FarCry v1.2 SM3.0 Path Analysis

[Midknyte]

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=2102

[Midknyte]

Here's another article from Guru3D:
http://www.guru3d.com/article/gamereviews/137/

[Midknyte]

Another review from Xbitlabs:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/farcry30.html

[Vampiel]

SM3.0 Strike's ATI's lead down with a vengance! What was it that someone was saying about 'higher resolutions'?

http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/farcry%20sm3%20benches_07010410708/2784.png
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/farcry%20sm3%20benches_07010410708/2786.png
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/farcry%20sm3%20benches_07010410708/2788.png
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/farcry%20sm3%20benches_07010410708/2790.png
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/farcry%20sm3%20benches_07010410708/2792.png

Wham bam slam thank you maim!

ATI's got nothing. Now I would say the nvidia 'blows away' the ATI. The KING of the hill has been decided.

Hey as you can see, that's extra performance people. We measured an up to 25% (not overall) performance increase on the overall framerate which makes Shader Model 3 somewhat more interesting then it did a few weeks ago.

[Midknyte]

This is just one game, but it does show the potential for SM3.0 and DX9.0c. It's still hard as heck trying to find these cards, though. :(

[Vampiel]

Yea, and this is the one game that ATI particularly dominated in before, and now it's lacking. That should tell you alot about sm3.0. Though I did not expect much quality increase if any with a patched game, I still believe there will be an increase in quality with games that are built from the ground up with sm3.0, especially for skin in model's which I didnt see any shot's of.

What are you going to buy now?;)


Attack it all you want ATI fan's but the result's speak for themselves.

[Midknyte]

remember that these demos were sent by Nvidia, so they are best case scenario. I'm still kinda wary especially with the whole detonator 44.03 optimization thing with 3dmark. Once bitten, twice shy. ;) That said, I am an Nvidia owner, so don't think I'm in the ATI camp by any means. I don't care if it's Nvidia or ATI; I just want the best card.

[Vampiel]

That's true! Still, it is a good amount of benchmarks, and the ATI did win w/o AA/AF on, so it does look like a good overall increase in performance with AA/AF on.

[Vampiel]

Sorry I just have to rub it in a litte. Nothing wrong with that :), still we will see what independent benchmark's come up with but I have a feeling the results will be simular.

[CrazyCrusher]

Originally posted by Midknyte
; I just want the best card.

I think we see it now ;) it was only a matter of time dare I say :)

[Midknyte]

LOL! no worries. :t

At least someone read the darn articles. :rolleyes: I was beginning to think that no one on Sysopt had played FarCry before. :p

[Vampiel]

I beat it in 15 hours, (almost non-stop heh). Awsome game, the best graphics out there as of now, it's sitting on my desk right now.

Usually I beat FPS in 6hours or less, this game was huge!

[PacNW CE]

Dude...

4xAA and 16x AF at 1600x1200.

Exactly who plays at this resolution with these settings?

I know, the point is Nvidia hardware is beating ATI again. Big deal, no way in hades am I going to drop $500 on a video card.

Congrats Nvidia, you win.

[CrazyCrusher]

ye it was awesome, I taught I had it beat when I was on the boat, when I shot that dude down, it made me jump a few times to, I have to say though multy players sucks a big one, way to laggy for my liking, but FPS is fantastic, it took me about 23 hours in total to beat it. It was hard to get away from it, Im playing it now again runs like a dream on my computer. and the grahics are out of this world, I think its cool that you can shot the fish out of the water, and the birds from the sky.

[Vampiel]

Originally posted by PacNW CE
Dude...

4xAA and 16x AF at 1600x1200.

Exactly who plays at this resolution with these settings?


LOL, apparently you did not read my argument in the main thread of ATI x800 vs. Nvidia6800, I said the same thing.

[PacNW CE]

Originally posted by Vampiel
LOL, apparently you did not read my argument in the main thread of ATI x800 vs. Nvidia6800, I said the same thing.

Yeah, I wasn't disagreeing with your premise that the 6800 is the new leader. I just don't have as much gumption to slam ATI about it. ATI made a stratigic decision to hold off the PS3.0 for what ever reason. I am not worried about it, as I just plucked a 9800 pro for just over 200 retail. It OC's up to near XT speeds, and doesn't require me to take out a loan.

:D

[Midknyte]

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/editorial/display/news26_glance_8.html

Looks like you'll have to wait for the R500 core for SM3.0.

[Magua]

Thats definately showing a much larger performance boost than I expected. Will be interesting to see how things stack up once more games get independantly tested. Go Nvidia :p

As for playing with the high settings, I always play at the maximum settings/resolution my computer can handle. I want the best looking game I can get.

[Vampiel]

It's yet to be seen if the quality will increase, at least the model's skin should look better with sm3.0. This game will not give you any difference in quality with the patch.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=2102

we'll clear the air before we start, and say that there will be no new eye candy available through the SM3.0 path. The game should be rendered exactly the same way it was under SM2.0

[Vitalka]

It doesn't show that King of the Hill is Nvidia, this year is not over yet. At the very end we will know, and right now it's just a show off. When year will be over will see who is the best. Each company had it's bad days. :t

[Vampiel]

Well it certianly show's what's in store for ATI's X800 once all of these sm3.0 games hit the market. I dont think anyone would rather have the ATI once they see these benchmarks, if it follows suit with other benchmark's with shader 3.

Nvidia has plucked the crown off of ATI's head.

[Vitalka]

Just a question, just how better SM3.0 looks better than SM2.0. No wonder Nvidia took lead with SM3.0 they can support it, but the game doesn't look any better. So cards with SM2.0 will do just as good. I think, for Far Cry, SM3.0 didn't do any good, it's still the same. So is there a point of buying Nvidia card now? ATI has the rest of the year for them selves, who knows what kind of surprise they have.

[Vampiel]

I know this is only 1 game, but might I remind you that it's the game that ATI really did better with sm2 vs sm2, which says alot about sm3's potential.

[Vampiel]

Originally posted by Vampiel
It's yet to be seen if the quality will increase, at least the model's skin should look better with sm3.0. This game will not give you any difference in quality with the patch.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=2102
we'll clear the air before we start, and say that there will be no new eye candy available through the SM3.0 path. The game should be rendered exactly the same way it was under SM2.0

[Vampiel]

Originally posted by Vitalka
Just a question, just how better SM3.0 looks better than SM2.0. No wonder Nvidia took lead with SM3.0 they can support it, but the game doesn't look any better. So cards with SM2.0 will do just as good. I think, for Far Cry, SM3.0 didn't do any good, it's still the same. So is there a point of buying Nvidia card now? ATI has the rest of the year for them selves, who knows what kind of surprise they have.

Because the Frames Per Second are much higher. SM3.0 makes the frame rate go, apparently, way up.

[CrazyCrusher]

Originally posted by Vitalka
ATI has the rest of the year for them selves, who knows what kind of surprise they have.
then again Nvidia have allready pulled one over there eyes with SLI, bet they didnt see that one coming, and this is only the start, rumor has it, Nvidia are allready working on something nice for next 1/4.

[Someone Stupid]

ATi actually is developing a solution. It isn't that big of a deal except in heavy rendering enviroments, so ATi is only losing out on a relatively small piece of sales. Yes, it is a nice feature, but your paying double for what you don't need. Do you need 120 FPS for a mere 1 grand or is 75 for 500 better? 500 is still steep, but still sounds to be the better deal.

I'm just waiting for more testing before purchasing. Who knows, with how other engines will react. Once the winner seems clear, then I'll lay down some money. SM3.0 is looking to be better than previously thought, but not for what most thought ironically. Most thought better graphics, just faster it seems (and there is nothing wrong with that :) ).

[Vampiel]

Read my other post's, the patch was not intended to increase quality, and they knew it would not. It was strictly performance.

Not saying that it will significantly look better, but I do think that it will make improvement's on the quality for future games, enough that it will be noticable when you are playing.

[Vampiel]

Originally posted by Midknyte
I was beginning to think that no one on Sysopt had played FarCry before. :p
Heh, look at this thread Midknyte

http://www.sysopt.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=163022&highlight=far+cry

[Someone Stupid]

I wasn't implying you said it was to increase quality, I was saying that is what most were expecting from SM3.0.

