Apple’s G5s Raise the Bar

[sm8000]

Anybody seen the article about this over at Slashdot? It seems Apple may have cheated at the benchmarks.

[Disk11]

Yeah, I read about it through haxial.com via hardocp. Apple disabled some options on the PCs. The writer owns a MAC himself and is very critical of the Apple posted results. He then goes through some of the hate mail sent by pro-Mac people and adds his own comments. I guess Apple just picked up on what Nvidia did:D

[Swordfish]

it was real fun readin those hate mails....wow... could that all be true?:eek:

[Someone Stupid]

Sounds like the usual games chip mankers play. Just with Apple being so far behind, they had to play too many games at once and even their press releases gave it away.

The hate mail was rather funny.

Part of a stupid mail:

"They are about to come out with Panther. What's faster than a panther?"

The guys answers in short to that particular moron:

"A cheetah" :)

[stix_kua]

This is a bigger pile of ***** than when Bloomberg pro,ised to save NYC.

I like that guys article on Slashdot or haxial

This is the exact address:

http://www.haxial.com/spls-soapbox/apple-powermac-G5/

I'm surprised that there are sensible Mac users. I always thought they were the sour bunch of computer users...It's good to know that there are good people on the other side of the birdge. I also like that fact that he used an AMD Athlon XP 3200+ to compare to the P4s and G5s. This shows that he is not misinformed. As for those who bash him, they must have no real lives.

Apple should know this: Cheaters never win. (but cheetahs do)

I was skeptic about Apple's claims ever since I heard about this a few months ago from a Mac-fiend friend. I'm in no mood to switch to Apple anytime soon...

In other news, Apple's marketshare has dropped to a slim 2%.

[MDLarson]

Oh come now! Everybody says everybody else's benchmarks are totally bogus anyway. I just ignore them for the most part.

Whaddya guys think of the actual specifications? The only thing that I'm griping about is the move to only one drive bay. Granted, it's a Superdrive, but I'd like more options! (I was griping with two drive bays, btw)

No positives? C'mon, if you have nothing good to say about the 64 bit G5, well... I don't know what you should do. But seriously! This is a respectable Mac again! Yippee! :D

[MDLarson]

Originally posted by stix_kua
This is a bigger pile of ***** than when Bloomberg pro,ised to save NYC.

...

I'm surprised that there are sensible Mac users. I always thought they were the sour bunch of computer users...It's good to know that there are good people on the other side of the birdge. I also like that fact that he used an AMD Athlon XP 3200+ to compare to the P4s and G5s. This shows that he is not misinformed. As for those who bash him, they must have no real lives.

Apple should know this: Cheaters never win. (but cheetahs do)

I was skeptic about Apple's claims ever since I heard about this a few months ago from a Mac-fiend friend. I'm in no mood to switch to Apple anytime soon...

In other news, Apple's marketshare has dropped to a slim 2%. I should emphasize that raw speed is not the end-all be-all in a computer (although it is important). Even if the G5 is as fast as Apple's benchmarks say it is, it still wouldn't be the main advantage of the Mac. I know you (Stix) have read many of my Mac-defending posts, and yet you have no problem ignoring all my reasons for being an Apple customer. It may comfort you to know that I, as a Mac fan do not believe everything on www.apple.com [gasp!]. So do I qualify as a voice of reason yet? Please?

Blah. It's more of the same stupid NARROW-MINDED PC blah blah that I get so worked up over. Seriously, I DARE you to say one good thing about the G5.

[Beeblequix]

I should emphasize that raw speed is not the end-all be-all in a computer (although it is important). Even if the G5 is as fast as Apple's benchmarks say it is, it still wouldn't be the main advantage of the Mac. I know you (Stix) have read many of my Mac-defending posts, and yet you have no problem ignoring all my reasons for being an Apple customer. It may comfort you to know that I, as a Mac fan do not believe everything on www.apple.com [gasp!]. So do I qualify as a voice of reason yet? Please?

