Soldier sentenced to 1 year in Iraq prisoner abuse

[AdamST]

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Spc. Jeremy Sivits on Wednesday pleaded guilty to criminal charges in the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal and was sentenced to one year of confinement.

Full Story On CNN - Link (http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/05/19/court.martial.sivits/index.html)

So, do you think this is to much or to little?

[tantone]

I think Nuremberg, the hearing stemming from that incident in Vietnam (the name of which I can't recall at the moment), and the movie A Few Good Men :p illustrated that, while you as a subordinate are tasked with following orders from your superiors, you are also tasked with the moral obligation to question certain orders that violate the standards and regulations of the rules of law or proper conduct.

If these guys, and gals, took it upon themselves to abuse those prisoners, then this sentence is far too short. However, if the abuse was a directive from above them in the chain of command which would implicate MANY other people who are currently not facing court martial, then this sentence is about right, and those that the directives initiated with should face the most severe sentences.

[AdamST]

Well i agree orders should not be taken without question...if that was so then the SS technicly did nothing wrong...I guess the big deal is not the prison term but the guilty plea

[tantone]

I don't see a guilty please as a big deal. He IS guilty, whether he was given orders to do it or not. The only thing left to figure out is who else might also be guilty, at his level AND above.

[AdamST]

I figured he would plead not guilty becasue he was ordered to do it.

more pic out today, so we will see what ahppens

[Vampiel]

I remember one of my friends (soon to be my step-brother) telling me about the time he was in Kosovo. He landed in a CH-47 and started taking sniper fire immediately (they were literally the first US soldiers to land). He said they killed one of them (with about 10 bullets). They also shot a couple of civilians (the snipers), and tried to use them for cover. After the second one eventually surrendered, they dragged him down the stairs by his feet with his head hitting every stair and kicked him around a few times.

That being said, these photo's only further risk soldiers lifes and what they did was not justifiable seeing as to how they were in prison and were not a threat to anyone. The sentence is appropiate, that is why there is a military tribunal, b/c the laws are different, and they understand certian things will happen in a war zone.

[herosrest]

Compensating these victim before they sue the Army and US Govt
could cause an awful lot of trouble.

l assume the convicted soldiers' victims,
with their own case proven, will be sueing every thing that moves. :(

[werz]

the ones who should have been on trail are the ones who released the photo's, and these guys are guilty of being stupid and taking the photo's

[Johnny Fist]

I see nothing wrong with what was done to those prisoners.

[tantone]

I disagree. We're not talking about the detainees in Guantanamo--abuse them all you want.

What we did to the Iraqi prisoners or war seved no purpose. It was the kind of act that we would be raising hell about if it happened to American prisoners.

[zybch]

Originally posted by Johnny Fist
I see nothing wrong with what was done to those prisoners.

Well you wouldn't would you.

Do you think that if America was invaded by a foreign power, had the stuffing knocked out of it and lots of military personel taken prisoner, that it would be okay for them to get the same treatment that the Iraqis are receiving, simply because they were defending their own country?
(Sure, this is a hypothetical question and would probably never happen, but thats what a hypothetical question is all about. Don't dodge it just because its unlikely to occur)

America desperatley wants to be seen as the good guys, with higher morals than the outed regime, this drags those morals into the dirt, even if it is just a tiny minority of US forces responsible it reflects upon the whole country.

I wonder if the sentence could be changed, so the guy who pled guilty had to undergo the same humiliations and have the images posted on the internet and be shown across the globe by the world's media?
I'd rather spend a year in a cell! 1 year just isn't enough. Even if he was ordered to do the stuff, he still has a conscience and knows the difference between right and wrong. His direct superiors also NEED to get taken down a peg or two.
He should certainly not be alowed to remain in the army.

[Johnny Fist]

You know, this sort of activity has been and always will be a part of military life. I believe that it has something to do with the fact that in these people's situation they tend to dehumanize the enemy. Noone wants to walk around killing people, but the men and women in the military over there have to. In order to cope with that the enemy are reduced to "objects" totally devoid of humanity. When that happens mistreatment and cruelty are unfortunately a part of it. Its what happens in war and the only thing different about it now is the internet makes these things painfully obvious to the people back home about twelve seconds after they happen.