[Vampiel]

I was saying that the Far Cry patch was not intended to increase quality.

Not saying that SM3.0 will increase quality (though I believe it will) just that they did not implement sm3.0 with increased quality added to the feature's for the Far Cry patch. It was strictly perfomance.

[Someone Stupid]

Most shaders, such as in Half Life 2 are50 instructions in length, nvidia's demo was 300 instructions. I'm sure you don't have to go that high to get the full benefits, but to get a tangible IQ boost it will probably be another generation (to run at full fetails playable) from SM3.0 - though I'm happily willing to be proven wrong on this.

I agree it was meant to improve performance, and it did. If other titles show this type of improvement it could hurt. Still need to read beyond3d forums for their take on it though.

[Vampiel]

Originally posted by Someone Stupid
I'm sure you don't have to go that high to get the full benefits, but to get a tangible IQ boost it will probably be another generation (to run at full fetails playable) from SM3.0 - though I'm happily willing to be proven wrong on this.


I agree mainly. Though I believe there will be more immidiate benefit's when looking at the model's (particularly skin).

It's still yet to be seen. Though it seem's the performance benefit alone that has come to light should sway most buyer's.

ATI's downplaying this will only come back to haunt them.

[Someone Stupid]

The two companies still both have very strong cards and ATi hasn't done what nvidia did with their last series and long as they don't, I don't see it seriously hurting them. They may lose 2nd place, but they aren't going to be spit upon for releasing a card that had to be so crippled featurewise to get it to run competively as nvidia had done. That's one difference I see, the second is more practical. Both cards are insanely strong, so unless new engines can cripple these cards (maybe latter iterations of the D3 or HL2 engine), the sheer strength of both will make it a win in an odd way. The strength of the cards hurt whomever wins. ATi if it wins only has to deal with the fact that it actually has a competitor this round while nvidia has that and the PR issues from last generation. Also not many are able to run at 1600x1200 and at 12x10 they all peform quite well.

While one may turn out to be a winner, now it's finally gotten to the point that speeds are so fast that it's like trying to tell the difference btw a P4 with hyperthreading and P4 without, he difference is noticable, but it isn't anything to write home about. Unless your going for the ultimate high end and have no budget, either brand this round looks to be a decent buy - though SM 3.0 will probably add a bit of life to the card - yet by then they'll have probably rolled out the next Direct X and you'll be needing a new card to take advantage of the features. Isn't technology great. Worse than a robber, as the robber gets your wallet only once. :)

Now waiting on Doom 3 benches. :)

[Bigjakkstaffa]

SM3.0 seems to have been quite handy in Far Cry, image quality now seems to be up their on a par with ATi's (a lot of the nasty blockiness that was visible at the 6800U's launch is now gone) and the performance has taken a decent step up, which while not earth shattering (from the article i read a couple of days ago about 5FPS is about the average increase) fits perfecty with the "every little bit helps" adage.

However, the NVidiots needn't be thumping their tubs just yet, for a start this is only one game and i would hold reservation until say three titles become availiable, secondly Crytek are introducing 3Dc suport in the next patch (v1.3) which should see the image quality pendulum swing back ATi's way and may level the performance field, ifnot push it back Ati's way again.

SImilarly im also hearing rumblings about HDR (which works on the 9700 upover if im right) being used ti improve IQ but im not to sure about th ein's and outs of that particular bit of technology.

For more see this:
http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33767844

Indeed, with developents liek this and the imminnent arrival of SLI ATi systems i wouldnt be suprised if we see an ongoing game of "overtake and catchup" in the coming months, each card gazumping the other every few months.

--Jakk:t

[Vampiel]

I knew there would be an ATIier coming in here still in denial.:rolleyes:

Though I agree that we should still wait a bit more before we can really deduce what sm3.0 can do, but it sound's like you didnt even read the article bigJ.

I'd say a 20-25% increase is pretty much wooping ATI about now.