Perhaps you could state the main advantage of the Mac then? Is it:
1. broadreaching selection of applications to run on the Mac
2. high availability of bleading edge computer equipment to upgrade the Mac
3. looks
4. even low-level-humans with 85 IQ can run them (and of course high-level humans can too....)
5. the lack of different manfacturers insures that no tird-world-chimp-aker can introduce a new less-stable chipset
6. you can keep your brain available to know 'other' things that PC knowledge may subvert

?

[Someone Stupid]

Apple has already responded. Seems the chip is a bit more competitive than we think going by Apple's responses on Slashdot, but still, reading people's responses also makes me see where it might still wind up being slower than what is out there when it could be faster. Apple said everything was done to benefit the other chips, though they admitted the Dell PC should have gotten a better score. But they said SSE2 was flagged to run, that intergers weren't factored out, or anything. Seeing as the file is pdf and I'm on 56k, after a minute and only having 2 pages show up I cancelled it so I can't verify it with my own eyes, but I doubt they would be so dumb to say one thing in defense and throw the one thing that would put them back on the defense again back out there. Some things were tweaked though - but nowadays, what isn't sadly.

[causticVapor]

Originally posted by MDLarson
Oh come now! Everybody says everybody else's benchmarks are totally bogus anyway. I just ignore them for the most part.

Whaddya guys think of the actual specifications? The only thing that I'm griping about is the move to only one drive bay. Granted, it's a Superdrive, but I'd like more options! (I was griping with two drive bays, btw)

No positives? C'mon, if you have nothing good to say about the 64 bit G5, well... I don't know what you should do. But seriously! This is a respectable Mac again! Yippee! :D


:rolleyes:

Th processor is what is respectable, not the mac; neither are Apple's deliberately misleading benchmarks.

Apple :rolleyes:

[Someone Stupid]

If you build a car with one good part and the rest trash, how do you think the car is going to run? That's pretty much my feeling about the Mac. It's a huge price tag for what is essentially a stripped out system in many ways. It would be like a "PC" user buying dual XP 2800 system, yet throwing 256 megs of ram in there, an 80 gig drive, and a crappy video card (for the total price) and decide to pay 2+ grand for it. It isn't worth 2 grand, or 3 grand. If I'm going to shell THAT much out, I better be able to have more than one drive, even if it doesn't have the name "superdrive." What is so super about it to make me only decide to need ONE? Also, then I have to invest in at least doubling the ram and maybe even the graphics card. That would be on top the 2 to 3 grand I've already paid. Ridiculous. I don't see why they have customers.

[MDLarson]

Originally posted by Beeblequix
Perhaps you could state the main advantage of the Mac then?My reasons:

1: It's not Microsoft Windows. Everytime I use Windows version anything, I get really frustrated. After using Mac OS X, the Windows way of doing a simple task seems like it both a) insults my intelligence and b) makes me feel like I'm trying to solve a puzzle. I want to enjoy using my comptuer. (I don't want to learn a command-line system either)

2: I can generally do anything Windows users can do. Except for the occasional PC game that I yearn for, I have tons of options to keep me happy. The ratio of Windows programs to Mac programs is lopsided does not logically make the Mac market uncomfortable.

3: Apple's hardware is reliable. I have rarely had a problem with my hardware. I had some initial difficulty with my 5 year old PowerBook, but got it all fixed under warranty. I still use it today. My 4 year old G4 has had absolutely no hardware problems with it, and I bought it used. My wife's clamshell iBook has had no problems at all.

4: Apple's hardware designs are just awesome (except for mice). Consider the clamshell iBook: even though it looks silly, it is truly a great design. It's very sturdy, and with the carry handle and Airport wireless card, it's made a great little portable internet connection around the house. When I close the lid on the iBook, it goes to sleep. I did this with a Dell Latitude C400 at work expecting the same operation, and was disappointed to open up a very hot laptop and Windows XP giving me a vague message about a serious error that may have occured.

