newbie bashing time

[kakapoopie]

hi everyone, im new to this whole overclocking thing and to computers in general.

well, heres my computer

P42.4 533mhz FSB
ECS P4VXAD motherboard w/VIA VT8233A chipset and
award bios 6.0
radeon 7200 64mb sdr its been transplanted a few times :)
80gb 7500rpm HDD
PCtoys Maxxflow CPU fan/heatsink (darth vader helmet cover thingy)
stock 350W PSU
1 LED fan in back pulling air out
firewire pci card
cdrw
floppy

well anyway i have 3 questions...
1. Ive had this problem from almost the beginning...overheating. right now i have the CPU overclocked to 2.52ghz cuz the motherboard/bios wont let me go any further. I dont have a fancy temp display, but if i shut down and check the bios the temp is usually 40-50C, but allitle while ago, the computer would shutdown by itself whenever i stressed it (playing a game), even Starcraft! and one time it just shutdown while i was browsing the net...i think it was from overheating, cuz i took off the heatsink and it had a blanket of dust... anyway it seems to be working allitle better now that i cleaned out most of that dust. At least starcraft works :). Anyway, the computer still shutsdown sometimes, very rarely, but i know its getting up to that shutdown temp of 60C. I get a blue screen with a memory dump error thingy for a split second then it turns off and restarts. I really dont get it cuz i play games with my freinds who have dells and HPs and they r fine playing hte same game, same settings, but they dont overheat....what am i doing wrong??

2. Second, I was reading up on overclocking and it looks interesting, the problem is that my bios and motherboard are really gay. The bios doesnt let me change the DRAM frequency and it only lets me overclock the CPU from 2.4 to 2.52. It doenst let me change the Vcore, either. Theres jumpers to do this, but theyre really confusing (its a 9 pin jumper with 3 caps, and the manual has a xxxxx where its either a 0 or 1 and diff combinations make diff Vcore, but i dont know whats what or how it works) the manual does show that teh BIOS should give me a CPU ratio to set the multiplier for the FSB, but it doenst show and a CPU votage regulator, but those dont show up when i looked. What it does show is the CPU Host/AGP/PCI Clock which says to use the PCU host clock to set FSP frequency for installed processor. in teh CPU Host/AGP/PCI Clock, theres a list of options that go like this 139/69/34 mhz, and they go up in speed, but it doenst let me choose the higher options, only the bottom 3(the lowest speeds). If i pick one of the higher options, it just goes straight back to default, for no reason it looks like.

3. Would updating my BIOS help any with my O/C options, if so, is it hard to update?

anyway, i read that theres ways to unlock hidden BIOS features, and this would be great, except i dont know how. BTW my Vcore is 1.47 up from 1.45, i just moved 1 jumper like randomly and it game me that so watever. I really dont understand how it works still. Also, my 3DMark03 score is 141, although i got 144 once, i forgot wat settings i had..

[kakapoopie]

oh yea and wats the point of CMOS reset? wat is CMOS? ok i ahve a feeling im gonna get laughed at :)

[mobo57]

Complementary Metal Oxide Semiconductor. It is a battery powered chip that holds your machine's basic settings. When you remove the CMOS battery or reset the jumper, you motherboard's settings are reset to the default settings.

I think your bottle neck to oc'ing that system is your board. All the reviews say it is good performer, but is pretty poor for oc'ing. Don't know how the bios settings are but I can bet you are very limited in what you can adjust. As to using the higher settings, could be the board is not letting you boost up due to several reasons, I would suspect probably senses the cpu speed and will not let you go above it. You also need to be sure your agp freq is locked, as minor changes can result in some pretty strange problems and possible damage to your card.

Regarding your cooler, not that familiar with it, but comperable coolers seem sort of weak. You may want try something else, Vantec and Speeze come recommended mostly.

Kind of strange that your system shuts down at that temp, though kind of high. I'd try one of the above listed hsf and put in an additional intake fan. Also, what kind of memory do you have. That can also be a problem. If it is poor quality or slow speed it can the problems you describe. The only time I have had a system shut down due to high temps, it shut down and would not restart until it had cooled.

Finally, as to the bios, there are arguments for updating and arguments against. Those against say that if everything is working fine, don't mess with it. Sometimes updating the bios can have nasty results, especially if you do not do it right. It can even render your board usless and you could have to have a pro flash it for you.

