Istuken
05-01-2005, 12:06 AM
I already know HTML, and a friend that runs a buisness asked me to make him a website. What programming languages should I learn? Should i learn XML DHTML XHTML or stick with the regular HTML? What programs will I need?
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ScaryBinary
05-01-2005, 08:47 AM
Start with the basics...HTML is good. XHTML is basically the same thing as HTML 4 with a few more rules, so if you know HTML learning XHTML shouldn't be tough.
Learn CSS and some Javascript.
These three tools (HTML, CSS, and Javascript) are all you should need to build a useful, well-designed web-site. The only exception is if you'll need to be building web-pages with dynamic content, like if you need to grab information from a database and put it on the website. If you need to do this, then you'll have to learn a server-side scripting language like php, perl, or ASP (I prefer php, but that's just me).
If you'll also be doing the actual administration and maintenance of the website, it wouldn't hurt to become familiar with the webserver being used (for example, Apache or IIS).
The FAQ in this forum has some links to various websites that will help you get started. There are also many other posts in this forum with similar questions, so do a search for the languages you're interested in and see what pops up.
Learn CSS and some Javascript.
These three tools (HTML, CSS, and Javascript) are all you should need to build a useful, well-designed web-site. The only exception is if you'll need to be building web-pages with dynamic content, like if you need to grab information from a database and put it on the website. If you need to do this, then you'll have to learn a server-side scripting language like php, perl, or ASP (I prefer php, but that's just me).
If you'll also be doing the actual administration and maintenance of the website, it wouldn't hurt to become familiar with the webserver being used (for example, Apache or IIS).
The FAQ in this forum has some links to various websites that will help you get started. There are also many other posts in this forum with similar questions, so do a search for the languages you're interested in and see what pops up.
tantone
05-04-2005, 05:35 PM
Ditto on php. ASP is limited in it's usage since many hosting plans you'll find may not support it. But between php and mysql, the world is your oyster.
Periodically validate your xhtml code to see where you're not meeting the xhtml requirements at http://validator.w3.org/. You also validate your CSS there.
Periodically validate your xhtml code to see where you're not meeting the xhtml requirements at http://validator.w3.org/. You also validate your CSS there.
ukulele
05-10-2005, 06:05 PM
Macromedia Flash and a good GUI based editor would be the next step. I recently purchased Macromedia StudioMX with Flash Pro and it's awesome stuff. If you want a quick GUI editor that is cheap and powerful try Sitespinner2. It works seamlessly with raw code and really takes the work out of page layout, ftp and future page changes. For scripting, learn Python. Any decent server setup supports it now and it's got all the other ones beat when it comes to ease of use, small file size and versatility.
tantone
05-10-2005, 06:12 PM
Flash is pretty common, so yeah, that'd be a good one if you want to venture into the more animated.
A word of caution on that though. It's really easy to get carried away with Flash, and instead of making people want to go further into the site it'll make 'em want to leave.
A bit in the right places can make all the difference.
A word of caution on that though. It's really easy to get carried away with Flash, and instead of making people want to go further into the site it'll make 'em want to leave.
A bit in the right places can make all the difference.
ukulele
05-10-2005, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by tantone
Flash is pretty common, so yeah, that'd be a good one if you want to venture into the more animated.
A word of caution on that though. It's really easy to get carried away with Flash, and instead of making people want to go further into the site it'll make 'em want to leave.
A bit in the right places can make all the difference.
A good example of that is Fox News. What an abortion that turned into, but for a real artist Flash is just another tool, no matter how much it's used.
Times they are a changin'. With advanced programming interfaces like Flash, Fireworks and Freehand, combined with advanced GUI interfaces like Dreamweaver and Site spinner, CSS and HTML will soon be obsolete all together, and IMO, good riddance. It's about time web page construction got standardized into a GUI with standardized layouts, standardized tools, standardized file type interchange and Auto scripting like FlashPro now offers. You had best get on the train before it leaves us all behind. Adobe is fast becoming the leader now in cross platform information exchange and with the recent purchase of Macromedia will out flank Microsoft overnight with media presentation, e-learning and animated web sites. We can say goodbye once an for all to the limited and archaic Powerpoint and Gif animation days. If you already know HTML then move on to advanced presentation techniques and don't look back.
Flash is pretty common, so yeah, that'd be a good one if you want to venture into the more animated.
A word of caution on that though. It's really easy to get carried away with Flash, and instead of making people want to go further into the site it'll make 'em want to leave.
A bit in the right places can make all the difference.
A good example of that is Fox News. What an abortion that turned into, but for a real artist Flash is just another tool, no matter how much it's used.