[Bigjakkstaffa]

I didnt read the anand article (though to qute it, afterall it seems to be precious to you: "We didn't see much improvement from the new SM3.0 path in our benchmarks either."), but i have read another, and when comparing the two flagship ranges the difference tend to be around 5FPS (now, is it me or werent the Nvidiots around here not harping on a while ago abotu how a few FPS didnt mean anything significant) in the 6800's favour, indeed, in some instances (i.e. certain maps in Far Cry) the 6800 doesnt even gain anything in terms of performance at all under the SM3.0 path. Similarly these 25% increases arent that much to cry about when one considers that in both Cat 4.6 and Cat 4.7 Beta (which im currently using and cannot fault) ATi have seen steady improvments in SM2.0 performance (about 5% in both driver sets respectively), ATi has far from bled its cards dry yet (as im sure Nvidia havent with the 6800 series)

Personally i'll wait and see what happens with 3Dc (which by the sounds of it is going to be used for performance purposes in Far Cry, and extensively by Valve in HL2) before declaring a victory either way. Indeed, the R500 with 3Dc and SM3.0 could be very interesting to say the least. Similarly having seen HDR shots from both Ati and Nvidia cards today, i think attentions may soon be shifting away from SM3.0 (which has yet to show IQ increases - okay so its only one game in) and towards HDR (which has - and very nices ones too).

Nvidia has a fragile hold over a single title at the moment (wowza - not much of a purchase clincher to me), a hold which could well be just as easily lost with the arrival of update v1.3.

At the end of the day it all depends which company can get developers on board, if Ati can get more big name games out utilising 3Dc then Nvidia will suffer, and vise-versa if Nvidia manage to flood the market with SM3.0 titles (not that any developer will willingly program for one to the major detrimet of the other, its bad for business). However, even if they do manage this, the set-back will probably only be a temporary one for ATi with the arrival of the R500, ATi's first genuine Next-Gen card, utilising both 3Dc and SM3.0 fillign the gap while work on the SM4.0 capable R600 is already well underway.

Personally i would much rather wait until 3Dc and SM3.0 are well established and used in games before thumping any tubs, but then Nvidia fan-boys havent had much to shout about over the last year, so maybe we should allow them a little whoop of excitment, wether it proves to be premature or not shall be seen ;)

--Jakk:t

[Vampiel]

I wouldnt really say im an nvidia fan boy, in fact I just replaced my fx5900 with a radeon9800pro.

I just look at the fact's and the benchmarks. Personally I think the 'ati fanboy's' are just trying to make up excuses. Given it should be allowed for more independant benchmark's to make a decision but I dont think NVidia would make up bogus benchmarks.

Just look at the benchmarks. Of course we could always 'wait for the upcoming new card by ati' but that doesnt mean anything for the current generation.

Benchmark's speak louder than words.

Also were is an article about ati's sli mode, I thought only NVidia was doing that?

[Bigjakkstaffa]

The SLI isnt an Nvidia only thing, its an Alienware patent, they are releasing both Ati and Matrox based SLI systems in the coming months.

I posted a few bits and bobs about it a coupel of weeks ago, a known Alienware employee went into some detail about the evolution of their SLI technology at Hardocp but was apparently made to remove hsi remarks by his employers :(. Still, it has been confirmed by Alienware from what i've read.

--Jakk:t

[Vampiel]

It's not an ATI thing then, it's an AlienWare thing. It's not like you are going to be able to just buy 2 x800's and throw them in sli like you can with the nvidia sli.

Alienware holds the patent's not ati.

It's and NVidia and AlienWare(shudder's) thing.

[Bigjakkstaffa]

Originally posted by Vampiel


Alienware holds the patent's not ati.


Thats what i said, and Alienware are producing Nvidia, Ati and Matrox SLI solutions.


Who said its an Ati thing, or an Nvidia thing for that matter :confused:? (i sure as hell didnt). Dont know where your getting that from, it isnt, its an alienware thing, no one but Alienware can do it as they hold the patent and they will decide which hardware they'll do it with - at present they have only launched the technology on the Nvidia platform, but have announced they will be releasing Ati and Matrox based SLI systems in the future - did i really have to repeat that for you?

--Jakk:t.

[Vampiel]

OK I think we are getting mixed up here.