Those for staying current do so to take advantage what ever new changes have been made to the bios. I have a MSI K7N2 Delta ILSR mobo on my main system. I used to always keep the bios updated. That is until one of the updates caused my system to lock up when ever I raised the fsb above 204, regardless of any of the settings. MSI is good about providing a description of the changes made to the bios on their web site. I now read the changes before deciding whether or not to update. See if you can get a description for the changes if there is an update for that board.

And lastly, if any one hasn't, welcome to sysopt, have fun and don't be afraid to ask questions, we are all learning, regardless of how much we think we know.:t

[Oatmeal]

My motherboard has an option for when to warn me about overheating (set to 60C) and auto-off at 90C (also ajustable). You might have a similar option on your rig; check.

The only reason I can think that your system would overheat that much, is open processes. When you boot, does your system have a lot of background programs in the taskbar? Hit Ctrl+Shift+Esc and click PROCESSES. Close the worthless **** that came with the system (if you bought it), wait a few, then run a L33t game.

You may want to download Startup Control Panel, a lovely control panel-based program that lets you suppress useless **** that boots with your system like office.exe, qttask, weatherbug, etc. Google for it.

Now, check to see if your fans are running. I just take my cover off and poke at various fans to make sure they work. Dont hurt yourself thouching against the rotation. lay your finger on them gently from the angle that they are spinning, and let them grind on your finger a bit, it's painless.

Defrag, for what it's worth. Reinstall Windows, disassemble your system, just clean things up. What version of Windows are you running? Download AIDA32 and look at system temps. They shouldn't be above 50C, and that would be hot for a lot of processors.

Welcome.

[kakapoopie]

thnx guys,

oatmeal, that little program u mentioned is really nifty, im using it right now, it says my CPU temp is 31C and motherboard temp is 42C. I think its mixed up cuz my CPU in the BIOS is 40 something C and my system temp is around 30C. my CPU fan is at 3516 and my Vcore is 1.49-1.50. Im running windows XP Pro and my BIOS does have a overheat shutdown, which is set to 60C. I need to defrag soon, ill prolly leave the computer on tonight. I didnt buy a system though, just parts

in processes theres amillion SVCHOST.EXE, but i dont know wat that does so i guess ill leave it. otehr high memory users are RSEDNCLIENT.EXE,WCMDMGR>EXE,CRSS.EXE.

I cant reinstall windows cuz i dont have the CD with me..,but would that erase all my data?

about my fans, they work, im pretty sure, ive taken the CPU fan off the CPU to change jumpers about amillion times and i bought teh second fan seperately. They both pull air out. I have the side of my case open though, it seems to run better that way.

mobo, also thnx for the info, those fans you were talking about, r they cheap? hope so (that pctoys one already cost $39).I suspected that my Mobo was screwing it up...it still has jumpers for changing Vcore, which was verrryy annoying.

My memory:512DDR pc2700 Kingston Valueram
256DDR pc2100 PNY

i took out teh PNY cuz it makes the Kingston go down to 2100, but should I leave it in?

do you have any recommendations for overclocking mobos for my parts?

[kakapoopie]

by Antec, do you mean this model? http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=674622&sku=V13-2001

and Speeze this?
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=685519&sku=S457-1023

if so, which one would you say is better?

[Oatmeal]

if you can change the auto-shutdown BIOS, set it to 70C or 80C. Your processor can take temperatures pretty high up there. And if it starts to overheat, you will notice a messureable performance drop.

SVCHOST.EXE? That's a support process by windows for other programs. It could mean you have a virus, in fact, it sounds alot like you have a virus. Do some online scans, buy a copy of norton anti-virus. You're likely to find something. Concentrate on CPU useage. What does Idle Process say? 99% is normal. The smaller that number, the higher your CPU useage. Go figure.

Reinstalling Windows would delete all data on the desktop, and in My Documents. Nowhere else of importance, but it would override corrupt files, and correct system errors in your root directory.

Your system is running better with the side off for one simple reason: you need an intake fan. You should flip one of your fans around to take air in (the one closer to the bottom would be better) and that should lower system temps by 8C at least.

