Do you think its working?

[zybch]

We have probably all heard the justification for outsourcing:

By making the top few percent of rich people in a country even richer, that there will be a trickle down effect, and everyone will get a share of the pie.

Is this actually working?
All I see are the upper class getting richer, and the lower and middle classess getting poorer.
I can't find a single example of this trickle-down effect working at all.

[mireland]

it DOSEN'T FREAKIN WORK DUDE!


I had to call microsoft the other day..the guy(from india) just BARELY spoke good enough english for me to understand him...:mad:

[Prushka]

The tricklers have left the tricklee's trickleless...no good tricksters...and who want's the trickles anyhow...where's the faucet...turn the bloody thing on for a change :rolleyes:

[werz]

I remember that, Reaganomics, dont tell me someone else is trying it.

[genesound]

Actually, somebody has to take the incentive and create jobs and make some money, or nobody else will do anything :rolleyes:

not sure about outsourcing though :confused:

[werz]

I suupose they need another accountant or two to help minimise the tax.

[porsch1909]

yeh its strange how in india people are called anthony....lol...


everyperson who is hired in the call centres in india has a degree you know.....what a ferking waste! answer calls all day.....they are a ferking joke...they dont have a clue about the cultrue of the country they are answering calls from....and its bleeding annoying when they dont have a clue!!


:mad:

[zybch]

I think it was barclays bank in england that made its call centre monkeys in india read the english papers, watch english football and keep abreast of the weather in London so that they could more easily make the callers believe that the call centre was in London rather than in one of the world's best candidates for an armpit of a blacksmith.

I don't begrudge the Indians who have those jobs, good for them, but rather I get peed off at these bloody companies (like GM) that post the largest ever profits and then move offshore costing thousands of people to loose their jobs.

Thats not a really good way to ensure the trickle-down effect works.

Just out of interest, who voted 'YES'?

[Johnny Fist]

I voted no even though I don't really agree with your choices. However, its the closest option available.

Right now I hold a job as a steel worker. The part of the country I live in has traditionally been a large manufacturing/steel worker/automotive area. Over the course of the last 15 years almost all of the jobs have disapeared. First the automotive industry packed up and went over seas. Manufacturing wasn't too far behind. With noone left to buy their product and the cost of Japanese imports so low, the steel industry is gone now, too. Thousands upon thousands of people lose their jobs every year here. Its in the paper all the time. 500 people lose their jobs here....400 people lose their jobs there, etc, etc. Never have I heard of a major company moving into the area to provide the unemployed with new job opportunities. I consider myself somewhat lucky to have a decent paying job still. But you know what? I'm not counting on it being around for even five more years. It used to be that men had two option available to them. You could go to college and land a good paying job, or develop a skilled trade and land a good paying job. Anymore, you need a college degree to get a skilled trade job, but those jobs have all moved to China. I've somewhat adapted to the situation and do some PC repair in the evenings on the side. It supplements my income nicely. However, most people don't have that kind of luxury. They do what they know and thats as good as it gets. What happens to them? All the jobs are gone. What sort of job training is there for a 50 year old man who has worked as a steel worker for 30 years and really knows nothing else? You mean that guy who should be making $20.00 an hour is going to settle on a low paying $10.00 job? Not only will the man get a pay cut, but you'll be robbing him of his dignity and self worth as well. The whole thing frustrates me to no end to the point that sometimes I can understand why people vote from the rooftops.

[Johnny Fist]

DOH!!! I meant to say I voted NO. Sorry about the confusion.

[zybch]

All is forgiven :)

[Johnny Fist]

Whats really funny is, my friends and family always encourage me to finish my last few semesters of college and to try and get a job in the IT field. I never really considered it too much until the last year or so. Afterall, I have a good paying job that affords me a home and cars and food. Why go look else where, right? Well, when things started getting tougher around here I did. You know what I discovered? There isn't too much demand for IT professionals around here either. Do you know why? Because there are no manufacturing/steel worker/automotive plants around here anymore. So now what? Has the trickle down plan worked? Not if you ask me. If anything, it looks like the trickle up plan is doing a fine job ar eroding the white collar jobs now, too.

[werz]

Johnnies right, these companies and corporations were give access to the minerals and then a labor force to manufacture products, generations of families built there lives around these industries, the loyalty shown by the workers has not been repaid by the owners or stockholders of these industries, and govts of all persuasions have allowed laws to be passed that let them get away with it, instead of laws which protect a countries greatest assetts, it's people.
Only by collective action in boycotting the products made by these ungrateful companies, can we hope to change anything, publicity on a massive scale highlighting them and the profits that are made in our countries, then the unpatriotic option of moving there operations offshore to benefit a few share holders, instead of standing by the people who made them successful in the first place and keep there profits up by purchasing what is now made by foreigners instead of the loyal people who made the company in the first place.

[porsch1909]

Originally posted by zybch
I think it was barclays bank in england that made its call centre monkeys in india read the english papers, watch english football and keep abreast of the weather in London so that they could more easily make the callers believe that the call centre was in London rather than in one of the world's best candidates for an armpit of a blacksmith.

I don't begrudge the Indians who have those jobs, good for them, but rather I get peed off at these bloody companies (like GM) that post the largest ever profits and then move offshore costing thousands of people to loose their jobs.

Thats not a really good way to ensure the trickle-down effect works.

Just out of interest, who voted 'YES'?

There is a company who shows their worker eastenders......guess you have to be brittish to understand that though......

DO you know why the companies are leaving....because of minimum wage.....worst thing any government has every introduced! it is 4.7£ per hour in the UK and that is about 9$ per hour!! that is extorshonate IMHO. so some lowly cleaner has to be payed that much....it cripples small businesses. if you where a CEO would u not rather you went to China/singapor/malaysia where you can get the same thing done and pay the staff peanuts!!

also the relative strength of the pound and dollar compared to most other currencys makes thing awkward i think.....but i think the minimum wage thing is a bigger killer.....

Kill min wage so the real skilled people get paid more than the low lifes who though school didnt matter! :mad:

[j.m@talk]

I'm gonna learn to speak indian :p

[werz]

So tell us porsch, how much should cleaners be paid, in you opinion?

[mireland]

Originally posted by j.m@talk
I'm gonna learn to speak indian :p

it's gotta be easier to understand then British...

j/k:r

[j.m@talk]

I think the minimum wage is an excellent idea. I also believe its a little too low,

If the small companies can't compete........ Well thats a shame innit. "A fair days pay for a fair days work"

I have no idea how much a cleaner should earn, pends what they are cleaning & where I suppose :t

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by porsch1909
some lowly cleaner has to be payed that much....

Err isn't that snobbery? or eliteism?.......... Other than being just plain rude :rolleyes:

[fishybawb]

The minimum wage is there to stop people from exploiting workers. Any more than they do already anyway ;) Abolishing it would be a step backwards methinks.

[j.m@talk]

I do cleaning........ Not because I won't/can't pay a cleaner...... I do it because it has to be done....... Mind you I do all sorts O stuff that is a lil odd.... :p

[mireland]

Originally posted by j.m@talk
I do cleaning........ Not because I won't/can't pay a cleaner...... I do it because it has to be done....... Mind you I do all sorts O stuff that is a lil odd.... :p

(no comment) :D

[werz]

One of the reasons that hospitals have become such dangerous places over the last few years is they contracted out the cleaning to save money, they employed illegal immigrants to work for the low wages, gave them unrealistic amounts to clean, and no training, consequently, they could not read instructions on the cleaning products, skimped on thoroughly cleaning areas because they were given to much area and not enough time, so what happened, the places are now contaminated with staph and other hard to get rid of bacteriors, the workers could be carrying TB, hep A,B and C, because of short sighted people who think cleaners get paid to much.
Company executives are over paid, look at the packages that to CEOs get, you could employ a thousand people on the bonus's of many of them, and they get millions of dollars even if they ruin a company, where's the logic, oh I forgot, they worked hard in school and deserve it.

[porsch1909]

Originally posted by werz
So tell us porsch, how much should cleaners be paid, in you opinion?

a lot less than they do! It is a totally unskilled rubbish job....its not elitism or snobbery. why should they get paid so much for such a unskilled job?!?!?!? such is life.....UK nature sorry correction gordon brown nature....tax the rich and give to the poor! :(

[j.m@talk]

No point in taxin the poor they ain't got no money :p

So if i'm cleaning ..... An operating theatre for instance..... Any overlooked jerms are ok ...... & it doesn't matter if they get in to your body cavity? So you end up even more ill ......... Cleaning isn't a skill huh :rolleyes: You want a job done right ? Manage effectively & pay accordingly.


:t

& yes you are being a snob :mad:

[porsch1909]

well pay them more then....


more than the guy who dropped out at 16 and cleans the paisley centre toilets!! And complains he has no money but goes out and get plastered every night! :mad:

but suppose i am being a bit snobbish.....

