Any remedy for Company misrepresenting its computer?

[MegalosSkylos]

Purchased well-known computer from reputable vendor.Website claims any AMD(Athlon or Duron)CPU may be used on this Duron 800 machine.Tech support says "No" and claims Intel chipset. Remember the "Intel Inside" campaign? Now this is not one isolated Tech. the Inel-chipset-with-Duron (AMD) processor story continue four plus months and even repeated by someone in the Company's Prez's Office. The "manual" on HDD refers to web-site Tech Support for "upgrade info" specifically "Reference Manual". No such Manual exists on site! All of this REPEATEDLY brought to attention of Tech Support, Management, up to Presidents Office in NYC. Mantra is "*** discourages upgrades" It all but precludeds upgrades by not supplying basic info on mobo, SPS etc (Anybody ever hear of a "Polestar" mobo made by "I-Don't-Know"?).The main Company service center in Ft. Myers is aware of this now as Rep who called me told me he had gone to Tech sites like this one to research "What is the motherboard?" Now this is a Company employee who can't get reliable basic information from own Company. Even when brought to their attention and researched Company kept insisting Intel chipset supporting its arch-rival AMD's CPU!

The Compny is SONY and the computer is the VAIO PCV-J150. (See if there is a Manual for it at it's website.)

Does anybody have any ideas as to a practical and lawful remedy to foregoing? I hate to think of all the computer buyers being mislead by a Company that has resorted to obfuscation instead of remedying the problem which raises, in my opinion, a serious question of corperative ethics.

Thanking you in advance for your help.

[cyclone2]

Description:
What Processor Upgrades Are Available For Sony Computers?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Solution:
The PCV J150 model supports all AMD Socket A Athlon and Duron processors utilizing either a synchronous or asynchronous front side bus frequency. The processor will automatically set the BIOS for clock speed.

NOTE: This model does not support Intel processors. http://ciscweb.sel.sony.com/scripts/web_access.cgi?FUNC=ENTRY&START_PAGE=DISP_HOMEPAGE
http://ciscweb.sel.sony.com/scripts/web_access.cgi?FUNC=ENTRY&START_PAGE=DISP_HOMEPAGE
http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif

[MegalosSkylos]

Dear Cyclone2, Thank for taking the time to reply.

I already read that statement on the Sony support website...problem is the Tech Support when I call it, repudiates this statement and won't even tell me what the wattage of the power supply is, necessitating its disassemble to ascertain.

I know Intel CPUs will not work on this MB which Sony only identifies as a "Polestar" and won't give its true identity although I believe it to be a SIS (not Intel)730S chipset for AMD CPUs and an ASUS MB.

My problem is that THEY insist chipset is Intel despite the Duron CPU!!! This is absurd but even more absurd is Sony has not changed this position even after four months of being told otherwise.

When I called management after being told to ask AMD (!) if I can put an Athlon on the VAIO PCV-J150, the SONY troubleshooter had to go to Tech sites to try to figure out the real chipset and MB as apparently he ran into the same obfuscation from his own company.

Even the Presidents Office of SONY repeated this Intel chipset--AMD processor line. Check the Intel chipset-with-Duron story with Sony Support yourself or call the above Prez's Office as I did.

Instead it drones the mantra "Sony discourages upgrades". Why didn't they tell us this before we purchased it? If SONY doesn't want anybody to use the two remaining PCI slots, why does it have them?

Thanks again. See if you can help me with this problem. See my posting on "How to remedy a company that misrepresents?" in General Tech topics.

[ragtop]

As far as your remedy from the company - unless you can return it to your place of purchase, there's probably not much else you can do. File a complaint with the BBB or Consumer Protection Service, but that probably won't get you too far.

If you're stuck with the machine, you probably have a couple choices:

1. Sell the machine to someone else, and build your own. If you're really interested in upgrades, that's the only way to go. If that machine has on-board video you're probably never going to get much performance out of it anyway.