I would expect the hypothetical occupying force to do the same thing to POWs here. I wouldn't like it, just like I don't like it happening to the Iraqis, but its a part of life.

Still, I see nothing wrong with it. Its not like they're beheading them or anything.

[AdamST]

Humiliation to these men is much worse then death.

[zybch]

You just said that you don't like it, but in the previous post you say that you see nothing wrong with it.

You can't have it both ways, after all, your name isn't George is it?

[Johnny Fist]

HAHA...no my name isn't George.

But,just because I don't think its a "nice" thing to do to someone doesn't mean that I think its wrong for them to be doing it. Its a part of their situation that I honestly don't think you, me, or anyone else sitting in their comfy computer desk chairs should be judging.

Its really easy to condem people for their actions when you're sitting at home sipping a cool drink and watching it on TV. I'd hate to think what I'd be doing if I were in a 100 degree desert with these guys lobbing mortal shells at me day and night while I'm trying to guard a cross walk.

[MiKe85]

There was a slight difference between My Lai (the town which U.S. soldiers went in and raped, mutilated, killed civilians) and what is happening in Iraq/Afghanistan is a bit different, but still shouldn't be allowable.

One year for what he did is a joke - Although he did mention names and what not. The only question is: how high up does the abuse go?

[AdamST]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3737787.stm

Hmmm

[PacNW CE]

I find the outraged people tend to be from 2 camps: the Naive camp and the Left of Kennedy camp. There is no part of War that is nice. War is about eliminating threats, not about asking yourself if what you are doing is right.

I don't like the fact US solders humiliated these prisoners, but I am not so arrogant as to presume I know what it is like to serve my Country in time of war.

I am accepting of reality because there is no sense to any of this, it is War.

[AdamST]

But there are rules and laws of war which the USA agreed and preaches.

When those Americans were taken prisonor Bush and all his freinds were on TV 24/7 telling th world how well they treat prisoners and how they follow the rules of war and so should the Iraqi army.

[Vampiel]

Originally posted by AdamST
But there are rules and laws of war which the USA agreed and preaches.

You just dont get it to you. Try telling yourself that in a war zone, once the first bullet goes wizzing by your head, the last thing you are thinking is 'I have to treat these people humanely b/c of the rules im following'. Come back from a war zone, then tell me about how you were thinking about following rules the whole time.

[AdamST]

There were no bullets flying around in those prisons.

[Vampiel]

There were mortars firing at it. And alot of these people were firing bullets before they came there.

[tantone]

For once, I have to somewhat agree with AdamST. The treatment at Abu Ghraib was uncalled for and unnecessary and only serves to detract from the credibility of the US in the world.

That said, I do think it's being blown a bit out of proportion. It's not like we are intentionally targeting innocent civilians to make a point. We shouldn't have done it and we need to make sure that it's not done in the future, but it getting more airtime than the civilians being blown up at malls, restaurants and on buses by bomb-strapped, whacko Islam radical martyrs.

I really wish the people who find this SO appalling would focus their vehement criticism and energy on the REAL wrongs being done.

It's like ignoring the guy that just robbed a bank to bring some kid to justice who lifted a pack of gum from a convenience store.

[Vampiel]

Originally posted by Vampiel
That being said, these photo's only further risk soldiers lifes and what they did was not justifiable seeing as to how they were in prison and were not a threat to anyone. The sentence is appropiate, that is why there is a military tribunal, b/c the laws are different, and they understand certian things will happen in a war zone.

I was only explaining that there is more to it.

[zybch]

I wonder if those involved ever thought they'd be caught at all?
You'd have to be pretty arrogant to believe that nobody would ever see the pictures that you were posing in.

[MiKe85]

PacNW CE: When you invade and take over another country and preach about democracy, it's usually not the best idea to spit on their culture, repeatedly. :(

On another note, I was a bit worried when news agencies started mentioning that CIA was going over there to teach interrogation tactics to the military. :eek:

[j.m@talk]

If it was anywhere else it would be considered a war crime & the Bombers would be reversed outta the garage :rolleyes:

[tantone]

Both Afghanistan and Iraq are better off now than they were before we got involved. Car bombs that kill random people, al Sadr and radical Muslim clerics with agendas, and crazies coming in from other poop hole countries to fight off the evil American's are what makes Iraq so volatile still. Not us. It's not a war crime to kill, capture, torture, or abuse those people. The aren't part of a regular army and therefore not covered under the Geneva convention.

