socket 754 vs 939, and AGP vs PCI-express

[lbeachmike]

Hi there -

I currently own a Gigabyte mobo which I believe to be partially fried. I'm thinking this might be a good opportunity to upgrade to a newer board but don't want to have to replace all key components.

My current board is a socket 754 board. It also has an AGP slot.

My two naive questions -

1. Do any new boards support both socket 939 and 754 or is there any backwards compatibility?

2. Do any new boards have both AGP and PCI-express slots?

I'm also wondering if any of the newer boards come with on-board integrated Wireless-G support.

Thanks.

Mike

[danthemanohhyea]

as far as i know.. socket 939 and 754 are totally different in their pin arrangement, so that makes having a motherboard that supports both pretty impossible
i'm not sure if some manufacturer has made one that has both sockets but i dont think so..

[lbeachmike]

Thanks - how about question # 2? Are there any boards out there which support both AGP and PCI express?

Thanks.

Mike

[Recordlord]

ASRock K8 COMBO-Z Socket 754 and 939 ULi M1689 ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail $75.25

No Mobos either will have SLI, PCI express or AGP.

I understand your dilema you have a AGP VC and a 754 chip. Well i would suggest just getting another 754 board. Save your money for a 939 rig with PCI express.

[danthemanohhyea]

ASRock K8 COMBO-Z Socket 754 and 939 ULi M1689 ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail $75.25

i stand corrected, forgive me for my error :D

[lbeachmike]

Thanks for the info and advice, Recordlord - (and I do forgive you for your error, DanTheMan!)

Recordlord - you said "No Mobos either will have SLI, PCI express or AGP."

Excuse my ignorance, but what is SLI?

Also - are you saying that there are no mobos out there that support both PCI express and AGP configs? Want to make sure I understand correctly.

Thanks.

Mike

[danthemanohhyea]

ok.. i know what SLI is so i can help this time!

anyway
SLI is a feature where the motherboard has 2 PCI-Express x16 slots. With this, you can use 2 IDENTICAL video cards that are compatible with SLI and you get the graphical power of those 2 video cards combined into one. So its more or less using 2 (identical only) video cards as one. SLI is Nvidia only, Crossfire is what ATI calls their version of it.

edit:
heres a link to learn about SLI
http://www.slizone.com/page/slizone_learn.html

[Midknyte]

there is one chipset (the aforementioned ULI) that supports AGP and PCIe, but i'm not sure how good it really is. it's brand spanking new. none of the VIA or Nvidia offerings have that.

you could just get a normal 754/AGP board for now. by the time you actually upgrade to PCIe and a 939, there will probably be a better chipset.

[lbeachmike]

Budget it not too much of an issue, as long as it's within reason. I'm really looking to get the best of what's out there to have a really fast-running system with high-reliability and one which is flexible to accomodate new offerings or whatever expansion needs I might have.

I'm not particularly thrilled with my current Gigabyte mobo, firstly because it broke, but secondly because the design is poor with one or two PCI slots rendered useless due to the way the board is laid out and cables/connectors obstructing slots.

I like gaming, but it's not a primary function of my machine. I just want to have a machine that extremely responsive, minimizing delays to do much of anything and so that a ton of stuff can run simultaneously without bogging things down, and with flexibility for expansion.

I don't have a good understanding of the difference that I'd recognize between going with a 939 board vs 754 and a PCI-express vs AGP. Would the differences be noticable in every-day use for a power-user?

Thanks.

Mike

[Recordlord]

Why buy a 939 socket?? They are upgradeable. AMD stopped shipping 754 pin chips(dead). 939 sockets will handle future upgrades to over 6000+ or should. 754 sockets only go to 3700+.

MSI K8N Neo4 Platinum Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 Ultra ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail $129.00.

AMD Athlon 64 3200+ Venice 1GHz FSB 512KB L2 Cache Socket 939 Processor - Retail $190.00

SAPPHIRE 100125L Radeon X800GT 128MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail $139.00

Under $500.00 upgrade last you for 3 or 4 years.

[lbeachmike]

Thanks for the sound advice.

Now, what is the difference between Venice, San Diego, Clawhammer, Winchester, etc.?

Also, is an X2 processor compatible with any socket 939 mobo? In other words, with any 939 mobo, can I later decide to upgrade to an X2 processor?

Thanks.

mrk

[Midknyte]

Venice, Sandiego, etc are built in different die sizes 130nm, 90nm, and have varying caches. 512K or 1MB.

Most 939 boards can take an X2 with just a bios upgrade. Check that before you buy.

[Peter M]

Why buy a 939 socket?? They are upgradeable. AMD stopped shipping 754 pin chips(dead).

Not true at all. S754 is alive and well, just the segment has changed - it's mobile/budget platform now. 64-bit enabled Semprons, Turions, and also (coming soon) E-step Athlon64 processors are being made and sold for socket-754.

S939 spans the higher performance range, but has no more longevity left than S754.

[lbeachmike]

Okay - just as I was about to put in my order for my new 939 mobo and new Athlon 64 X2 3800+ Dual Core Processor ....

Is this a reasonable upgrade path from a socket 754 Athlon 64+ 3200 based machine or is this a waste of money?

Also, can anybody better explain the difference between Venice, San Diego, etc. - different die sizes and cache size, okay - which is the best performer? Unfortunately I don't have sufficient time and brain capacity for my usual extensive research - so, I'm relying on you guys to lead me in the right direction on this one :)

Thanks for all the help and advice.