2. Figure out what's inside the machine and proceed accordingly. Download a copy of Sisoft Sandra - it will usually give you a suprising amount of information about the system. Then open the case and study what's inside. Look for brand names and model numbers on the motherboard, chipset, drives, expansion cards, etc. You should be able to figure things out with a bit of research.

[MegalosSkylos]

Dear Ragtop, I accept your advise which practical in the good spirit it is intended. I've already dony much research than I should have, but I am pleased to hear that SiSoft Sandra will give useful information and I intend to follow up on that.
However, the problem here I feel is more fundamental than having a decent computer I can't make better.I feel a Company has an ethical responsibility to be honest in the representations it makes about its products. Inthe absence of this business ethos, it is the more brazen liar, not the better product that gets the sale. This removes the plane of competion from the innovative to the derivative, and handcuffs the free hand of the marketplace.

Computers that cannot be upgraded have not done very well in the marketplace. Witness the Dell Web PC computer with no expansion slots or the AST Century 100. Sony marketed a computer with two expansion slots, creating a reasonable inference that the computer can be upgraded. It failed, in my opinion, miserably to support that reasonable inference with misleading statements about a non-existent reference manual and tech information that must have caused their own employees to grimace when they gave it.

If this cannot be remedied then there is nothing to prevent another computer company from descending to the same level of, in my opinion, disingenuity and lowering the level of its product while raising the level of its representations. Like countries that engage in competitive devalualtion of their currancy to export unemployment,companies will devalue their product in order to survive while revaluing ("modding") the packaging with no more substance than SONY's PCV-J150 "Reference Manual".

Sony's response to my bringing deficiencies in their Tech Support from the false information it purvayed, the Fax-back system that didn't fax-back, etc. is the real story here.

I feel all consumers and all computer manufacturers should have some remedy.

This is a fundamental problem for our free enterprise system to deal with in order to maintain competition through innovation and not obfuscation and marketing slight-of- hand.

[elroy]

Oh what a topic, where to start? You have run into the same problem many buyers of factory built machines run into, but maybe you discovered it sooner than most. The statement that your board will run any AMD T-bird or Duron cpu is most likely wrong, as few if any companies would spend the money to install a board of sufficient quality to run a wide range of cpu's. Usually they will run 600-800 or 750-900 etc. I've never seen an OEM board that would run 600-1400mhz. As for the companies assertion that the machine is ugradeable [though not encouraged], "upgrade" can mean anything from "you can add ram", "you have more pci slots", or it will run a cpu 50mhz faster than the original. As for the board manufacturer, see if you can get the bios string number that appears on the 1st or 2nd screen when you boot up. [if they don't have it covered with their logo] With this bios string number and the bios manufacturer's name [Award, Phoenix, AMI] you can find what company this number was given to, the board manufacturer. If you haven't had this machine very long I'd complain LOUDLY and ask for a refund, go to the BBB if necessary. If you've had it a while you're probably out of luck. Next time build your own or have one built. If you come up with the bios number go here, http://www.wimsbios.com/

[This message has been edited by elroy (edited 09-03-2001).]

[cyclone2]

Sony, HP, Compaq and many other companies are in the business to make computers not upgrade parts. They want you to buy a new computer when its time to upgrade and they probably will not support your comp. if you do upgrade it as too many problems for tech support along with updating drivers/bios etc which the "average" user doesnt know about or will mess up http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif
As ragtop suggested sell it and build your own, also the Sony site says it can take different larger processors but offer no updated bios nor does their site offer much of any kind of support - so I would not even try http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif

[Explorer]

Regarding the chipset. A visit to Device Manager and then expanding the System Devices list should tell you what chipset is being used. If it mentions, for example, Intel PCI bridge or Intel Power Management Controller, etc well, it's using an Intel chipset. If there are references to VIA then it's using a VIA chipset.

elroy's suggestion re using the BIOS string to find out who it was assigned to is a good idea. You can also try finding the FCC number on the motherboard and then do a search at http://www.fcc.gov/oet/fccid/.