My lecturer today said he has 3 PhDs so he is a Dr. Dr. Dr. and says that he knows a plumber who gets paid more than him....that is not justice....nothing to do with min wage i dont think....more to do with the plumber not declaring all his earning...then getting benefit and not have to pay lots of tax!!

No good deed goes unpunished....:(

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by porsch1909
My lecturer today said he has 3 PhDs so he is a Dr. Dr. Dr. and says that he knows a plumber who gets paid more than him....

& your lecturer is 1 A raging loonatic or 2 A sad old Git.

Who told you ya had to be clever to earn lots o quids :rolleyes:

Its MANAGEMENT :mad: Get it thro ya thick head ......

[mireland]

Originally posted by j.m@talk
[B.

Who told you ya had to be clever to earn lots o quids :rolleyes:

...... [/B]

yea! look at you for instance...:D

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by mireland
yea! look at you for instance...:D

I don't teach I do :rolleyes:

Wadda you do ? :D

[porsch1909]

Originally posted by j.m@talk
& your lecturer is 1 A raging loonatic or 2 A sad old Git.

Who told you ya had to be clever to earn lots o quids :rolleyes:

Its MANAGEMENT :mad: Get it thro ya thick head ......

think he just enjoys the subject...cant blame him for that!:p

[Prushka]

Good comments

...except for 1 little snot I sincerely hope ends up on the street without a pot to... in and then maybe, just maybe he might form a different opinion on the minimun wage which barely allows the poor to subsist. I have found, that quite often, this attitude comes back to haunt the one who's formed the opinion.
"Pride cometh before the fall..."

It seems to me that housing market and Refi's over the past 2 yrs. are about the only thing keeping this economy afloat

[j.m@talk]

My faith in humanity isn't (bad poop after all) Prushka ya a tower amongst men .............. Carry on :t

[tantone]

For the most part, there is a direct relationship between education and salaries.

For the most part, people who clean toilets for a living are not educated. Why? Maybe they're illegally here, maybe they dropped out of school, maybe an education was never advocated by their parents.

All people, regardless of how much you make, should pay an equal percentage of their salaries to taxes. The hard facts are that the people who benefit the most from the programs that my taxes are paying for AREN'T CONTRIBUTING to that cost, and that makes me mad as hell!

If you're rich, you have the right to keep getting richer if you can. If you're poor, you have the right to arm yourself with an education or some new skills to get a better job.

The people who complain about stupid things like "the rich get richer" haven't figured out that life isn't fair. Sometimes you have to work twice as hard as someone else for the same benefits. So WHAT?

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by tantone
If you're rich, you have the right to keep getting richer if you can.

Take ya bumhole theories & shove em .........

I came from what you would call the gutter & I made my life financially good ..............

Yer a ............... Look I don't care :mad:

[zybch]

But just look for a moment at HOW the rich get richer.
Its usually be exploiting those in financial brackets below theirs (see my recent toilet paper thread).
How can these creedy gunts sleep at night after closing down factories and costing thousands of people their jobs, just so they can move offshore where they don't have to pay their new workers even $1 a day.
Especially after they post the best ever profit numbers just before sacking their entire workforce and movinf to mexico/asia/india/etc.

By doing this, they are indeed making those less well off a lot more less well off, profits start to go overseas that would usually stay in the country, and a new generation of kids and unskilled workers begin the get screwed in whatever country the compay moves to.
Just look at Nike, GM, and all the other companies.

[j.m@talk]

Just look at Nike, GM, and all the other companies.

No look at "ME"............... I can do it ....... sup wiv yas :cool:

[zybch]

Originally posted by tantone
The people who complain about stupid things like "the rich get richer" haven't figured out that life isn't fair. Sometimes you have to work twice as hard as someone else for the same benefits. So WHAT?

Do you seriously believe that most COEs work a million time harder than the average US worker who earns less than $24,000. Look at that HP woman, Carly Fiorina. She got a $30+ million severance package.
Did she really work 30 million times as hard as a sales assistant at a department store , your average plumber or one of the telephone techs at HP? Not on your life!

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by zybch
Do you seriously believe that most COEs work a million time harder than the average US worker

DO I REALLY CARE ?

A Million times more is unobtainable ........................ Get real :rolleyes:

CEO's are paid accordingly ......... STFU zybch ya know zilch bout it )-|

However you are a idiot :r

& it shows :t

[porsch1909]

Originally posted by Prushka
Good comments

...except for 1 little snot I sincerely hope ends up on the street without a pot to... in and then maybe, just maybe he might form a different opinion on the minimun wage which barely allows the poor to subsist. I have found, that quite often, this attitude comes back to haunt the one who's formed the opinion.
"Pride cometh before the fall..."

It seems to me that housing market and Refi's over the past 2 yrs. are about the only thing keeping this economy afloat

oh do shut up.....uve never had to pay some unexperienced employee in a shop £4.70 for a job they have no training for at all.....its not just. people who work hard to get paid a decent wage/salary are shafted by the **** government giving people who dont work hard to earn a lot, a decent wage....i think £4.70 per hour is a lot of money for knowing nothing....you dont have a ferking clue do you! they increase min wage every now and again so you give the bottom people pay rise to a higher level then you have to pay the other people more money! then reduce profits why because u have to pay the untrained idiot £4.70 per hour!

i dont see how that is fair!?!?!? a person should get paid according to how good they are at their job and how hard they work at their job, also how much skill is required in the job. not get paid a lot because the government says to....instead of getting paid below what min wage is they get nothing because everybody is outsourcing to countries where there is no min wage. id have below min wage thank you.

[zybch]

So, Keneth Lay was paid according to how well he ran Enron?
What about the CEO of World Com, or Halliburton?
Yes, extreme examples, but these fat cats don't get to the top by hard work. They use family connections and the 'Old Boys' network to get a head and make their millions.
Ask any one of the Fortune 500 CEOs how much a bottle of milk costs and I'll bet that less than 1/5 will be even close, and yet its these people who are responsible for shipping jobs overseas and screwing their workers.

Trickle Down Effect my puckered backside!

[zybch]

Originally posted by porsch1909
they increase min wage every now and again so you give the bottom people pay rise to a higher level then you have to pay the other people more money!

Its generally only increased to make up for inflation. Same with pensions and everything else that is referenced to the CPI.

[Johnny Fist]

I kind of want to take a step back and address a couple points I missed while I was at work.

First, just because you have an education does not entitle you to money. The professor with three phds needs to figure out where he went wrong, not try and undercut what the plumber does. Hell, for all we know, the plumber is the real genius. Afterall, he's doing better than the educated professor, right? Its like my grandfather once told me, "It doesn't matter what you do....if you like it and work hard at perfecting it, people will notice and pay you for it." I've always considered that to be true.

To address the minimum wage issue, I'd like to state I am 100% against raising it. I've heard some rumors that the government in The United States is debating raising minimum wage once again. While that might seem like a good idea to some burger flippers, all it does is further erode the middle class. I mean, I don't get a raise when minimum wage goes up. Yet the guy at McDonald's making my hamburger does. Does that mean I get paid less? Yes, as a matter of fact it does. Do you think that Big Business will sit by and just take money out of their profits to pay these people? Absolutely not. They'll just raise the prices to cover it. So now not only is my wage worth less, but I have to pay more for the same product. If the kid making hamburgers can't get by on his 30 hour job at minimum wage maybe he better get another one. I hate to sound like a snob, but the majority of us have to work for a living, and work hard, too. It always seems like the minority at the top of the heap and the minority at the bottom of the heap get a free ride and I'm sick of it.

[porsch1909]

OMG me and JF agree on something.....its a first...

the lecturer siad that he doesnt care about the money, he does it for satisfaction. to see his name in science journals after he has done his research. to be recognised. he could get a job in an amazing reserach lab but likes to lecture and research. its his choice......personally id like to earn lots doing what i love :D

[Johnny Fist]

I don't think we agree for the same reasons. You seem to place less value on manual labor and skilled trades. Both of which I am defending by advocating keeping minimum wage at its current rate instead of raisng it.

[porsch1909]

I got caught up in the moment :(

[zybch]

Originally posted by Johnny Fist
I don't think we agree for the same reasons. You seem to place less value on manual labor and skilled trades. Both of which I am defending by advocating keeping minimum wage at its current rate instead of raisng it.

Let me get this straight.
Say the cost of groceries, rent, utility services and all that goes up say 10% in 12 months because the rich end of town wants to get richer, the minimum wage shouldn't be increased to account for that 10% increase in the cost of living (more like surviving).

[Johnny Fist]

This makes it difficult. Raising the minimum wage everytime times get tough doesn't FIX the problem. As I already stated, I think it makes it worse.

