File sharing, FAT32, and NTFS

[hotwinduk]

Greetings all,

I have a computer running Windows XP Home and one that runs Windows 98.

I want to network them with wireless network cards.

XP uses NTFS and 98 uses FAT32.

Will I be able to share files between the two PCs across the network?

Or do both PCs have to be using the same file system?

[kwebb]

File system is irrelevant over a windows network. Makes absolutely no difference. FAT, FAT32, NTFS and so on. You'll be fine.

[Midknyte]

Kwebb is correct. The OS is the "translator" to the file system used on the local system.

[BipolarBill]

To further clarify, data travels over a network in bits and bytes that make up data packets. TCP is TCP.

When you access a network share, you are telling that PC's operating system what you want. That OS then fetches it for you in TCP/IP form. You don't really have direct access to a networked hard drive - only permission for that PC to serve you.

[hotwinduk]

Thanks, gents.

I'm glad about that because I wasn't happy about converting the XP hard drive to FAT32.

It must be the same kind of thing with floppy disks, because Windows XP can only format floppy disks using FAT32, not NTFS, but floppy disks can still be used with an NTFS operating system.

Anyone know why that is the case?

Why can't floppy disks be formatted to use NTFS?

[BipolarBill]

Correction - Windows floppies are formatted with FAT(16). Every version of Windows made can read and write FAT16. Floppies can't be formatted with FAT32.

Floppies can't be NTFS. Why would you want to use NTFS anyway? If you did, the floppy would only work Win2000/XP. Most people want their floppies to be compatible with as many OSes as possible.

Can I ask why you're so fixated on file formats?

[Midknyte]

floppies are actually fat12.

there is so much overhead that ntfs would be a waste on a floppy.

http://www.ntfs.com/ntfs_vs_fat.htm

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/file/fat.htm

[BipolarBill]

I stand (sit, actually) corrected. ;)

[Comage]

I remember the last time I networked 2 Home PCs, one with XP and one with 98, I had a little bit of an oddity problem.

Transferring files one way (98 -> 2000) resulted in very slow speeds. Transferring files the other way was at a full 100 MBps.

http://www.sysopt.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88791&highlight=transferring

You might want to set the 98 computer to full permissions or something, and do all the sending/receiving using the XP computer. The login interface for 98 is quite a bit of the PITA.

*Edit*: Sorry it was Win2k, not XP.

[hotwinduk]

Thanks, gents.

BPB, I'm not fixated by file systems, I just find them confusing.

FAT32 and NTFS drives can't read or copy one another's data, but they can all use floppy disks formatted with FAT12.

Why can't they make it so that a FAT32 drive can interact with an NTFS drive in the same way so that they can share data with each as they can over a network?

That's why I find it confusing.

[Midknyte]

it's not the file systems themselves; it's the operating systems. win9x systems cannot natively read ntfs.

[Comage]

You know, there are quite a few 3rd party utilities that allow for access to NTFS partitions using Win98.

[BipolarBill]

Originally posted by hotwinduk
FAT32 and NTFS drives can't read or copy one another's data, but they can all use floppy disks formatted with FAT12.

Why can't they make it so that a FAT32 drive can interact with an NTFS drive in the same way so that they can share data with each as they can over a network? Here we are again. Drives can't talk to one another at all. Drives and files systems are as dumb as rocks. Operating Systems do the talking. An operating system can make use of any file system that it was designed to. Windows 95, 98 and ME were not designed to use NTFS. Win95a was not designed to use FAT32.

Like I said, you're focusing too tightly on the file system when you should be directing your thoughts to your operating system's capabilities.

Both Midknyte and I are trying to make you understand this and you're not "getting it".

[hotwinduk]

Well, if what Comage says is correct -
there are quite a few 3rd party utilities that allow for access to NTFS partitions using Win98 - then it isn't the operating system, because just by loading a utility inter-file-system sharing can be achieved.

What you're saying is like blaming the operating system because it can't wordprocess.

If you add a wordprocessor it can.

So, it obviously isn't an inbuilt lack of capacity of Windows, just a lack of the right software.