These are four points off the top of my head as I sit here. Personal experience is probably a big factor, as is personal taste. I do believe Mac OS X in particular is a better OS in general than Windows XP, because it's much easier to use (again, largely subjective, but I'd be willing to bet most people would agree, given equal educational opportunities.)

So there's my reasons. If I was forced to name a main advantage of the Mac, it would probably be "It works really good."

[Sark]

Yes, Windows can be frustrating sometimes, but I think you're overblowing the frustration factor. If you take the time to tweak, and fix the problems, you can almost always have a smooth running computer with no problems or crashes (or few problems and crashes kept to a minimal). The problems you might encounter in Windows are worth the faster equipment, much much MUCH better selection in games, not to mention a lot of software that is windows only.

I agree that Apple does a good job with their designs. but seriosuly, you have to question how much thats worth. And finally, why on Earth would I spend so much money for something slower??

[realitycheck]

How is it that so many "computer experts" such as yourselves have so much time to criticize each other? Are you all independently wealthy, unemployed, and/or complete slackers? I think it's important to have opinions and be free to express them, but does all this bickering really accomplish anything? Just because the majority of computer users use Windows does not mean that it is the best platform. The majority of people in this world are slaves to advertising and consumerism, and would rather have someone tell them what to do than make an independent or difficult choice. This debate will never be won, and in the grand scheme of things, who CARES which platform is absolutely superior to the other?!? Windows lovers always argue that there's more cool games for their platform, and MAC users argue that their hardware looks cooler and you can be more creative with a MAC. Everyone has their preference, and each platform has its strengths and weaknesses. Get a clue, get a life, and debate something that will improve the human condition.

[GamerBoyFranco]

/\
||
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JUST what he said! ;) Macs are cool but more software is made for Windows.

[MDLarson]

Originally posted by realitycheck
How is it that so many "computer experts" such as yourselves have so much time to criticize each other? Are you all independently wealthy, unemployed, and/or complete slackers?I'm motivated because I'm emotionally attached to my platform and subculture. I'm also motivated because I'm sick of the PC slanted misinformation that I hear day in and day out. I'm also a fast typer! :D

[genesound]

Oh, there's absolutely no misinformation on the mac side, never has been, especially from apple!

That aside, I used macs a while ago (before and after they had hard drives) but they were so expensive, and I could build ibm clones so cheaply that I never went back, and am not likely to. I still think they're pretty cool, but when I try to use one now I just can't adjust.

I do envy that 800 firewire! :t

[MDLarson]

Originally posted by genesound
Oh, there's absolutely no misinformation on the mac side, never has been, especially from apple!Hey, don't get me wrong... I'd never take Apple's benchmarks at face value; same with any other somewhat semi-subjective claim they make.

One time at work I overheard a lady ask the PC guy why her iMac didn't have any clipart on it. He says: "'Cause it's a Mac." Fact is, I removed the clipart that was on the iMac myself. I asked him about what he said, and he claimed it was a joke. Problem was, the lady would have believed him anyway. Hence, a misinformed view of the Mac. That's why I can't take a joke around here, btw.

[ErnstNF]

I agree with MDL and I'm going to make a judgement when the independent reviews come out. Slashdot.com can post whatever criticism he wants. I read the article too. I would rather wait till the G5's come out and see what happens.
I think the G5 style will probably be tweaked a bit each year. I'm disappointed with just one drive slot available. The performance claim is not why I keep using Macs, it's the total user experience of using the software and how it works with the hardware. (I 'm a Mac user first and WIN user second.) :D

[Roadhog]

I have a friend who has been trying to get me into Apples for years. I see a few problems with them however:

1. Too expensive, and I do not see it getting any better. When will we be able to build an Apple clone?? They(Apple), control the price of the hardware. That is a bummer.

2. Software, software, software. The OS may be better, but what good does it do?? I can not think of one Apple title that I just have to have?? Most are out(in some form), on Windoze any way lol.

3. Some one referred to the great design. Has any one worked on any hardware problems, as I hear some system types are a bear to work on, even though they may look neat.