NVIDIA hold's their own patent to SLI when they bought Voodoo, they are now releasing there own version of SLI. This is strickly an NVIDIA thing and Alienware has nothing to do with it. You can buy 2 6800's and combine them in your own system.

http://www.sysopt.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=165311

Alienware is coming out with there own version that you have to buy an alienware machine, the controller is by alienware, given whatever card they use is up to alienware.

ATI does not have an SLI mode they are coming out with.

[Bigjakkstaffa]

I see, yeah, Nvidias is their own Nvidia SLI, wheras Alienware are releasing "Video Array" which looks like its going to do the same thing, but on any platform.

http://www20.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20040629_101923.html

--Jakk:t

[Vampiel]

To bad alienware wont release just the controller card. I would love to get my hand's on one. Though im not sure if any old card would work for it.

[Bigjakkstaffa]

Originally posted by Vampiel
To bad alienware wont release just the controller card. .

My thoughts exaclty, but then Alienware always were one for squeezing as much money out of their customers as possible :(

--Jakk:t

[Midknyte]

Here's more from THG:
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20040705/index.html

[Vampiel]

Were's the Ultra Extreme? All I see is the Ultra, isnt the Ultra Extreme the best one for NVIDIA?

[Bigjakkstaffa]

Given the fact that availiability of the 6800U is still severely limited, i wouldnt exect to see much of the UE (or the X800XT PE either for that amtter) for a couple of months furthur still.

Interestingly, DH have pointed out that the v1.2 patch has decreased performance (8% is one figure ive heard bandied about) on ATi cards and introduced a number of bugs over the original v1.1 patch. As such, its reccomended that ATi users stay well away from updating Far Cry until v1.3, i wouldnt mind seeing an independently orchestrated v1.1 Ati vs v1.2 Nvidia benchamrk comparison though, as that would qualify the issue beyond doubt for me.

--Jakk:t

[Vampiel]

NVIDIA and Crytek have shown that SM 3.0 can indeed lead to performance improvements over an SM 2.0 implementation. This conclusion flies in the face of what ATi has been preaching for the last few months. In many of our FarCry tests, the NVIDIA cards can now pull ahead of their rivals from ATi. The GeForce 6800 GT makes an especially convincing appearance here, especially considering that, at $399, it costs just as much as its direct competitor the X800 Pro.
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20040705/farcry-12.html

This is w/o the UE but with the PE.

[Vampiel]

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/far_cry_sm30/page18.asp
In any case, Crytek deserves to be commended for integrating shader model 3.0 support so quickly into Far Cry. DX9.0c hasn’t been officially released, yet we already have an SM3.0-capable title to play with. GeForce 6800 owners should be happy with their purchase, and as good as it gets today, it will only get better in the coming months – we can’t wait to see the improvements SM 3.0 will bring to upcoming titles such as Splinter Cell X and S.T.A.L.K.E.R: Shadows of Chernobyl, two titles which will also take advantage of SM 3.0. Based on today’s results with Far Cry, things look very promising for any SM 3.0 capable software and hardware!

[Vampiel]

http://tech-report.com/etc/2004q3/farcry/index.x?pg=6
The new Far Cry patch does indeed seem to be a decent showcase for Shader Model 3.0's potential. The GeForce 6800 cards gain up to about 10% in average frame rates when using the SM3.0 code path. No, the differences aren't going to convert the masses into NVIDIA fanboys overnight, but they do show NVIDIA wasn't kidding about Shader Model 3.0 offering some advantages.
One thing we do know is that the GeForce 6800 seems to have some built-in headroom for performance gains.

[Vampiel]

http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=55&type=expert&pid=6
What we saw here at PC Perspective was a moderate to impressive increase in performance in FarCry with the new 1.2 patch enabling SM3.0 support on NVIDIA's 6800 series of cards.

[Vampiel]

http://www.guru3d.com/article/gamereviews/137/
Hey as you can see, that's extra performance people. We measured an up to 25% (not overall) performance increase on the overall framerate which makes Shader Model 3 somewhat more interesting then it did a few weeks ago. The performance increase is level dependant though and in some level just a few percent. The NVIDIA 6800 cards obviously have room for small performance gains making the 6800 series even more interesting.