[Midknyte]

yes it IS the operating system. Like I said, win98 does not have NATIVE NTFS support. that means you must use a third party software to translate for you. just because win98 can read NTFS with a third party app doesn't mean it can make full use of it. disk quotas, volume mount points, etc. may not be available to win98 because it was never meant to use NTFS. This is only for drives on the local system (like in a dual boot scenario).

When you go across a network, the file system on the remote workstation doesn't make a diff. the operating systems are communicating with each other.

say a win98 system requests a file from a winxp system. win98 sends the request to winxp, then winxp looks for the file and sends the file back to the win98 system. win98 is NOT directly accessing the NTFS on the remote system. win98 doesn't need a third party app for this. we have been networking win95/98 FAT16/32 systems to WinNT4/2K/2K3 NTFS systems for years.

[Comage]

Hi guys, sorry if I sounded vague up there, but here are the solutions that offer NTFS access under Win98. Note that some of them only allow read-only access:

http://www.sysinternals.com/Utilities/NtfsWindows98.html
This only allows access of NTFS from Win98 itself.

http://is-it-true.org/nt/atips/atips174.shtml
This allows for access of NTFS from DOS as well.

http://www.sharewareplaza.com/Paragon-NTFS-for-Win98-download_9418.html
Another one with an interface similar to Partition Magic

Hope it helps. :t

[hotwinduk]

Thanks for that info, Comage.

I was wondering if when you make a full system backup or master image on a FAT32 system and then reformat the drive to NTFS, will you be able to restore the backup or master image to the changed file system?

Because I loaded Windows XP SP2 on a new PC and used FAT32 in order to be able to transfer files from a FAT32 drive from another PC.

I read that it's not a good idea to change from FAT32 to NTFS without reformatting, so I'm wondering if restoring a backup to a drive on which the file system has been changed from FAT32 to NTFS can be achieved.

In othe words, when the files are backed up, is the file system also backed up, or are only the files backed up?

[Midknyte]

if you're talking about ghost, then the partition is completely copied down to the file system. when you do a restore, it will restore the drive to whatever file system you had when you made the image. you can convert from fat32 to ntfs within win2k/xp, but you can't go from ntfs to fat32 without a third party app.

[Comage]

Originally posted by hotwinduk
Thanks for that info, Comage.

I was wondering if when you make a full system backup or master image on a FAT32 system and then reformat the drive to NTFS, will you be able to restore the backup or master image to the changed file system?

Because I loaded Windows XP SP2 on a new PC and used FAT32 in order to be able to transfer files from a FAT32 drive from another PC.

I read that it's not a good idea to change from FAT32 to NTFS without reformatting, so I'm wondering if restoring a backup to a drive on which the file system has been changed from FAT32 to NTFS can be achieved.

In othe words, when the files are backed up, is the file system also backed up, or are only the files backed up?

Personally, I would always format it to NTFS first (to get 4k clusters instead of 512-bytes). And then I would re-install my OS and manually move all my stuffs over, including re-installing of each and every required application.

There may be a better method to this; I wonder if any of you guys have a good insight to this, as I am wondering about this too. :)

[hotwinduk]

Thanks for the input, gents.

That's what I read about - the 512-byte clusters that result when you convert a full drive from FAT32 to NTFS.

Apparently they slow the system down chronically.

Okay then that's what I'll have to do unless someone knows of a quicker workaround.

[Midknyte]

you can just convert the fat32 part to ntfs, then defrag the drive.

convert c: /fs:ntfs

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/maintain/convertfat.mspx

[Comage]

Hi Midknyte, the last I remember, this method to convert FAT32 to NTFS will result in 512-bytes clusters as well, by default.

I remember that to get 4k bytes clusters, you would need to re-align the data (?) on the drive.

The reason for this is FAT32 might be using a different cluster size depending on the capacity of the partition, so Win2k/XP will switch to a default of 512-byte clusters.

Or I may be wrong? :t

[Midknyte]

yeah. unless you used winxp to format in fat32, you gotta align for 4k clusters first:
http://aumha.org/win5/a/ntfscvt.php

basically, if you used winxp to format to fat32, you're good to go.

not sure how long it will take, but it might be worth it to keep your system intact.