I don't know about in Australia, but in America 40 hours is considered to be the MINIMUM amount of hours one can work and be considered employed full time. Most people who make minimum wage will be lucky if they work that many hours a week. Instead of simply giving them more money for nothing, why not let them work more hours? I generally work 50 hours a week. Sometimes bills arise or I decide I would like a little extra so I WORK MORE HOURS. I don't just say, "man, I want a new TV. Someone give me some more money for nothing." Instead I say "Hey boss, I want a new TV. You think I can pick up some extra overtime this weekend?" Maybe I'm stupid, but doing the bare minimum should pay the bare minimum. If you want more, or extra, then you have to suck it up and work for it. People can't just be given everything for free all the time.

[zybch]

Originally posted by Johnny Fist
This makes it difficult. Raising the minimum wage everytime times get tough doesn't FIX the problem. As I already stated, I think it makes it worse.

I'm not talking about when times get tough, not unless you can agree with me that times are always getting tougher with no respite.

You seem to be basically saying that a guy flipping burgers 40 hours a week should NEVER get a pay rise (or rise in minimum wage) despite the fact that goods and services all appreciate in cost over time.

8 years ago, I used to pay $75 in rent a week, my sister is paying more than $140 for pretty much the same sized appartment in the same area. Thats almost a doubling in 8 years.
Electricity and phone services have gone up by around 30% in that time too, not to mention the price of petrol and the weekly grocery shop, we'll not even got into health care.

If the minimum wage was never increased to allow for inflation there would be millions and millions of extra homeless people living in cardboard boxes.
If it were never raised, people wouldn't be able to afford doctors bills and potentially pass on all kinds of illnessess to the rest of society.
The flow on effects are many and varied.

The only people who would benefit are the rich jerks in their gated communities. Their increased bank accounts will never help those less wealthy than themselves (unless its a tax writeoff).

Whats the one thing that people with money want?
I'll give you a clue. Its similar to what people with power want.

[porsch1909]

Originally posted by zybch


Whats the one thing that people with money want?
I'll give you a clue. Its similar to what people with power want.


somebody to love?? :rolleyes:

[werz]

Originally posted by porsch1909
oh do shut up.....uve never had to pay some unexperienced employee in a shop £4.70 for a job they have no training for at all.....its not just. people who work hard to get paid a decent wage/salary are shafted by the **** government giving people who dont work hard to earn a lot, a decent wage....i think £4.70 per hour is a lot of money for knowing nothing....you dont have a ferking clue do you! they increase min wage every now and again so you give the bottom people pay rise to a higher level then you have to pay the other people more money! then reduce profits why because u have to pay the untrained idiot £4.70 per hour!

i dont see how that is fair!?!?!? a person should get paid according to how good they are at their job and how hard they work at their job, also how much skill is required in the job. not get paid a lot because the government says to....instead of getting paid below what min wage is they get nothing because everybody is outsourcing to countries where there is no min wage. id have below min wage thank you.
http://www.ourcivilisation.com/personal/chap1.htm
read a little bit of this porsch, when you eventually finish school and spend a few years in the workforce you will realise qualifications have nothing to do with competence, and if the sewer is broken, for all our healths sake a plumber is worth far more than a lecturer, especially if he's producing mega wally's like you,
and jm yer an idiot. but I think you know it, unfortunately porsch hasn't a clue yet.

[Johnny Fist]

I'm saying that raising minimum wage only helps to increase the problem instead of fixing it. Its not the only reason for inflation, but it is one of the reasons for it.

Sure, there is a time and a reason to raise minimum wage. But if you ask me, minimum wage should be raised only when there is no other possible alternative. If you're only working 40 hours a week there is room to work more hours. Sure its annoying to give up a weekend and work. But if you're not making rent then maybe you should try that before you start clamoring for a handout. And let me share a little tidbit of information with you...bosses tend to reward employees showing motivation and a strong work ethic with raises. Seriously, try it sometime.

[zybch]

Originally posted by porsch1909
somebody to love?? :rolleyes:

Nah, they can buy that.

The real answer is "More money" as you probably know.

If the minimum wage remained at an absolutely fixed level, the value of the work that a burger flipper (for instance) performs becomes less over time as prices on everything else rises but his wage doesn't, even though he is doing the same work for the same ammount of hours as he did before.

[werz]

Our economies depend on every working person to earn enough to be able to consume the products it makes, otherwise we would all be poor.

[zybch]

Originally posted by Johnny Fist
I'm saying that raising minimum wage only helps to increase the problem instead of fixing it. Its not the only reason for inflation, but it is one of the reasons for it.

Sure, there is a time and a reason to raise minimum wage. But if you ask me, minimum wage should be raised only when there is no other possible alternative. If you're only working 40 hours a week there is room to work more hours. Sure its annoying to give up a weekend and work. But if you're not making rent then maybe you should try that before you start clamoring for a handout. And let me share a little tidbit of information with you...bosses tend to reward employees showing motivation and a strong work ethic with raises. Seriously, try it sometime.

You have it the wrong way about.

Inflation isn't caused by raising the minimum wage (well not much), but instead, the minimum wage HAS to sometimes be increased because of inflation.

Would you be happy earning the minimum wage of 35 years ago but live in todays society, only to be told that you should work longer hours because you don't seem to be able to make ends meet on only $1.35 an hour?

[tantone]

We, as a global society, need the ppl to sweep the floor, take out the trash, work the fryer at McDonalds, fold sheets at a hotel...the list goes on and on. They should get paid low wages to keep them striving for something better amd to save me $$ when I patronize their establishment. ;)

Those jobs will make you work, and you'll come home smelling nasty and feeling gross, and you'll most likely be exhausted. But your goal should ALWAYS be to move up and out. I know people who are execs at restaurant chains who started washing the dishes. They worked hard, got an education with their experience, and made something of themselves.

I don't care where you started in life: bottom, middle, or top. If you aren't constantly trying to move up then you deserve to be where you are and I have no sympathy for you. If you are there temporarily and are trying to improve your future, then again I don't sympathize because you don't need it and probably don't want it.

If you don't like my opinions, that's fine and it really doesn't matter. I firmly believe that ppl deserve what they get in life.

[tantone]

I agree that minimum wage should raise at the inflation rate, but NO MORE.

[zybch]

Thats my point!
At least someone here has more than 2 brain cells huddling together for warmth :)

[tantone]

But I also believe that illegal aliens--at least in the US--are darn near vital to our economy, especially in border states like TX, NM, AZ, and CA. It's that WAY less than minimum wage that keeps things normal.

[werz]

http://www.ourcivilisation.com/worst.htm#Rule1
and if no one else sees this I'll give you another example, Politics.

[zybch]

Thats how many companies are able to keep their heads above water.

[Johnny Fist]

I think that you're trying to put words in my mouth (or post) that I'm not saying. Its hard to generalize people and their work ethics into one big group like this. Maybe the people you see around you are doing the best they can and are struggling to make ends meet. Then I suppose minimum wage should be raised to help them out. From what I see over here, the people making minimum wage could stand to be working more hours if they have problems making ends meet. They should also be complaining up a storm that their compnay only puts them on the payroll for 39 hours a week to keep them from being fulltime so they don't have to pay them benefits.

[zybch]

That always sucks. I was working greater than full-time hours at one stage but still classified me as 'casual'.
They probably saved heaps on all the health and superanuation benefits that I'd have got as a full-timer.

[Johnny Fist]

Thats exactly why Big Business does it.

The whole thing sickens me.

[werz]

porsch did you bother looking at the links I posted, when you get into the workforce, it becomes apparent very quickly that the talented and consciencious dont rise through the ranks quickly, infact the opposite is generally the case. Three PhDs dont make a good lecturer, and if you have a decent teacher, it's more by luck than design.

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by zybch
Thats my point!
At least someone here has more than 2 brain cells huddling together for warmth :)

Err agreed ............... So its £10.50 then ? :t

I can pay that :t

[genesound]

1. Minimum wage is just that. It's the very least one can do to barley sustain life. It should not be a goal, or a state of complacency. It should not be very comfortable either.

2. One can either make more by working harder or more hours or by working smarter.

3. One does not get paid what one is worth, but what one negotiates, but one must bring something of value to the table.

4. Most people are too busy making a living to make any real money.

5. Those that risk everything by starting and operating a business that provides jobs should not be penalized into bankruptcy by politicians pandering to unskilled, uninspired laborers via raising minimum wage. When they think they are, they might just outsource.

6. If one's skills can be outsourced to a third world company, one should consider improving one's skillset. :t

[zybch]

Originally posted by werz
porsch did you bother looking at the links I posted, when you get into the workforce, it becomes apparent very quickly that the talented and consciencious dont rise through the ranks quickly, infact the opposite is generally the case. Three PhDs dont make a good lecturer, and if you have a decent teacher, it's more by luck than design.

The police force here is a case in point.
Cops that have been on the force for years are skipped for promotion in favour of young twerps who go on all the courses and roll playing excercises and know how to play the system.

As a result, all the good cops are leaving and the force is now comprised by under experienced brown-tongues who know how to roll play but not how to police.

