital emergency and skipping out because they barely make minimum wage washing dishes for 12-14hrs at Claim Jumper.
I'm by no means lumping resident alien, illegal alien, legal alien, martian alien into one group. You have just got to define where the arguement lies...pressing 2 for Spanish, or stopping uncontrolled immigration of illegal humans occupying space in the US, and sucking off resources from underfunded or mismanaged government funded entities.
Putting up a fence is only a partial fix. Demanding English be lawfully enforced as the only language spoken in the US is, aside from bigoted, improbable. What's the alternative to saving the life? Letting the garbage man start weekly corpse collection routes?

I'm getting way off my own point. My point is, generalizing 'ok now stop' immigration reform is much more complex than just tossing up 700 miles of fencing and expecting the problems to go away. Why do you think we have a problem of illegal immigration here? Everyone wants to pass around this stupid email about how much things cost and how much illegals hurt 'our' way of life. Yet, no one is proposing a clearly defined, fair solution that will have immediate impact and equality, while maintaining the very foundation upon which we reside in the US.
You demand, expect, shout, cheer and puff out your chest when Freedom is claimed, but what about those that want, need, seek, desire, plead and beg?

[Lgbpop]

Demanding English be lawfully
enforced as the only language spoken in the US is, aside from bigoted,
improbable.Wildly irrational statement. Countries have offical languages all over the world, why would we be bigoted for doing the same? This statment doesn't hold water, sorry. Go to Iran and call them bigots for having Farsi as the official language. OMG, the French use French (and are smug about it)...you'd say it's not the same, but it is. I'll be damned if I am going to learn 30 other languages as some people would demand. I speak four languages already, but I reserve their use for when I'm abroad. I'm not lazy or arrogant enough to expect others to cater to me; it would be cool if the favor were returned by new arrivals here. To be fair, it's not the immigrants expecting it so much as the liberals here who demand it for some reason.
what about those that want, need, seek, desire, plead and beg?What about them? They're welcome, as long as they abide by our laws and follow established procedure. We DO have a legal way of coming here, you know. Have for 140 years now. You seem to be ignoring that. We should be open-minded, not empty-headed about this.

[Shoreguy]

It' not wildly irrational. I only speak/read/write English. I know enough other languages to say Cervesa for beer, Sashimi for raw fish, and Linux to overcome M$ shortcomings. Those official languages run both ways. English is by far the global language of choice in all countries wishing to work with the global media and economy. If we were to impose an English-only nation, do you think it would suddenly halt all humans coming here to second guess their decision? Are you saying that our bilingual nation is the fault of only the illegal aliens?
"Abide by our laws and follow established procedure." Again, that's a very nice statement to wish for. But here in the real world we need to find a solution for those seeking a better way of life so badly they'd risk everything to get here. Propose something.
What if we took in all the war refugee's from Iraq? 50k per month currently. Want them all to speak English and have US currency on hand to pay their way through the emergency room for dressing their wounds or stuffing them into housing or schools? Good thing we can turn a blind eye to that and push it off on their neighbors to deal with.
I'm not being close-minded. On the contrary, I'm open to any and all proposals that would meet the criteria of legal, fair and freedom-based. Propose a solution to illegal aliens that would solve the mixing-bowl analogy. If you can, I'm sure you'd run unopposed for president.

[Lgbpop]

Sorry, I'm going to leave this "discussion" with these observations:

•You're not serious, or if you are your argument is anything but cogent. Full of non-sequiturs, for example:If we were to impose an English-only nation, do you think it would suddenly halt all humans coming here to second guess their decision?You might as well ask, "Do you walk to school or take a lunch?" The first half of your question--establishing an official language--has nothing to do with immigration. Furthermore, YOU'RE the only person who makes that connection! Making English the official language would help to assimilate legal immigrants, as it did years ago. People coming here all through the 1800s and 1900s learned English just fine and were proud to do so because it identified them and their kids as Americans. Only in the past 30 years have the liberals decided that immigrants aren't smart enough to learn English on their own anymore, and that we must balkanize ourselves to make things easier for new arrivals.

Are you saying that our bilingual nation is the fault of only the illegal aliens?No, I am not saying that. What I said is what I meant to say, nothing more. If you want to argue with what I said, please read what I said:I'm not lazy or arrogant enough to expect others to cater to me; it would be cool if the favor were returned by new arrivals here. To be fair, it's not the immigrants expecting it so much as the liberals here who demand it for some reason.

One more non sequitur:Propose a solution to illegal aliens that would solve the mixing-bowl analogy.The melting-pot image of America has nothing to do with the illigal alien problem. Assimilation should be a goal of legal immigrants. Enforcing our border and immigration laws would solve the illegal alien problem. Two completely separate issues. Again, you're the only one confusing the two here. Furthermore, the argument that "they're here, there's nothing that can be done" is simplistic. 12 million came here; therefore, it's physically possible for 12 million to retrace their steps home. I'm saying let's help speed up that process. It'll take 20 more years, so let's get started. To say it won't work is silly, since it hasn't been tried yet.

You're right, this has gotten away from the original question which seemed to be about illegal immigration, even though the example given was about freeloaders. We have the market cornered on them already with our homegrown ones, and those who feel we need to continue supporting the freeloaders.

The only thing that surprises me anymore is how many people still want to come here when the America they seek is being dismantled brick by brick from within.

[j.m@talk]

Put a fence up around Merika ...... Might keep you mofo's in ;)

[Shoreguy]

You're correct. I normally would have proof read that. No, I was trying to cover a couple different topics at once. As I seem to be the only one taking the left, you can please excuse me for having to discuss all the topics and occasionally mashing thoughts. My aim was to point out that not once has an official language stopped people in their tracks for fear of non-communication. The intermingled complaint of multi-lingual existence has nothing to do with illegal immigration, but has everything to do with equality, freedom and liberty. Sure, make everyone learn English as their primary language. I've got no problem with that. But make sure that the legal immigrants have to take a literacy course before they can apply for residency. Then, what the hell do you do with the hundreds of thousands already here?
Cut off the sieve inflow. check. Now what? You still have to deal with overcrowded schools, multi-lingual communication, overburdoned social systems, and increasing cost of living on all levels.
My original arguement got mangled along the way. Bushmaster opened with a very limited and poorly thought out statement. My point is freedom and liberty have a price and consideration as well. Illegal immigration DOES need addressing, but we need to do it in accordance with our global stance and founding. They're already here...cutting off the border is only a partial solution to the larger issues. BM's suggestion that these people are all freeloading is extremely simplistic. These people work, build and die for our country, just as his forefathers did generations ago.

[Shoreguy]

Put a fence up around Merika ...... Might keep you mofo's in ;)
Don't get snippy just because your days of colonization are long over. :D

[j.m@talk]

I dunno ........ We might come back ......... We'z busy at the moment wiv Chelsea Flower Show (http://www.rhs.org.uk/chelsea/2007/index.asp) ........ No time to go invadin' :t

[mireland]

this ain't NEARLY as interesting as a Mac vs PC thread... :rolleyes:

[bushmaster]

Nice when work keeps me away for awhile.

[mobo57]

How about this for a automatic phone system at the INS:

"GOOD MORNING, WELCOME TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA."

"Press "1" if you speak English."
"Press '2' to disconnect until you can"
:rolleyes:

[j.m@talk]

'2'.......Click ....... ahhhhhh carp I meant to press '1'....... Hello hello ........... Kick, punch, kick again....... Stoopid' fing :mad: