Michael Moore Backpedals on Key Premise of Documentary

[Vampiel]

http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewPolitics.asp?Page=\Politics\archive\200407\POL 20040728c.html
Boston (CNSNews.com) - Left-wing filmmaker Michael Moore on Tuesday appeared to back off his earlier allegation regarding President Bush's involvement in the flights of Saudi Arabian citizens out of the U.S. in the days following the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.

[AdamST]

The opinion of the writer/editor.

Not news.

[zybch]

It also pays to remember that when the film was made, all the facts were accurate.
If things have changed a bit since then, its not the filmmaker's fault. You also have to remember that the media have generally shown Moore in a negative light (probably because he pointed out how they don't accuratley report unbiased news) and will pounce on any little thing, even if it isn't news worthy, just to discredit him.

Especially when Moore says thing like this (which seem pretty spot on):

And I know a lot of people have seen my film and the obvious--[cheers]--the bad guy in the movie is George W. Bush. But there's the unstated villain in the film. And that's our national media. You've seen the film. Right? (applause). A lot of them are mad at me right now because--[laughter]--I can't go on a show without them, you know. But I would be mad if I were them too, because the film outs them. It outs them as being for the Bush administration. It outs them as people who were cheerleaders for this war. It outs them as, to be kind to those who are actually good journalists, journalists who fell asleep on the job. Journalists who didn't ask the hard questions.


Check out the following few pages that list point by point the key facts that F/911 used.
Link (http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/)

[Vampiel]

Originally posted by AdamST
The opinion of the writer/editor.

Not news.

You didnt read the article.

It also pays to remember that when the film was made, all the facts were accurate.

bzzz

He new about this before the movie was released.

[Johnny Fist]

Who cares? Its just a movie made my a fat immigrant anyway.

[Vampiel]

He was born in the US.

[AdamST]

Americans like to put down immigrants for reasons i will never understand. Funny becasue every Americans, not counting Native Americans ARE immigrants. Also why is someone who came to America from say, China and gets there citizenship less of an American who was born there.

In Canada we use the term. "New Canadians" We treat them as a blessing, you treat them as a burden.

[Vampiel]

I never said that, I believe you are referring to 'carpet bomb them', not me. You also obviously didnt read the article... it wasnt an opinion.

FYI if you want to put it that way, 'native americans (indians)' were immigrants as well. As were Canadians, and almost everyone else on the planet.

[werz]

"I really hope they don't re-elect that fool," US soldier Michael Pederson wrote to his mother before he was killed in Iraq. Pederson was talking about Bush.
just a sentence from farenheit 9/11. GWB and his misleading of the US public to drag it into another unwinnable war and you still support the guy, come on Vampiel, see through his lies, any discrepancies by M.M. are very little in comparison.

[PacNW CE]

Originally posted by Vampiel
I never said that, I believe you are referring to 'carpet bomb them', not me. You also obviously didnt read the article... it wasnt an opinion.

FYI if you want to put it that way, 'native americans (indians)' were immigrants as well. As were Canadians, and almost everyone else on the planet.

And so it all started in a small strip of land between the Tigris and Euphreties rivers (Ironically close to Baghdad) where Adam and Eve got it on and made little Adams and Little Eves. Now from there, the next generation should have been web fingered or banjo plucking bald hillbillies.

OK.... We are all immigrants. I guess....:rolleyes:


Your pencant to argue leads me to believe you arn't married. :p

I am sure you will take offense and reltaliate with a series of witty and quasi intelegent statements about the migration of Humans accross the ice shelf between the former USSR and Alaska as proof of native Americans being "immigrants".


Oh and by the way, intelegent Americans (which unfortunately is limited to roughly 20% of the population) recognize Immigrant Americans as nothing less than regular Americans. Personally, I don't care where you are from or what job you do, if you produce quality work.

[Vampiel]

PacNW CE, I was using AdamST's own argument against him. I never said it is what I believed.

[zybch]

I'm not sure the facts were known when the film was being made over a year ago.
Even if they were, it doesn't really change anything.
The bush administration let them go.
Bush isn't the one personally killing iraqis, but its because of this madman's orders that the killings are occurring in the name of making the world more peaceful.

[bushmaster]

Bottom line is this country is being pillaged by the Bush/Cheney regime and will eventually be left in a major state of ruin, and as such will be ripe for the plucking by some charismatic snake charmer who will lead us down the rosey path of this piece of real estate becoming another 3rd world country run by a revolutionary turned Castro.
God I hope I'm wrong and stark raving mad out of my mind.

[werz]

slowly but surely the west is being changed for the worse, globalisation means sending our jobs to the lowest paid workforce, in the name of profit, they expect the working people to go and die fighting there wars then make them jobless and homeless when they get back and are discharged (if they get back in 1 piece). If they expect the people to be patriotic then the multinational corporations that make there profits off the American public, then whinge that wages are to high here if they have to pay honest people to do the work, all companies closing down American departments whether in telecommunications or manufacturing and sending the jobs to cheap labor countries should be boycotted till they understand the meaning of being patriotic, and start supporting the countries they are from.

[Strawbs]

Originally posted by werz
slowly but surely the west is being changed for the worse, globalisation means sending our jobs to the lowest paid workforce, in the name of profit, they expect the working people to go and die fighting there wars then make them jobless and homeless when they get back and are discharged (if they get back in 1 piece). If they expect the people to be patriotic then the multinational corporations that make there profits off the American public, then whinge that wages are to high here if they have to pay honest people to do the work, all companies closing down American departments whether in telecommunications or manufacturing and sending the jobs to cheap labor countries should be boycotted till they understand the meaning of being patriotic, and start supporting the countries they are from. Not sure where "Gothan City" is located, but nice post anyway!

On the "Immigrant" thing - One surefire way to stop the natives complaining\suing about land ownership rights is to kill them off before they realise what's happening! That only happened in America. :(

[zybch]

We started doing exactly that here in australia. We'd totaly wiped out the indigenous population of tasmania and were about to start on the mainland.
I'm not sure what happend after that.
At least they haven't built any casinos yet.

[Strawbs]

What can I say - It must have been the British\European way at one time.

[werz]

the anglo's that went to the Americas just tried to finish what the Spanish started.
In Australia the just resented sharing the land which they wanted for there sheep, and left the virus's and other diseases to wreak there havoc.

[Billforce]

Backpeddling???, I wonder why. Playing up the idea of truth....this phony liar wouldn't recognize the truth if it hit him in his ugly head.

[zybch]

If this turns out to be true then Moore should be dragged over the coals about it.
However, to have some sort of parity Bush should be dragged over the coals for doing exactly the same (re WMDs).
I can't name a single person, let alone 1000+ that have been killed by Morre's 'massaging the truth' in the context of misquoting a paper to make a point.
I can think of a man who did exactly the same kind of thing (this time with CIA inteligence) and has the blood of more than a thousand people on his hands. Who could that be I wonder?

The paper itself is indicating that its not upset at all by the huge $1 reperation fee it wants. If it had any real issue with Moore, they'd be wanting more, much much moore.

Lets keep things in perspective here.
On one hand we have Moore, a film maker (forget documentary maker) who, to get his points across, takes a small ammount of license. If this is what is required to get people talking about things they should rightfully be worried about, and the changes are small and sometimes unintentional (all facts about 9/11 were true at the time of the film's making), then no real harm has been done.

Then we have Bush, heir aparent to the Bush billions (mostly Saudi billions it now seems).
A man who bought himself the presedency and has been steadily eroding the american public's civil liberties and constitutional rights.
A man who not only massaged the truth a little, but outright lied about the whole Iraq thing when he knew the truth. A man whos actions have allready led to over 1000 US (not including soldiers from other nations) soldier's lives being lost, all for a lie.
There never were, nor never have been the WMDs in Iraq that Bush told the world there were.
The most Moore did was just shuffle a few pages and dates, not to rewrite the whole paper based on lies, like Bush has done.

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by Billforce
this phony liar wouldn't recognize the truth if it hit him in his ugly head.

Ya don't like him too much then ;)



:t

[mireland]

Originally posted by Billforce
Backpeddling???, I wonder why. Playing up the idea of truth....this phony liar wouldn't recognize the truth if it hit him in his ugly head.


same goes for bush..i.e iraq... http://www.fancysplace.com/smileys/angst.gif

[Billforce]

Originally posted by mireland
same goes for bush..i.e iraq... http://www.fancysplace.com/smileys/angst.gif

Really too bad that the "liberal losers" are going to have to get used to the idea of having him for 4 more years.:t

[mireland]

Originally posted by Billforce
Really too bad that the "liberal losers" are going to have to get used to the idea of having him for 4 more years.:t

I'm not liberal or conservative..I just don't think he did a good job as president..unfortunatly since I hate bush and don't care for kerry..I'll have to vote for nader which is basicly voting for bush..boy talked about being ****ed no matter WHAT you do...:mad:

[j.m@talk]

Bring Back Ross Peroit :t

[Strawbs]

Bring back Densil Washington! although I have to say the pictures on the bank notes don't look anything like how he appears in the movies. what gives?

[j.m@talk]

Dodgy ink I recon :D

[zybch]

Originally posted by Billforce
Really too bad that the "liberal losers" are going to have to get used to the idea of having him for 4 more years.:t

I dunno. While opinion polls don't hold much water in my book, dubya's currently in a position that no president (incumant or challenger) has ever made/retained the office of president from.

[Billforce]

Originally posted by mireland
I'm not liberal or conservative..I just don't think he did a good job as president..unfortunatly since I hate bush and don't care for kerry..I'll have to vote for nader which is basicly voting for bush..boy talked about being ****ed no matter WHAT you do...:mad:

I am definetley a conservative BUT not pro BUSH. I think he has made some rash decisions, although we may not understand the entire scope of his reasoning. I am OPPOSED to John Kerry (real name Cohn, family adopted name after County Kerry, Ireland) as presidential timber because of his contrived, false military record and his association with subversive governments. He is simply not FIT to be the leader of the largest economy in the world.

Read Kerry's voting record (attrocious) and his inability to adhere to any POLICY regardless of what way he may lean on any given day.

He is arrogant, crude and has the appeal of green poop in a punch bowl. He keeps allowing feelings of ADEQUECY to creep into his dissartations. He couldn't lead a pig out of a blind alley.

In a period of extreme unrest and danger in the world, we need a leader with STONES, not a New England yuppie, rich spoiled brat
phony to lead us. The country will elect George W. Bush to another term because they are AFRAID NOT TO. In a time of distress, they want someone they can trust not to give the country away via the U.N. etc.

[zybch]

You need a leader with stones, absolutley, but not in his head like bush seems to have. Haven't you seen the 7 minutes worth of footage of dubya in that clasroom reading 'my pet goat' while the trade centre towers were hit?
What about Bush's false military record? I bet Kerry didn't go AWOL, or need to censor his military duty records to protect his buddies that now make millions out of the whole saudi and iraq thing.

Billforce, just ask yourself this. Would you have still voted for Bush back in 2000 if you knew what you know about him now?

2004 does seem like a contest between Tweedle Dumb and Tweedle Dumber, but do you really think that the US can afford another term under the misleadership of Bush (and more importantly, all his billion dollar buddies who seem to be the ones really running the place)?

[Vampiel]

Kerry is censoring his military records.

[Billforce]

You MUST be joking, vote for ALGORE in 2000. This idiot was probably the most dangerous inept person from the PERVERT REGIME of Klinton.

It is my evaluation (and I CAN vote, you can't) that the country will be far better off with Bush in the lead.

[zybch]

So Bush isn't dangerously inept? You should become a stand up comic.

[mireland]

Bush and Kerry can join hands and walk through the gates of hell together..:mad:

[j.m@talk]

Ummm )-|

[zybch]

Compare the publically available info on both Kerry and Bush.

Compare (http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2004/02/02_400.html)

[j.m@talk]

JM's concept ...........

Kerry ..... Flashy git
Bush....... Dodgy Git


Answer........... BUSH :t

From past behaviour )-|

[mireland]

Originally posted by j.m@talk
JM's concept ...........

Kerry ..... Flashy git
Bush....... Dodgy Git


Answer........... BUSH :t

From past behaviour )-|

I'm sure bush will win..and I'm sure every illegal in the U.S will be happy about that too...:(

[zybch]

Unless he produces Bin Laden from where the CIA has been keeping him for the past few months I'd say the outcome won't be certain.

No candidate has won the presidency from the same place that bush is, in the polls. Challenger or incumbent.

Having Bin Laden pop out of a cake might be dubya's only chance.

[Vampiel]

Originally posted by zybch
No candidate has won the presidency from the same place that bush is, in the polls. Challenger or incumbent.



That is incorrect. Every candidate since 1990 has gotten at least a 10% bounce in the polls after their convention. Seeing as to how Kerry only got around 5%, thats only good for Bush. He only needs that same bounce back to be ahead of Kerry again.

It will be neck and neck and only a few states will decide it. Ohio being the main one.

BTW Gore tried to get rid of the absentee ballots in 2000.

[zybch]

I'll see if I can find the site (It was a newspaper one) that gave that statement.

You also have to remember that there will most probably be a much higher voter turnout this time than in 2000 (34%).

[Billforce]

Forget the rhetoric, Bush hold an Electoral College majority of 217 to 193 for Kerry. The popular vote doesn't elect presidents.:p

Who cares who wins the popular vote, Geo. is a shoo-in in '04.

[Vampiel]

Looking at the polls right now will only favor Kerry because of the DNC, so the article is irrevalent. That has always happened and usually they got more of a bounce, but this year most voters are allready decided before the conventions and thats why the bounce will be small for both parties because the undecided voter base is much smaller. You have to wait until at least 3 days after the RNC to get a good idea of what the polls are saying. If Bush gets a bounce similar to Kerrys the polls will favor Bush.

You also have to remember that there will most probably be a much higher voter turnout this time than in 2000 (34%).
Most likely, but they will be for both parties. Not just the Democrats.

[zybch]

Bill, I love your optimism.

Vamp, the article I read didn't say that bush couldn't win. Just that nobody in the past has done so that was in the position bush is in now.

[Vampiel]

In what position? The polls? That is the point I was making, if that is the position the article is taking (with the polls).

[Vampiel]

Billforce I dont know were you are getting your information but Kerry has the lead right now in the electoral votes.

As I stated before, this is only because of the DNC that Kerry is ahead and it is likely Bush will get a bounce after the RNC to lead Kerry

http://www.tripias.com/state/

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by mireland
I'm sure bush will win..and I'm sure every illegal in the U.S will be happy about that too...:(

umm .................... Mireland .......... get with it will ya :t

[zybch]

He only got a tiny bounce though, 2% I saw on the telly last night.

[mireland]

Originally posted by j.m@talk
umm .................... Mireland .......... get with it will ya :t

I am..he's all for letting illegals have low paying jobs, because he says "white" people don't want them..hey an illegal can live off of 2 dollars an hour..the rest of us CAN'T! http://www.fancysplace.com/smileys/hand.gif



:D

[Vampiel]

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews848.html

Kerry is only leading by 5% in the popular vote. Thats the bounce he got.

Its all within the margin of error.

Basically its going to be close.

[j.m@talk]

Originally posted by zybch
He only got a tiny bounce though, 2% I saw on the telly last night.

Just how high does the cr@p to get before ya understand you are in trouble ?

[zybch]

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5568072/site/newsweek/

Bush 42%, Kerry 47%, Nader who cares.

It was a 4 point bounce.

[Vampiel]

Well there you go. A 4 point bounce can easily be made back after the RNC which would put it well within the margin of error (3%). Its going to be a close election so theres really no point looking at the polls, we will just have to wait until it happens.

[mireland]

Personally I'd like to see the people discover what idiots BOTH canidates were and everyone voted for Tom Cruise or someone...:D

[zybch]

What puzzles me is why the democrats decided to have their convention when they did. The 2004 olympics will suck any wind out of the democrat message; and the money for the election campaign will be lessened - Bush will be able to continue spending his Primary money until September and use his general election money from September to November. Kerry, however, will be out of money by July, because of a tough Primary, and then have to make his general election funds last from July to November.

It just makes no sense. Are they so sure of winning?

[Vampiel]

2004 olympics will suck any wind out of the democrat message, not in the US.

Kerry has plenty of money. His wife is affiliated with Heinz.

[zybch]

The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in essence, is Fascism -- Owneship of government by and individual, by a group or by any controlling private power.

Franklin Roosevelt.



To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and service, but is morally treasonable to the American public.

Teddy Roosevelt, 1918

[Vampiel]

Ummmm ok.)-|

[zybch]

I just though these 2 quotes were rather relevant considering how some people here beat up on michael moore so much.
I think he's even been called unamerican by people here, strange that a former leader would appear to posthumously endorse what hes trying to do :)

[Vampiel]

Criticism and lying are two different animals. Moore is a propaganda machine.

[werz]

and the whole administration aren't spouting propaganda along with the lies and misinformation.

[Vampiel]

Im talking about Moore, not anyone else, thats an entirely different subject to be adressed in another thread if you wish.

[werz]

and I replied he wasnt the only one who could do it.

[Vampiel]

Well at least you acknowledged that Moore is a propaganda liar, unlike some people.

[zybch]

Of course he is. Kind of.
In Fahrenheit 9/11 all the facts were correct at the time of the films making (some are now inaccurate, but thats not moore's fault).
What his detractors seem to have difficulty with, is seperating those facts from Moore's own opinons and the conclusions he draws from those facts.

Regarding Fahrenheit 9/11, Moore has never ever said that the film was going to be, or is, a balanced look at Bush. The detractors don't seem to grasp this either.
Because the film industry has incorrectly labeled the movie a documentary when of course its not, the moore bashers keep harping on about it being all one sided and not a fair reflection on what occurred at the time.
Of course its not, and was never meant to be that way, but the largely republican oriented media in the US keeps trying to get people to think that it was, perhaps in order to discredit it and its maker.

Everyone knows that Bush lied about a great many things, WMDs in Iraq, any Iraq link to the 911 terrorists, his relationship to Enron's Ken Lay, etc etc. Why do so many people think that come his 2nd term (if he buys enough votes again) he will suddenly stop lying and tell the whole Awful Truth?

[Vampiel]

In Fahrenheit 9/11 all the facts were correct at the time of the films making
No they werent.

[zybch]

How about this. The facts not sat upon by the GOP and those not twisted by the mainstream media were all pretty much accurate. The facts were all okay, but may people mistook moores own conclusions as facts when they weren't.
Is that better?

Here is Moore's list of the key points of 9/11 and the sources they were obtained from.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/
Its a little long, but everything that film says is covered.

[werz]

believe what you want to believe, and disregard what you dont.

[Vampiel]

Zybch, the facts he had available to him at the time he twisted.

1. Richard Clarke (who was his source of information) told him that it was he that authorized the flight of the bin-laden family, and yet Moore still implied that it was Bush who authorized it in his movie.

2. He manipulated a newspaper in the movie to fit his agenda. He literally changed what the paper said in his movie and flashed it on the movie screen his version of the paper, not what the paper actually said.

[zybch]

So you are saying that Bush didn't know of it? Of course he did, after all, his family has benefitted to the tune of more than $1.4 billion from the saudi royal family in funding of various bush businesses.

The paper bit doesn't really mean anything.
If the report are true and moore did fake it, then as I've said before, he should be hauled over the coals about it. What the possible fake paper was about isn't in dispute. Just the actual cutting and pasting done.

[Vampiel]

Richard Clarke (sorry got the first name wrong) stated and I quote.

http://www.hillnews.com/news/052604/Clarke.aspx

“It didn’t get any higher than me,” he said. “On 9-11, 9-12 and 9-13, many things didn’t get any higher than me. I decided it in consultation with the FBI.”

In an interview with The Hill yesterday, Clarke said, “I take responsibility for it. I don’t think it was a mistake, and I’d do it again.”

“I learned subsequently from talking to the staff that we thought Clarke authorized the flight and it did not go higher.”

[Vampiel]

O yea and just so you know, the Saudi's were not flown out until normal flights had resumed.

http://www.faqs.org/docs/911/911Report-346.html

First, we found no evidence that any flights of Saudi nationals,domestic or international, took place before the reopening of national

To the contrary,every flight we have identified occurred after national airspace

Source --9/11 panel

Clearly Moore had the resources to tell the truth, but he didnt. Richard Clarke is the one he got his information from.

[Vampiel]

And just to put things in perspective, Bill Clinton got a 16 point boost after his DNC.

[bushmaster]

The people have become sheep, baaaaaaaaaaaah!

[Vampiel]

The proper term would be 'useful idiots'.

[bushmaster]

Does anybody here think for one second that if Moore's film had been 100% undeniable facts,that could have toppled the Bush regime, that the movie, let alone it's creator would have ever been allowed to see the light of another day ?


To quote a former leader of our once great nation.


"We may congratulate ourselves that this cruel war is nearing its end.
It has cost a vast amount of treasure and blood. . . .
It has indeed been a trying hour for the Republic; but
I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes
me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war,
corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places
will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong
its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth
is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed.
I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety
of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war.
God grant that my suspicions may prove groundless."

Lets see if this post mysteriously goes "POOF" and is whisked away in a silent puff of censorship.

[Vampiel]

Does anybody here think for one second that if Moore's film had been 100% undeniable facts,that could have toppled the Bush regime, that the movie, let alone it's creator would have ever been allowed to see the light of another day ?


Like it matters if I quote the whole thing or not. Is that better?

How am I going to lose, ive allready won. Ive allready proven Moore is a liar.

So that would mean you have no idea what you are talking about. No surprise.
You only seem to do that when you know you're gonna loose

Or should I quote your entire post, would that make you feel better?http://americanforum.net/forums/images/smiles/089.gif

[zybch]

Back to half-quotes again I see.

You only seem to do that when you know you're gonna loose :)

[Strawbs]

Originally posted by Vampiel
Does anybody here think for one second that if Moore's film had been 100% undeniable facts,Originally posted by zybch
Back to half-quotes again I see.;)

[zybch]

http://liesofbush.com/images/cartoon_tradetowers.jpg

[Vampiel]

Like it matters if I quote the whole thing or not. Is that better?
;)

[Strawbs]

Originally posted by Vampiel
Like it matters if I going to lose.

that would mean you no what you are talking about. No surprise. http://americanforum.net/forums/images/smiles/089.gif :D

[mireland]

I've already resigned myself to the fact bush will probably win the election..oh well, I guess we're like lemmings .."look, let's follow him...cliff? what cliff? we don't care"...:(

[Strawbs]

never know, you might get lucky! They're acting like the Dodo's in the "Ice Age" Movie (or so i'm told anyway http://www.fancysplace.com/smileys/icon_redface.gif), maybe they'll kill themselves off too.

[Vampiel]

Originally posted by mireland
I've already resigned myself to the fact bush will probably win the election..oh well, I guess we're like lemmings .."look, let's follow him...cliff? what cliff? we don't care"...:(

Lemmings dont run off cliffs.

[mireland]

Originally posted by Vampiel
Lemmings dont run off cliffs.

no, but apparently if bush does, so will the majority of the american people( they just can't seem to see the lies and stupidity and tend to blindly follow things) :(

[zybch]

You can thank good old Walt Disney for that one.
His filmmakers needed to show the 'plague' of lemmings and just how big it was, so they drove them over a cliff/into the sea whatever.
Lemmings have been maligned ever since :(

Link #1 (http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/lemmings.htm)

Link #2 (http://www.jimloy.com/biology/lemmings.htm)

[bushmaster]

I'm not here to win or lose, or to prove my opinions are right and others are wrong. Simply, I voice my take of it all and if somebody feels the needs to have a peeing match then they own that, not me.
God grant me the serenity.