[genesound]

Originally posted by zybch
The police force here is a case in point.
Cops that have been on the force for years are skipped for promotion in favour of young twerps who go on all the courses and roll playing excercises and know how to play the system.

As a result, all the good cops are leaving and the force is now comprised by under experienced brown-tongues who know how to roll play but not how to police. Not a very good case in point; they're civil servants. The idiots that control said workforce should be publicly brought to task with the facts in hand ;)

[zybch]

I think its a great example of how hard work won't get you anywhere these days. But the 'appearance' of work often will.
What do you think a CEO really does. Not all that much other than be a figurehead.

[genesound]

CEOs - It's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it :D

Generally, they're just really good negotiators ;)

As for appearances, those can always be changed given the proper facilities and voices.

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by genesound
One does not get paid what one is worth,

I was gonna ask for a job.......... But as ya gonna be such a silly C....t about it ......I won't.. Ohhhh I've saved ya the trouble of being punched in the head ......... As that that would of been my immediate response to somone who comes the "BIG ONE" wiv me :t

[j.m@talk]

Sorry that was impolite :rolleyes:

[zybch]

Originally posted by genesound
It's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it :D

Generally, they're just really good negotiators ;)

Nah, all that is done for them. Just like the Prez/PM of a country just give the impression that they are negotiating while the foreign minister etc do all the work.
Haven't you ever seen 'Yes Prime Minister'? Its not very far from the truth.

[Johnny Fist]

Originally posted by zybch
I think its a great example of how hard work won't get you anywhere these days. But the 'appearance' of work often will.


Its sad but true. Everyone has horror stories about coworkers who put more effort into pretending to work than actually working. The sad thing is, they inevitably get promoted.

[genesound]

Muscle might work if ya content to be a dockworker or a third fiddle gangsta :rolleyes:

Don't let smarty pants put one over on ya :p

[zybch]

I've never been a bootlicker, but I've worked with a lot of them that rise through the ranks by being so far up the boss's puckered bottoms' they can see daylight.

[genesound]

Originally posted by zybch
I've never been a bootlicker, but I've worked with a lot of them that rise through the ranks by being so far up the boss's puckered bottoms' they can see daylight. know what you mean there fer sure, been in my area for almost 30 years... :D

[j.m@talk]

SORRY but I fink Genesound needs a smack in the chops for even mentioning it :rolleyes:

[genesound]

:confused:

[j.m@talk]

Call me agressive if ya like :p

[zybch]

Originally posted by genesound
know what you mean there fer sure, been in my area for almost 30 years... :D

By 'area' you mean???

[genesound]

I can still bob and weave :D

[mireland]

Originally posted by j.m@talk
Call me agressive if ya like :p

how about *****Y? http://www.fancysplace.com/smileys/xmasb.gif

[zybch]

Sloppy?

[j.m@talk]

Last edited by genesound on 03-18-2005 at 02:13 AM

Don't cutt either :)


But

:mad:

Ya know

:t

[genesound]

Originally posted by zybch
By 'area' you mean??? hmmm... I took my first professional job in sound in '77. 'course I was in bands before that :cool:

I got in the biz the regular way... the band broke up :D

[mireland]

so...is this THREAD working..I think not...:rolleyes:

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by zybch
Sloppy?

Pissy sloppy ......... My apologies :-@

[mireland]

Originally posted by j.m@talk
Pissy sloppy ......... My apologies :-@


:r

[genesound]

Originally posted by j.m@talk
Pissy sloppy ......... My apologies :-@ Credit where it's due :D

[tantone]

I think its a great example of how hard work won't get you anywhere these days. But the 'appearance' of work often will.
Then you do what you can to get a better deal. You can do one of two things:
1. Whine about it and go nowhere (you're a whiner)
2. Follow suit and move up too.

Oh wait, make it 3.
3. Stay where you are and shut up

[genesound]

Good form :D

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by genesound
Credit where it's due :D

Ferk all there .......... Ya's theivin' ............ Or summink :mad:

[zybch]

Its difficult to move up and still keep your principles intact though :(

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by zybch
Its difficult to move up and still keep your principles intact though :(
Is it nutz :rolleyes:

[genesound]

Originally posted by zybch
Its difficult to move up and still keep your principles intact though :( Afraid of a bit of difficulty?

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by genesound
Afraid of a bit of difficulty?

Dang correct :t

[genesound]

Hmmm, might be good for some minimum wage then :D :D :D

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by genesound
Hmmm, might be good for some minimum wage then

I'm not lettin' ya Outta this one clean ......
Sorry but ya being rude :mad:

[mireland]

NOW what??? :rolleyes:

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by mireland
NOW what??? :rolleyes:

He needs a poke in the eye .................



Well he does :mad:

[ukulele]

Fact is that some people are smarter then others and some are retarded and some are disabled and some are addicted to drugs and some are physically ill and some are mentally ill etc.etc.etc. We are all created equal but some are more equal then others (take the Bushes and Kennedy's for example). The most prosperous times in America was when welfare was at it's peak. Money flowed everywhere, not just in the rich folks accounts. We don't have a patriarchal society thanks to the Christian ethic so society must take care of the weak, stupid and ill. It's the only way American philosophy can work without the Asian philosophy of 3 generations in the same household. Anybody who thinks otherwise is blind to history and just a greedy snob. Just wait until the collapse of social security and watch how fast the rich endorse euthanasia. The rich snobs all complain about the drug addicts, not because they are addicted to drugs but because they can't afford the drugs like the rich can. It's all smoke and mirrors folks.

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by ukulele
Fact is that some people are smarter then others

As much as I have a great deal of respect for Uke he's gonna get poked in the eye too :mad:

[mireland]

Originally posted by ukulele
Fact is that some people are smarter then others and some are retarded and some are disabled and some are addicted to drugs and some are physically ill and some are mentally ill etc.etc.etc. We are all created equal but some are more equal then others (take the Bushes and Kennedy's for example). The most prosperous times in America was when welfare was at it's peak. Money flowed everywhere, not just in the rich folks accounts. We don't have a patriarchal society thanks to the Christian ethic so society must take care of the weak, stupid and ill. It's the only way American philosophy can work without the Asian philosophy of 3 generations in the same household. Anybody who thinks otherwise is blind to history and just a greedy snob. Just wait until the collapse of social security and watch how fast the rich endorse euthanasia. The rich snobs all complain about the drug addicts, not because they are addicted to drugs but because they can't afford the drugs like the rich can. It's all smoke and mirrors folks.


I'm not reading all that...:rolleyes:

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by mireland
I'm not reading all that...:rolleyes:

I'm still gonna grab im'............ He's just plain wrong .......... Its PPl like him tha is holdin America Back :mad: .................











Gonna gettcha dude ....... :t

Gonna kick ya *** too

[ukulele]

Originally posted by mireland
I'm not reading all that...:rolleyes:

Read it anyway. It's like taking worm medicine. The cure is as bad as the disease. ;)

[werz]

Originally posted by genesound
know what you mean there fer sure, been in my area for almost 30 years... :D
I occasionally help out my brother in law who is a lighting technician and does lots of shows etc, and I've never seen such a bunch of prima donnas, the idiots who come in wave there arms about and wail 'we'll never be ready' meanwhile the stagehands and eletricians get it finished dispite the jerks, who then claim credit for it and get a huge check for getting in the way.

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by werz
I occasionally help out my brother in law who is a lighting technician and does lots of shows etc, and I've never seen such a bunch of prima donnas, the idiots who come in wave there arms about and wail 'we'll never be ready' meanwhile the stagehands and eletricians get it finished dispite the jerks, who then claim credit for it and get a huge check for getting in the way.

So ya wanna few wires put together ?

[mireland]

Originally posted by ukulele
Read it anyway. It's like taking worm medicine. The cure is as bad as the disease. ;)

well I read it..didn't understand it really..but I read it...)-|

[j.m@talk]

STOP ............... REWIND................... PLAY ...............To the bit where the tight Mofo gets sloppy wiv the checks :rolleyes:




I told yas :mad:

[j.m@talk]

Punch punch :p



Just for good measure :t

[ukulele]

Originally posted by mireland
well I read it..didn't understand it really..but I read it...)-|

OK, fairs fair, some people will never get it. Just think of it like this, the only thing that really separates the humans from the animals is their compassion for life and ability to work together to succeed where other animals cannot. If we were all like wolves who work together to make a kill and then the biggest and meanest eat first so they can stay the biggest and meanest, while the pups starve, there wouldn't be many of us left. Our nation is young, not even a quarter of a millenium yet and China is 6 to 8 milleniums older just since they started counting dynasties. They have effectivly absorbed every nation that tried to conquor China. Their strength is in their ability to share from one generation to the next and help each other through the hard times and famines. America would rather watch the poor starve to death and hire the least fortunate ( or the Chinese it looks like now) to do the dirty work, without shareing in the pie, because they can. It's a dead end street when the resources run out and nobody remembers how to work hard anymore.