EDIT:
See what I'm talking about? (http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/22/iraq.main/index.html)
The kind of people that do this don't deserve humane treatment.

I never see threads here about how evil and wrong THAT is.

[j.m@talk]

Fooey :rolleyes:

[tantone]

Hey JM, I hear Al Qaeda is hiring!

[j.m@talk]

I'm busy this week :p

[AdamST]

Tantone, i know your goverment doesnt want to admit it but its called a resistance. These Iraqis are fighting trying to take back there country. American TV calles them 'terrorists' which they are not. There fighting FOR iraq. Bush would call them patriots if they wre killing Russians but there killing Americans so there terrorists.

[MiKe85]

tantone: I see now, since they are such "evil" people, Americans and Britons can afford to spit on their culture and make fun of, tortue, abuse, and murder Iraqi inmates?

Democracy, ain't it grand? (Oddly enough, the United States is teaching another country how to be democratic). :)

[werz]

This is all about the fact that it was brought to light and the media sensationalised it, we all know that this and worse goes on in prisons in our own countries, rape, murder and many other indignities yet we say nothing because we think they deserve it, or they did the crime so let them do the time and take the consequences of there actions, well you would have to be very niave not to know there are plenty people wrongfully imprisoned here and even executed but you dont raise a peep about them, we read the thread about fingerprints, in peace time if you were in any arab prison as a westerner you'd be on the recieving end of far worse treatment, if your a woman and have any independence there your murdered by your own family and the get away with it, so save your sympathy for your own prison population and thank god you were never an arabs prisoner.

[Vampiel]

Originally posted by AdamST
Tantone, i know your goverment doesnt want to admit it but its called a resistance. These Iraqis are fighting trying to take back there country. American TV calles them 'terrorists' which they are not. There fighting FOR iraq. Bush would call them patriots if they wre killing Russians but there killing Americans so there terrorists.
You really dont get it do you. You actually think these losers are fighting for Iraq? Your right they are fighting to kick out the coalition (not just the US) and setup a radical islamic government. Thats what they are fighting for, are you BLIND, these people are terrorist's killing other Iraqi's purposely, and cutting off peoples heads. Are you that blind that you cannot see these people are terrorist's.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/22/iraq.main/index.html
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A suicide car bomb exploded Saturday morning outside the Baghdad home of Iraq's deputy interior minister, killing six Iraqis and wounding at least 10 others -- including the minister and his wife -- an Iraqi police official said.
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/TECH/internet/05/13/malaysia.berg.ap/story.berg.video.5.ap.jpg
These people are terrorists. They are fighting to enslave Iraq, not free Iraq. We are fighting for democracy, the terrorist's, unlike you, know that if Iraq becomes a democracy, this will create a huge power shift in the middle-east, making it one step closer to wiping out these terrorists. I cant believe you view these people as 'freedom fighters'. Thats just sick, disgusting, and repulsive to me that you think that. Dragging dead bodies through the streets and cutting off peoples heads, purposely killing women and children, unarmed civilians, and hiding weapons in there churches and schools. You sicken me.

[tantone]

These Iraqis are fighting trying to take back there country. NO NO NO! The ones bombing and beheading are not the Iraqi's that I'm glad to see out from under Saddam's rule.

A question for you: if it's the Iraqi's who are doing this, why didn't they do the same thing to get themselves out from under Saddam?

[Vampiel]

They liked Saddam, they would never want to hurt him. Remember he got 100 percent of there votes.

[tantone]

Oh that's right! And the liberals complain about the 2000 election?

I think people are missing one HUGE factor about us being there. How often did you see an Iraqi on TV or in the news saying anything negative about their environment, gov't, standard of living, infrastructure, etc? Never. And the reason is because they weren't allowed to.

Now, there are stories all over about Iraqi citizens speaking negatively about our presence, the interim gov't, or anything else they don't like.