That number is usually silkscreened on the board itself but may also be on a sticker on the last PCI slot.

[MegalosSkylos]

Thank you Explorer, cyclone2, and elroy--all wiser than myself in matters computer! Will take your advice with alacrity.

Now it occurs to me that being that Intel is understandably unaware that it has gotten into the business of building chipsets for AMD processors. Poor SIS--worked so hard to build a chipset to rt AMD in "value market" but gets overlooked in regard to PCV J150 VAIO-- seems to me is a stakeholder.

Still feel issue transcends my own gross inconveniece but speaks to what a manager at Fry's told a colleague: "We have a very important person here ...it's called a customer". The hard-drive 'manual'warns against totalling more than 70 watts on 3.3v and 5v on all the PCI cards buts doesn't tell what the two installed oem cards draw. Let me see if Sony Tech knows...

[Ygor]

Sorry to point out the obvious here, but the Vaio series is all laptops. It's one thing to upgrade a regular pc, but laptops are almost impossible, other than ram.

The socket on the motherboard will accomodate a duron or tbird as far as how it is wired. Meeting the power requirements could be quite another problem. One would think the battery would simply not last as long, but it's possible it just won't supply enough at startup to power up properly.

Was it Sony that said it was upgradeable or the vendor?

[MegalosSkylos]

Dear Ygor, Not so. Deasktop line also. the V in PCV-J150. Desk case minitower says "Sony VAIO Computer". An honest error on your part, I know, but pleasecheck the facts.

Anyway, if the unused PCI (2) slots cannot be used, then cautionary yellow sticker is appropriate. Call Sony. Ask them if the two unused PCI slots can be used. Thanks for the reply and your concern which is taken in the spirit it was intended.

[gyoung]

Ygor,

The VAIO series is not all laptops, they do have a desktop line of PCs. Here's the support site: http://www.ita.sel.sony.com/support/pc/pcvj150/

[CadetStimp]

Because SONY writes their own BIOS, even if the motherboard were physically able to upgrade, the BIOS would prevent it from doing so.

If the hardware is physically compatible (i.e. reading the chipset info on the chip shows to be compatible with the CPU you intend to use) then only hope would be very risky. Check the manufacture info on the BIOS chip. If the BIOS chip is standard and it's manufacturer can be found on the net - then they might have a flash utilty that MIGHT (and it a big MIGHT) flash the BIOS to a version that allows more flexability in the settings. With advanced chipset options available the chances of CPU compatibility are greater.

Unforetunately, high production hardware can be very specific in its contruction as well as in a custom BIOS, especially if the construction is geared toward bying only their peripherals and upgrades. If their statement is true, then it is probably because they had a special 'CPU riser card' in the works that would allow translation between the Motherboard and the CPU. Of coarse, you would have to buy their 'CPU upgrade kits'

I'm sorry to hear your situation. I feel your pain.

I know this doesn't solve things, but if you still want a retail PC and the ability to upgrade then Dell or Micron would be your best chioces. Their components are closer to 'box stanards' and they both do not radically modify the BIOS programming.

[MegalosSkylos]

Dear CadetStimp,
The point is not that I want a retail computer in principal-although i have disabilities-- and we have another computer at home that requires major rebuilding but that we purchased a retail computor based on a major companies representation which it has not lived up to.

On my last contact with the "winning" representative, it chose to blame the victim and stonewall any resposibilty for its own derelictions. This is unacceptable in the extreme and only lowers the bar to further competative lowerings.

I will survive a retail computer but remember the aftermarket component-makers that retail to enthusiasts rely on the OEM system integrators to pay the rent.

Various Apps and technologies are often purchased on the steps of bankruptcy court to prevent their use by competitors only to be buried. Without innovation in the "box stores" there won't be investment capital to make the advances in computing we have enjoyed over the years. Today the #1 and #2 computer manufacturers agreed to merge.