[genesound]

Originally posted by werz
I occasionally help out my brother in law who is a lighting technician and does lots of shows etc, and I've never seen such a bunch of prima donnas, the idiots who come in wave there arms about and wail 'we'll never be ready' meanwhile the stagehands and eletricians get it finished dispite the jerks, who then claim credit for it and get a huge check for getting in the way. don't tell me... they don't work in Hollywood :cool:

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by j.m@talk
Punch punch :p

:D

[genesound]

Actions speak louder than words :rolleyes:

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by genesound
Actions speak louder than words :rolleyes:

My cat is bigger than your cat :p




:rolleyes:

[mireland]

Originally posted by j.m@talk
My cat is bigger than your cat :p




:rolleyes:

well the bigger the kitty the better...









..I said KITTY! :x

[genesound]

dunno wot chu on about :(

got nu thin but respect fer the likes o you!

Do yer biz and wiv a good attitude too. Not afraid to pay a good wage fer a good deed!

Might even start a philanthropist fund if'n yas could find some contributaries ;)

[j.m@talk]

Cann it fool :rolleyes:
http://www.silvercreek.wclark.k12.in.us/StudentWork/StudentPages/MDaly/mr-t.gif

[genesound]

LOL!!! :D :D :D

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by genesound
dunno wot chu on about :(

got nu thin but respect fer the likes o you!

Do yer biz and wiv a good attitude too. Not afraid to pay a good wage fer a good deed!

Might even start a philanthropist fund if'n yas could find some contributaries ;)


More bableation :p

philanthropist 'YA' momma :-@

[genesound]

again LOL :D


but someone should... we go on a lot but don't actually do much ;)

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by genesound
again LOL :D


Stomp Stomp .............. Etc :p

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by genesound
again LOL :D


but someone should... we go on a lot but don't actually do much ;)

ya might not :t

[genesound]

Originally posted by genesound
Actions speak louder than words :rolleyes: I fink a nice international tax dodge would be great :t

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by genesound
I fink a nice international tax dodge would be great :t

Troo :cool:

[genesound]

Leave the carp head politicians outa it.... make it users 2002 :D

but it's gotta be certified for taxes :furrow:

[j.m@talk]

export ya tax .................. oops I didn't say that :eek:

[genesound]

export ya steerage :eek:

oops, i dint say that either :D :D :D

[Prushka]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by j.m@talk
[B]No point in taxin the poor they ain't got no money :p

So if i'm cleaning ..... An operating theatre for instance..... Any overlooked jerms are ok ...... & it doesn't matter if they get in to your body cavity? So you end up even more ill ......... Cleaning isn't a skill huh :rolleyes: You want a job done right ? Manage effectively & pay accordingly.


Agreed, especially: You want a job done right ? Manage effectively & pay accordingly.


I would pay my guys very well...either by the job or by the hr. and offer them an incentive...giving them a vested interest in the job.
If they wanted to crank it out (assuming the quality was still good), then I'd pay them extra. Also, when a job would go better then expected, they'd get something extra. And they were also aware of the fact that I took a hit on some jobs.
Companies offering ESOP's or other benefits, generally do well.
And it the job of a manager to train, utilize and motivate employees.

One final note: If you're hiring the cheapest labor on the street, what kind of results would you expect...offer incentives

Looks like I've got some catching up on this thread

[genesound]

I would think cleaning in hospital a specialty... maybe it's just me but this example seems a bit off :eek: :eek: :eek:

[genesound]

where's herosrest when we need im? :cool:

[ukulele]

Originally posted by genesound
I would think cleaning in hospital a specialty... maybe it's just me but this example seems a bit off :eek: :eek: :eek:

It doesn't pay enough to call it a specialty. That's the point of the arguement. Look at your average restaurant kitchen. Do you think the owner gives a **** about the publics health? The answer is only in the restaurants that the elite eat in and only if the help is well paid. The same is true for hospitals and clinics. It's a money thing. Paying the owner more and the help less solves nothing.

[herosrest]

http://fancysplace.com/bouncingblue.gif

[genesound]

It's an HOSPITAL! It is by defination a specialty! Anyone who doesn't think so should have to undergo brain surgery there! :D

As for resturants, there's a nice little system here in So. California that has had some very significant effect. Every resturant is subject to a surprise inspection, and they get graded at the time of inspection, and it happens once a year, rain or shine. Then they have to hang the resultant grade from said inspection in their window prominantly visible for all entrants to their business for the next year! Works for me :D

[ukulele]

Originally posted by genesound
It's an HOSPITAL! It is by defination a specialty! Anyone who doesn't think so should have to undergo brain surgery there! :D

As for resturants, there's a nice little system here in So. California that has had some very significant effect. Every resturant is subject to a surprise inspection, and they get graded at the time of inspection, and it happens once a year, rain or shine. Then they have to hang the resultant grade from said inspection in their window prominantly visible for all entrants to their business for the next year! Works for me :D

So I take it you never heard of graft. No not in California. Never. :rolleyes:

[genesound]

Originally posted by herosrest
http://fancysplace.com/bouncingblue.gif no comment :eek: ;) :D

[genesound]

Originally posted by ukulele
So I take it you never heard of graft. No not in California. Never. :rolleyes: Wot'll it take to shut you up you mean? ;) :D

how bout some very hungry news flies then? ;)

[Prushka]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by porsch1909
[B]oh do shut up.....uve never had to pay some unexperienced employee in a shop £4.70 for a job they have no training for at all.....its not just. people who work hard to get paid a decent wage/salary are shafted by the **** government giving people who dont work hard to earn a lot, a decent wage....i think £4.70 per hour is a lot of money for knowing nothing....you dont have a ferking clue do you! they increase min wage every now and again so you give the bottom people pay rise to a higher level then you have to pay the other people more money! then reduce profits why because u have to pay the untrained idiot £4.70 per hour!

And what kind of a twit company owner doesn't understand that unskilled/untrained labor needs some hands on know-how training and incentive before they become productive. After all, you're hiring the cheapest labor on the street. If you want SKILLED labor, than hire skilled labor.

I'd also like to see the company stat. sheet on just what percentage the measely minimum wage workers shell-out is against poor adminstrative decision making, attaining new contracts, non-worker (the minimum wage people) related efficiency decision making, blah, blah, blah

I think what you're really looking for a sweat shop
Wonders what he does when it comes to tipping the waitress and busboy

[genesound]

Quite frankly, if I was gonna start a company, I'd be more likely to pay more like £47.40 per hour for keenly skilled labor than minimum wage for anything, at least at first. Those lower tasks would either be absorbed by partners and well paid employees, or outsourced :eek:

[Prushka]

I follow that line of reasoning...you don't want a novice screwing something up

[genesound]

Originally posted by Prushka
I follow that line of reasoning...you don't want a novice screwing something up When my (and others; fellows and friends) future is on the line, I don't want a novice doing anything at all except what I explicitly tell them. I come up on this all the time with crew du jour... but the global community is smaller than you might think, especially in Hollywood... we make it work :D

BTW... screwing something up can be very innocuous, surreptitious, and just plain alluding. There's way more to connecting a few wires than might be apparent at first blush :D

[Prushka]

Originally posted by genesound

BTW... screwing something up can be very innocuous, surreptitious, and just plain alluding. There's way more to connecting a few wires than might be apparent at first blush :D [/B]


Lost me...must be a Hollywood thing

[genesound]

Originally posted by Prushka
Lost me...must be a Hollywood thing Well, fer instance, I wouldn't want to be the guy that let Reagan get out doing a mic check wiv a one liner about war, or a wacky shot from anywhere for that matter, without the subject having express knowledge that he/she was on the bird :t

bird=satellite ;)

[genesound]

And that was merely decades ago:t

[porsch1909]

Originally posted by Prushka
[QUOTE]Originally posted by porsch1909
[B]oh do shut up.....uve never had to pay some unexperienced employee in a shop £4.70 for a job they have no training for at all.....its not just. people who work hard to get paid a decent wage/salary are shafted by the **** government giving people who dont work hard to earn a lot, a decent wage....i think £4.70 per hour is a lot of money for knowing nothing....you dont have a ferking clue do you! they increase min wage every now and again so you give the bottom people pay rise to a higher level then you have to pay the other people more money! then reduce profits why because u have to pay the untrained idiot £4.70 per hour!

And what kind of a twit company owner doesn't understand that unskilled/untrained labor needs some hands on know-how training and incentive before they become productive. After all, you're hiring the cheapest labor on the street. If you want SKILLED labor, than hire skilled labor.

I'd also like to see the company stat. sheet on just what percentage the measely minimum wage workers shell-out is against poor adminstrative decision making, attaining new contracts, non-worker (the minimum wage people) related efficiency decision making, blah, blah, blah

I think what you're really looking for a sweat shop
Wonders what he does when it comes to tipping the waitress and busboy

Learn to quote properly.....