OMG! They're actually allowed to speak their minds and not be arrested for it! Sure sounds like a step in the wrong direction to me. :rolleyes:

[AdamST]

I don't by that the only people who are fighting the USA are 'terrorists'. I never said they were fighting for Saddam, i said there fighting for Iraq. All Sadr for example is a patriot, he loves Iraq and wants what he (and most others in iraq) thinks is the best for there country. Patriot is a word the right likes to use so u can take from that whatever you want. If there was a vote in Iraq the people would vote in a religous leader. But the USA wont let that happen. So, if an Iraqi bombs a road block, or helps Sadr try to fight off the Americans there not a 'resistance'? So if the USA invaded and controled Canada, and i joined some of my fellow Canadians to try to push them back, try to kill as many as i could so maybe they will get out. Im a terrorist?

[Vampiel]

WRONG the US will let them vote a religious figure in.

[tantone]

Al Sadr is a radical Islamic fundamentalist and semi-terrorist.

We are providing them with a heck of a lot more freedom than they ever had before.

[Vampiel]

Sadr has an arrest warrant issued from an IRAQI judge, for murdering another IRAQI cleric. The only thing sadr is, is a terrorist. He insist's on having his band of thugs and assasins running around killing US soldiers, Iraqi police, Iraqi clerics who oppose him, basically anyone who opposes him, not just the US. He wants to control Iraq, not 'free Iraq'.

If you view this person as a 'patriot' I feel sorry for you, or wait, no I dont.

[MiKe85]

The United States will let them vote a religious figure in? Kind of like how they will have democracy and be able to vote in their own leader, VP, prime minister, etc. etc?. Yes, that'll happen - Whenever Bush sees fit. Bush's speech on Monday about the transfer of power to the Iraqi people should be rather amusing...

A couple of side notes:

Strange, if Bush wanted to "liberate" the Iraqi people from Saddam Hussein's grasp, why didn't he go on national television and mention that? He had to throw around WMD's and how Iraq was a clear and immediate threat to the United States (which clearly wasn't true). Possibly because the United States seems to enjoy funding/fueling/supplying terrorist groups?

Oddly enough, I thought the United States government preached that Usama bin Laden was a bad guy? Unfortunately, President Bush has proven that he may have some sense afterall. :eek:

[Vampiel]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120651,00.html
UNITED NATIONS — The U.N. Security Council has agreed that "full sovereignty" must be given to the Iraqi interim government on June 30 and a new resolution will give Iraqis "a decisive voice" on whether the multinational force remains in the country, a senior U.S. official said Friday.
They will have full control of the elections. That would defeat the purpose of us being there to not give them that. It's called democracy.

[MiKe85]

Originally posted by Vampiel
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120651,00.html

They will have full control of the elections. That would defeat the purpose of us being there to not give them that. It's called democracy.
Are you sure that the United States is the best country to show another country how to become democratic?

[Vampiel]

Originally posted by MiKe85
Are you sure that the United States is the best country to show another country how to become democratic?
I never said that.

[tantone]

Yep. We sure are. Look at what people are allowed to say and do here and get away with it.

[j.m@talk]

Nuke em :cool:

[tantone]

A big ball of glass.

[AdamST]

thugs and assasins

You sound like Bush..another word is FREEDOM fighters.

killing US soldiers, Iraqi police, Iraqi clerics who oppose him, basically anyone who opposes him, not just the US. He wants to control Iraq, not 'free Iraq'.

Killing those who apose him...sound just like George Bush to me, maybe they should hook up.

[zybch]

Originally posted by tantone
Both Afghanistan and Iraq are better off now than they were before we got involved. Car bombs that kill random people, al Sadr and radical Muslim clerics with agendas, and crazies coming in from other poop hole countries to fight off the evil American's are what makes Iraq so volatile still. Not us.

Ah, so they'd still come into Iraq to kill americans even there were no americans there?
I love your logic, man!

[tantone]

How could they come to fight us if we weren't there? I never said that. I simply said that THEY are what is keeping Iraq from being stable.

We have people like Nick Berg over there trying to help out, and they behead him.

[zybch]

Hmmm, a 26 yr old JEW travelling alone in Iraq. This guy is a complete twit. What did he think would happen to him?
Be taken in and given a cup of tea with some biscuits?