Mike

[Midknyte]

it doesn't matter, because there is only one 3800+ X2 core ATM. :p here's some more detailed info, though.

http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/200508011/athlon_64_x2_3800-01.html
Toledo= dual core w/ 1MB caches
Manchester= dual core w/ 512K caches

if you notice, the AMD X2s go up in ranking by clockspeed and cache. the 4200 and 4400 have the same clockspeed, but the 4400 has 1MB cache versus 512K in the 4200.

here's some info on older cores:
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2118

[lbeachmike]

Okay - great info - I'm appreciative! So, the million-dollar question (well, okay, it's really more like a $400 question) - will this be a noticable leap in day-to-day performance of my machine moving up from a socket 754 Athlon 64 3200+ ???

Anxiously awaiting to give more money to NewEgg and ZipZoom ....

Mike

[Midknyte]

are you kidding? the X2s are hella fast, especially if you run stuff like photoshop.

there's a few X2 review links in Best of CPUs
Best of CPU's and Overclocking (http://www.sysopt.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=181413)

go through the best of threads before you post more questions.

I thought you ordered it already?

[BillGill22]

I am in the same dilemma. I have a DFI LanParty UT NF3 250 socket 754 with a 2800+ and am looking for an upgrade. I think I am going to get the 3700+ 754 for about $175 OEM because i have a 6800GT and am not willing to have to aprt with that at the moment.

One board I did consider was the ASrock 939 Dual SATA [$70} which uses the ULI 1695 chipset and takes either AGP of PCIe 16x video cards. Can also use socket 940. Interesting budget board that performs well. I built one for a friend who got that board and the 3700+ 939 and wasn't ready to part with his 9800 Pro [well he's ready just doesn't have the cash]. Make sure you get the latest bios. It is purring like a kitten for him. I thought about it but the lack of firewire is an issue as I transfer a lot of home movies and I still love the bios options on my DFI.

Back to why I think I'll stay with the 3700+ 754 upgrade. My vid card should be good for another year at least. The DFI board just rocks. And by the time this thing becomes pokey AMD will have the M2 processors out and they will use socket 940. Google it. So while 939 still has an upgrade path I wonder how much that socket in the future of AMD procs? By that time a PCIe 7800 GT should be a decent card as something new would be out. In general I like to buy last year's hottest stuff today at half the price.

[orkboss]

There is a board supporting both AGP and PCI-E. I have one, It is a socket 939 ECS K8T890-A with SATA, Raid and other stuff using a via chipset. But if you like gaming and money is no option then don't both with this as I already think I need a PCI -e card as the AGP is jerko vision unlessplaying a game made a few years ago.

[lbeachmike]

Oh, it seems that I never updated this particular thread and stated what I decided upon.

I went with the ASRock939Dual, which I thought was the only mobo out there with support for both AGP and PCI-E, but I guess I missed at least one alternate ;)

In a quick stare-and-compare of features from the ECS board mentioned above - I see a couple of obvious feature differences, but I'm not knowledgeable on architecture or performance comparisons -

ASRock939Dual - has an on-board SATA2 header as well as two on-board SATA1. I'd prefer more on-board SATA (particularly SATA2), but this was the compromise for getting the dual video card support. Memory support of four slots for up to 4 gig.

The ECS board has an additional expansion slot and particularly an additional 1xPCI-E slot, which I'd prefer to have. Has one less SATA port and no SATA2 from what I can see. SATA2 expansion cards are currently a little pricey but will probably drop quickly. Only two memory slots with up to 2 gig.

Again, I'm not knowledgable in the differences between chipsets. Nor do I know anything about the respective manufacturer reputations.

All I can say is that I'm particularly happy with my new ASRock mobo. It's a very well-designed board of high quality and overall ease of use - and a refreshing change from my very poorly designed Gigabyte mobo.

I'm not big into gaming, so my AGP card will suit my needs for just long enough before there become enough compelling reasons for the next upgrade.

My only criticism of ASRock would probably be true of almost all mobo manufacturers - improve the website so that the driver downloads are more clear including release dates so it's simple to track if you are up-to-date.

Anybody else out there own either of these two?

[lbeachmike]

Make sure you get the latest bios. It is purring like a kitten for him.

I noticed they added BIOS v 1.30 - release notes are poor. It seems to refer to a list of processors and versions, none of which I own. Not sure if that's the only relevance to the update. I've been hesitant to flash it up because it's been working well for me thus far.

Thoughts?

(Incidentally, I should probably just give them a call - ASRock's phone support was excellent when I needed answers to a couple things.)

[BillGill22]

Yeah, the ASrock I built for a friend has bios 1.2. My rule of thumb with bios updates is unless the bios fixes something that bothers you or adds a feature you want to use don't mess with it if all is working well.

I agree it is a decent budget board and has a nice level of upgrade potential with the ability to take 939 or 940 cpus.

For those looking to upgrade chipsets but don't have the cash for a new pcie video card look at motherboards with the nvidia 6100 chipset that has integrated video and pcie 16x slot. You can use the on board video until you can afford the cash for a new video card [will do most light weight games but not the newer FPS]. These boards come in 939 and 754 flavors. Biostar and Asrock have some on the market now. ATI has a similar chipset called X200 but many reviewers seem to favor the nvidia. Elitegroup makes an ATI board. These boards make excellent media center boards and in-between upgrade boards. I am going to get one to throw in my 64 2800+ 754 once I get the 3700+.

[orkboss]

In defence of the ECS board I will say it was significantly cheaper than the other 939 boards available on ebuyer. Cheap enough to get me started on a 939 set up, get my PCIe card and then ditch the Mobo for a Mobo with better chipset. Or by that time a total new board will have come out or a new retro trend where everyone goes back to super socket seven.