Yes, you did well to pull out the PNY ram. That will accually make your system run slower. But you might want to leave it in if you use memory intensive programs, not games, more like Premiere or Illustrator (Adobe). Otherwise, leave it out.

If you're really having problems with the mobo, you should flash the BIOS. it's a scarey process, I've done it only once myself (Dell). If you lose power, or if anything at all goes wrong, you loose the mobo. Simple as that. Be sure it's your only option.

Good luck.

[kakapoopie]

well, my system idle is 98-99 CPU, so i guess its alright. Ill try setting the shutdown temp a bit higher, and yea i do notice that the performance in games especially craps up a ton when it starts overheating, then it just shuts down. But its been better now since my heatsink was cleaned :).

I cant make that fan intake cuz its pointing straight into the CPU fans path (theres a deflector that makes the air go out to the back, but i can take that off, should I?, and theyd be blowing at eachotehr in the face (is that alright?)

oh i think i forgot to mention my case isnt that good. its pretty much generic as you can get, except its black:) (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=329195&Sku=B452-1020 except mine came with 350W PSU) so theres only one fan slot, i was thinking of using plexiglass or lexan sheets to make a case sortof and bore holes in it and stuff....but thats for later, i guess ill jsut leave teh side off for now.

well, mostly im trying to get a game system here, so i guess ill leave out the PNY ram. Now that i know all these bottlenecks in my system...im starting to get sad :(

so far this is wat is killing it i think:
new fan ($30-40)
new mobo ($130)
new video card ($100-130)
maaayybe new PSU ($40 50)

arrggg, and that adds up to alot...

i only have like $150 or a bit more im willing to spend on parts for right now....its so annoying to see all these benchmark tests with computers worse than mine DOUBLING my 3D mark 2001 scores becuase of a videocard, among other things.

Well, ive done some more research on mobos and i dont want to get another crappy one, or worse one than the ECS.

http://www.mwave.com/mwave/skusearch.hmx?SCriteria=BA19264
what do you think about this one?

[Oatmeal]

Just fine. Pull that deflector off and let them fight over the right-of-way. It won't be a problem.

I'd be careful if I were you about that power supply (the 350w). Looks like over-kill for a great price, but you should defiantly spend more for less in this case, or you could end up with some damaged parts. Case looks fine, but you need to spend more. More! MORE! It's all about safety. Consider this as your PC insurance. Get an Antec or something. Mobo might have some suggestions there.

That motherboard is HOT. You will never be sorry if you get it.

[kakapoopie]

:) i had an evil feeling about that evil mobo :x

ok so i have to face the real enemy...$$$

evil little $$$.....right now i have around $200 i think, but i dont want to blow it all on this....ARRGGGhhhhGRGRGRGRGRGRG

i wish there was a multiplier for money....

[mobo57]

I agree with oatmeal on the memory, mobo and Antec psu. Had no problems with the Antecs I have and AOpens are good boards. I avoid off brand psu's period. Had a cheap-o in the past the went and took down my mobo and cpu, gave new meaning to the term smokin! Should have taken pics to share.

Regarding the memory, your dump errors while oc'd are probably from the memory. sorry, but Valueram is questionable in high performance settings. It's good for basic computing, that's why it is inexpensive, but that said, you never know when you get that stick that can really be pushed.

As to overheating, you don't seem to be oc'd that much to cause that thing to overheat. I really suspect your hsf/heatsink. If you are using thermal paste, take off the heatsink and look at the footprint of the paste on the bottom and on the die. It should be evenly pressed down to next to nothing. You can tell if the heatsink is not in contact with part of the surface. If it isn't this could be the cause. If it is, I'd try another hsf, or pick up a stock hsf used from a computer store. I just bought 4 stock hsf's at the local Goodwill computer store for 8$. Give it a try and compare your temps. A couple of dollars for a easy test.

[kakapoopie]

well, i cant find my thermal paste anymore...i dont think theres enough for it..it looks like theres barely any on there.

now i know that the Aopen motherboard is good, but do i really need all that stuff? i dont know...maybe i should go with a cheaper mobo, maybe this http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-127-164&catalog=280&manufactory=BROWSE&depa=0&section=2

im gonna check on those antec cases in a sec, and thnx again

[Oatmeal]

The second board looks just as good. try not to spend less than $90 on a good mobo. This looks like a much wiser choice.