You dont have a clue about the business so dont comment on it. In the summer i work a 9am -11pm shift in that shop for a helluva lot less than min wage. i dont even take pay for anything after 5.30pm so i get a wonderfull £3.52 per hour, thats about $6.75 per hour. for 8.5 hour that i ask for pay for. WHy because i dont like to moan. i work in the summer as a favour and have been working there for many many years and im good at what i do now. Dont work during the year because my studies matter more quite simply,because i dont want to be working there my whole life!

and to think this all started by me saying that people are losing their jobs through outsourcing due to the minimum wage....anybody agree with that?:rolleyes:

[Johnny Fist]

Originally posted by porsch1909
Learn to quote properly.....

You dont have a clue about the business so dont comment on it. In the summer i work a 9am -11pm shift in that shop for a helluva lot less than min wage. i dont even take pay for anything after 5.30pm so i get a wonderfull £3.52 per hour, thats about $6.75 per hour. for 8.5 hour that i ask for pay for. WHy because i dont like to moan. i work in the summer as a favour and have been working there for many many years and im good at what i do now. Dont work during the year because my studies matter more quite simply,because i dont want to be working there my whole life!

and to think this all started by me saying that people are losing their jobs through outsourcing due to the minimum wage....anybody agree with that?:rolleyes:

Sounds to me like you're a moron. If I don't get paid I don't go to work. Its that simple.

[porsch1909]

I dont do it for the money :p

[werz]

Originally posted by porsch1909
I dont do it for the money :p
If you work in a family business you get paid in other ways, who supports you, if you had to support a family on that wage you'd soon complain, or quit and look for a better job.
How do you outsource a shop assists job, you should be happy that the shop helps pay for your education, if your family own it.

[porsch1909]

Originally posted by werz
If you work in a family business you get paid in other ways, who supports you, if you had to support a family on that wage you'd soon complain, or quit and look for a better job.
How do you outsource a shop assists job, you should be happy that the shop helps pay for your education, if your family own it.

;) clever guy!! Thought i was spelling it out pretty well. I am happy, when did i say i wasnt!! But unlike you american types i get my university education paid for me by the government :D

and when did i say i was outsourcing a shop assistants job....i turn 18 this year so i could demand min wage if i wanted....:p

If i had to support a family on that wage....yeh id complain....but i dont so i dont, whats the point in speculating...:confused:

[tantone]

I think it's a fairly simple concept. Generally, it's safe to say that as the intelligence requirement increases for a position so will the pay.

You don't need to be smart to clean a hospital or a restaurant. You don't need brain power higher than that of a bird to do the kinds of jobs that pay low wages.

We could train monkeys to do that stuff but the ACLU and the liberals (which, incidentally, I would like to submit as an offensive word here at SysOpt so that it's asterisked out) would complain that we're taking jobs away from hard-working poor folks who would rather whine and complain about why the rich keep getting richer while they are stuck in minimum wage jobs that don't feed their 5 children.

Again, LIFE ISN'T FAIR folks. Learn to accept that fact, and work to get as much as you can. Either learn to play the game and win (whatever level of success winning is to you), or sit the hell down on the sidelines, buy a diet rite and a corn dog, and watch the rest of us take what you're too lazy to work for.

[porsch1909]

*A tear begin to form in porsch's left eye* :p :t :-@ :r :x

[tantone]

A good example. The libs will say that it's because the ant population has been keeping the grasshopper down. But those of us who aren't mentally unstable see the truth. Some people are just lazy.

bit of reading for you (http://ron.dotson.net/misc/antgrasshopper.htm)

[ukulele]

I have a brother in law just like you Tantone. He even looks like you. He grew up a rich boy, went to Davis university on daddies buck, got handed daddies business when he was just out of school. When he comes for a family visit he wears a suit and tie in the middle of summer just to show us all how much more class he has. He will tell you he deserves 10 times any mans salary because he's smarter. Unfortunately he is basicly just a jerk that couldn't change a sparkplug and the simple the simple fact is that he never did an honest days work in his life. His own janitors deserve more pay then he's worth. It's not about brains when it comes to being somebody. You can't buy charactor, and class is just fashion for the rich. That is not to say you can't be rich and still have charactor, it just a lot harder. Now tell me how hard you worked for your suit and tie existance. I don't believe it. Real people don't try to make fashion statements on a computer forum.

[tantone]

I hope you're kidding. That's not me in the avatar...it's Michael Corleone from The Godfather.

Now, secondly, it's interesting that you make those assumptions of me simply because of my opinion. I paid for my education, not my family. I didn't pay a course or instructor for my computer certifications back when they meant something--I did the work on my own. I was unemployed after 9.11 like a lot of other IT ppl. I took what work I had to in order to stay afloat and got back on my feet again.

I own a nice house and a nice car. I save for my retirement. I eat out a couple times a week.

What I have, I've earned.

However, all that aside, if your brother in law (who's apparently just like me) has all that for doing nothing, then who really cares?

I'll say it again for those of you who are obtuse: LIFE AIN'T FAIR!!!!! Quit whining about it--quit worrying about what others got handed to them while you didn't get anything handed to you--and just get what you can. This is not about character--it's about changing the things YOU have the power to change and not wasting that same energy complaining about others' success.

[tantone]

Character = respect. I don't respect people your brother in law, but I certainly don't begrudge him because of the hand he was dealt. I couldn't care less.

[werz]

Who amongst us that have worked in industry hasn't noticed that 'scum rises to the top' there may be exceptions, but not to many.
I think it's a fairly simple concept. Generally, it's safe to say that as the intelligence requirement increases for a position so will the pay.
generally its the opposite, when a person continually screws up, but learns to blame everyone else, then his position in a company will rise and his pay will increase.

[tantone]

'scum rises to the top' Have you ever been at the top, or anywhere near it, or even known (really known) anyone who was? It's a completely different world.

[ukulele]

Well, when you make statements like, "I think it's a fairly simple concept. Generally, it's safe to say that as the intelligence requirement increases for a position so will the pay." and "You don't need to be smart to clean a hospital or a restaurant. You don't need brain power higher than that of a bird to do the kinds of jobs that pay low wages." I have to ask myself why, because these people are not as smart, they have to be payed grossly lower wages then someone who sit's a desk in an easy IT job. I don't buy that nonsense that they work harder and deserve more. That's like saying the guy that cleans your toilet everyday is not working as hard as you. That's a disgusting, self centered point of view that is not worthy of a society that continues to brag about how moral they really are. That's like endorsing the caste system of old India. I'm certainly not advocating communism here, just common respect for people not as fortunate in the brains department. When you put yourself above another just because you are better educated you demean others with the excuse that they are lazy when in fact that may not be the truth at all.

[herosrest]

A vast number of people just want to enjoy life not work.

The upper echelons of business have a vested interest in maintaining a dog eat dog work place.
Make everyone financially independant and the ball of wax falls apart.

Anyone proud to put in 60+ hr weeks is being rather foolish.
No one is able to concentrate effectively for such periods and is ultimatly playing games.
The US - to me - has a fantastic work ethic.
Get the job done - NOW.
Remember though that senior management can be outsourced and increasingly will be.

As the US tax system moves over to a consumption model a lot of middle earners are in for a little surprise. A long term one.

It won't matter a jot once oil supplies run down.
The world will be at war.
Anyone fer 60 hrs pw in a foxhole?

[werz]

I've noticed in large companies this is typycal,http://www.ourcivilisation.com/worst.htm#Rule2
although I've only been in the work force for 38 years, and most of the in companies with more than 5,000 employees.

[tantone]

Originally posted by ukulele
Well, when you make statements like, "I think it's a fairly simple concept. Generally, it's safe to say that as the intelligence requirement increases for a position so will the pay." and "You don't need to be smart to clean a hospital or a restaurant. You don't need brain power higher than that of a bird to do the kinds of jobs that pay low wages." I have to ask myself why, because these people are not as smart, they have to be payed grossly lower wages then someone who sit's a desk in an easy IT job. I don't buy that nonsense that they work harder and deserve more. That's like saying the guy that cleans your toilet everyday is not working as hard as you. That's a disgusting, self centered point of view that is not worthy of a society that continues to brag about how moral they really are. That's like endorsing the caste system of old India. I'm certainly not advocating communism here, just common respect for people not as fortunate in the brains department. When you put yourself above another just because you are better educated you demean others with the excuse that they are lazy when in fact that may not be the truth at all. I'll tell you why...it's because ANYONE can do those jobs. If the janitor quits, you can easily find a replacement.

No one said they weren't working as hard. It's hard in a totally different way. When I get home, my feet aren't killing me, my eyes are. I'm paid for what I know and what I can do with that knowledge. I think that's worth a hell of a lot more $ than someone who has no skills that might help them negotiate themselves a better deal.