Times they are a changin'. With advanced programming interfaces like Flash, Fireworks and Freehand, combined with advanced GUI interfaces like Dreamweaver and Site spinner, CSS and HTML will soon be obsolete all together, and IMO, good riddance. It's about time web page construction got standardized into a GUI with standardized layouts, standardized tools, standardized file type interchange and Auto scripting like FlashPro now offers. You had best get on the train before it leaves us all behind. Adobe is fast becoming the leader now in cross platform information exchange and with the recent purchase of Macromedia will out flank Microsoft overnight with media presentation, e-learning and animated web sites. We can say goodbye once an for all to the limited and archaic Powerpoint and Gif animation days. If you already know HTML then move on to advanced presentation techniques and don't look back.
tantone
05-10-2005, 07:26 PM
I think there will always be a need for people to know the code.
The lag time in standardization isn't the code...it's the browsers. w3.org already has standards in place, but there are only a handful of compliant browsers. Take IE for example. Far inferior when it comes to being standards compliant because MS has packed it to lean in the favor of MS-based code.
I've always found GUI dev tools for the web (html and css gui tools) simply add to the learning curve. If you know the code and keep up with the standards, you never have to pick a dev tool. You can do it all already.
The lag time in standardization isn't the code...it's the browsers. w3.org already has standards in place, but there are only a handful of compliant browsers. Take IE for example. Far inferior when it comes to being standards compliant because MS has packed it to lean in the favor of MS-based code.
I've always found GUI dev tools for the web (html and css gui tools) simply add to the learning curve. If you know the code and keep up with the standards, you never have to pick a dev tool. You can do it all already.
ScaryBinary
05-10-2005, 09:01 PM
I totally agree with tantone.
{steps on soapbox...}
For one, if the purpose of your site is to distribute information to the world, then for God's sake just show the information. There's nothing more annoying (to me, at least) than a webiste that has menus and graphics and animations all over the place, but it takes 17 minutes to find the content. If you want to impress people with your artistic talent, that's fine, but don't forget that people want to quickly get to the info.
In this respect, I think Flash in the wrong hands is a big drawback. The obvious exceptions are websites whose sole purpose are to promote a movie or music video or something of that nature. But if your website is about math or politics or book reviews or something where the content is mostly literary, than a few simple hyperlinks and some nice CSS is great. The page will load faster and visitors won't need to bother with any plug-ins. If you have to use Flash, then take the time to learn it well and make easily navigable pages that aren't so glitzy that the content of the site takes the back seat.
Anymore, it seems like the only thing Flash is used for is those annoying commercial banners anyway.
I say learn the code. I learned quickly that Frontpage and Word generate complete bunk when it comes to HTML. If you spend a few days brushing up on CSS and HTML, you'll have much more control over your designs. I rip on Microsoft IE quite a bit, but if you try it's not too tough to write HTML and CSS pages that are displayed adequately in both Firefox and IE. Both browsers have some big flaws (no "position: fixed" in IE, no "display: inline-block" in Firefox) that make complete layout in CSS tough, but you can still generate some pretty cool stuff with nothing more than solid CSS and HTML.
There may be a day when things like HTML and CSS are obsolete - I really hope that if they are replaced, it's with some other agreed-upon standard what will make cross-browser web design easy. We'll always have the Microsofts who are so sure their technology is better that they forsake anything standard, but hopefully the "Big Fish" will see that standardization will benefit the masses and work with it.
)-| Anybody still awake?
{steps on soapbox...}
For one, if the purpose of your site is to distribute information to the world, then for God's sake just show the information. There's nothing more annoying (to me, at least) than a webiste that has menus and graphics and animations all over the place, but it takes 17 minutes to find the content. If you want to impress people with your artistic talent, that's fine, but don't forget that people want to quickly get to the info.
In this respect, I think Flash in the wrong hands is a big drawback. The obvious exceptions are websites whose sole purpose are to promote a movie or music video or something of that nature. But if your website is about math or politics or book reviews or something where the content is mostly literary, than a few simple hyperlinks and some nice CSS is great. The page will load faster and visitors won't need to bother with any plug-ins. If you have to use Flash, then take the time to learn it well and make easily navigable pages that aren't so glitzy that the content of the site takes the back seat.
Anymore, it seems like the only thing Flash is used for is those annoying commercial banners anyway.
I say learn the code. I learned quickly that Frontpage and Word generate complete bunk when it comes to HTML. If you spend a few days brushing up on CSS and HTML, you'll have much more control over your designs. I rip on Microsoft IE quite a bit, but if you try it's not too tough to write HTML and CSS pages that are displayed adequately in both Firefox and IE. Both browsers have some big flaws (no "position: fixed" in IE, no "display: inline-block" in Firefox) that make complete layout in CSS tough, but you can still generate some pretty cool stuff with nothing more than solid CSS and HTML.
There may be a day when things like HTML and CSS are obsolete - I really hope that if they are replaced, it's with some other agreed-upon standard what will make cross-browser web design easy. We'll always have the Microsofts who are so sure their technology is better that they forsake anything standard, but hopefully the "Big Fish" will see that standardization will benefit the masses and work with it.