[kakapoopie]

ok cool, save $30 on the mobo, and getting a good solid Abit:)

now Im feeling that this upgrade will end up costing much more than i can afford though.

I mean, once i get this nice mobo, ill want a presscot P4 which will be allitle under $200, some nice DIMM memory, another $200, a fan, $30 and a nice videocard (i think this one is reallllly killing my system) ANOTHER $200......prettty much the origional price of my entire computer in the first place...arrgggg, but if i get my mobo and a good fan, and keep my 512mb 2700, how much do you think ill be able to O/C it to?

[tasty danish]

where you buying presscotts? and for 200usd no less!

(ps: dude the presscott isnt out yet):D

[mobo57]

Suggest you address your heat issue first. Also replace the vid card for your biggest bang for your bucks. For $200+- you can pick up a 9600XT or equal that will blow your card away. You'll get kick a** performance increase without having to do all of the rest.

[Oatmeal]

$200 bucks nothing. you could afford a nice card for about $120. Certainly not top-of-the-line, but not too shabby either.

Now look here, if you plan to upgrade the entire system, go AMD. They can really out do Intel. that prescott will end up costing you more than it's worth. Get a nice Barton Core 2500+ for less than $100. Your money sounds tight right now, you might even go for a cheaper motherboard. Newegg always has a good sale. You can get good RAM for excellent prices. I got a Corsair XMS 512MB DDR stick for $112. (I saw the price go up to $143 soon after that) Now, newegg has even better ram on sale for about the same.

Here's some good quality ram for a low price: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?description=20-141-424&DEPA=0

About your Processor:
Go all out and get an AMD 64. http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=19-103-425&catalog=343&depa=1

You could get a nice Socket 754 for $100. here: http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-138-237&catalog=22&depa=0

Total: $392

That doesn't count your video card or PSU. ah.

[kakapoopie]

ARRGgggahHHHH

do you know if you can tell them when you want the package delivered, cuz nobodys home until like 5:30, so i wouldnt want fricken expensive stuff sitting at teh door.....anyway, about the 64, i saw this mobo on newegg it says its on sale for TODAY only, so plz respond quikly http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-127-166&catalog=22&manufactory=BROWSE&depa=0&section=4

hey, this might actuall work, in small steps at least :)

[kakapoopie]

some kid at school who says he has a AMD64 watercooled system said they cost $400....guess not..:)

hey, that deal doesnt look too bad...,but what should i do with all my otehr **** that gets wasted? if i could sell it....that would make it all worth it :)

[mobo57]

Only thing, Oatmeal, his card is the bottleneck. Replace that and even with the system he has at stock settings it will kick ****. That, without a doubt is the best bang for the buck. Most games are gpu intensive, and benefit from vid card upgrades much more than cpu upgrades.

With all the new processors, mobos, memory, vid cards, hdd's, etc, coming out in the next couple of months, I'd wait until mid year before upgrading. With the next generation of vid cards coming out soon, PCI express on it's way, and the next gen of AMD 64 chips and Intel going 64, I think it will be easy to put together a system that will smoke anything out here today or even upgrade components that will give a quantum leap in performance. Even the processor you recommend is going to be left in the dust real soon (oops, already has). Bet by May or June you'll find FX 51 processors in the same price range. Reality, the 64 3000 though faster than the P4 2.4, is not a quantum leap in performance.

The 2500 is a great chip, if you can still find one unlocked. I bought 4 recently, all unlocked, and installed into systems in my office. 2 are oc'd and 2 running at stock due to mobo/memory limitations. I like the chip, but the reality is 64 is coming, and even using 32, it kills just about everything out there, but the baby is still young. Wait a bit until she is potty trained before you pick her up, she just may soil your shirt.


:t :t

[kakapoopie]

yea thats wat i was just thinking....raeding reviews, theyre allways saying blah blah blah cant wait until the "next generation" comes out...and you know what that means lower prices for cheapos like me.

ill wait later i guess...ittl be worth more bragging rights (it seems like everyone is getting new computers recently, one of my freinds got a 3.2 P4 radeon 9800pro dell....pure evil
...but an athlon 64 will prolly take care of that?

anyway, i think im gonna wait till the new stuff comes out to buy more hardware, for now im gonna research on peilter cooling or watever u call it. :) thnx again everyone...