Going back to what I said in a previous post, "If you aren't constantly trying to move up then you deserve to be where you are and I have no sympathy for you. If you are there temporarily and are trying to improve your future, then again I don't sympathize because you don't need it and probably don't want it."

[tantone]

when a person continually screws up, but learns to blame everyone else, then his position in a company will rise and his pay will increase. Call me crazy (I probably am! :D ), but that sounds like they learned how to work the system instead of letting the system work them.

EDIT:
I actually used to work with a guy like that, except instead of trying to get promoted he was just trying to keep his job. With a bit of social engineering and some slight underhandedness, I was able to make his faults and screw-ups light up like a Christmas tree and he was replaced with a decent worker. Do what you can to change things--if I just sat around complaining about the guy I'd have just been miserable.

[porsch1909]

what have i done.......cant we all just be happy!

i mean i just passed my driving test first time W00t!! :D

[werz]

tantone, I just posted a link of examples of the types who run businesses and shouldn't be trusted to be janitors, it will only take a couple of minutes to look at it.

[tantone]

I read it. It lists a few very specific examples of some pretty big cretins. It means nothing overall.

You don't think there are several examples of people working minimum wage jobs who are deliberately bilking the gov't and the taxpayers out of pure, unadulterated laziness. Based on your logic, I should say that all people at the bottom are lazy. I don't think that's the case, though. Do you because it's the logical conclusion to your article. "All the people at the top are scum. All the people at the bottom are lazy. All the people in the middle are not quite scum but are only slightly lazy."

If you're going to use that kind of logic, the apply it acorss the board. Otherwise, realize that there are scum everywhere but the CEOs and CFOs are going to get more publicity than Joe Smith the convenience store robber.

[werz]

I dont defend anyone who rips off the system or by extension us, but putting an incompetent person in any position shows that those who approve them for the job are equally incompetent.

[tantone]

So, if that's all you were trying to say, why the "scum rises to the top" statement? There are a LOT of exceptions. The scum are the few.

[ukulele]

I'll tell you why...it's because ANYONE can do those jobs. If the janitor quits, you can easily find a replacement.

That is a typical upper management response. I'd like to see any really bright upper management type worker last one day cleaning toilets. No sir, what they are much better at is taking advantage of less skilled or less educated people to do their work for them. I would know, I have done both. Just tell it like it is. Nobody wants to hear you tooting your own horn like you are a better man and deserve more money just because you are more educated.

[zybch]

Originally posted by tantone
So, if that's all you were trying to say, why the "scum rises to the top" statement? There are a LOT of exceptions. The scum are the few.

The cream of the workforce always rises to the top, but other things float too, not just cream!

[leprechaun_40]

Yah, it's working great, now all the SOB's in india have jobs and the US is becoming a 3rd world nation of poor bastages who can't pay their bills,, works great if ya ask me. Next the Prez will try to make a communist or Nazi country outa it, oh wait, he's already workin on that one.:mad:

[zybch]

Its called Zionism. Look it up.

[herosrest]

lt's a difficult thing to criticise the US Government without things getting out of hand.
The UK does appear to be riding out the current oil crisis rather well at the moment.

There is an energy crisis - what are the press reporting.

[ukulele]

There is no energy crisis. There is a SUV crisis.

[herosrest]

:D

[werz]

Originally posted by ukulele
That is a typical upper management response. I'd like to see any really bright upper management type worker last one day cleaning toilets. No sir, what they are much better at is taking advantage of less skilled or less educated people to do their work for them. I would know, I have done both. Just tell it like it is. Nobody wants to hear you tooting your own horn like you are a better man and deserve more money just because you are more educated.
Education is only useful for the contacts they make at private schools, a better scammer would be more precise, I would like to see a graph with the IQs of all employees in a typical company, and I'm sure you would find that for a few exceptions the the CEO and a competent motor mechanic would be close, although my money goes on the MM. I hear thick office types talk about how they haven't a clue about how the car works, yet assume they are more intelligent than a MM because they sit in an office shuffling papers and the MM works with his hands, as though his hands do the work seperate of his brain, which anyone with a brain knows all skilled work is 90% assessing the job understanding the system finding the problem from a number of things and only then fixing it. Which is far to complicated for an office worker/executive to do.

[Johnny Fist]

The thing is, a good mechanic will make as much money as a good paper pusher.

[werz]

Your right to a point, until you get to the top exec's on the $250,000pa plus, and also there are the scammer mechanics who take advantage of the dumb office types, tell them the have cleaned and aligned the injectors when all they did was a minor adjustment, cleaned the engine so it looks like they did something, you know visual progress like shuffling papers around the desk without looking at any, then delegating to another employee and taking the credit if its right or passing the blame if it goes wrong. But that comes under using the system not getting used by it, it would be a happier place if everyone did a fair days work for there pay but to some scamming and using others is there work, its the only thing they know how to do, take advantage of anothers work ethic.

[zybch]

Originally posted by Johnny Fist
The thing is, a good mechanic will make as much money as a good paper pusher.

Nope. His boss might, but the mechanic will get only slightly more than the minimum wage unless he works for himself.

[Johnny Fist]

I think you're a bit out of the loop. Mechanics make fairly decent money. They don't make hundreds of thousands of dollars, but they do well. If they're good, that is.

[zybch]

Only if they work for themselves. As soon as you consider that most of them work for someone else the average earnings drop down/

[werz]

Originally posted by tantone
So, if that's all you were trying to say, why the "scum rises to the top" statement? There are a LOT of exceptions. The scum are the few.
If there are so few of them, how is it we can all give personal experiences of this self serving type, it's not necessary to try to analyse the article I posted, to change it, its obvious what the examples infered, why you feel all non executives or manual workers are lazy is not obvious to me, I would think it's the same proportion as upper management, although with the salaries and bonuses the execs pay themselves you would expect less mistakes and more effort on behalf of the company, not just there own interests.
yet the opposite is closer to the truth.

[tantone]

1. I'd like you to point out to me where in my post I stated that I felt "all non executives or manual workers are lazy." If you read it, I think you'll find I said the opposite.

2. We can all give examples of the scum at the top just like we can all give examples of lazy ppl at the bottom, and vice-versa. If you're willing to be honest with yourself, there's someone to complain about at every single level of society, in every workplace, in every social class, and in every government agency.

If y'all enjoy your lives, always complaining and griping about the guys at the top, then keep on enjoying it. Personally, I think anyone who has that much anger and resentment about ppl who have never personally done anything to them have more problems than the people they resent.

If you want to be a mechanic, fine. We need mechanics. And, yes, I personally know jack about cars so I'll pay good money to have them fix mine. But don't become a mechanic and then complain that you should be getting the kind of money an executive makes, or that the executive should have his salary lower because you do more "actual" work than they do.

If you're out to change the way the world works, have fun trying but realize you're going to die of old age with no progress made.

Either learn to play the game, or leave the arena so the rest of us don't have to listen to you whine.

If you liberals spent as much time on your own lives as you spend disparaging the "scum at the top" you might realize things aren't as bad as you think they are.

[tantone]

Just as an added comment about the IQs of car mechanics and desk-jockeys, so what if the office guy can't fix his own car. I'd sure like to see the mechanic point out miscalculations in a new product business analysis spreadsheet.

[ukulele]

Originally posted by tantone
Just as an added comment about the IQs of car mechanics and desk-jockeys, so what if the office guy can't fix his own car. I'd sure like to see the mechanic point out miscalculations in a new product business analysis spreadsheet.

It takes a lot more skill to fix a car these days.

[tantone]

For the sake of argument, let's say it took twice the intelligence to fix a car than work out complex break-even equations. Now let's say that you know going into your career that the average salary of a mechanic was 25% less than that of a financial analyst (most people with half a brain know what their salary horizon looks like).

You'd have to be pretty obtuse to become a car mechanic and then whine about how the financial analyst makes a lot more money, wouldn't you?

[porsch1909]

This has what to do with outsourcing?:confused:

[ukulele]

Originally posted by tantone
For the sake of argument, let's say it took twice the intelligence to fix a car than work out complex break-even equations. Now let's say that you know going into your career that the average salary of a mechanic was 25% less than that of a financial analyst (most people with half a brain know what their salary horizon looks like).

You'd have to be pretty obtuse to become a car mechanic and then whine about how the financial analyst makes a lot more money, wouldn't you?

I have done both and it is far more difficult and skilled a job to take an engine apart and put it back together correctly. I am good at both mechanics and mathematics but I work as an artist which pays less then both and requires even more skill and concentration. On top of that I have creative ability that can't be taught. I make less money then both the financial anyalst and a good car mechanic, but I am happier then most that I know. If your idea of success is how much money you make you are the one who is obtuse.

[tantone]

Everyone's idea of success is different.

If your idea of success is being an artist, then congratulations!