The point is twofold:
1)Competition must be done by innovation--not declaration and "shuffling the chrome".
2)The market economy relies on accurate information in transparent markets.

When SONY markets a computers it must have known that was so configured with power supply, cooling etc. and mobo connectors, and BIOS support and what limitations this imposes in terms of possible upgrade.

Put more bluntly, in my opinion in order to cut costs SONY so configured its VAIO J150 to the point it is all but the most trivially upgradeable. This effectively, I believe precludes the more common add-ons like Video and Sound cards. In my opinion SONY won't tell the customer this prior to sale because of the obvious cut into sales, so it obfuscates with pretend add-on PCI slots and then a Support Site that is all but dysfunctional.

Consistent with the foregoing opinion, a database that says an Intel chipset is supporting an AMD cpu is not viewed as a problem since it is not an impediment to sales. It is only misinformation.

My point goes beyond my own personal situation and the enormous number of hours I have applied to getting what I should have gotton from the start as a given: a Company that honors its own representations.

In the context of the Sony an advisory is indicated on its Fax-back system that does not fax back answers to queries. An asterisk on its website that the online Reference Manual is not online but nonexistent. Cautionary stickers on its displays that the PCI slots are all but ornamental. Hey, its not like any VAIO purchaser would actually use one.

I intend my next computer to be self-made.
But I will hold SONY to its representations

It should compensate its purchasers for the loss of value in not getting what SONY promised any didn't deliver: a computer with two available PCI expansion slots and the Reference Manual that will allow its Vaio-J150 customers to use them.

Either that or keep its word.


[This message has been edited by MegalosSkylos (edited 09-04-2001).]

[This message has been edited by MegalosSkylos (edited 09-05-2001).]

[radio1_mike]

Sony or any other vendor will discourage non-company "upgrades" because their stuff is OEM and very specific; in other words limited in capability. That's why people build their own. Sony may not like "upgrades" but expansion is different. Putting in different cards, like a video interface board or a network card should not be a problem. But these "expansions" are different from upgrades. You should check Sony's website and see if they offer any upgrades for your model.

Otherwise, in the future, if you going to stick to the big name guys, go with a Dell or a Gateway-- you'll have greater flexibility in your upgrades. Or you could contract out someone to build your computer. You buy the parts and get someone to build it.


Good luck and complain a lot. I'm sure if you Fed-Ex'ed your VAIO to Sony USA's president, you might get some satisfactory answers.

[MegalosSkylos]

Dear Radio1_Mike, Thanks for the suggestions but note that modern "expansion cards" are a little more complicated that screwing in a lightbulb. Some have loop-back cables, others draw heavily on the PCI bus in power and generate heat. The package must be viewed, as I am sure you know, in its entireity. Certainly, it would be nice to have a proper Manual.

Perhaps other "store-boughts" are similarly deficient, but that misses the point Sony represents its VAIO PCV-J150 to have an on-line (i.e. on web) "Reference Manual". that is the term SONY uses and uses it precisely in the contex of adding expansion cards.I quote in relevent part from "The Vaio User Manual" on the hard- drive Topic "Upgrading and Maintaining You Computer (PCV-J150" :

"This section describes how to open you computer and insert add-on boards..." It continues, "For more information on upgrading you Sony computer, see the System Reference Manual[in Italics]. You can download the System Reference Manual[in Italics] from the Sony web site at <A HREF="http://www.sony.com/pcsupport."" TARGET=_blank>http://www.sony.com/pcsupport."</A>

Try to find this promised Manual and see what happens!