)-| Anybody still awake?
ukulele
05-10-2005, 11:05 PM
Both Tantone and Scarybinary have made some very valid points, but I also remember when DOS was all the rage and it was essential to know DOS commands and batch programming. In fact if you really wanted to speed things up you needed some experience in Basic or Pascal. The GUI changed all that. The same thing is going to have to happen with HTML expecially now with XHTML becoming much more mainstream. If you are only making pages for simple applications then certainly the KISS principle is more logical but there is absolutely no reason why that can't be done even easier and faster with the latest GUI interface. A prime example is this page (http://www.hawaiiislandviews.com/ics/shopping2.htm) I made last night in less then 30 minutes including finding the resources for a class project on web shopping. Now what's so complicated about this page? Hand coding this page would have taken all evening, and I defy anyone to show me a respectable browser that it won't run right on. My point is that if you already know HTML, and you want to move on then a GUI interface is the next logical step.
tantone
05-11-2005, 10:28 AM
Funny you should bring up DOS. I was just having a discussion with a buddy of mine the other day about using command-line tools. Some of those DOS skills still come in quite handy today.
I see things going differently. I think we're already seeing the surge of GUI web dev tools, and a lot of people use them. Best thing to compare it to is MS's Visual Studio. The tools at a programmers disposal have become more robust, and the code has been tweaked and enhanced, but you'd never be taken seriously as a true programmer unless you understood that underlying code.
HTML has gone through quite a few iterations, and now with xhtml it has been even more standardized while being enhanced (no more of these schmuck's using all caps for their tags). Dreamweaver, Front Page, and the like are handy and can make a good programmers job easier in many respects, but to ignore the code that these programs are creating--incidentally the same code that you will always see when you View Source on any website--isn't a good idea.
I see things going differently. I think we're already seeing the surge of GUI web dev tools, and a lot of people use them. Best thing to compare it to is MS's Visual Studio. The tools at a programmers disposal have become more robust, and the code has been tweaked and enhanced, but you'd never be taken seriously as a true programmer unless you understood that underlying code.
HTML has gone through quite a few iterations, and now with xhtml it has been even more standardized while being enhanced (no more of these schmuck's using all caps for their tags). Dreamweaver, Front Page, and the like are handy and can make a good programmers job easier in many respects, but to ignore the code that these programs are creating--incidentally the same code that you will always see when you View Source on any website--isn't a good idea.
ukulele
05-11-2005, 01:57 PM
Dreamweaver, Front Page, and the like are handy and can make a good programmers job easier in many respects, but to ignore the code that these programs are creating--incidentally the same code that you will always see when you View Source on any website--isn't a good idea.
I lost you there. Could you explain that differently?
I lost you there. Could you explain that differently?
tantone
05-11-2005, 02:44 PM
Those type of apps can allow you to speed up some of the repetetive coding that you might have otherwise had to do by hand. For example, in Dreamweaver (which I use to hand code), if you type <div class= it will pop up a list of the classes that you've defined in your CSS doc. It has some other auto-complete options and color-coding that I really find useful.
Even using the visual design tools can speed certain things up like sizing an image perhaps or slapping together a quick site.
But concentrating on the visual tool and ignoring the actual code that it's producing isn't a good idea. I can't tell you how many times I've had to go back into a site done with FrontPage just to clean up the mess of code it leaves in its wake. There's just no replacement for knowing the code itself. If you want absolute control over the minute details of your page, hand-coding is the only way to go.
Even using the visual design tools can speed certain things up like sizing an image perhaps or slapping together a quick site.
But concentrating on the visual tool and ignoring the actual code that it's producing isn't a good idea. I can't tell you how many times I've had to go back into a site done with FrontPage just to clean up the mess of code it leaves in its wake. There's just no replacement for knowing the code itself. If you want absolute control over the minute details of your page, hand-coding is the only way to go.
ukulele
05-11-2005, 04:08 PM
You need to use more modern versions. DreamweaverMX can do code cleanup automatically, and Frontpage was never a good program to begin with.
I understand what you are saying Tantone, but the later GUI versions have gotten much better.
I understand what you are saying Tantone, but the later GUI versions have gotten much better.
tantone
05-11-2005, 04:16 PM
Dreamweaver MX is what I use for hand-coding. You're right about Front Page.
There's just something about the granular control you have coding by hand. Like driving a manual v automatic.
There's just something about the granular control you have coding by hand. Like driving a manual v automatic.
voxunity
06-08-2005, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Istuken
I already know HTML, and a friend that runs a buisness asked me to make him a website. What programming languages should I learn? Should i learn XML DHTML XHTML or stick with the regular HTML? What programs will I need?
Depending on the project interaction requirements.
I already know HTML, and a friend that runs a buisness asked me to make him a website. What programming languages should I learn? Should i learn XML DHTML XHTML or stick with the regular HTML? What programs will I need?
Depending on the project interaction requirements.
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