However, successful people shouldn't need to whine about the salaries of the jobs they don't have. You want that salary? Go get that job. You don't want that job? Stop whining about the salary you don't have.

Some people just can't live without something to complain about.

[herosrest]

That brings us quite neatly to the topic of marriage and how to outsource she who must be obeyed.
l'm sure there must be a painless way? :rolleyes:

[tantone]

Sure. But they're inflatable.

[Johnny Fist]

Whats the point in comparing the two trades/professions though? Neither one is even remotely connected and the skill sets and talents required to do both jobs aren't even in the same arena. Both jobs are respectable and earn an honest wage.

[zybch]

Not connected at all, thats right.
A mechanic has to pay for any of his mistakes and therefore know what he is doing or he'll end up broke, a manager/ceo doesn't.

[herosrest]

Originally posted by tantone
Sure. But they're inflatable.


:D Hehe. The way things are lately, l'm grinning at the idea of blowing her up. Mucho C4.

[tantone]

Tell that to Ebbers, zybch.

You have an obvious contempt for anyone in any type of executive position. There needs to be people like you to keep them more honest than the above CEO. But it's still pretty sad.

Glad you live where you do, being a whiner and all. We're already at capacity here in the US.

[j.m@talk]

I don't think bosses are Gods either........ But ya right zybch is a prat :p

[zybch]

If they do a good job, and don't screw their underlings, I have nothing bad to say about managers and CEOs, unfortunatley this isn't often the case.
Instead, they make stupid decisions which affects the employees at the expense of making a buck. Most managers don't have a clue what happens down 'on the floor', at least the ones that I have had to work with.
They are insulated from making any tough decisions, and if they do stuff something up, it gets blamed on someone else.

I honestly believe that anyone who reaches the management level should have to spend a couple of weeks a year doing what the workers do. Thats all thats needed to keep them grounded in reality rather than Management Fairyland where most of them reside.
If my previous bosses had done that instead of only looking at the bottom line and how sacking 1/2 the staff and making the remaining ppl work twice as hard with no regard to the actual job, everyone would have been much better off.

[Johnny Fist]

Unfortunetley a good boss isn't usually well liked. I've been in that boat before, too, and its tough sometimes. Noone wants to be disliked but its part of the job.

[j.m@talk]

Ohh I dunno ........ Tiz quite fun being Bad-Cop somtimes :D

[tantone]

Funny you should mention that zybch. I know of several household name companies who DO make their employees (managers too) work in the stores during their time with the company.

I think either:

a) you have worked for sub-standard companies (and once a company is standardizes on sub-stantard practices, they're not likely to change without a major business catasrophe)

b) you are just a sub-standard employee who only saw the bad cop in your managers

On a side note...if you want to create better managers, the first step is to stop promoting based on ANYTHING other merit. Affirmative action should be abolished. Remove names, gender and race from resumes and hire based solely on the resume and experience. Promote on the same principles and you'll have a much better company. Seniority means jack to me. However, this is unlikely to change, so learn to play their game.

[zybch]

Originally posted by Johnny Fist
Unfortunetley a good boss isn't usually well liked. I've been in that boat before, too, and its tough sometimes. Noone wants to be disliked but its part of the job.

If the staff can see that the boss really understands the buisness and is prepared to work for 2 weeks each year with them instead of commanding from on high, they will be much more forgiving about any decisions the boss makes but aren't liked.
Instead these decisions are made with at best, only a rudimentary knowledge of the actual work being done, and are guided by columns of numbers rather than reality.
Of course, fiscal profitibility does need to be taken into consideration, but there are good and bad ways to do this. Because the bad ways are easier, thats what bosses generally do.

[j.m@talk]

I opt for B. :t

[tantone]

Originally posted by zybch
If the staff can see that the boss really understands the buisness and is prepared to work for 2 weeks each year with them instead of commanding from on high, they will be much more forgiving about any decisions the boss makes but aren't liked.
Instead these decisions are made with at best, only a rudimentary knowledge of the actual work being done, and are guided by columns of numbers rather than reality.
Of course, fiscal profitibility does need to be taken into consideration, but there are good and bad ways to do this. Because the bad ways are easier, thats what bosses generally do. Wrong again. Just because you can't understand why a decision was made at your level doesn't mean it was based on rudimentary knowledge.

[j.m@talk]

The Term "Flogging Dead Orse" Jumps to mind :t

[Johnny Fist]

I had two rules that I always kept in mind when being a supervisor

1) Don't tell someone to do something I'm not willing to do myself.

2) Every man is valuable and his job important no matter what his position.

Keep those two rules in mind and you may be disliked for having to "motivate" people when they don't want to be motivated, but you will always be respected. That respect is whats important.

[zybch]

Originally posted by tantone
Funny you should mention that zybch. I know of several household name companies who DO make their employees (managers too) work in the stores during their time with the company.

I think either:

a) you have worked for sub-standard companies (and once a company is standardizes on sub-stantard practices, they're not likely to change without a major business catasrophe).
The company I worked at for the longest falls into this category. The managers would prowl the floor once a week with clipboard in hand and berate people for not meeting their targets. When targets were exceeded by a significant ammount, there was no 'good work', but instead they got annoyed because of the extra comission they had to pay out.

They always told us to do whatever we thought would bring in more profit, but when HP released their Pavillion line of PCs, I ordered 20 of the things because our buying office didn't think they'd sell and so didn't order any.
They all sold in under a week, but instead of being told well done, we were told 'do that again and you'll lose your job'. We made the buying office and management look bad and incompetant (as well as raking in heaps of comisison) but rather than learning from that, the managers blamed me and threatened my job because I'd done what they had told us to (show initiative).

Have a guess where my somewhat less than rosy opinion of managers comes from.


Originally posted by tantone
b) you are just a sub-standard employee who only saw the bad cop in your managers

LOL :)
I know this wasn't the case. Each year when I took my holidays, I'd get back and find the place almost in ruins. Orders not processed, excess stock just sitting about in boxes etc etc.
Thats the reason that I quit 1 week before christmas, just to show them they shouldn't take good workers for granted.


Originally posted by tantone
On a side note...if you want to create better managers, the first step is to stop promoting based on ANYTHING other merit. Affirmative action should be abolished. Remove names, gender and race from resumes and hire based solely on the resume and experience. Promote on the same principles and you'll have a much better company. Seniority means jack to me.

You think that'll ever happen?

[herosrest]

This item is lifted from somewhere or other.

Ring an bells?

' In the world of computers, hacking used to refer
to the manner in which programmers would
sit for hours on end at a console on a big old
mainframe computer and work and work,
foregoing sleep and food (but never foregoing coffee!)
until a problem that had reared its ugly head was solved
and the machine was humming along nicely once again.
I was once just such a programmer and know
from experience that if anybody asked me how it was
going, or what I was doing to solve the problem,
I would invariably answer with something
like "I don't know. Now leave me alone!"

It wasn't that I actually didn't know,
or that I was being anti-social; it was simply
that I couldn't afford to have my concentration
broken. Nevertheless, it created the impression
of "unskillful chopping" at the problem, groping for a solution.
If they eventually came to the conclusion that I was a hero for
averting the crisis, I wouldn't know -- I was home sleeping!


:r

[zybch]

Just came across this:

Here are the results from a recent ABCNEWS.com online ballot:


How do you see your CEO?

As a future felon, 12.3 percent
As a great leader, 23 percent
Getting a lot of cash for not much, 64.6 percent

[leprechaun_40]

Originally posted by zybch
Just came across this:

Here are the results from a recent ABCNEWS.com online ballot:


How do you see your CEO?

As a future felon, 12.3 percent
As a great leader, 23 percent
Getting a lot of cash for not much, 64.6 percent

I'd like to see them either in prison with a guy named Crankshaft or dead personally:r

[ShadeZeRO]

Originally posted by mireland
it DOSEN'T FREAKIN WORK DUDE!


I had to call microsoft the other day..the guy(from india) just BARELY spoke good enough english for me to understand him...:mad:

:) He did giv me the cricket scores, and the weather lol :D

Outsourcing is kinda bad, i mean, somethings SHOULD be out sourced.

Jap dvd players, etc, are all great, and i luv jap cars too (and german ofcourse)...

food and stuff should stay in the US, refinement work (steel, etc) should stay in the US also.

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by ShadeZeRO
:) He did giv me the cricket scores, and the weather lol :D

Outsourcing is kinda bad, i mean, somethings SHOULD be out sourced.

Jap dvd players, etc, are all great, and i luv jap cars too (and german ofcourse)...

food and stuff should stay in the US, refinement work (steel, etc) should stay in the US also.

As Joe Dolce once said ............ "Shaddapa Yer Face" Or BA Barracus ..... "Shaddap Fool" :D


:t

[Johnny Fist]

http://www.legendarytv.com/the_a-team/wallpaper/the_a_team_ba_1_800.jpg

[porsch1909]

Well india lost so there :p

Just wait for the ODIs now :(