[Vampiel]

Originally posted by Bigjakkstaffa
Interestingly, DH have pointed out that the v1.2 patch has decreased performance (8% is one figure ive heard bandied about) on ATi cards and introduced a number of bugs over the original v1.1 patch.

Except for the bug, but the frame loss is only with AA/AF turned off from what I have seen. Also it was a 'slight drop', 8% maye have been the maximum in one test.

[Someone Stupid]

Vamp, if your going to drop 20 links at once, could you please try to keep them in as few post as possible.

[Vampiel]

Heh, sorry, I was just reading through them as I posted them. It doesnt look like the sm3.0 patch is as big as nvidia made it out to be, though I didnt see many benchmarks that pitted the PE against the UE which isnt really fair. Some site's only pitted it against the ultra. Though it still tips it in NVIDIA's favor.

[Someone Stupid]

Can't blame the site. They can only benchmark what they only have. If nvidia isn't giving a lot of cards out, they can't be benchmarked by as many people.

I have a feeling this will be tipping back and forth madly this generation, even with the same games (as the FarCry patch). With SM 3.0 strictly nvidia and 3Dc and HDR ATi. Then again, so is Truform which makes games look great, though even the few "new" ones which support it you still have to hack a file sometimes (such as morrowind, where it helps greatly).

[Vampiel]

Either way ATI is damaged by sm3.0. This whole time they kept trying to downplay it, it's just beggining to bite them in the back. Nvidia has the clear lead as of right now with sm3.0.

ESPECIALLY when they pitted the Ultra Extreme against the Platinum Edition. The UE just smoked everything.

I know they can only test what they have, but it is still not fair b/c some site's were comparing the PE to the regular Ultra. They should have at least compared apples to apples.

[Someone Stupid]

If they had a clear lead, I would own a 6800 GT right now. 3Dc from ATi will be in the next patch (along with fixing of bugs that SM 3.0 added for ATi cards). After 3Dc comes along and a few games actually use both features then I'll make a decision. We also don't know how efficient of an engine the FarCry engine truly is compared to other true D9 games as there are no others.

I'll let the fanboys get all excited about each little development and go to blows with it until I have certitude that I'm making the best buy. Too many questions left in my book to call it.

[Yoshi]

I'm happy we have this equil clash this time around. Better for us:D

[Roadhog]

I only read the Tom's Hardware review, but I do not remember reading about a decrease in ATI performance with the 1.2 FarCry patch(I could swear I read there was a very slight increase with ATI with the patch also. Also, Ati just came out with the cat 4.7 drivers, maybe that will put an end to the bugs in the 1.2 Farcry patch? ?? One poster said ATI users should stay away from the 1.2, and wait for the 1.3. Problem is, I LIKE the online play, and will probably have to update to the 1.2 to play online.(I get very little lag problems with FarCry playing online, but I get a real good ping on the server I play on.

I am glad NVIDIA seems to have an edge right now--that will push ATI to put out an even better product, and maybe--I hope--make prices drop on the current ATI cards? NVIDIA has to sell some cards also, and no one would like just one video card brand, as prices would soar, and where would the incentive be to put out much better products?

Keep in mind also, the expense of the NVIDIA. I think most will have to upgrade the power supply also, and the 480 watts and more are not that cheap. One must consider that upgrade in the over all price also I would think? I wish I could afford either card lol.

-RH-

[Rabbitrunner51]

I agree wholehardedly Roadhog on the expense and power consumption.

A person should think long and hard about this as even though I am an avid Nvidia fan and own one of there top cards from the past...The new cards with SM 3.0 don't really show that much of an improvement for the cost ratio..ect.. I am am sure from reading all the analysis that they are really good cards( and that includes the 800XT also),there has to be some future games put out that can fully utilize this..otherwise our current high end cards or the past genration will suffice just fine for the near future.

I mean...$617.00 for a video card? OUCH! A whole comp. system can be had for that.
For those with all the cash they need or because of some inner ego thing..they have to have the best regardless..then go for it.

The biggest overall improvement in the newest Nvidia cards would obviously be the speed increase with the AA and AF applied.

