Morally unforgivable, or scientifically justified

[U-96]

It could help the blind and visually impaired, but does the end justify the means?
I like cats, but I can see the value of the research. If you fancy an interesting home project with your PC and a webcam, read this:
(strong stomach recommended)

Computer uses cat's brain to see
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_468000/468857.stm

[Roy]

Consider me a "cat's person". I have been owned by cats for most of my life.

I do not have a problem with calling upon this higher life form to help us find our way in their world.

[CMonster]

Enter the BORG

[Swarozyc]

In my opinion it is as justified as running over an animal on the road--you feel bad abut it, but you won't, just because of that, leave your car, walk to work and never drive again. The only difference is that the process of reaching a theory in science is substantially longer than your ride to work and requires multiple experimental objects that might just die or suffer in the process, though the outcome is the same--you either get the desired result or not!
hmm...does that sound right? /forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Swarozyc (edited 10-11-99).]

[CMonster]

And just what if an alien species felt that way about us earthlings? Is it then okay for them to torture and torment us in the name of their science and to treat their ailing alien physiologies?

My philosophy has always been if you are really hungry then eat the cat, but to perform the same experiments over and over again makes me wonder...

Why is it that we are so determined not to accept the natural order of things? Is it because nature sucks?

[daveleau]

I am a researcher and I work with mother rats and their pups.

Am I an advocate? I still see a good and a bad side.

The good:
1)Where would we be without research like this? We'd be in the dark ages still fighting the plague or smallpox or polio.
2) Animals are required to be anesthetized if they are going to experience pain. VERY RARELY do animals suffer or as CMonster said 'tortured'
3) A woos answer but: they are bred for it.

The bad:
1) In my lab there is a good amount of waste. Animals are often over-ordered because it is better to have too many than too little. You can imaging what occurs to the 'overstock'


There is always going to be an exception to a rule. Animals feeling pain in medical research is one of them. It occurs very rarely. If these animals were free, they would die a more grissly death of starvation because they are generations away from the inherent instincts. I guess that is how I sleep at night. I must admit, it is often hard and I do question it. I always come back to the realization that we are doing no damage to the species as a whole and we are doing great work for the human race. The way DOES justify the means in MOST cases.

Just my thoughts from an 'insider'

[daveleau]

Just a little addition /forum/smile.gif

I am a cat lover and I have two myself, but that research is amazing and fascinating. If you understand the science behind it and the enigma the brain has been, you see it too.

[nilknarf]

I love cats too, but this is too cool.

I think I'll leave the moral arguments to someone else.
/forum/smile.gif

[KillerBug]

I am a cat lover too, but if you can make a blind man see again with cats that would be put to death in the pound anyway, go to it, they are at leas pampered before they die this way.

[pickel]

I'm sure, humanity is alot better off thru the experimentation and the use of non human
subjects. When I used to go up to the hospital, I'd see the poor old dogs waiting their turn for whatever, and I just wanted to cut them losse. Just .PLEASE, leave my two
little friends out of it .They do more good
helping get through my life, than it would be without them. When you have a friend that will listen to you without question or opinion, esspecially on an extermely bad day
you find that no experiment, or product of such can replace the peace of mind and comfort you can get from these little guys.
They can be just as aggrevating, but that's all part of a relationship, Just how I feel
\

The Pickel

I may have a one sided veiw, but this is my story and I'm stickin' to it. I have a BIG oak tree in my back yard that supports a healthy squirrel population. You've all seen the movies of the African plains and the Chetah presuing the Wildabeast.My tom cat of about 20lbs., is a real preditor.My female cat is a real lady. When I look out of my kitchen window and see him stacking a squirrel,and I'm not blood thirsty , I can feel his excitement and anticipation. This is the wild at your own back door. 99 times out 100 the squirrel gets safely back to his tree. That's the the natural order of things are and to be able to an firsthand observor
is awesome in itself.You see him in his world
and it's hard to figure how the same entity
can crawl up on your chest and give and receive the LOVE that is exchanged between
two different speices.

[This message has been edited by pickel (edited 10-13-99).]

[CMonster]

I realize that we are dealing with "lower" lifeforms that certainly do not say "Hey! That is my child, or brother, or friend!" But killing one human being does not harm the entire species either.

I am kind of a scientist first, I value medical research, my children have reaped many of the benefits such as immunization. I am not advocating a return to the "dark ages" by any means. But there is an undeniable moral implication here that should also not be ignored. Pain and terror is measured in more ways than crying - just the rrestriction of movement is terrible unpleasant to most cats.

I know that there are many labs doing the same research but not sharing data because many companies want to be the only ones who profit from their discoveries.