[zybch]

Also, it seems that it is likely that he was killed by the US, at least according to this:
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/5/15/22827/0477

There are even links to the video if thats what does it for ya.

[tantone]

The conspiracy theories come out finally.

I've seen the video actually.

So, you hate the US and Bush for the things that they do, and hate them even more after pinning things on them that they DIDN'T do? Please...

Hmmm, a 26 yr old JEW travelling alone in Iraq. This guy is a complete twit. What did he think would happen to him? So he deserved what happened to him?????????????

[zybch]

I have no idea if it was a conspiracy or not, I just went to the 1st site that google poped up (and a few others since then).
There are many many things listed on that page that should make you wonder about the video's authenticity at the very least, and I too could hear the words 'How will it be done' spoken is english with a definite American accent at 46:28 (timecode at bottom right).
The blood is exteremely conspicuious by its absence, the killer's hand wasn't covered in it or anything.
Don't believe everything you see on Fox, the video had enough inconsistencies to make me wonder, even before I ever saw that web site.

If nothing else, the guy was allready dead before his head was chopped off, that would explain the lack of blood and his lack of movement for the 1st 5 minutes of the video.
The dubbed in screams actually start before the 'beheading' begins and end after the throat has been cut. Was Nick Berg a ventriloquist as well?

[zybch]

I never said that he deserved to die, just that he was a twit!
What sane person, and a jew to boot, would wander around Iraq by himself and not expect something nasty to happen?
Was this guy stupid, a 'bit simple', arrogant or what.
Everyone knows that being jewish in Iraq at the moment isn't a great way to extend your life, especially if you travel alone.

Even you and Vamp can't find issue with that!

[tantone]

If nothing else, the guy was allready dead before his head was chopped off, that would explain the lack of blood and his lack of movement for the 1st 5 minutes of the video. 1: He did move. Watch closely.
2: The video is dark so the blood is almost impossible to see

[zybch]

Only because he was nudged from behind.
The video I have is correctly exposed and not dark enough to make blood seem the same colour as the floor.

Notice how the killers' hands are completely white (before and after the chopping, wheres the blood), and not the least bit arabic at all?

[tantone]

Not only do you claim to be smarter than Einstein, but you're also a better intel analyst than anyone at the FBI or CIA?

Congrats man.

Errr, how come I haven't ever heard of you beyond this forum?

[zybch]

Where have I ever professed to being smarted that the frizzy hair guy? You don't have to be smarter to realise that his theories are all way out if the speed of light isn't constant. If you believe otherwise then I'm very sorry for you.

You think the CIA would tell the truth if it was actually staged? Possibly by them?

[j.m@talk]

Nuke em )-|

[tantone]

All the way from Australia, without being armed with ANY real intel whatsoever, you know more than them?

Pretty bold statement. Pretty lame too.

You sure you're not Michael Moore?

[MiKe85]

Originally posted by tantone
All the way from Australia, without being armed with ANY real intel whatsoever, you know more than them?

Pretty bold statement. Pretty lame too.

You sure you're not Michael Moore?
Becareful, with statements like that, people may believe you are typing all of your posts from the White House. :p

[zybch]

Never said I knew more than them either (whoever 'them' is).
Just that the official line looks a bit twisted.
You don't seem able to entertain the possibility that your govt could and would possibly do anything that wasn't completely above the table.

Remember florida, enron, and Bush's little AWOL episode?
Of course, those were all just conspiracies.

[MiKe85]

I also find that it is a bit strange that he was running around Iraq on his own - Apparently he was offered a trip out of the country, but without a way to get to the airport, or something just as ludicrous? There are all sorts of conspiracy theories about the video, it could be rather amusing to make a thread to list some of them. ;) :p

zybch: I doubt that he doesn't believe that the government doesn't do shady things - The U.S. government has been doing shady things for quite a while now...

[tantone]

Of course the gov't does shady things--all gov'ts do. But why fake this one?

The terrorists and whack jobs over there do enough REAL stuff for me to WANT our gov't to hunt them down for eternity.

[zybch]

I don't think we went to the moon either. :)

Why fake this one? I have no idea, it could be to make Bush's extra billions out of the budget (for additional time in Iraq) seem justified after he said that there would be no extra money for Iraq.

At least questions are being asked, its a pity they aren't being asked about some of the other potential coverups and stuff thats been happening.

[tantone]

You're right. Y'all don't have a space program. WE went to the moon--twice.

[zybch]

Let me rephrase that then. I don't think we (as humanity) ever set foot on the moon. It was all done in a film studio in the UK.

God! even when something is obviously a joke you have to try to convince people that you are superior. Its just sad. Dubya would really like you!

[MiKe85]

Why fake this one? What better way to take heat off the whole prison scandal than show what "beasts" these people are - A nice beheading (something they have threatened before) would be a good way to show what scum they are.

[Vampiel]

Originally posted by AdamST
Killing those who apose him...sound just like George Bush to me, maybe they should hook up.
Hmmm so if you said sadr was a patriot, and then you say that he sounds like bush. Then you implied that bush is a patriot. I love how I can run around you. It's fun.

[Vampiel]

Originally posted by zybch
Let me rephrase that then. I don't think we (as humanity) ever set foot on the moon. It was all done in a film studio in the UK.

Wow people actually still believe that? Thats pretty funny as to how even our arch enemy at the time Russia confirmned the signals came from the moon. Ohh wait they were in on it to, even though they wanted to get there first.

[Vampiel]

Just for the record, al-qaida is part of 'the resistance' and have admitted it.
An Al Qaeda-linked group — the Monotheism and Jihad Group — claimed responsibility and said the attack was carried out by a Syrian
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120679,00.html
Of course you probobly think Usama Bin Hidin is a patriot.
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/taliban_women.jpg

[Vampiel]

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/taliban_antiaircraft.jpg
This site is hilarious
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/bltalibanantiaircraft.htm.

[werz]

the photograph shows the main reason certain countries are chosen to be attacked, they have limited means of fighting back, what is forgotten by the warmongers is you cant defeat an idea, be it religious or nationalistic, which in the long run will be our undoing, the USSR couldnt do it in Afghanistan and the USA couldnt do it in Vietnam, please learn something from history and stop supporting lost causes.

[Vampiel]

what is forgotten by the warmongers is you cant defeat an idea
Wrong, changing governments defeats the idea in the schools. Look at Japan.

[Vampiel]

Better yet, look at Germany. If you think that Iraq did not have alot of defense your dead wrong.

[werz]

Originally posted by Vampiel
Wrong, changing governments defeats the idea in the schools. Look at Japan.
when you look at Japan's school's you see the total propaganda they are taught, and it wont include any of the attrocities they carried out in there imperialistic expansion in the 1930s and 40s.

[Vampiel]

It defeated the idea of 'the emperor' is next to god and alot of the old imperal ways. That was my point, plus they have the internet now, so they can learn for themselves.

[werz]

and I suppose you surf the net searching for links to American war crimes?

[werz]

and I dont think the soldier /prison guard should be doing the time for a flawed system, In most walks of life you know the competence of the staff who work for you, and the military more than other professions are aware of what goes on in the lower ranks, if you dont know what the guards are doing then you should be in big trouble and not running a jail.

[zybch]

Originally posted by Vampiel
Hmmm so if you said sadr was a patriot, and then you say that he sounds like bush. Then you implied that bush is a patriot. I love how I can run around you. It's fun.

Who is sadr? Sadam?
I'm quite careful to never call anyone a patriot (certainly not Hussein, he was a mass murdering lunatic with Napoleonic Compensation issues), simply because its only a small step from there to fanatic/terrorist/freedom fighter. You should know, you stepped over the line a while ago.
I also never said that anyone sounded like bush in this thread! I said they might be liked by him but thats it.
Just another pathetic example of someone who thinks he's a lot smarter than he actually is putting words into people's mouths, again.
If it was the 1st time, I could understand, but you just keep doing it, again and again, hoping no doubt, to trick people into believing what is it you are trying to say.

[Vampiel]

Originally posted by werz
and I suppose you surf the net searching for links to American war crimes?
Are you trying to beat around the bush and change the subject? You mentioned vietnman and about how you cant defeat an 'idea', look at germany and the nazi's, they were crushed, sure the nazi 'idea' is still around but were.

You cant defeat a people that do not want change (short of nuking them), which Iraq did want change.

[Vampiel]

Originally posted by zybch
Who is sadr? Sadam?
I'm quite careful to never call anyone a patriot (certainly not Hussein, he was a mass murdering lunatic with Napoleonic Compensation issues), simply because its only a small step from there to fanatic/terrorist/freedom fighter. You should know, you stepped over the line a while ago.
I also never said that anyone sounded like bush in this thread! I said they might be liked by him but thats it.
Just another pathetic example of someone who thinks he's a lot smarter than he actually is putting words into people's mouths, again.
If it was the 1st time, I could understand, but you just keep doing it, again and again, hoping no doubt, to trick people into believing what is it you are trying to say.
?

LOL, im putting words into people's mouth's? You really dont read the thread do you? I will let you read the thread again, and let's see if you can figure it out on your own.:rolleyes:

btw Name one time I put words into someone's mouth. Trick people... this is funny.

[werz]

Germany was bombed and completely destroyed by the Allies in the Second world war, they had 5 years of complete all out war, 50 million people died in the world with all manner of attrocities commited by both sides and the civilian population was actively targeted to break the spirit of the Germans and when the Russians reached Berlin they were given 2 days of rape and slaughter to scare and humiliate what was left of the people into submission and Mogel troops were used in this exercise to maximise the fear. have you any idea what happened to German soldiers who were taken prisoner by the Russians? the few that survived the war and labour camps didn't get back to Germany till 1955. So you think this is the way to beat Iraq?

[werz]

The civilian populations of Germany and Japan were targeted with fire bombs to kill as many of them as possible, Tokyo and Dresden are 2 examples, look it up on the net I cant find it for you because reading such shocking reports makes me nauseous.

[werz]

The second world war can't be compared to invading Iraq.

[Vampiel]

Originally posted by werz
the photograph shows the main reason certain countries are chosen to be attacked, they have limited means of fighting back, what is forgotten by the warmongers is you cant defeat an idea, be it religious or nationalistic, which in the long run will be our undoing, the USSR couldnt do it in Afghanistan and the USA couldnt do it in Vietnam, please learn something from history and stop supporting lost causes.
Still trying to beat around the bush are we? You mentioned vietnam, so I mentioned germany opposing the above quote, that an 'idea' cant be defeated. That would make all wars not winable by an invader if your above quote were true.

They have been defeated in the past, and ideas will be defeated in the future.

[Vampiel]

Also Iraq had A LOT more than sling shots. Before the first gulf war they had.. what I think it was like the 3rd largest standing army.

[Vampiel]

If you kill the people with the idea, and put in power other people with an idea close to what you want, that is what wins a war, and effectively 'defeats' the idea (of course there are going to be people running around with it still, thats what jail is for). The problem arise's when there is no one in that country that has ideals that you like that would be appropiate to put in place, and when it comes to democracy, usually that itsnt a problem, and usually it's the moderates that are elected (which is what we want).

Thats what happened in Germany. Spare me your atrocities blabber b/c im talking about defeating the nazi ideal not other things.

[tantone]

Why fake this one? What better way to take heat off the whole prison scandal than show what "beasts" these people are - A nice beheading (something they have threatened before) would be a good way to show what scum they are. You may want to listen to the translation of the audio. They killed Berg as a reponse to the Abu Ghraib prison abuse. How in the world does that shift the focus away from the prison? If anything, it makes us recall it.

[zybch]

War should never be the first option to solve differences between 2 countries. It should be right at the end of that list.
The US it would seem, has a very very short list and war is in the middle, between 'intimidation' and 'nuke the bastards'.

If the world was full of warlike nations this stance would be justified, but its not. Its filled with billions of people who are innocent of the things their rulers do on their behalf.
Its these people that always suffer when war breaks out over a situation that could easily have been sorted out diplomticaly.

[werz]

Originally posted by Vampiel


Thats what happened in Germany. Spare me your atrocities blabber b/c im talking about defeating the nazi ideal not other things.
and the 50 million who died to defeat that idea is just bladder, they defended there country till it was children, cripples and old men doing the fighting as well as the few soldiers that were left. So this is an acceptable price to pay to get rid of Saddam Hussein?

[Vampiel]

No, but it is an acceptable price to pay to get rid of terrorist's. You said idea's cannot be defeated, and I was using the nazi's as an example of... yes you can.