When you add to this:
a) Being told to use another computers manual in it absence;
b) being told to ask AMD if an AMD processor would work on a Sony (!) computer;
c) being sold (!) a next-to-useless "Service Manual" for $12.50 in lieu of the promised Manual;
d) most bizarre of all being repeatedly told that an Intel chipset(!)is driving the AMD processor despite the most basic computer knowledge;
e) maintaining such organizational dissarray that a Sony representative had to surf the internet to try to narrow down the real chipset;
f) finally having someone allegedly in the President's Office try to justify the foregoing.

You can also add the many hours I spent trying to get this far with Sony, and perhaps you can see why I feel the solution goes beyond myself and reaches to SONY living up to its responsibility to the public.


[This message has been edited by MegalosSkylos (edited 09-05-2001).]

[Psycho Logical]

"Website claims any AMD(Athlon or Duron)CPU may be used on this Duron 800 machine."

Surely you don't think this statement is made without limit. Implied would seem to be "as of date of manufacture" or something similar. When or if AMD CPUs get to 2GHz, will you still expect one of them to work in your present system.

From Sony's website at: http://www.ita.sel.sony.com/support/pc/pcvj150/ (emphasis added)

Computer Interface: The computer industry lacks standards, and therefore, there are a multitude of varying software packages and add-on hardware options. This personal computer is not manufactured to any specific software, and Sony does not and cannot make any warranty or representation with respect ot the performance of this product with any particular software packages and/or non-Sony add-on hardware option except those mentioned in this document. Sony hereby disclaims any representations or warranty that this product is compatible with any combination of non-Sony products you may choose to connect. Purchasers must determine for themselves the suitability and compatibility of the hardware and software in each and every particular instance.

Somewhere in your documentation, either on paper or on disk, I'll bet you can also find this statement. Sony can afford top-notch lawyers, so I very seriously doubt they left themselves open to legal action. Your "practical remedy" is to vote with your wallet and choose a different vendor next time.

The "polestar" motherboard may well be a special custom model made or modified by an OEM just for Sony, and it may not be available for sale separately on the retail market.

"If SONY doesn't want anybody to use the two remaining PCI slots, why does it have them?"

Sony doesn't care if you use the slots, it just won't warrant that anything connected there will work correctly, or at all, in combination with the original components. There are plenty of stories about conflicts with nVidia graphics cards, various hard drives and CD-RW drives. This happens with vendor-built and custom-built systems all the time. It's a fact of life, certainly not limited to your PC or to Sony. The only way you will ever find out is to put a card in a slot and see. Ranting and complaining won't get that job done.

"The hard-drive 'manual'warns against totalling more than 70 watts on 3.3v and 5v on all the PCI cards buts doesn't tell what the two installed oem cards draw."

Nor does the manual you would get with any vendor-built system. During the course of the production run, the PCI cards may have been supplied by dfferent vendors at different times. No vendor provides detailed specs on every component inside the case, nor should they be required to, unless you order from a custom builder and specify that you want the manuals for all the components.


"...in my opinion in order to cut costs SONY so configured its VAIO J150 to the point it is all but the most trivially upgradeable.

Gee, you mean just like Compaq, HP, Packard Bell, etc?

In the end, you are as much to blame as anyone for this situation you now find yourself in. Did you research the system, or go to Sony's web site before you bought it? Did you read every last sentence on every piece of documentation, on paper or on disk, while you still may have had time to return the system to the vendor?


[This message has been edited by Psycho Logical (edited 09-05-2001).]

[MegalosSkylos]

Dear PsychoLogical,

I raise a point of order to your use of the term "ranting" as, none of theforegoing comments and opinions, mine or others , warrant the perjorative.

In regard to "Website claims", a careful reading--indeed a casual reading-- suggests I was concerned with more immediate concerns, not a hypothetical future-chip. You created a straw-man and sought to discredit what isn't there.

Certainly Sony's claim of what you'll find at its web-site is not "without limit" but quite definable. Your quotation of a common disclaimer, only diverts attention from this claim.