If the first two problems were taken care of, I would very much consider looking into an Apple computer. I would put up with the 3rd problem.

I do not mean to offend any Apple owners, as they are loyal to their product. --RH--

[GJGJR12]

i watched the vids on CNET, this thing looks amazing... i like the zone climate controls

[MDLarson]

Originally posted by Roadhog
1. Too expensive, and I do not see it getting any better. When will we be able to build an Apple clone?? They(Apple), control the price of the hardware. That is a bummer.That's the number one reason why do-it-yourselfers like you folks object to Apple (and Dell, Compaq, etc.) But I don't believe that Apple is waaaay out of the ballpark like so many claim. Reason? I put together a top-of-the-line Dell Precision 650 with some extra options and whatnot... it came out to about $4,000 total. Apple's top of the line (at that time) was at least competitive. Of course, some may put together their own PC for less $$$.2. Software, software, software. The OS may be better, but what good does it do?? I can not think of one Apple title that I just have to have?? Most are out(in some form), on Windoze any way lol.Developers, developers, developers!!! :D
But seriously, another good reason from your viewpoint. If you have oodles of PC software (including games), it could be cost-prohibitive to switch to Mac. If you have a certain non-Mac program that is mission critical, the choice is obvious. But, there is tons of software out for the Mac. I challenge anybody who thinks otherwise to visit versiontracker.com (http://www.versiontracker.com) and just look for something. Chances are, it'll be there. Now I'm not saying PC software doesn't grossly outnumber Mac software (it may) but that's not the point. I have a ton of options for what I need / want to do.
Here's some of the things that I actually do:
•Listen to music (iTunes - NO Windows equivalent).
•Read / write Word, Excel, PowerPoint files (choice of MS Office vX or OpenOffice).
•Chat on AIM (with a multitude of clients).
•Design professional websites (choice of Dreamweaver or GoLive).
•Run Windows programs via Virtual PC (never had the need though, just listing the option).
•Make PDFs of anything I want (built-in to OS X).
•View Real / Quicktime / WMP files.
•Get my weather delivered to my desktop real-time.
•Use Citrix ICA Client to login to Windows machines remotely (my Father-in-law comes over every once in a while to login from my Mac)

BTW, folks, please don't tell me that you can do all of this on your PC. I believe you. I'm just trying to say what I can do on my Mac.3. Some one referred to the great design. Has any one worked on any hardware problems, as I hear some system types are a bear to work on, even though they may look neat.I was probably the one talking about hardware design. Ignoring laptops (both Mac and PC), iMacs are usually the most closed Mac systems. But these systems were never designed to satisfy overclockers and upgraders. It is fundamental for you guys to realize this. iMacs are made to be small and super-easy. My grandma and my parents have iMacs (both gumdrop and lamp style) and I don't get a lot of tech calls.

My home machine is a G4 tower, and I've since added a 60 GB ATA hard drive to my existing 20 GB, and replaced a graphics card. I've also added a USB 2.0 PCI card and, of course, more RAM. I have a G3 tower at work as my main workstation. Both of these machines have given me absolutely no hardware problems. If a hard drive goes down, easy fix. If something else breaks, I can look to eBay or bring it in. Maybe I could do it myself, but I usually shy away from messing with tweaks and undocumented enhancements that some of you may be accustomed to (again, not saying it can't be done.)

As far as PC / Mac mechanical problems go, it has been my personal experience that troubleshooting the Mac is much, MUCH easier to do. Too many PCs at work have given me problems that nobody can answer (including people who know PCs better than me). The Macs, I've always been able to at least figure out what the issue was, and more importantly in a work environment, spend less time on.