All of those screenshots shown from the Anandtech site review looked almost identical with no noticeable difference to the average naked eye.The Fraps were alll very comparible and not a huge differnece in any of them( both ATI and Nvidia )
One issue thqt Nvidia has that i can see is lighting effects..and this has been cleared up nicelyh with thew newer 6800 Ultra with SM 3.0. This is a good thing.

Games such as HL2 , Doom 3 and S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Shadows of Chernobyl ,will possibly show more of what SM3.0 is all about....esp. the latter game S.S.G.

[Bigjakkstaffa]

Just as a sidenote, anyone expecting SM3.0 to make a difference in Doom III wont be getting anythink as far as im aware, as Doom III is written in Open GL, which cannot utilise SM3.0.

However, performance probably will be better on Nvidia cards in said game anyways, given that Carmack has been concentrating mostly on the Nvidia codepath since his fallingout with ATi. (That said, given that the Doom III engine is based around the GF256/GF2 generation, i wouldnt exactly expect performance to ming on the X800 series either).

--Jakk:t

[Roadhog]

BTW Cdw has the x800xt PE for $459, and the x800 Pro for $389. A buddy has had the xt800xt on order for like 3 weeks now. They keep telling him the ship date is next week. I do not know if it is cdws's fault, or ati?? If one wants to wait, seems like a good price.-RH-

[Bigjakkstaffa]

The problem with the X800XT PE's is memory shortages, there have been limited supplies for some time, but mass numbers wont hit the shelves in August due to shortages on the part of memory suppliers, as such anyoen who ordered a PE may have to wait a wee while.

--Jakk:t

[Vampiel]

Originally posted by Bigjakkstaffa
Just as a sidenote, anyone expecting SM3.0 to make a difference in Doom III wont be getting anythink as far as im aware, as Doom III is written in Open GL, which cannot utilise SM3.0.

However, performance probably will be better on Nvidia cards in said game anyways, given that Carmack has been concentrating mostly on the Nvidia codepath since his fallingout with ATi. (That said, given that the Doom III engine is based around the GF256/GF2 generation, i wouldnt exactly expect performance to ming on the X800 series either).

--Jakk:t

Wasnt the E3 demo optimized for the Radeon series card's?

[Bigjakkstaffa]

The first one may have been (though i read ot was GF2 GTS optimised), back when Carmack professed ATi as having the better performing cards and bemoaned the lack of performance coming out of the NV3x. Then an ATi employee leaked the Beta onto the net and Carmack switched alleigances to Nvidia.

A lot of time and effort (and from what i gather Nvidia have also thrown a lot of money ID's way) has been concentrated on bringing the NV3x up to speed (at one point the NV3x was goign to have its own optimised codepath), to the point Carmack has stated that Nvidia have "cheated" (his own words) in their drivers specifically to increase DIII performance to the point that the speciailist code-path is no longer needed. Doom III is going to be Nvidia flagship application as HL2 is going to be ATi's.

However, given that Doom III is based on GF256/GF2 level hardware features i wouldnt expect it to use the full array of the NV40's bells and whistles, Carmack has stated that his next engine will be focused around the NV3x/NV4x, which we'll probably see in about 5 years time if Doom III's development is anything to go on :eek:;)

--Jakk:t

[Vampiel]

He also stated that ATI "cheated".

[Bigjakkstaffa]

Not seen that myself, this is what i have seen, from the man himself:

The quote is from me. Nvidia probably IS "cheating" to some degree,
recognizing the Doom shaders and substituting optimized ones, because I
have found that making some innocuous changes causes the performance to
drop all the way back down to the levels it used to run at. I do set the
precision hint to allow them to use 16 bit floating point for everything,
which gets them back in the ballpark of the R300 cards, but generally still
a bit lower.

Removing a back end driver path is valuable to me, so I don't complain
about the optimization. Keeping Nvidia focused on the ARB standard paths
instead of their vendor specific paths is a Good Thing.

The bottom line is that the ATI R300 class systems will generally run a
typical random fragment program that you would write faster than early NV30
class systems, although it is very easy to run into the implementation
limits on the R300 when you are experimenting. Later NV30 class cards are
faster (I have not done head to head comparisons with non-Doom code), and
the NV40 runs everything really fast.

Feel free to post these comments.

John Carmack

--Jakk:t