Your statement that "Sony doesn't care what you do with the slots" finds support in its failure to provide--and continue to fail to provide--what documentatation it promises. Recall the famous words "check with your computer manufacturer's documentation" in third-party manuals. I think it is this documentation most computer owners have in mind, not the warranty of third-party idemnity you allude to.

"Did you read every last sentence on every piece of documentation, on paper or on disk.." reveals itself.

Game try, though.



[This message has been edited by MegalosSkylos (edited 09-05-2001).]

[This message has been edited by MegalosSkylos (edited 09-10-2001).]

[Ygor]

Mea culpa!

Gee Megalo, until this post I had no idea Sony was competing in the bottom-end desktop market too.

Unfortunately from what I've seen, and others have told you here, this is common practice in the industry.

The salesmen usually say, "Sure, it's upgradeable!" but a while later we usually find out that means in a factory-approved shop only, or within limits we never thought to ask about.

You sound like a lawyer. Are you going to sue Sony?

[MegalosSkylos]

Dear Ygor,

Nope.

The market economy is the true solution to this problem. The efficiency of markets is a function of their transparency. A company should derive a legitimate advantage from a better or cheaper product, not one that fails to deliver on its own claims which in my view is not a legitimate advantage. This only encourages other to emulate, if only to stay even. This is unacceptable.

Sony is a reputable company. I will try again to establish a basis of communication to try to resolve the issues raised.

Thank you for your reply.

[Snowbee]

Regarding the reply about Fedexing your computer to Sony's US pres ---- maybe a better option is to ship it collect to the Main office in Japan ... ;-)
Sorry for all the hassle you've been getting from the big S, hope it gets resolved soon.

[MegalosSkylos]

Earlier I noted that when I called SONY President's Office in NYC, I drew a respondent who seemed to feel the purpose of customer contact is "Winning".

See this post about PCG-F150 [a laptop] (Feb.2000) at webB ox-Sony:

" Sony has set up a virtual 'fire wall' in which customers have no recourse if they are not satisfied with service...Sony is no longer an option with regard to computers as far as I'm concerned"



[This message has been edited by MegalosSkylos (edited 09-10-2001).]

[This message has been edited by MegalosSkylos (edited 09-10-2001).]

[Hawkeye178]

This is off-topic, but reffering to your username, are you a big dog or do you have a big dog http://www.sysopt.com/forum/biggrin.gif?

Kalinichta,
Hawkeye178

[wing7788]

I would understand your predicament of having a useless product info and a company which does not deliver its promise nor give you the service you deserve.

Let's hope this forum will give a lesson to others to avoid such companies.

[MegalosSkylos]

Dear Hawkeye178,

This is off topic but are you the 178th hawk in your flock or do you have 178 eyes?

Only kidding, only kidding. Sorry I don't have a smiley face to post.

On a more serious note, I've occasionally gotten posts relating to Japan and Sony....I have no one in particular in mind -- but to avoid even seeming subtext, I have to say that the problems I've been having with Sony have been made in USA and the response has to be here.

This is a very sad day here, particularly because I live in New York City and woke up to today's tragedy. I am a native New Yorker and this town is too tough to die. God bless America, where we are free to post on the Web.

I congratulate you on your Greek and Beeg Doog just seemed a natural!

[Hawkeye178]

First of all I am Greek, second of all I too awoke to today's tragedy , even though I live in Chicago, I turned on the TV in the morning when I woke up and was totally lost, I couldn't believe any of it all through school. Luckily, we have TV's in the lunchroom, and they had it on CNN so I was somewhat up to date.

Hawkeye178

[MegalosSkylos]

dear Hawkeye178,

Endaxi!

Today hospitals in New York City had to turn people away as people came and waited on lines for hours to donate blood. People are on waiting lists to give blood.

Tomorrow in your community, tell people not to wait for an emergency. And console the sorryful and the fearful

Tell them to be brave like a New Yorker.

God bless America.



[This message has been edited by MegalosSkylos (edited 09-11-2001).]