But still the question remains unanswered, if (and that is a big IF) a vastly superior creature were to use your brother or child or mother - or perhaps you, in an experiment where (while of course feeling no pain) your skull were removed and electrodes were implanted in your brain ..you see where I am going?

I have watched the anti-fur people protesting in nearby Hollywood, where a group of them literaly pushed a homeless man out of their way and into the gutter.

Do I care about animals or people?

One thing I might like to do is to barbecue a dog on a spit in front of the PETA headquarters, while wearing alligator boots, leather chaps, a snake skin belt, a fur coat, and a coon-skin hat, and carrying an assault rifle - and you could throw in an ivory buckle, a bearclaw necklace, and a few eagle feathers!

My point? Every coin has two faces /forum/wink.gif

~edit; one more thing, the cities could save a lot of money if they combined the Dept of Animal Regulation with the Prison system - unnecessary duplication of labor could be handled by layoffs and the prisoners could eat the animals so the food bills would drop also;

Imagine: Kitten-pot-pie, python stew, pitbull steak, and roast rotwiler - and leftover roast rotwiler sandwitches with lettuce, tomatoe, and mayo the next day ummmm mmmm good!

[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 10-12-99).]

[Joel Kleppinger]

My pillow handles that task for me quite well. /forum/smile.gif

[daveleau]

I agree completely CMonster. There are two sides. I like your analogy! /forum/smile.gif

One thing that is often thought of that should be made clear is that scientists and the companies that furnish animals do not go around neighborhoods or to the local pound to get their subjects. First, that would be immoral because they are someone's pet. Most of all, these animals are not controlled. A scientist must account for everything and there can be no variability in animals. Thus they must be bred. Pure bred.

CMonster- I see your point about the alien thing. The big diffeence is that in most of the animals used, their memory is extremely short, unlike ours. Thus anything that is done is often forgotten moments later unless it is repeated many times.

Good thread guys! /forum/smile.gif

[cwizard]

I started not to read this thread but was intrigued by the tital.

Unless you're Dr. Dolittle, how can you say that an animal's memory is short? Seems to me that most animals are smarter than humans because they can understand human talk but can you understand their language?

Short memory? They learn complex task, and then teach it to others. Doesn't sound like limited memory to me. And I did a great deal of work in psychological learning theory.

Human beings have dominance over other life forms simply because they can destroy on a big scale and don't think twice about it. There is no creature too big or too small that won't fall. Unfortunately, this parasitic attitude will ultimately wipe out all life forms.

Does the end justify the means? Not when the ultimate end is the ulitmate end.

[U-96]

I'm real glad this is being responded to with well-argued points. It never ceases to amaze me what Sysopt members do/have done for a living. Researchers, psychologists, etc. fully qualified and experienced to argue from the 'scientific progress' side of the fence.
I didn't intend (despite the title) to start a moral discussion, just to draw attention to what sounded like an amazing experiment. However, animal experimentation is an emotive subject, and I couldn't really ignore that side of it.

I live about 2 miles down the road from a farm which was used for breeding cats for scientific experimentation. Until it closed down this line of business this summer, animal rights protestors and anti-vivisectionists have protested there every week for the last two years. The farm owner didn't experiment himself, he just bred cats to feed his family and pay his mortgage, but he was pressured into closing.
Ironic thing is that all the remaining cats were distributed to animal welfare charities, who said they were the fittest cats that had ever come into their care.
As daveleau has said, at least to the point of experimentation, test animals are incredibly well treated. They have to be in order to yield reliable data in whatever tests - destructive or non-destructive - they may be involved in.

To reduce animal testing, which is often questionable from the point of 'simulating' human biological reaction in another species, perhaps CMonster's analogy could be taken further, to allow voluntary non-invasive medical testing on prisoners in return for a reduction of sentence. Sure the civil liberties people would complain, but if the pharmaceutical companies invested in prisoner healthcare because they get a return, then everyone wins. Just a thought.

u-96

Thought for the future:
Is that cat available in a USB version?

[daveleau]

U-96- you must have some comedy history behind you or something. These last two posts you've made have really cracked me up (one was in another thread).

Just to qualify what I said earlier:
MOST Animals do have short memories in comparison to humans. Rats, mice and rabbits have extrmemly short short term memories. Once it is engrained into a long term memory, then I would agree. That would have to be a result of a repeated act. I wish there was another route for this to go on. If there was another route, like U-96's, it would be ideal. We do not live in an ideal world though. To give up animals for research is to give up hope for ourselves.

[U-96]

Sorry to disappoint, daveleau, but I work in educational fundraising and databases. I guess I need a sense of humour for that, just like the guy who writes my paycheck.
U-96

P.S. oh yeah, in my post further up, when I said the farmer breeds cats to feed his family, don't take that literally. /forum/wink.gif



[This message has been edited by U-96 (edited 10-15-99).]