[tantone]

Its these people that always suffer when war breaks out over a situation that could easily have been sorted out diplomticaly. These "people" are civilian-targeting, virgin-awaiting, murdering, martyr, Muslim fundamentalists who deserve whatever fate befalls them (as long as it's excriatingly painful ;) ).

What diplomacy do these understand? They understand violence. They understand death. I say bring it to them and accept a certain level of collateral damage.

[zybch]

Originally posted by Vampiel
No, but it is an acceptable price to pay to get rid of terrorist's. You said idea's cannot be defeated, and I was using the nazi's as an example of... yes you can.

Anti-semitism is on the rise again, and while this was not the only thing that the Nasi led Germany was about, it was a large part of their manifesto.
You might supress ideas and groups, but they'll always find a way back.

Anti-semitism is not something I find okay at all, but its easy to see why its rearing its ugly head once again. Just a quick flick through a newspaper or 5 minutes of news headlines on TV will usually show the current state of Israel and its theft of Palestinian lives and land.

Link (http://cbn.org/CBNNews/CWN/010204Jews.asp)
Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3586543.stm)

[tantone]

Neither side is willing to give an inch. When BOTH sides are willing, they will have a chance at some peace. Until then, you will continue to blame Israel, and those who see what REALLY going on will continue to blame both.

[Johnny Fist]

Why is it someone always mentions the Nazis?

[zybch]

I don't hold one side responsible for whats happening over there, however it does seem that the 'might is right' is being put into practice by one group and the other is fighting to keep what is theirs by any means neccessary. Both of which sicken me.
Its all very well to condemn one side for using suicide bombers, but when thats all you have against tanks, helecopters, a vastly better equipped army and US support, thats what you have to do.

If it was America being slowly chopped up and taken by the armies of Islam (for example) you'd probably do the same.

[werz]

I suppose because WWII was the most...I cant think of a word, in living memory. How about mind boggling cataclysmic for 2 words

[werz]

It got me so flustered I cant even count, 3 words

[zybch]

Gobsmackingly Catastrophic?

[werz]

very apt, everything else in the 20th century pales into insignificance if compared, probably the bubonic plague was the last thing in human history to cause so much death, but nothing, perhaps not all the earth quakes and natural disasters of the 20th century put together caused so much damage.

[tantone]

A lot of good came out of WWII. Catastrophic would be a nuclear holocaust.

[werz]

to show I'm interested in all views here is a link which criticises Fahrenheit 9/11
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,9643247%255E7583,00.html

[tantone]

Interesting read.

I have to agree that Moore is a master of the sensationalistic half-truth, whereby you get two unrelated facts in the same sentence thus making you think they're connected.

I think he has a screw or two loose--you have to if you really believe that the world is as one-sided as he portrays it, all the while knowing full well what all the different sides are and choosing to omit them so that your agenda looks more clean-cut.

[Vampiel]

Originally posted by zybch
You might supress ideas and groups, but they'll always find a way back.
Originally posted by Vampiel
[B]and effectively 'defeats' the idea (of course there are going to be people running around with it still, thats what jail is for).
First you think im talking to you about sadr, then you try to argue something that ive allready covered.:rolleyes:

[Vampiel]

There's always going to be people that believe moores garbage b/c they are mad and just like to watch another mad persons film. I love how some people say that his movie's have undisputed facts in it lol.

This one paragraph proves he's just out for the money.
But why should thousands of slaughtered Kosovars spoil Moore's box office? What was even more breathtaking was Moore's presidential endorsement of General Wesley Clark – the military commander whom Clinton placed in charge of the Kosovo campaign. Once again, any regrets? Not a bit.

[zybch]

Originally posted by Vampiel
First you think im talking to you about sadr, then you try to argue something that ive allready covered.:rolleyes:

Having a few people put in prison, and having a huge wordwide increase in anti-semetism are rather different don't you think?

Oh, thats right. You don't.

[Johnny Fist]

Why would anyone be anti-semetic? What with all the compassion they're showing the palastinians, the way they indirectly brought us into war in the middle east twice, and the way that country just generally behaves like a pain in the behind? No reason to think Israel needs a good stern talking to to remind them of why they even have a country in the first place.