I probably went overbored like I usually do, (pun intended) but if you're reading to this point, maybe I informed you about a thing or two. :cool:

[GJGJR12]

MDLarson, i tihnk that it depends what you were brought up on and what was your initial love. for example (time for a horrible annology) i like dunkin donuts, always have always will. new places come out but dunkin donuts coffee is still better to me becasue thats what i have learned to love. this is same with computers its just what u were brought up on. i've never owned a mac, used them but never owned them. i think apple has the best development team and they are real ice breakers when it comes to new tihngs and doing it right(like windows stealing all the ideas from mac, we all know its true) its just that the marketing and what seems as luck has kept the PC as the industry standard and the most compatible with the outside world. i know mac ahs taken some definet leaps and bounds when it comes to mac-PC compatibility but there will always be that difference. i also agree with someone(too lazy to look who) where they said whats the point of owning a computer where there really isn't any software? u mac users have to admit that there are soooo many more apps for the windows operating system that mac OS has no rival. My philosophy on the mac is that they are wonderful for the creative and artsy. EX: image editing, video, music, things like this but seem to be geared only to these people. i'm starting to get into video editing and my curiousity got to me so i went to check out how macs did with it. i was presently surprised but unless i was being payed for this new hobby i picked up my wallet was just to skinny to pick up a new mac that would handle my new obssession and do only that. i also believe that if it wasn't for apples marketing strategy on giving large discounts to schools that there would probably be no more apple or atleast a downsized small business because i believe thats where they get all their sales. prove me wrong but i have found this true in just about every situation. well now my fingers hurt so i'm done lol

[maje87c]

when it comes down to it, the OS is...more advanced(better or worse depends on what you do) and easier to use, not to mention it looks better, without being bulky and slow like WinXP can sometimes be. The hardware, however, though in some cases more powerful, is also very overpriced, and the fact that you can only buy complete pre-assembled machines shows that apple isn't considering computer hobbiests.

I'd really like a mac, but I'd hate to pay for it.

[GJGJR12]

same here

[MDLarson]

Well, cool. I think we pretty much understand each other. I admit that I was "brought up on" Macs.

But anyway... over and out!

-Matt (the "M" in MDLarson)

[her own pride]

Macs are a dying platform.

It's enevitable as the PC continuies it sets the standards, and the MACs just use all the ideas when they are stable enough to be understood and controlled.

But the PC is getting better and better, Windows XP is more stable now, perhaps not as much as a MAC but not too far of.


One day soon PC's will be as stable as a MAC and more powerful. What can you argue then, to pay more for a different approach?

If I was to bet I'd bet on the PC being the more tolerable system in 10 years time, with all the new interfaces like Serial ATA and putting the memory controller in the processor and loosing it from the northbridge, all these instabilities and bottlenecks are being iron out. Stability of a platform/system is a lot to rest hopes on a future for a machine, when all the attention is on the PC.

[MDLarson]

Originally posted by her own pride
Macs are a dying platform.Umm, OK. That's what people have been saying for the last 10 years or so. Still kickin' - sorry!It's enevitable as the PC continuies it sets the standards, and the MACs just use all the ideas when they are stable enough to be understood and controlled.That's not really an accurate picture of Apple. Apple is a leader in the computer industry. If you want a follower, look to Dell - they do it great. (I'm saying there's nothing wrong with Dell, they just don't push. They play it safe.)

Apple popularized the mouse, color screens, 3 1/2" floppies, CD-ROMs, icons, pull-down menus, USB...

Apple is also responsible for the Quicktime and FireWire standards.

Worthy of mentioning is that even though PCs had USB ports on them for many years, it took the popular iMac (which shipped with 2 USB ports, a CD-ROM drive and no floppy) to flood the market with USB devices.

Make no mistake about it, Apple is definately a leader in computers.

[sm8000]

Apple also certainly had a part in bringing SCSI to the desktop.

[Rugor]

I really want to see a G5 compared to the AMD64 architecture. That should be interesting to see.

At the least, the G5 is going to make Apple competitive again. I'm not an Apple fan, I was put off them by the attitude of the Apple users I met back in the early 80's. I called them "Apple Fascists" because of the way they said all other platforms were ****. (These were Apple IIe users for those who remember that platform.)

Still I want Apple to have a good product, and I think the G5 is a great processor. For current Macs my issues are they don't have the games I play, and the mice are bad.

Still it's a good platform. It's just not the one for me.

[MDLarson]

Originally posted by Rugor
I really want to see a G5 compared to the AMD64 architecture. That should be interesting to see.

At the least, the G5 is going to make Apple competitive again. I'm not an Apple fan, I was put off them by the attitude of the Apple users I met back in the early 80's. I called them "Apple Fascists" because of the way they said all other platforms were ****. (These were Apple IIe users for those who remember that platform.)

Still I want Apple to have a good product, and I think the G5 is a great processor. For current Macs my issues are they don't have the games I play, and the mice are bad.

Still it's a good platform. It's just not the one for me. I can totally understand your point of view, Rugor (I think we've chatted before in a different thread). And I am as anti-one-button mouse as they come. I think it's a terrible marketing decision on Apple's part to continue offering only a one-button mouse. OS X has built-in support for two-button mice, after-all. All it takes is a $20 Logitech to rectify Apple's oversight.

Games, sadly, are a larger issue. But the way I look at it, if I want to see games on the Mac, I gotta buy Mac games. That won't happen if I buy a PC (believe me, I've been tempted! :x )

[Rugor]

I know we have MDLarson.

I can understand your point, and would probably enjoy a Mac if I had been brought up using the platform.

One of my friends is a Mac user and he uses a Microsoft mouse, but I'm with you and would go Logitech by preference.

[GJGJR12]

LOL using a Mac with a microsoft mouse... talk about oxy moron

[MDLarson]

Originally posted by GJGJR12
LOL using a Mac with a microsoft mouse... talk about oxy moron Well... that's the least of it. They make MS Office, Explorer, (but they officially dropped further development) MSN... but the kicker is this:

A company named Connectix used to make Virtual PC, a Windows emulator that ran on Macs. Well, you guessed it! Microsoft bought Virtual PC and will be marketing it sometime in the near future! It's a weird world sometimes.

If you ask a Mac user what they think about Microsoft, you will get a lot of different answers!

[GJGJR12]

Here's the real question.... Why would someone want to:

1. overpay for mac
2. use a OS that is not widely used at all
3. buy a virtual PC program from Microsoft, the biggest competitor so they can use PC programs on their MAC
4. use all microsoft programs like IE, office etc.

this isn't making sense to me. no matter what way you break this down microsoft wins and until(if) someone new comes it will still be this way. microsoft always wins. look at my avatar, i don't like microsoft but i still use their software because i don't feel there is any other way...

[MDLarson]

Originally posted by GJGJR12
no matter what way you break this down microsoft wins and until(if) someone new comes it will still be this way. microsoft always wins.Dude, you're missing the point. Yes, Microsoft makes software for the Mac. But there are alternatives! It's not like Microsoft is the only Mac software creator! Maybe I should have made it more obvious in my MS Mac software list.

Yesterday somebody said (paraphrasing) "Everything is coming back to Microsoft, so that's what we should use." Well, I couldn't disagree more! I don't want to use MS more than I have to. I don't want to use Apple more than I have to. I want options, dang it!

Microsoft doesn't have to win. Anybody who believes this should encourage competition, including Linux and Macintosh. "Microsoft only" will never be a good thing in the long run.

[Yoshi]

Speed or no speed Apple can't compete with windows

[MDLarson]

Originally posted by Yoshi
Speed or no speed Apple can't compete with windows I don't know quite how to respond to this, but I do have this to say:

I'm getting really really sick of this attitude that Microsoft is the answer to all things computers. IT'S NOT.

Apple offers a viable alternative to Windows in many situations, and is at least worth a look. It is possible to get into computers without totally relying on Microsoft. That's where I'm at.

Plus, you have to recognize that monopolies are generally a bad thing. You also must recognize that the existance and popularity of the Mac OS and Linux is a good thing for Windows users as well. It pushes Microsoft to actually improve on things.

People, just... take a step back and take off the M$ blinders.